Skip to comments.Evangelicals Becoming Catholic, why?
Posted on 05/17/2012 4:18:46 PM PDT by Salvation
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The actual sources are carefully provided in the post, and the ^ refers to the previous listed source, as explained in the link provided in “See more and notes here” (http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html).
All good comes from God. It's up to us to accept His good. :) I believe that God tests us - not for His knowledge, but for our own good. Part of the process of imitating Christ...
There is a lot of truth in your post.
Perhaps I should introduce you to Acts and Paul's Epistles. The man himself wrote most of those words, or influenced their writing (Luke was primarily a disciple of Paul, after he was a disciple of Peter).
and whose epistles likely had to be massaged
Oddly enough, I don't remember posting anything along those lines. I have repeatedly posted that there are many, as Peter has told us, that simply get it totally wrong. We see them every day on FR.
then it is not surprising to see you relegate the RC convert to evangelical churches to only be ones who have personal reasons,
You oughta listen to their background stories, not just their up-front facades. It can be illuminating.
rather than the lack of the spiritual life which attracted souls originally to the church.
The tide has turned. The seminaries, after the weeds had been removed and the chaff been separated, are now experiencing greater numbers of applicants than they can handle. The return to orthodox Christianity from the horrible Vatican II experiment has convinced many, along with the decline and secularization and corruption of the ever splintering Protestant separations provides a strong contrast when the two are viewed in comparison.
Thanks, as I hit post I thought I saw a www. in there somewhere. It verified my judgment.
Yes, the tares are leaving the evangelical churches where they are not well received, and going to the nicolaitan churches where it is hard to tell a tare from an idol worshiper.
That is because God’s elect have been called away from the harlot that rides the beast.
Mystery Babylon’s dual fall is not far off, judging by the exodus from catholic idolatry.
And in close juxtaposition is a thread contending the opposite:
You don't have to be asked. Just get a list of Catholic parishes, and GO. You don't have to be married in the Church to attend Mass, and many Catholics and "seekers" will tell you that.
The Catholic Church is made up of sinners. Try every parish on the list, and make your choice that way. Go more than once. Learn about it as well as you can.
Get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and read it. You'd be surprised at how readable and interesting it is. Don't cheat yourself of the experience of Mass because you think you don't belong. GO!!
In one very real sense they are. Biden, Pelosi and the like believe that they personally are the ultimate arbiter of truth. Those who reject the Church universally do the same.
“Youre right, especially when they want to move on to the second husband/wife.”
I do not understand that comment, since Roman Catholics seem to divorce and remarry without any punishment I’ve heard of from their church.
Communion appears to be served to everyone and I have seen not so much as an inquiry about anyone’s faithful obedience prior to its being served.
This is exactly what happened with my husband and I many years ago. Turns out there really was no impediment to our marriage (we were convinced there was) and we were able to have our marriage blessed. We ACHED for Communion (both baptized as children, married outside the Church as adults. it was worth the wait.
“Sebelius (who BTW has been excommunicated by her Kansas Bishop) etc.”
I am glad to hear that; it seems everything I hear/read indicates that there is no church discipline of any kind going on.
Perhaps it varies from area to area.
Truth in advertising would dictate that he inform you he is directing you to his own website/blog.
If you feel drawn to a church, then attend services there for a while and see what comes of it, no one is going to ask for a purity form to be filled out at the door.
Biden and Pelosi would not be likely to become Evangelicals, if they did, then it would also probably mean they were going to start being anti-abortion, anti-gay agenda voters, as it is, they are among their fellow democrat voters.
** Roman Catholics seem to divorce and remarry without any punishment Ive heard of from their church.**
And the source of this information, or is it your opinion? Is it just hearsay — third party?
Or did you hear this from a priest or a bishop?
**Communion appears to be served to everyone and I have seen not so much as an inquiry about anyones faithful obedience prior to its being served.**
If someone receives Holy Communion unworthily, since it is the Body and Blood of Christ, they will have to answer for this sin — and it is not a small sin!!!
Anecdotally, I know of one individual who has left the evangelical church to become catholic. He married a catholic. He wasn't thrilled about doing it but he was not a dedicated Baptist in the first place. One the other hand, I know a nun (now in my church), two former Catholics now going to a evangelical (non-denominational) church, my best friend who WAS catholic when we met who is now Baptist...as was his wife....AND kids...and another couple who is still Catholic but who is actually looking to become...cough cough...Episcopal. They don't count. They want some religion without the guilt. Catholic light. His words...not mine.
But again...those are just MY experiences. However, if you look at the numbers in this country...and world wide...people leaving the RCC to become evangelical far outnumber those who leave evangelical churches to become RCC. That's a fact.
More bishops are getting spines via the urging of Pope Benedict.
Witness the 100% of Bishops who spoke out against the HHS mandate.
I completely agree, but they still choose the authority of their own reason to determine what is right and wrong just like those who reject the Papacy and Magisterium and leave the Church.
“And the source of this information, or is it your opinion? Is it just hearsay third party?”
I’ve known plenty of Catholics in my lifetime. None seemed to get any grief for it.
I would like to see the RC Church enforce these standards, so don’t assume I am the enemy here.
I used to attend RC churches and get communion without anyone inquiring so much as my name (I didn’t know any better). I know for a fact many of us going were living in sin, etc.
Furthermore we see publicly the very unfaithful “Catholics” like the Kennedys, Pelosis, etc. getting away with literal murder and treated like “good Catholics-” very insulting to the truly faithful Catholic IMO.
I heard from another poster that Sebelius finally got reprimanded, good for them, and I hope that becomes a trend.
“If someone receives Holy Communion unworthily, since it is the Body and Blood of Christ, they will have to answer for this sin and it is not a small sin!!!”
I agree and would like to see MUCH stricter enforcement. Souls are at stake with eternal consequences. In my experiences it is treated very lightly at least by those dispensing.
The Liturugy is what GOD does for us not we what we can do for GOD and that is what is missing in Evangical churches as they think worship is more of an act they do than what GOD does. From the Invocation, a reminder what GOD has done for us in baptism, to reading of scriputres and sermons which tells us what GOD does for by showing us the law and need a savior through the Gospel to communion,giving us body and blood through bread and wine.
Evidently that is normal for Catholics since the majority of them vote for Pelosi and Biden and their party platform, in support of their decisions.
As regard the criteria for annulments,
Can. 1095 The following are incapable of contracting marriage:
1/ those who lack the sufficient use of reason;
2/ those who suffer from a grave defect of discretion of judgment concerning the essential matrimonial rights and duties mutually to be handed over and accepted;
3/ those who are not able to assume the essential obligations of marriage for causes of a psychic nature [all are judgment calls which can see varying verdicts].
Age. If the man is under 16 years of age, or the woman is under 14 years of age, then their marriage is invalid. This is an ecclesiastical impediment, and so does not apply to a marriage between two non-Catholics. However, note that in a marriage between a Catholic and a non-Catholic, the age limitation applies to the non-Catholic party as well. Each national episcopal conference has the authority to set a higher minimum age as a prohibitive impediment. Note that, in general, individual bishops do not have this authority (cf. CIC c. 1075 §2). In Canada, and also in New Zealand, this minimum age has been set to 18 years old for both parties. In England and Wales, this minimum age has been set to be in accordance with civil law (i.e., 16 years old for both parties). In Gambia, Liberia, and Sierre Leone, this minimum age has been set to 18 years old for the man and 16 years old for the woman. In the Philippines, this minimum has been set to 21 years old for the bridegroom, and 18 years old for the bride. In South Africa, and also in Switzerland, this minimum age has been set to be in accordance with civil law. In Nigeria, the episcopal conference has delegated the authority to set a higher prohibitive minimum age to the individual bishops. The United States Conference of Catholic Bishops has not enacted a higher prohibitive minimum age for marriage.
Physical capacity for consummation lacking . Per Canon 1084 §3 "Without prejudice to the provisions of Canon 1098, sterility neither forbids nor invalidates a marriage." Both parties, however, must be physically capable of completed vaginal intercourse, wherein the man ejaculates "true semen" into the woman's vagina. (See  for details.) To invalidate a marriage, the impotence must be perpetual (i.e., incurable) and antecedent to the marriage. The impotence can either be absolute or relative. This impediment is generally considered to derive from divine natural law, and so cannot be dispensed. The reason behind this impediment is explained in the Summa Theologica: In marriage there is a contract whereby one is bound to pay the other the marital debt: wherefore just as in other contracts, the bond is unfitting if a person bind himself to what he cannot give or do, so the marriage contract is unfitting, if it be made by one who cannot pay the marital debt.
Previous marriage . Previous marriages, whether conducted in the Catholic Church, in another church, or by the State. All previous attempts at marriage by both parties wishing to marry must be declared null prior to a wedding in the Catholic Church, without regard to the religion of the party previously married. Divine, absolute, temporary.
Crimen . One or both of the parties has brought about the death of a spouse with the view of entering marriage with each other. Ecclesiastical, relative, permanent (unless dispensed by the Apostolic See).
Catholic Diocese of Arlington
What are some possible grounds for annulment?
Among the signs that might indicate reasons to investigate for an annulment are: marriage that excluded at the time of the wedding the right to children, or to a permanent marriage, or to an exclusive commitment. In addition, there are youthful marriages; marriages of very short duration; marriages marked by serious emotional, physical, or substance abuse; deviant sexual practices; profound and consistent irresponsibility and lack of commitment; conditional consent to a marriage; fraud or deceit to elicit spousal consent; serious mental illness; or a previous bond of marriage. The determination of the ground should be made after extensive consultation with the parish priest or deacons, and based upon the proofs that are available. http://www.arlingtondiocese.org/tribunal/faq.php#Grounds
Alsp see http://www.americancatholic.org/newsletters/cu/ac1002.asp
The annulment crisis in the Church
By Fr. Leonard Kennedy
Robert H. Vasoli, What God has joined together (Oxford University Press, 1998, 252 pages, hardcover, $40 Canadian).
The author gives several reasons for the incredible growth in American annulments;
1. There is advertising in church bulletins, Catholic newspapers, and even the secular press, that annulments are available, sometimes with a suggested guarantee that they will be granted. "Some invitations practically promise an annulment to all who apply. The promotional efforts . . . may evoke responses from . . . spouses who dream of greener marital pastures but would not seriously consider separation and divorce were annulment not presented as a convenient and acceptable alternative."
One brochure said: "Usually once a request for annulment is accepted, a favorable decision is given. However, a careful review is made before a request is accepted . . . . A ëfavorable' decision is synonymous with annulment; evidently upholding the validity of marriage is ëunfavorable.'"
2. Most petitions are presented to judges without proper screening. "No fewer than 66 of the 165 diocesan and archdiocesan tribunals . . . decided to go to trial with every petition presented."
3. A high percentage of cases that are tried end in a declaration of nullity. From 1984 to 1994 it was 97% for First Instance trials. All cases however have to have a second trial. The percentage of decisions overturned in the United States is 4/10 of 1%. "What the picture reveals is that mandatory review, and appeals leading to retrials at Second Instance, have done very little to tarnish America's reputation as the annulment capital of the universe."
4. Many matrimonial judges are not well qualified for their work, lacking a doctorate or a licentiate in canon law. Sometimes judges of the First Instance are also judges (on other cases) of the Second Instance, which is not good practice. Three judges are recommended for trials, but most often there is only one (which is allowed with permission).
5. "In practice . . . many if not most tribunal experts seldom conduct a direct, face-to-face examination of either spouse." "Cases have come to my attention where the expert . . . arrived at a diagnosis of defective consent solely by means of a telephone conversation with a tribunal judge . . . . In most judicial systems, attempts to introduce into evidence expert diagnosis of that nature would be laughed out of court."
6.Sometimes the Defender of the Bond does not have a canon law degree and his opinion can be easily overruled by a highly trained judge.
7.Respondents are usually not fully informed of all their options.
8.Rather than considering the detrimental effect on respect for the sacrament of marriage which is caused by the scandal of almost automatic annulment, and the cynicism produced in some of the parties to an annulment and in Catholics generally, those handling the annulments concentrate on sympathy for their clients, or often just for the one initiating the annulment.
9.Theologians argue that in certain papal documents, such as Gaudium et spes and Casti Connubii, the Church has changed the definition of marriage. This argument is fallacious.
10.Many judges think that, if a marriage is not an ideal one, it is not a valid marriage at all, and that therefore an annulment should be granted to any marriage that has broken up.
11.68% of annulments today are granted because of "defective consent," which involves at least one of the parties not having sufficient knowledge or maturity to know what was involved in marriage. The ingenuity of judges in confidently asserting that such knowledge or maturity was lacking is amazing. Vasoli says that it is done by substituting "junk psychology" for sound psychology and psychiatry. He quotes the statement of one matrimonial judge: "There is no marriage which, given a little time for investigation, we cannot declare invalid."
Also see A Canadian Respondent's experience of success with the Annulment process
Its from one of the posts i had saved,
So you equate those people who violate the most basic tenets of scripture and prove with their actions that they have no love for God with many others who, by their lives, show that they have a relationship with Christ? They may not accept the Catholic Church as their authority but that does not mean that they reject God or don’t trust in Christ alone as Lord and Savior.
“...there’s a question about whether this canon’’ the relevant church law “was ever intended to be used’’ to bring politicians to heel. He thinks not. “I stand with the great majority of American bishops and bishops around the world in saying this canon was never intended to be used this way.’’ — from the thread [Archbishop] Wuerl: Why I Won’t Deny Pelosi Communion
Albany Bishop Howard Hubbard says it is “unfair and imprudent” to conclude that Gov. Andrew Cuomo and his girlfriend, Sandra Lee, shouldn’t receive Communion simply because they’re living together. — from the thread Bishop: None of your business (Hubbard rejects Catholic expert’s criticism of Gov. Cuomo) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2679260/posts
[Archbishop Timothy Dolan] also does not outright deny the sacrament to dissenting Catholic lawmakers, but he is seen as an outspoken defender of church orthodoxy in a style favored by many theological conservatives.
— from the thread US bishops elect NYC archbishop as head in upset (Catholic bloggers blamed) http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2711746/posts?page=289#289
Wonder how long they’ll last once they run into the solid wall of higher criticism and evolutionism?
How do you know what is normal for Catholics? Please don’t throw ALL Catholics into one pot. We are not all voters who vote the way you mention.
True, though not as before. http://www.peacebyjesus.com/RC-Stats_vs._Evang.html
In the context of Pelosi and Biden, it meant that they share the politics and evidently religious views that are the norm for Catholics, meaning the majority of them.
It was a response to post 74.
I think there are more than a few Catholics on these forums who sincerely believe that only Roman Catholics can be genuine Christians. For them, the idea that anyone who rejects the Pope and the dictates of the magesterium can possibly be one of Christ's is impossible. But we who DO know the Lord Jesus Christ and follow the teachings God has given us plainly in Holy Scripture understand quite well that we do NOT "make it up as we go along" or make ourselves our own pope, but we love the Lord and live in obedience to our Heavenly Father who indwells us through the Holy Spirit. Jesus said we would know who was genuine by their "fruit" and that fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control. No matter what label people want to wear, if those attributes are not present in their life, they're fakes.
Great advice, Tahoe.
“Christ will forgive this transgression as there are many more and many worse that you (and I) have committed.”
You would always be welcomed in a Catholic Church. Doesn't mean you can take part in the Sacraments, but you're certainly welcome to attend Mass! If you go, engage the priest in conversation; ask him questions. You never know where it might lead.
Obviously, I'm not grasping the concept. When I read the above, I read it as, "You're going to burn in Hell, but you're certainly welcome to attend Mass."
I am embarrassed if you already know this...do it.
You can pray a prayer asking Our Lord to come to you in a spiritual communion. Everyone can.
Very good. My point is that Paul’s Epistles did not ‘have’ to be massaged, and I never said that.
My point in my prior post is that ‘there is no reason to suppose that they weren’t’ [massaged], since there is evidence of multiple versions of each NT book. I strongly suspectthat there were attempts to reconcile each selected NT book to each other by version selection.
How else can you explain multiple versions of each book; further, how else can you explain the selection of which particular version?
God knows what is going to happen. It’s been awhile, in my reading them, for fourteen years the Catholic messages from Heaven and the Protestant point to..are in preparation for one thing...the Remnant is Roman Catholic. The world is close to the Great Tribulation, the end of the 6th Day.
My advise, pray, repent from the heart and confess your
mortal sins. Believe in the Holy Eucharist and any misunderstandings about the faith will fall away.
God has always desired everyone believe the same. He is
going to help (free will is a gift) make it happen with
I put one word in CAPS.
~ ~ ~
God Speaks Will You Listen
...Hence lukewarm Catholics will persecute my faithful Catholics. After the warning, there will only be one church. All Protestant denominations will have no reason to exist. For all Protestants will see the truth in my Catholic Church. Those Protestants who in their pride reject my truth, will become apostate and persecute my true Catholics. Many Protestants will enter my church because of the warning. The ungodly will persecute my faithful remnant because the ungodly rejected my mercy. A fierce persecution will rage like a fire in certain parts of your world. Europe, North America, and Latin America will persecute my faithful severely. My son, the largest number of converts will come from the pagan religions. Many Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, and tribal peoples will accept my mercy and truth because of the warning. My church will experience a large amount of growth in those areas. I will need my faithful to teach these converts. Many miracles will take place at this time. Bilocation and other miracles assisted by my angels will occur. My faithful may be teaching in different areas of the world. After the warning, there will only be a short time given to mankind to repent. If no repentance is done, I will allow Satan and the antichrist to chastise a sinful generation. At this time, many faithful will be: called home, persecuted, martyred, and taken to my refuges. Only those who are not spiritual babies with my divine life residing in their souls will endure those days and enter my era of peace. My son, at baptism all my children receive sanctifying grace, but many do not
progress beyond spiritual infancy. I will not lose any the Father has given to me. My spiritual babies will come home to be with me to prevent the loss of their souls. A soul who does not partake of my Eucharist REMAINS a spiritual baby. Just as a human baby must eat solid food to grow to adulthood, so spiritually you must receive my graces through the sacraments to mature to spiritual adulthood. The body must be fed to grow. Likewise, the soul must be fed to grow and mature. Satan knows this truth. This is why he has deceived many of my people with false interpretations of my scriptures. Many teach the physical nation of Israel is the fulfillment of my scripture. Many teach the antichrist will resume the Jewish sacrifice in a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem to constitute the abomination of desolation. This is a false teaching, not from God, but from human understanding. My son, in the book of Daniel, the persecution by the Jews under Antiochus can be considered a partial fulfillment of the abomination of desolation. But the complete fulfillment has not yet taken place. At my death, the veil in the temple was rent in two and the old sacrificial covenant was replaced by my new covenant. My sacrifice on the cross was the final sacrifice for my peoplesâ sin. I am the fulfillment of the promise to Abraham. I am the seed of Abraham, the son of David, in whom all the nations of the earth are blessed. My nation of Israel is my church, not the modern nation of Israel. My people are now all those who become part of my church through sanctifying grace. The complete fulfillment of the prophecy from Daniel of the abomination of desolation will occur: when the continual sacrifice of the mass is abolished by the false prophet and the anti christ. Acceptance of the protestant doctrine of the mass by an anti pope will be the fulfillment of the prophecy. The temple of God is my Holy Roman Catholic Church. My faithful remnant will be persecuted worldwide...
I go by my own experiences just so you know.
The Experience I saw on this Easter season made me look in surprise. There were 100 to 150 new converts in the front roped off area. Then they were introduced then the full bible reading mass continued.
Now that was just one service for the day. There are many in a Sunday.
In all of my years of being Catholic going to mass never have I seen so many at an individual church.
Now I have talked to other Catholics. The numbers are up at a large amount of churches.
Just so you know with that "data dump" you like to do.
I will go by my experiences before sitting down and reading second or third hand sources. Of course it's in my humble opinion. But truly amazing in my eyes.
Praise Jesus Christ to you! Freeper Cheers!
Hi stpio- This visions Or prophecies are your own? The visions or prophecies line up with what some of the Catholic Saints have predicted. What I find interesting is that the book of Daniel intrepretation with the future abomination in these prophecies.
And as bad as we have it, Catholics are WAY worse. But they aren't my concern. That's not my house so there are no pointing fingers here. I'll get my house in order then worry about others. As I explain in my sermons "The Great What?" and "Return to Your First Love," our problem is we've replaced apologetics and theology with programs...nice stage performances...bells and whistles.
And we want to know why we have problems in the church.
Genesis 2:2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work.
Hebrews 4:4" For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work."
Hebrews 4:9 "There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;"
Hebrews 4:10 "for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from His".
Well, God thought he was just perfect for spreading the Good News, The Gospel - He could have picked anyone and He picked Paul. He knew his heart, his undying obedience and unending search for Truth and Gospel first. So much for what 'man thinks'.
When Mark gets shipwrecked, beaten and left for dead and thrown in jail for the Gospel sake - perhaps he has earned the right to speak about an inferiority complex and one being pushy. Until then..
"Outwardly you look like righteous people, but inwardly your hearts are filled with hypocrisy and lawlessness."