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Matt 23:3739 and Luke 13:3435: NT Reaffirmations of the OT Expectation for Israel
Theological Studies ^ | Michael Vlach

Posted on 05/22/2012 2:27:23 PM PDT by wmfights

Certain passages like Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30, Romans 11:25-27, and Acts 1:6 explicitly reaffirm the Old Testament expectation of a restoration of the nation Israel. In addition, the passages of Matthew 23:37–39 and Luke 13:34–35 also appear to be New Testament evidence for such a restoration.[1]Matthew 23:37–39 records Jesus’ words to the inhabitants of Jerusalem:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. Behold your house is being left to you desolate! For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”

The text in Luke 13:34–35 is similar:

“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you shall not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!’”

In these two parallel texts, Jesus announces that desolation will come toJerusalem and its temple because the Jewish inhabitants of Jerusalem rejected him. Jesus also announces that he will be hidden from the people of Jerusalemuntil the day they say, “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!” The prediction that the Jews will one day cry out that Jesus is “Blessed” is clear, but the manner in which they will do so is disputed. Is this the exclamation of disobedient Jews facing eschatological judgment, or is it the cry of a repentantIsrael at the time of its restoration?

The latter view appears more viable. In our view, Matthew 23:37–39 teaches both judgment and hope. There is judgment for the present generation ofIsrael, but there is also the hope of restoration in the future. As Craig S. Keener states:

This passage reminds us that God does not forget his promises to his people. . . . Matthew places it among the woes of coming judgment, but in so doing transforms this into a promise of future hope. . . . Israel’s restoration was a major theme of the biblical prophets and reappeared at least occasionally in early Christianity (Rom 11:26), though the emphasis of early Christian apologetic came to focus on the Gentile mission.[2]

Others affirm this view. Gundry points out that Matthew 23:37–39 refers to “Israel’s restoration in the kingdom of the Son of man.”[3] David K. Lowery, too, agrees with this conclusion:

The quotation thus serves as a reminder that the chastening of Israel does not mean it has been abandoned by God. The cited words also imply thatIsrael’s restoration will be associated with repentance. . . . The quotation, therefore, expresses a note of hope that the rejection of Jesus as Messiah, which Matthew has portrayed, is not Israel’s last word concerning Him, nor is the pronouncement of woe God’s last word concerning them.[4]

Luke 13:34–35 also holds out hope for a restoration of national Israel. As Robert C. Tannehill declares, “This lament over Jerusalem includes a continuing hope that a restored Jerusalem will find this salvation.”[5] Craig A. Evans points out that a positive reception of Jesus by the Jews, as described in Luke 13:35, is linked to the coming (parousia) of Christ:

The saying, therefore, likely alludes to the parousia, at the time the kingdom is finally restored to Israel (Acts 1:6, 11); then stubborn Jerusalem will finally bless the Messiah. But not until then will the inhabitants be gathered together under the wings of Messiah’s care and protection. The expectation is that someday, but not now, the Jewish nation will respond and be reconciled to the Messiah.[6]

John Koenig also links a joyful welcome of Jesus by the Jews with the parousiaand the restoration of Israel:

But this means that the prophecy recorded in Lk. 13:35 must look forward to some other future event. This other is probably Jesus’ Parousia descent toJerusalem as Son of Man Messiah in the Kingdom of God (Lk. 21:27; Acts1:11). On that day Jerusalemites will repent of their blindness and welcome Jesus with blessings. Thereafter the final restoration of Israel can proceed.[7]

Hope for a future restoration of Israel in Luke 13:35 can be supported by other statements in Luke and Acts. As Darrell Bock says:

It is debated whether Luke by this remark holds out hope for Israel’s future. Luke 21:24 and the speech of Acts 3 show that Jesus and the church continued to extend hope to Israel. They believed that God would restore the nation in the end. In fact, the NT suggests that such a response will precede Christ’s return, thus Luke’s later reference to the current period as “the time of the Gentiles.”[8]

We hold, therefore, that the exclamation, “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!” is a joyful cry of a repentant Israel undergoing restoration and not the woeful cry of a condemned Israel undergoing judgment. Further evidence for this can be found in the Old Testament context of this statement. This exclamation that is referred to in Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35 is taken from Psalm 118:26. Psalm 118 is a psalm of thanksgiving for God’s saving goodness. According to Evans, “The rabbis understood Ps 118:26 in reference to the day of redemption.”[9]

The joyful context of Psalm 118 makes it more likely that the quotation of this psalm in Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35 refers to a joyful deliverance of a restored Israel. Noting that the Jews regarded Psalm 118 as a messianic psalm of praise, Saucy declares, “It is far more likely that this statement following the pronouncement of judgment is to be taken as a promise of a joyful greeting of their Messiah by the people of Jerusalem.”[10] According to Larry R. Helyer, “It is hard not to see here a reference to the future conversion of Israel (cf. Rom11:25–26). The suggestion that the cry is a reluctant admission of sovereignty has little to commend it, especially in view of the context of the quotation from Ps 118:26.”[11] Bock, too, argues against the idea that the exclamation of the Jews is a forced recognition of Jesus: “Still another faulty explanation is that Jews will be forced to recognize him at the second coming. . . .The quotation from Ps. 118 is positive and anticipates a positive recognition, not a forced one.”[12]

This interpretation, though, has come under criticism from supersessionists. R.T. France, for example, argues that there are “two factors” against the view that Jesus is speaking of a national salvation of Israel. First, he claims that the statement “until you say” in Matthew 23:39 is “expressed in Greek as an indefinite possibility rather than as a firm prediction.”[13] Thus, “This is the condition on which they will see him again; but there is no promise that the condition will be fulfilled.”[14] Second, France believes the judgment context of Matthew 23 and 24 argues against the idea that Jesus was speaking of a future hope for the nation Israel:

Secondly, a prediction of future repentance would be quite out of keeping not only with the flow of thought throughout ch. 23 (of which this is the climax) and ch. 24 which deals with judgment to come, but also with the perspective of the Gospel as a whole, which has repeatedly spoken of Israel’s last chance, and of a new international people of God (8:11–12; 12:38–45; 21:40–43; 22:7; 23:32–36; etc.).[15]

France’s points are not convincing. Supersessionists often stress the judgment context of Matthew 23:39 as evidence that Jesus was not speaking of a future salvation or restoration of Israel. Yet while the context heavily speaks of judgment, this does not logically mean that that there cannot be hope for Israelafter a period of judgment. As Goppelt writes, Matthew “may in fact have had in mind a saving encounter of Israel with the returning One at the parousia in23:39.”[16] Lange, too, states that Matthew 23:39 “is an intimation of a future conversion.”[17]

A glimmer of hope can be offered in the midst of somber predictions of judgment. Thus, the conclusion here is that Matthew 23:37–39 and the parallel teaching in Luke 13:35 foretell a day when the inhabitants of Jerusalem will joyfully recognize their king. As Donald Senior states, “In Matthew’s perspective, the rejection of Jesus by the leaders is indeed a grave sin, one that brings divine judgment. Yet the story of God’s relationship to Israel is not concluded, and the day will come when Jerusalem will again receive its Messiah with shouts of praise.”[18] Ladd, too, points out that Matthew 23:37–39 is evidence that “Israel is yet to be saved.”[19] It is also evidence that Israel’s rejection is not final:

This rejection [of Israel] is not final and ultimate; the day will come whenIsrael will say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’ (vv. 37–39). The Kingdom of God is not taken from the Jews that they might be forever abandoned; ‘all Israel’ is yet to be saved and brought within the redemptive purpose of God.[20]

We conclude, therefore, that Matthew 23:37-39 and Luke 13:34-35 offer additional New Testament evidence for the restoration of the nation Israel.

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[1] Those who assert that these texts are consistent with the idea of a restoration of national Israel include: Robert H. Gundry, Matthew: A Commentary on His Literary and Theological Arts (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1982), 394; Craig S. Keener, Matthew, IVPNTCS, vol. 1, ed. Grant R. Osborne (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1997), 341; Lowery, “Evidence from Matthew,” 179–80; Robert C. Tannehill, Luke, ANTC (Nashville: Abingdon, 1996), 226–27; Craig A. Evans, “Prophecy and Polemic: ‘Jews in Luke’s Scriptural Apologetic,’” inLuke and Scripture: The Function of Sacred Tradition in Luke-Acts, eds. Craig A. Evans and James A. Sanders (Minneapolis: Fortress, 1993), 179; John Koening, Jews and Christians in Dialogue: New Testament Foundations (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1979), 11–12; Darrell L. Bock, Luke 9:51–24:53, BECNT, vol. 2 (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996), 1251; Robert L. Saucy,The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism: The Interface Between Dispensational & Nondispensational Theology (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1993), 265; Larry R. Helyer, “Luke and the Restoration of Israel,” Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society 36:3 (1993): 324–25.

[2] Keener, Matthew, 341.

[3] Gundry, Matthew, 394.

[4] Lowery, “Evidence from Matthew,” 179–80.

[5] Tannehill, Luke, 226–27.

[6] Evans, “Prophecy and Polemic,” 179.

[7] Koening, Jews and Christians in Dialogue, 11–12. Emphasis in original.

[8] Bock, Luke, 2:1251.

[9] Evans, “Prophecy and Polemic,” 179, n. 33.

[10] Saucy, The Case for Progressive Dispensationalism, 265.

[11] Helyer, “Luke and the Restoration of Israel,” 324–25. Although not a nonsupersessionist, Donald A. Hagner states, “It is possible to link the future acceptance of Christ implied in the words of Ps 118:26 to the eschatological salvation of Israel referred to by Paul in Rom 11:26, 31.” Donald A. Hagner, Matthew 14–28, WBC, vol. 33b (Dallas: Word, 1995), 681.

[12] Bock, Luke, 2:1251. Mark Elliott claims the message of Matthew 23:39 and Luke 13:35 “implies the warm reception of the Son of Man by Israel at some future date.” Mark Elliott, “Israel,” in Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, eds. Joel B. Green, Scot McKnight, and I. Howard Marshall (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 1992), 363.

[13] France, Matthew, 332.

[14] Ibid.

[15] Ibid., 333. Commenting on Matt 23:37–39, J. C. Fenton states that Israel’s judgment is irreversible: “So judgment will come upon them [people of Jerusalem]; Jesus himself will not be seen again by the crowds until he comes in glory, and then it will be too late for them to repent.” J. C. Fenton, Saint Matthew, WPC (Philadelphia: Westminster, 1963), 377. Commenting on Matt 23:39, Donald A. Hagner states, “It is possible to link the future acceptance of Christ implied in the words of Ps 118:26 to the eschatological salvation of Israel referred to by Paul in Romans 11:26, 31, but this probably goes will beyond what Matthew and his readers understood by this concluding statement.” Donald A. Hagner,Matthew 14–28, WBC, vol. 33b (Dallas: Word, 1995), 681. See also Douglas R. A. Hare,Matthew: Interpretation, a Bible Commentary for Teaching and Preaching (Louisville, KY: John Knox, 1993), 272.

[16] Leonhard Goppelt, Theology of the New Testament: The Variety and Unity of the Apostolic Witness to Christ, vol. 2, trans. John Alsup (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1982), 231, n. 29. Emphasis in original.

[17] Lange, Matthew, 415. Stanley Toussaint notes the significance of the word, “until” in 23:39 when he writes, “It is extremely important for one to note that Christ’s rejection of Israel is not an eternal one. The word “until” (ew]s) of verse thirty-nine together with the following statement affirms the fact that Christ will come again to a repentant nation.” Stanley D. Toussaint, Behold the King: A Study of Matthew (Oregon: Multnomah Press, 1980), 265–66.

[18] Donald Senior, Matthew, ANTC (Nashville: Abingdon, 1998), 264.

[19] George Eldon Ladd, The Gospel of the Kingdom: Popular Expositions on theKingdom of God (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1959), 120.

[20] George Eldon Ladd, “Matthew,” The Biblical Expositor, ed. Carl F. Henry (Philadelphia: Holman, 1960), 847. According to Kaiser, “While the emphasis falls on the expected judgment (being ‘desolate’ and being ‘trampled on’), what is taken as a divine matter of fact is that the OT promises to Israel are still in the picture?Jerusalem will belong to Israel once the ‘times of the Gentiles’ have ended and once Israel greets ‘he who comes’ (an obvious use of OT terminology for the Messiah) with blessing rather than curses.” Walter C. Kaiser, “Kingdom Promises as Spiritual and National,” in Continuity and Discontinuity:Perspectives on the Relationship Between the Old and New Testaments, ed. John S. Feinberg (Wheaton, IL: Crossway, 1988), 301.


TOPICS: Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant
KEYWORDS: replacementtheology; supersessionism
This rejection [of Israel] is not final and ultimate; the day will come whenIsrael will say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’ (vv. 37–39). The Kingdom of God is not taken from the Jews that they might be forever abandoned; ‘all Israel’ is yet to be saved and brought within the redemptive purpose of God.[20]
1 posted on 05/22/2012 2:27:29 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: Alamo-Girl; Amityschild; AngieGal; AnimalLover; Ann de IL; aposiopetic; aragorn; auggy; ...

Ping


2 posted on 05/22/2012 2:29:24 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights

Thanks.

Saving to ISRAEL file.


3 posted on 05/22/2012 2:34:20 PM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: wmfights
The Kingdom of God is not taken from the Jews that they might be forever abandoned; ‘all Israel’ (Romans 11:26) is yet to be saved and brought within the redemptive purpose of God.

I do not think so.

Paul goes to great lengths to describe what "all Israel" encompasses in Romans 9:6-8:

“(6) Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not “all Israel”, which are “of Israel”: (7) Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. (8) That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”

This is rather cryptic. Galatians 4:22-31 helps make sense of this. It says that Ishmael was born after the flesh, but Isaac was through promise “which things are symbolic”. They represent two covenants (1) Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage and corresponds to Jerusalem "that now is"; and (2) Jerusalem "above" which is free. We then learn that those, who believe in Jesus Christ, are children of the promise, as Isaac was. And that those born after the flesh persecute those who are "born after the spirit". [To wit: The non-believing Jews persecuted and martyred the early Christians (Jew and Gentile).]

So, "all Israel" consists of believing Gentiles and believing Jews. It does not consist of non-believers, regardless of their fleshly descent. ("Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children." And "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.").

Paul then describes how believers can show mercy to the disobedient [Jew]: “For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you, they may also obtain mercy." (Romans 11:30,31) “But the scriptures have confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” (Galatians 3:22)

But now we are to understand that "all Israel" in Romans 11:26 is every physical descendant of Israel. Hold on. It did not mean this 2 chapters earlier. What's more, in Mark 3:22-30 the scribes from Jerusalem committed an unforgivable sin, "blaspheming against the Holy Spirit". These members of Israel will NOT be saved, ever. Consequently, only "some of Israel" can be saved, not all. Therefore, the phrase "all Israel" cannot possibly refer to whom this article says it does. It refers to the same group in Romans 9:6—the saints.

4 posted on 05/22/2012 5:10:08 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Mrs.Z
Your welcome.

A keyword search of Supersessionism or Replacement Theology should give you all the other threads I posted on this topic so far.

5 posted on 05/22/2012 5:13:36 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights

Jesus gave the illustration of the vineyard in Matthew 21:33-43, the meaning of which Jesus made clear when he concluded with saying the kingdom would be taken away from that nation of Israel and given to a nation producing its fruits.

That “nation” Peter spoke to in his first letter. Is God now going to take the kingdom back and return to that apostate nation of fleshly Israel? Hardly.

The king/priests were to rule from heaven not the abandoned Jerusalem.


6 posted on 05/22/2012 5:16:10 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: wmfights
Jesus also announces that he will be hidden from the people of Jerusalemuntil the day they say, “BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!” The prediction that the Jews will one day cry out that Jesus is “Blessed” is clear, but the manner in which they will do so is disputed.

Didn't this already happened?

Mat 21:9 And the crowds that went before him and that followed him were shouting, "Hosanna to the Son of David! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord! Hosanna in the highest!"

7 posted on 05/22/2012 5:26:54 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: nonsporting
I do not think so.

I'm not surprised.

So, "all Israel" consists of believing Gentiles and believing Jews. It does not consist of non-believers, regardless of their fleshly descent. ("Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children." And "They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God.").

Maybe a closer review of the posted thread will help you see that what you are claiming is not what is written.

In this article the author is clearly showing that the verses noted indicate Israel will be redeemed.

The problem for the Replacement Theologists is these verses indicate the Lord is not done with Israel and for Replacement Theology to be correct the Lord must be done with them.

I would point you to this part of the passage the author is discussing:

v.39...you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

8 posted on 05/22/2012 5:33:43 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: HarleyD
This verses preceeds Jesus' last major discourse which also happens to be His most prophetic.

Matt 23:39...You shall see Me no more till you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' "

Jesus then left the temple and proceeded to teach the disciples about the Tribulation.

It seems clear that Jesus is not talking about a past event, as you pointed to in noting Matt. 21:9, but is pointing to when Israel will come to recognize Jesus as their Messiah and the Son of God. Supersessionism requires the complete separation of Israel from the LORD and the passage the author is quoting indicates that is not the case.

9 posted on 05/22/2012 5:51:34 PM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights
The problem for the Replacement Theologists is these verses indicate the Lord is not done with Israel and for Replacement Theology to be correct the Lord must be done with them.

I wonder if such a boogieman as you-all keep talking about, really exists.

And, I wonder, "is there a problem with the acoustics in here?"* What does it take to get the F.R. dispensational cacophonous chorus to understand what we're getting at?

See my post here. And, get the Ridderbos book Vlach references ("used from $6.48"!), and read the chapter that Vlach carefully picks his quote from, on "the Church as the People of God". He deals with everything you're asking about.

*A notable quip from Thomas Sowell on Bill Buckley's old Firing Line Program, after repeating an answer twice that his interloquter (I think, J. K. Galbreath) didn't seem to understand.

10 posted on 05/22/2012 6:25:01 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: wmfights

Thanks for the ping!


11 posted on 05/22/2012 8:32:30 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: wmfights
Almighty God keeps ALL of His promises. Some are conditional and some are UN-conditional. He WILL restore Israel, the nation, the people, and they WILL look upon Him whom they have pierced and then ALL Israel will be saved. In God's timing, He will be their God and they will be His people and their sins and iniquities He will remember no more.
12 posted on 05/22/2012 10:50:36 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: wmfights
LOL!!!

It never fails, does it? No matter how many times they are proven wrong, no matter how many times their demonic doctrine is shot to bits, no matter how many times it is proven that they have not one shred of Scripture to support their false beliefs, they keep going like the Energizer Bunny.

The bottom line is that if the Bible as God wrote it is true, then replacement theologists and all others who curse God's chosen people and deny Scripture are doomed to eternity separated from God. It is desperation that makes them surface on each and every thread to deny that proves that God has future plans for His people and His nation and that God will keep His promises to His people, and that He is not finished with Israel or the Jews.

Replacement theologists claim that God lies, that God deceives, and that God does not keep His promises, which, of course, includes the promise He made to those who trust in Him as Savior. Just like Satan they deny Scripture and they will suffer Satan's fate.

Thank you, wmfights, for your perseverance in getting Biblical truth to those who will read it and accept it. And when the non-Christians come on the thread to deny Christ and His word, know that you are doing something right or Satan would not be trying to silence you.

13 posted on 05/23/2012 2:24:57 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: boatbums

Amen!

Replacement Theology opens the door for many of the cults and false religions we see proclaiming “they” are the ones replacing Israel...and or the restoration.

We now see rumblings of those riding the edge of Replacement Theology with America as the New Israel under the disguise of Patriotism and referencing the Founding Fathers as operating under supposed “Covenants” transfered from Israel to our Founding Fathers.

This, of course, at a time when our nation is weak so it will appeal to the Patriotic heart. It’s deceptive and being used as to soften up the public.


14 posted on 05/23/2012 6:14:52 AM PDT by caww
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To: boatbums
Amen Sister!

I believe we should look at this truth and rejoice in God's unmerited mercy. Israel has failed God so many times and yet God does not abandon them. A great example of how God treats us.

15 posted on 05/23/2012 7:02:08 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
It never fails, does it?

No it doesn't.

I thought what was particularly interesting in this article is the sequence of events. Jesus tells those in the temple (mat. 23:39) "...you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'

Jesus then leaves the temple and begins teaching his disciples about the Tribulation. I believe if we are going to understand the words in Scripture we need to know where they were spoken, when they were spoken and who they were spoken to. In the temple Jesus said "till you say". If I understand this correctly it seems to me that He is telling them at one point they will say the words and when they do they will truly understand who He is. IOW, God is not done with Israel and if God is not done with Israel the church did not become a nation and replace it.

Thank you, wmfights, for your perseverance in getting Biblical truth to those who will read it and accept it. And when the non-Christians come on the thread to deny Christ and His word, know that you are doing something right or Satan would not be trying to silence you.

Thank you for the kind sentiment.

I suspect this topic is not understood by most Christians. A keyword search of Supersessionism, or Replacement Theology, will provide a lot of threads on the topic for those who wish to study it. I wish we could get more of our Reformed Brothers and Sisters to examine exactly where Supersessionism/Replacement Theology emerged from and what those theologians thought of Jews and Israel. I think they would be repulsed by what they find.

16 posted on 05/23/2012 7:44:07 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights
I wish we could get more of our Reformed Brothers and Sisters to examine exactly where Supersessionism/Replacement Theology emerged from and what those theologians thought of Jews and Israel. I think they would be repulsed by what they find.

I would like to think that is true, but unfortunately once a person has denied and rejected Scripture so many times, his heart becomes hardened to the point where he simply is incapable of seeing the truth and understanding it.

There has been more than enough evidence presented on this forum to show that replacement theology is a demonic, evil, doctrine that has no validation in Scripture and for which God promises a curse. There has been more than enough evidence to prove that replacement theology has been the source of "Christian" persecution of the Jews since the early days of the church, and evidence has been provided that proves that the Nazis embraced replacement theology and used it as justification for their slaughter of six million of the Jewish people.

Scripture is the final authority on any subject in it, and the fact that four-fifths of the Bible is about Israel, not the Church, and the fact that Scripture is the supreme and last and only authority anyone needs to determine what is truth, and the fact that the Scripture gives minute detail of God's promises to the Jews and His future plans for them, leaves men with no excuse to hold onto the godless doctrine of replacement theology.

The fact that replacement theologists continue to deny and reject the Bible, even after having been proven wrong and even after having been made aware that Jesus Christ is the living Word of God, tells us what we need to know. No one who truly knows Christ as Savior will ever deny Him, and since God tells us that we will know people "by their fruits", we have to face the ugly, evil truth about replacement theology and those who continue to espouse it even after they know what the truth is.

17 posted on 05/23/2012 9:09:33 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: wmfights
If, as you suppose, this is talking about a future event, then you would have to include the preceeding verses:

Now if their house is left desolate, why would anyone say Israel is blessed?
18 posted on 05/23/2012 4:30:21 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; wmfights

BTW-A quick word study on “desolate” reveals ruin. This runs counter with all the other arguments I often hear that Israel is a blessed people.


19 posted on 05/23/2012 4:34:26 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD

Harley, I do kind of suspect we’re being baited here. The rhetoric went completely over the top in this thread, very quickly.


20 posted on 05/23/2012 6:50:26 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: HarleyD; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
BTW-A quick word study on “desolate” reveals ruin. This runs counter with all the other arguments I often hear that Israel is a blessed people.

Is Almighty God not able to restore what he has destroyed?

Joel 1:1-10
1 The word of the Lord that came to Joel the son of Pethuel.

2 Hear this, ye old men, and give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. Hath this been in your days, or even in the days of your fathers?

3 Tell ye your children of it, and let your children tell their children, and their children another generation.

4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.

5 Awake, ye drunkards, and weep; and howl, all ye drinkers of wine, because of the new wine; for it is cut off from your mouth.

6 For a nation is come up upon my land, strong, and without number, whose teeth are the teeth of a lion, and he hath the cheek teeth of a great lion.

7 He hath laid my vine waste, and barked my fig tree: he hath made it clean bare, and cast it away; the branches thereof are made white.

8 Lament like a virgin girded with sackcloth for the husband of her youth.

9 The meat offering and the drink offering is cut off from the house of the Lord; the priests, the Lord's ministers, mourn.

10 The field is wasted, the land mourneth; for the corn is wasted: the new wine is dried up, the oil languisheth.

BUT...

Joel 2:1-26
2 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the Lord cometh, for it is nigh at hand;

2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

3 A fire devoureth before them; and behind them a flame burneth: the land is as the garden of Eden before them, and behind them a desolate wilderness; yea, and nothing shall escape them.

4 The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses; and as horsemen, so shall they run.

5 Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap, like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble, as a strong people set in battle array.

6 Before their face the people shall be much pained: all faces shall gather blackness.

7 They shall run like mighty men; they shall climb the wall like men of war; and they shall march every one on his ways, and they shall not break their ranks:

8 Neither shall one thrust another; they shall walk every one in his path: and when they fall upon the sword, they shall not be wounded.

9 They shall run to and fro in the city; they shall run upon the wall, they shall climb up upon the houses; they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.

10 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining:

11 And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

12 Therefore also now, saith the Lord, turn ye even to me with all your heart, and with fasting, and with weeping, and with mourning:

13 And rend your heart, and not your garments, and turn unto the Lord your God: for he is gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repenteth him of the evil.

14 Who knoweth if he will return and repent, and leave a blessing behind him; even a meat offering and a drink offering unto the Lord your God?

15 Blow the trumpet in Zion, sanctify a fast, call a solemn assembly:

16 Gather the people, sanctify the congregation, assemble the elders, gather the children, and those that suck the breasts: let the bridegroom go forth of his chamber, and the bride out of her closet.

17 Let the priests, the ministers of the Lord, weep between the porch and the altar, and let them say, Spare thy people, O Lord, and give not thine heritage to reproach, that the heathen should rule over them: wherefore should they say among the people, Where is their God?

18 Then will the Lord be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

19 Yea, the Lord will answer and say unto his people, Behold, I will send you corn, and wine, and oil, and ye shall be satisfied therewith: and I will no more make you a reproach among the heathen:

20 But I will remove far off from you the northern army, and will drive him into a land barren and desolate, with his face toward the east sea, and his hinder part toward the utmost sea, and his stink shall come up, and his ill savour shall come up, because he hath done great things.

21 Fear not, O land; be glad and rejoice: for the Lord will do great things.

22 Be not afraid, ye beasts of the field: for the pastures of the wilderness do spring, for the tree beareth her fruit, the fig tree and the vine do yield their strength.

23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the Lord your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

24 And the floors shall be full of wheat, and the vats shall overflow with wine and oil.

25 And I will restore to you the years that the locust hath eaten, the cankerworm, and the caterpiller, and the palmerworm, my great army which I sent among you.

26 And ye shall eat in plenty, and be satisfied, and praise the name of the Lord your God, that hath dealt wondrously with you: and my people shall never be ashamed.

Yes, God did leave Israel desolate when Titus overran Jerusalem and destroyed the great temple, not leaving one rock upon another (as was prophesied) and they were dispersed throughout the world - the four corners of the world. BUT...God does not break his promise. He WILL restore what the locust has eaten. What was once desolate will "blossom as the rose" again. He will bring back His people from the four corners of the world, back to the land He promise to Abraham. Israel WILL repent and they will look upon Him whom they have pierced and mourn for him. They WILL return to Jehovah in repentance and He WILL restore them - just as He said He would. Jehovah God IS trustworthy and will do all that He has said.

21 posted on 05/23/2012 10:41:35 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: wmfights
Maybe a closer review of the posted thread will help you see that what you are claiming is not what is written.

Did you read the article? Here is the article's conclusion:

This rejection [of Israel] is not final and ultimate; the day will come when Israel will say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’ (vv. 37–39). The Kingdom of God is not taken from the Jews that they might be forever abandoned; ‘all Israel’ is yet to be saved and brought within the redemptive purpose of God.

He makes the very mistake I'm pointing out and redefines what "all Israel" means, after Paul has gone to such great lengths to define it!

The problem for the Replacement Theologists is these verses indicate the Lord is not done with Israel and for Replacement Theology to be correct the Lord must be done with them.

The problem with the Zionist (and the Replacement Theologist) is that they disregard what the Bible actually says about the commonwealth of Israel, and how God intends to save "all Israel".

For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.(Romans 11:32)

If you are still struggling with what Romans 11:6ff means, read Galatians 3 and 4.

22 posted on 05/24/2012 4:17:13 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Lee N. Field

I suspect you’re right but I can’t help loving to nibble on the bait. :O)


23 posted on 05/24/2012 5:29:53 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: boatbums; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
I don't wish to sound rude but on the one hand people are saying that the restoration of Israel is a sign of God's blessings to the people and then on the other hand people are quoting scripture that says they will be desolate until they say, "Blessed be the name of the Lord" and acknowledge Christ. To the best of my knowledge Israel has not acknowledge Christ to be Lord so that should mean they are still in a "desolate" state.

It's this reinvention of scripture to suit the moment that I often see among the Catholics. And, yes, they also like to post lots of scripture that has absolutely nothing to do with the premise of the argument.

24 posted on 05/24/2012 5:41:48 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
I don't wish to sound rude but on the one hand people are saying that the restoration of Israel is a sign of God's blessings to the people and then on the other hand people are quoting scripture that says they will be desolate until they say, "Blessed be the name of the Lord" and acknowledge Christ. To the best of my knowledge Israel has not acknowledge Christ to be Lord so that should mean they are still in a "desolate" state. It's this reinvention of scripture to suit the moment that I often see among the Catholics. And, yes, they also like to post lots of scripture that has absolutely nothing to do with the premise of the argument.

The point has been all along that Israel WILL remain in unbelief until "the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled", just as Jesus said. The restoration of Israel WILL happen because God says it will and the only reason we are talking about this now is because there are signs, and have been signs, that point to this happening sooner rather than later. The very fact of the nation of Israel being back in their homeland ESTABLISHED as a nation once again from two thousand YEARS of not being a nation is a biggie sign. Israel HAS been desolate because they rejected the Messiah, Jesus Christ, but one day soon (I believe) they will be brought to repentance:

And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. (Zechariah 12:10)

That has not happened yet although there have been many Jews that HAVE believed in Jesus. As a nation, no. But they WILL as a nation, as a people, return to Jehovah and believe in Jesus as their Messiah and be saved. They WILL one day say, "Blessed be the name of the LORD." and God's promises to them, to their father Abraham, will be completely fulfilled.

25 posted on 05/24/2012 9:41:29 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

Exactly...I believe this as well and God’s word points clearly to this...

Also, their unbelief is a blessing for us and those yet to come to Christ...Israel is the true branch...we’ve been grafted in.


26 posted on 05/24/2012 11:48:43 PM PDT by caww
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To: boatbums; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
The point has been all along that Israel WILL remain in unbelief until "the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled",

I understand that. My point is that WHILE Israel remains in unbelief their house is desolated. God does not bless unbelief. And they will ONLY be blessed when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled and their unbelief is removed. Not before. So if their house is desolated where is God's kingdom right now?

BTW-Look at what you just said. This is exactly what us Reformers are constantly arguing about and personally drives me crazy. God is in control of who believes and those who cannot see the light. Israel CANNOT see the light UNTIL "the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled". They are like the men of Sodom groping to find Lot's house but never finding it or the Egyptians chasing Israel in the desert but never reaching them unless God's wills it. Just meditate on your statement above and you will see a far larger picture.

27 posted on 05/24/2012 11:53:55 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; wmfights
I suspect you’re right but I can’t help loving to nibble on the bait. :O)

Just to stir the pot, an excerpt...*

From Herman Ridderbos, Paul: an Outline of His Theology, Chapter 8 (The Church as the People of God), Section 58. The Future of Israel, p359 and following.

...Israel as a nation will not again exhibit the image of the people of God before the gentiles, too, have brought their full portion into it. Till such time, that is to say, until this great hour of the consummation, Israel will in part exhibit the image of hardening, the evidence of the judgment of God. Only under the concurrent mark of God's judgment on the unbelief of a part of Israel will Israel come to its fullness and just then be redeemed from that judgment. The mystery (v. 25) is thus situated in the manner in which this fullness of Israel is to be saved: in the strange interdependence of the salvation of Israel and that of the gentiles. Israel, which was chosen from among the gentiles, must, contrary to every human expectation, first give way to the gentiles. But as Israel because of its disobedience has become a cause of salvation for the gentiles, so now the gentiles must provoke Israel to jealousy. There is thus an interaction. God grants no mercy to Israel without the gentiles, but neither does he do so to the gentiles without Israel. As he first shut up all under disobedience, so will he have mercy on all. The whole argument of Romans 11:11-32 leads to the indication of this mutual relation of dependence, of this undulatory movement of salvation (cf. vv. 30-32), and on this, too, the doxology of the depth of the riches, wisdom and knowledge of God and of the inscrutablness of his ways if founded (vv. 33-36).

There is therefore no contradiction between the definition of the New Testament church as the people of God and hoding to Israel as the object of God's irrevocable gift of grace and calling. By making faith the criterion of the children of Abraham (Gal. 3:26ff.), and giving believing gentiles a place among his posterity (Rom. 4:16), the election of historical Israel is not nullified or rendered inoperative in order to make room for the formation of the new people of God, the Christian church. Rather, Paul wishes to show that it is precicely in historical Israel that God has chosen the Christian church and called it to himself (Gal. 3:16); on the one hand this is to say that all who belong to Christ by faith also belong to this church, but on the other hand that the historical bond between God and Israel continues to be maintained in its real significance. That significance has always consisted in the fact that Israel's election is an election of grace and that for Israel, too, therefore, there is no other way than that of faith. Consequently the irrevocable character of God's gifts of grace and calling, which remain valid for Israel, consists in that he will restore Israel to this true sonship by the proclamation of the gospel and by provoking it to jealousy. But in that way he will not only preserve to himself a remnant according tothe election of grace, but he wil also lead the pleroma of Israel, Israel as people, all Israel, to salvation with the fullness of the gentiles.

On the one hand Israel is thus bound to the church of the gentiles; the stream of grace must return from them to Israel, after it has first passed Israel by because of its unbelief and come to the gentiles. But on the other hand, the church made up of the geniles is bound to Israel. For the life from the dead, the great future, is not to dawn without the pleroma of Israel; all nations will be blessed with Abraham's seed. The holy root of Israel continues to support all, the holy leaven permeats all, and the gentiles are grafted into the olvie tree of Isreal (Rom 11:24). There is re-creation, but there is also continuity, becuase Israel has always been the product of God's life-creating grace; there is a new Covenant, but not without connection to, rather with the maintaining of what consititued the essential mystery of the Old Covenant. Thus, on the one hand Paul is able to see the church of the gentiles as endowed with all the privileges and blessings of Israel, and to see it occupy the place of unbelieving Israel, and yet on the other to uphold to thefull the continuation of God's original redemptive intentions with Israel as the historical people of God. And all this because of the gracious character of God's eleciton and because of Christ, who is the seed of Abraham as well as the second Adam: the one in whom the whole church, Jews and gentiles together, has become one body and one new man. This last observation leads us now to the second great Pauline conception ofthe church, that is, the church as the body of Christ.

Errors in transcription are mine.

I realise I run the risk of overshooting attention span. Close attention is necessary for most profit. Those old Dutch guys tended to wordy.

*With a ping for thanks to wmfights, for bringing Ridderbos my attention.

28 posted on 05/25/2012 7:43:33 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: Lee N. Field; wmfights
This is a most excellent analysis and this especially bears repeating.

I would even go so far as to say that the errors and corruption of Israel's disobedience is given for our instruction as a sign of the errors and corruption the Gentiles face. If one compare the two histories, they'll find there are strange parallels.

29 posted on 05/26/2012 2:44:24 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD; wmfights
Going through my audio files, looking for things to clean out, I came across Kim Riddelbarger's presentation Covenant Theology and Eschatology, part of his long series on amillenialism.

I re-listened to it last night. Standard stuff, from my perspective, but very refreshing. He covers redemptive history, basic covenant theology, the different conceptions of what eschatology is. With, an excursus on how the land promise plays out in the New Covenant.

30 posted on 05/28/2012 6:45:02 AM PDT by Lee N. Field ("He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.")
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To: boatbums; HarleyD; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
As a nation, no. But they WILL as a nation, as a people, return to Jehovah and believe in Jesus as their Messiah and be saved. They WILL one day say, "Blessed be the name of the LORD." and God's promises to them, to their father Abraham, will be completely fulfilled.

Amen!

It's been said many times on these threads about Replacement Theology, but most of the Reformed and Roman Catholics want to ignore it.

31 posted on 05/28/2012 7:09:39 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: HarleyD; boatbums; wmfights; GiovannaNicoletta; caww
My point is that WHILE Israel remains in unbelief their house is desolated. God does not bless unbelief. And they will ONLY be blessed when the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled and their unbelief is removed.

Hey! There is hope for you yet HD. Unlike your Reformed Brothers you are at least beginning to recognize that God is not done with Israel. It is a question of timing. The next big step is to think about what does God do to open the eyes of Israel.

32 posted on 05/28/2012 7:23:38 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: wmfights; boatbums; GiovannaNicoletta; caww; Lee N. Field
I have consistently stated that I am not prepare to make any calls on eschatology. At the risk of sounding brass or pompous, before coming to ANY doctrinal conclusion I like to make sure that I'm correct. Otherwise I'll leave it for another time and study.

However, IMO there are certain truths that all Christians should understand and adhere to. I should note that these were basic principles I formulated when I became a Christian. Some of these are found here but when Lee or I brought them up they were never answered.

These are truths that seem to be constantly ignored when formulating other doctrine as they have been ignored here. No one seems to want to deal with them in a frank and thoughtful manner which surprises me. One will NEVER reconcile how a "certain hardening" can come upon Israel while maintaining man's free will. They are absolutely opposed. Yet here people don't seem to want to bother with comprehending what the scriptures are actually teaching us.

We are given to having "itching ears" so it is important that we pray for understanding before we make doctrinal decisions. Contrary to popular "God loves me/God loves Israel" mentality, God is very much interested in us formulating a good doctrinal understanding about Him. Yet good sound doctrine seems to be very boring to most people.

God loves us and blesses us ONLY because we are being conformed to the image of His Son-something He is doing by His grace and will. God gives grace to unbelievers but His wrath rests on them-not His blessings. Israel exists today because it was God's will. That doesn't mean that God loves Israel any more than He would have loved the formation of Rome or Nazi Germany which was also His doing. It simply mean that there is a divine purpose in all of this.

I would suggest we all listen to Lee's audiofiles in post 30.

33 posted on 05/28/2012 5:43:21 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: wmfights
As a nation, no. But they WILL as a nation, as a people, return to Jehovah and believe in Jesus as their Messiah and be saved. They WILL one day say, "Blessed be the name of the LORD." and God's promises to them, to their father Abraham, will be completely fulfilled. --bb

Amen!

It's been said many times on these threads about Replacement Theology, but most of the Reformed and Roman Catholics want to ignore it.

"Is there a problem with the acoustics in here?"

34 posted on 05/28/2012 6:41:53 PM PDT by Lee N. Field ("And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise" Gal 3:29)
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To: HarleyD; wmfights; boatbums; GiovannaNicoletta; caww; Dr. Eckleburg
I would suggest we all listen to Lee's audiofile in post 30.

One of the things I like about the typical eschatology presentation from the folks I listen to is that they deal much more with the sweep of redemptive history, and the first coming of Christ, than the typical dispensational presentation. Gospel saturated.

The one I pointed to is an example of that.

Will they listen?

35 posted on 05/28/2012 6:53:25 PM PDT by Lee N. Field (Come, behold the works of the LORD, how he has brought desolations on the earth.)
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To: wmfights
And the denial of the promises of God to His chosen people continue, wmfights.

Again, denial of Scripture is denial of Jesus Christ, and, just like the lie that is being repeated here, that lie being that God is done with the Jews because they rejected their Messiah (in spite of the wealth of Scripture presented that proves that the Jews will return to Jesus Christ and be saved), then those who are denying Jesus Christ, the living Word of God, by denying the Bible, are just as desolate and discarded by Jesus as they attempt to claim the Jews are.

This is why I'm done, wmfights. We are not required by God to continue to convince those who refuse to accept truth. I am, again, very appreciative of these articles because there are some who will read them and learn and be blessed by the knowledge that God does not lie to anyone and does not deceive anyone and does not make promises to anyone that He does not keep.

As for the spiritually dead who continually surface on replacement theology threads to deny Jesus Christ and to lie about what He has said, leave them to their fate. God honors the choices that people make and so should we.

36 posted on 05/29/2012 1:16:21 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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