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Childish behavior



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[Mormon] Bishop’s handling of Vernon incest case was correct
Tooele Transcript Bulletin ^ | May 8, 2012 | Merrill Nelson

Posted on 05/23/2012 9:20:15 AM PDT by greyfoxx39

A recent Transcript article described the conviction of a 67-year-old Vernon man for the molestation of his minor daughter 18 years ago ( “Father gets six months in jail for seven years of incest,” April 19). The focus of the article appeared to be whether the sentence imposed by the court was too lenientis headline not only shifted the focus from the offender and his sentence, but wrongly assumed that the bishop had a legal duty to report and disparaged the bishop by concluding that he “failed” in that duty.. However, the sub-headline to the story was that the “LDS bishop was informed of abuse 18 years ago but failed to report crime.” This headline not only shifted the focus from the offender and his sentence, but wrongly assumed that the bishop had a legal duty to report and disparaged the bishop by concluding that he “failed” in that duty.

[Excerpt from earlier article]
”A former Vernon resident was sentenced in 3rd District Court Tuesday to six months in jail for abusing his daughter over a period of seven years, 18 years ago.

The 67-year-old man, whom the Transcript-Bulletin is not naming in an effort to protect the identity of the victim, apologized to the court, the victim and his family for sexually abusing his daughter from 1987 to 1994 when she was a child. According to statements made in court Tuesday, the girl reported the abuse to her mother in 1994, and the man subsequently told his LDS bishop what he had done. This resulted in him being excommunicated from the church, but the bishop never reported the crime.”
Read more: Tooele Transcript Bulletin - Father gets six months in jail for seven years of incest


Under Utah law, everyone has a duty to report child abuse, with the express exception of clergy who hear the abuse information confidentially from the offender, as the bishop did in this case. Confidential confessions of abuse by the offender fall within the statutory clergy privilege and cannot be disclosed. Clergy do have a duty to report abuse information from any source other than the offender.

The law was the same in 1994, when the victim in the Vernon case informed her mother and the abuse stopped. The article states that other family members were also informed of the abuse. The offender subsequently confessed to his bishop, who took appropriate church disciplinary action.

Accordingly, because the bishop in the Vernon case received the abuse information confidentially from the offender, the bishop had no duty to report to civil authorities. In fact, the bishop had a legal duty to keep the offender’s confidence and could not legally report. The bishop is the only person in the picture who did not have a duty to report. The mother and the other family members who knew of the abuse did have a legal duty to report. The article makes no mention of their “failure to report.” In any event, the reporting of the abuse was apparently not an issue in the criminal proceeding. The primary issue there was the appropriate punishment for the crime.

Some may claim that there should be no reporting exemption for clergy, that clergy have a moral duty to report abuse. However, the clergy privilege, which legally binds clergy to confidentiality in all states, has been in place for centuries and serves the important public policy of providing a private outlet for confession of misconduct to relieve the burdened soul and begin the process of renewal and recompense. Without that source of spiritual consolation and assurance of confidentiality, offenders would be less likely to come forward, and abuse, as well as other misconduct, would remain undisclosed and allowed to continue. Private disclosure of abuse allows the clergyman, as part of the repentance process, to take steps to stop the abuse, inform others with the offender’s consent, and get help to victims and offenders. In such cases, reporting is then left to the family or other professionals, as in the Vernon case.

We all abhor and condemn child abuse in all its forms and degrees. The Vernon case is a tragic example of the lasting harm to victims and families caused by abuse. Fortunately, the abuse stopped with disclosure to the mother, the victim is healing, and now criminal justice has been meted out to the offender. The bishop’s role was to help the victim and family heal and help the offender reform, and the bishop properly filled that role.

Merrill Nelson is an attorney at Kirton McConkie and chief legal counsel to the LDS Church Abuse Help Line.



TOPICS: Current Events; General Discusssion; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: abuse; mormon; romney
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Note: The mormon church boasts that their clergy is a "lay" clergy, which means leaders have NO formal training for the position of spiritual or moral guidance of members.

There was another sexual abuse case in AZ where the local bishop failed to notify legal authorities.

Mormon Church Denies Prior Knowledge of Susan Brock Affair With Teen Boy, Which is a Lie

1 posted on 05/23/2012 9:20:28 AM PDT by greyfoxx39
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To: Colofornian; Elsie; svcw; Zakeet; Tennessee Nana; aMorePerfectUnion; Godzilla; fishtank; metmom; ..

Ping


2 posted on 05/23/2012 9:29:48 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The epitome of stupidity is a member of a proven racist sect running against a black man.)
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To: greyfoxx39

the bishop had no duty to report to civil authorities
__________________________________________________

The law doesnt say that he must not...

What decent person would just stand by and do nothing while such an evil sin was being committed ???


3 posted on 05/23/2012 9:55:26 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: greyfoxx39

This “bishop” person had a duty to report, the crime. I am glad he is going to jail.
This “oh we don’t pay our “bishops or clergy”, is so bogus.
What do they think tithes (in part) are for - to support the religious leader so they are not burdened by everyday needs.


4 posted on 05/23/2012 10:02:16 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Misread - thought the none reporting “bishop” was going to jail.


5 posted on 05/23/2012 10:06:56 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Tennessee Nana; svcw

“Confidential confessions of abuse by the offender fall within the statutory clergy privilege and cannot be disclosed.”

I can’t speak directly to the law, but the lawyer’s statement above says that clergy cannot disclose, when the information comes from the offender.

It is one of the moral conflicts of clergy. On the one hand, if he reports (if he can legally report), nobody will come to him for counsel, and he becomes much less effective. On the other hand, if he doesn’t report, the person may continue harming others.

In this case, it sounds like the offender stopped his abuse (that’s a positive). It also sounds like the bishop gave help to all concerned.

As clergy, his concern should be for souls, not vengence, or even punishment. If the abuse continued, that places a heavy burden on the bishop, but does not, I think, remove his responsibility of confidentiality.

I do note that the offender did not escape punishment from the church - so, from what we have from the attorney, the bishop did as much as he was legally allowed to do - to stop the abuse (by advising and punishment) and to help the victim(s). If the abuse stopped, a good outcome. The only thing missing is the punishment, and the perp is getting that now.

BTW - bishops are not paid. Tithes support the church, its administration and paid officials - but not the bishops or elders.


6 posted on 05/23/2012 10:52:14 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

The question actually should be, are lds “bishops” really clergy?
BTW The concept of tithing which comes from the Old Testament was to first support the religious leaders so they would not burdened with everyday necessitates and be of council to the flock, then the meeting place, then the store house.


7 posted on 05/23/2012 11:17:57 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

It’s called tithes, offerings and alms.


8 posted on 05/23/2012 11:18:52 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

I know about the Old Testament use of tithes - however, we were talking about how the LDS church uses its tithes: They are not used to support bishops and elders.

Who, other than the church, has the right to answer the question of who they designate as their clergy? If the Mormon church considers them clergy, then I accept that they are LDS clergy.


9 posted on 05/23/2012 11:30:35 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

The law defines what a clergy is, they can call the ‘bishops” fish for all I care.


10 posted on 05/23/2012 11:35:18 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

You might be wrong.

Do you really want the government deciding who is and who is not clergy? I certainly don’t.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Clergy
See #3

According to #3, if the LDS says their bishops are clergy, they are clergy.


11 posted on 05/23/2012 11:46:26 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

I don’t care what the lds call these people.
They are untrained in counseling (in any aspect of human relationship), part time guys who randomly think they have all the answers to problems and issues they have no business dealing with.


12 posted on 05/23/2012 11:55:26 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw; GilesB; xzins; greyfoxx39

This brings up an interesting conundrum. Since every LDS male over the age of 16 is ordained a “priest” is any LDS male obligated to tell the authorities about child sexual abuse that is admitted to them by any other LDS member? Or is every priesthood holder exempt?


13 posted on 05/23/2012 12:23:52 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: greyfoxx39
The mormon church boasts that their clergy is a "lay" clergy...

GROAN!

14 posted on 05/23/2012 1:03:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39
... leaders have NO formal training for the position of...

Double GROAN!

15 posted on 05/23/2012 1:04:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: greyfoxx39

Huh?

What 'position'??

We're just MISSIONARIES!

16 posted on 05/23/2012 1:05:46 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: P-Marlowe
This brings up an interesting conundrum.

Triple...

17 posted on 05/23/2012 1:07:13 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: P-Marlowe
I wonder if THIS 'traning' has any influence on how the sexual mores of MORMONs develope?


What is your church doing to help the male to stay true?
 




prophet kimball"All of this should be conveyed without having priesthood leaders focus upon intimate matters which are a part of husband and wife relationships. Skillful interviewing and counseling can occur without discussion of clinical details by placing firm responsibility on individual members of the Church to put their lives in order before exercising the privilege of entering a house of the Lord. The First Presidency has interpreted oral sex as constituting an unnatural, impure, or unholy practice. If a person is engaged in a practice which troubles him enough to ask about it, he should discontinue it."
- Official Declaration of the First Presidency of the Church, January 5th, 1982


spencer kimball"Prophets anciently and today condemn masturbation. It induces feelings of guilt and shame. It is detrimental to spirituality. It indicates slavery to the flesh, not that mastery of it and the growth toward godhood which is the object of our mortal life. Our modern prophet has indicated that no young man should be called on a mission who is not free from this practice. What is more, it too often leads to grievous sin, even to that sin against nature, homosexuality. For, done in private, it evolves often into mutual masturbation-practiced with another person of the same sex and thence into total homosexuality...."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Pages 77-79, 81-82

"Among the most common sexual sins our young people commit are necking and petting. Not only do these improper relations often lead to fornication, [unwed] pregnancy, and abortions - all ugly sins - but in and of themselves they are pernicious evils, and it is often difficult for youth to distinguish where one ends and another begins. They awaken lust and stir evil thoughts and sex desires. They are but parts of the whole family of related sins and indiscretions. Almost like twins, 'petting' and fornication are alike."
- Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 65


spencer kimball"Also far-reaching is the effect of the loss of chastity. Once given or taken or stolen it can never be regained. Even in a forced contact such as rape or incest, the injured one is greatly outraged. If she has not cooperated and contributed to the foul deed, she is of course in a more favorable position. There is no condemnation where there is no voluntary participation. It is better to die in defending one's virtue than to live having lost it without a struggle."
-
Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, page 196


"And Cain said unto the Lord, My punishment is greater than I can bear. Behold, thou hast driven me out this day from the face of the earth." (Genesis 4:9-14.) That was true of murder. It is also true of illicit sex, which, of course, includes all petting, fornication, adultery, homosexual acts, and all other perversions. The Lord may say to offenders, as He did to Cain, "What hast thou done?" The children thus conceived make damning charges against you; the companions who have been frustrated and violated condemn you; the body that has been defiled cries out against you; the spirit which has been dwarfed convicts you. You will have difficulty throughout the ages in totally forgiving yourself."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965. Often-used quote still used today in LDS seminary classes.


kimball"I do not find in the Bible the modern terms "petting" nor "homosexuality," yet I found numerous scriptures which forbade such acts under by whatever names they might be called. I could not find the term "homosexuality," but I did find numerous places where the Lord condemned such a practice with such vigor that even the death penalty was assessed."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, "Love Versus Lust", BYU Speech January 5, 1965


"If adultery or fornication justified the death penalty in the old days, and still in Christ's day, is the sin any less today because the laws of the land do not assess the death penalty for it? Is the act less grievous? There must be a washing, a purging, a changing of attitudes, a correcting of appraisals, a strengthening toward self-mastery. There must be many prayers, and volumes of tears. There must be an inner conviction giving to the sin its full diabolical weight. There must be increased devotion and much thought and study. And this takes energy and time and often is accompanied with sore embarrassment, heavy deprivations and deep trials, even if indeed one is not excommunicated from the Church, losing all spiritual blessings."
-Prophet Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, Page 155


"How like the mistletoe is immorality. The killer plant starts with a sticky sweet berry. Little indiscretions are the berries -- indiscretions like sex thoughts sex discussions, passionate kissing, pornography. The leaves and little twigs are masturbation and necking and such, growing with every exercise. The full-grown plant is petting and sex looseness. It confounds, frustrates, and destroys like the parasite if it is not cut out and destroyed, for, in time it robs the tree, bleeds its life, and leaves it barren and dry; and, strangely enough, the parasite dies with its host."
- Apostle Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference Address, April 1, 1967.

18 posted on 05/23/2012 1:08:37 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

New tagline


19 posted on 05/23/2012 2:50:21 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: svcw

OK - I see where you’re coming from. No need for me to continue conversing with you about this.


20 posted on 05/23/2012 3:14:45 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: P-Marlowe

Here’s how I would judge:
If the church member is coming to, and confessing to another church member BECAUSE of their position of authority in the church, then that person should be accepted by law as clergy - since it is their role in the church that elicited the admission in the first place. Since every male is a priest, there is nothing about holding that position that would draw another member to discuss deeply personal and troubling matters with them; as I would go to my pastor in similar circumstances.

Because of the role they play in the church, an LDS bishop most closely parallels a pastor in most other denominations; an LDS priest is simply an acknowledged member of the church.


21 posted on 05/23/2012 3:42:01 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB; svcw; xzins; greyfoxx39; Elsie
Here’s how I would judge: ... Because of the role they play in the church, an LDS bishop most closely parallels a pastor in most other denominations; an LDS priest is simply an acknowledged member of the church.

Every male LDS member is technically a member of the Clergy since they are all ORDAINED priests. Unless the conveyance of the Priesthood means NOTHING (which is what I believe BTW) then a 16 year old priest is as much a member of the Clergy as a 55 year old Bishop. Neither position is paid in the LDS Church and all are technically voluntary. Hence any LDS man charged under this law with failing to report child abuse after another LDS member confesses to them would have this defense available.

Are you willing to admit that the LDS Priesthood is just a lot of fluff and has no legitimate spiritual or legal significance or is it your position that LDS Priests are really "Priests" in the Biblical sense?

Is it just a stupid title to make 16 year olds feel important or are these children really holding some kind of significant ecclesiastical position of authority?

22 posted on 05/23/2012 4:05:58 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe

Well, my knowledge of LDS practices comes from my friendship with a Mormon in high school - so I have’t done much research.

I believe they use 1 Peter 2:9 (But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light.) to support their priesthood of all members.

The Aaronic priesthood is for males 12-18, and one would be hard pressed to make the case for their conversations being protected. They are more like alter boys, except there are more of them.

It is an LDS construct that has no clerical parallel in other Christian churches, nor authority is scripture other than the passage from 1 Peter I quote above.


23 posted on 05/23/2012 4:28:46 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB; P-Marlowe

My experience with mormonism has come as long ago as 1962, and my huge mormon family and many mormon friends.
There are many here who are former mormons who can trace their family ties back to Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
Knowing a nice guy from high school, is not knowing much about mormonism.
Perhaps you should research it.


24 posted on 05/23/2012 5:32:06 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Why should I want to research Mormonism? I have no intention of joining them.

I have my own history with the church in which I was raised; I don’t believe in their teaching, I’m happy to help any who are trying to break out, as my family did - but I am not on a crusade against that church.

I feel no threat from Mormons. I pray for Mormons - I don’t feel compelled to study their beliefs.


25 posted on 05/23/2012 5:56:29 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

Ok, then I would suggest that you cease in trying to explain mormonism when you have said you don’t know about it.
How do you help people leave something you know nothing about? What would your arguments be for leaving something you do not know.


26 posted on 05/23/2012 6:08:34 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Oh get hold of yourself! I have never tried to “explain mormonism” just pointing out that a Mormon bishop is rightly considered a member of the clergy. I don’t need to know very much about Mormonism to know that.

Your anti-Mormon prod gets very tiresome, very quickly.

I will continue to post when, where and how I want - go grind your axe somewhere else, if you don’t like what I post.


27 posted on 05/23/2012 6:33:31 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: svcw

Not every church a person leaves is the Mormon church. I have very extensive knowledge of the church of my upbringing - it just isn’t the Mormon church...and I never said, or implied, that it was.

Your hatred of everything Mormon is clouding your good sense.


28 posted on 05/23/2012 6:38:35 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

I do not hate mormons.
I do however detest mormonISM.
You are free to post whatever you want, it’s an open site.
I disagree on the term “clergy”.
mormons may call their “bishops” anything they want, they are not clergy by traditional understanding.


29 posted on 05/23/2012 6:43:37 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: GilesB
Your hatred of everything Mormon is clouding your good sense.

Reading the mind of another Freeper and/or attributing motives to him - are forms of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

30 posted on 05/23/2012 9:00:48 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: GilesB; svcw

What was wrong with your church and why should anyone leave it?

And why are you so ashamed to say what church it was that you left?

And why do you find it necessary to criticize those of us who left the Mormon church?

What religion did you convert into?


31 posted on 05/23/2012 9:36:07 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: GilesB
It is an LDS construct that has no clerical parallel in other Christian churches, nor authority is scripture other than the passage from 1 Peter I quote above.

So the sign on the outer wall of their church building could just as easily lead to THIS mnemonic: LDP


The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Priests.


Extrapolating further...

The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Non-Gentiles


The OTHER major branch of MORMONism (Sorry SLC headquarters; that's just a fact*) already had the RLDS sewn up, or the SLC folks could have been even MORE accurate:

The RESTORED Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints




* http://newsroom.lds.org/article/church-seeks-to-address-public-confusion-over-texas-polygamy-group

32 posted on 05/24/2012 3:38:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: GilesB

You may be interested with a bit of Utah history; considering your screen name.

It’s either Giles or Gilestown

https://www.google.com/search?q=gilestown&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475#hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475&sclient=psy-ab&q=gilestown%2C+utah&oq=gilestown%2C+utah&aq=f&aqi=g-K1&aql=&gs_l=serp.12..0i30.6354.8301.0.13366.6.6.0.0.0.0.228.965.0j5j1.6.0...0.0.cdFSpmUDc3Q&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=10402d88455d8ac7&biw=1093&bih=479


33 posted on 05/24/2012 3:48:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
My newest edition of the BoM was picked up at this location.

Someone had left it sitting on a windowsill.



34 posted on 05/24/2012 3:56:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Someone has attempted to create a tourist stop at the river crossing, but it appears not to be doing so well...

 

 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

35 posted on 05/24/2012 4:01:55 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
You can barely see the old streets in the view found in GoogleEarth:
 
  38°21'39.58"N
 
110°50'46.58"W
 
The structure is located right near the highway, UT-24
 
 
The tourist thing is about 1 3/4 miles west of the ruin.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

36 posted on 05/24/2012 4:18:02 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Utah Binger
Bentonite soil
 
 
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobpalin/2237281619/
 
 
 

37 posted on 05/24/2012 4:49:01 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: P-Marlowe

I don’t care to discuss my reasons for leaving, nor the church I left. It is a personal matter and none of your business - it has nothing to do with being ashamed, I discuss it freely in the proper forum.

I haven’t criticized any who left the Mormon church, I have only criticized the way in which you injected your hatred for “Mormonism” (which is another way of saying everything Mormon) into a discussion about clergy and legal standing - you don’t get to make up your own rules about who is and who isn’t clergy. By your standard, nobody in the Mormon church would be clergy - and that is utter foolishness in a societal or legal sense.

I suppose none of the 12 apostles are rightly considered to have been clergy? They had no formal training as counselors either.

Like I said earlier - I have no more interest in discussing this with you. I refuse to be the grindstone for your particular hatchet.


38 posted on 05/24/2012 7:16:18 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: P-Marlowe

Sorry - didn’t see that it was you who posted. My apologies.

My previous response generally stands - except I didn’t express to you previously that I didn’t want to discuss this further, and I haven’t sensed that you have an axe to grind in this discussion - I have taken your questions at face value. My response about considering bishops clergy because of lack of training was regarding a previous post that wasn’t yours.

Anyway - I still don’t think this is the forum for discussing why I left my childhood church, or what church it was. Those specifics have no bearing here. I brought it up only to express understanding what it is like to leave a controlling church.

My anger and hate toward that church and its controlling ministers disappeaared when I realized that they had no power or control over my life any longer. It vanished, and I was able to forgive them, and only then was I truly free.

Let me reiterate - I have ZERO criticism for leaving the Mormon church. I applaud it, and I understand the difficulty, spiritually, socially, financially in taking that step. My criticissm has been to the belligerent tone one person here has taken to my honest, thoughtful and reasoned respoonses to the topic at hand. Somehow it was taken as a defense of Mormonism and worthy of attack because of that perceived defense.

I have never defended Mormonism - but I do defend the idea that the Mormon church is entitled to the legal rights of clergy, the same as other churches - and the position that parallels that of a pastor in most other churches is called a bishop in the LDS church.


39 posted on 05/24/2012 7:32:28 AM PDT by GilesB
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THX 1138


40 posted on 05/24/2012 7:41:14 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: GilesB; svcw; P-Marlowe
My criticissm has been to the belligerent tone one person here has taken to my honest, thoughtful and reasoned respoonses

Click HERE for "thoughtful and reasoned respoonses"

41 posted on 05/24/2012 7:50:38 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I fail to see relevance.


42 posted on 05/24/2012 7:57:22 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

Of course.


43 posted on 05/24/2012 8:04:53 AM PDT by greyfoxx39 (The inability or unwillingness to reality test beliefs is okay for my plumber but not for POTUS.)
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To: greyfoxx39

You are obviously pursuing an agenda of which you have not made me privy, and are unscrupulously using me, and my responses, to carry on your own private conversation for your own pleasure.

I can’t stop you doing that - but I will express my displeasure at your underhanded tactics.

I will ask you - either let me in on your private joke, or refrain from intruding on my exchanges with others.


44 posted on 05/24/2012 8:15:46 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB
This thread is posted in the Religion Forum.

The main guideline here is to "discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal." Attributing motives to other Freepers and reading their minds are forms of "making it personal."

If you do not wish to see RF posts, do NOT use the "everything" option on the browse. Instead, browse by "News/Activism." When you log back in, the browse will reset to "everything" - so be sure to set it back to "News/Activism."

45 posted on 05/24/2012 8:32:44 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: GilesB; svcw; xzins; greyfoxx39; Elsie
It is a personal matter and none of your business - it has nothing to do with being ashamed, I discuss it freely in the proper forum.

You are posting anonymously on an open forum. This is indeed the proper forum for discussing such a topic. The religion forum was specifically created at Free Republic to allow us to openly and honestly discuss our religious differences.

I find it utterly fascinating that you were a member of a church which you found to be either preaching doctrines of demons or preaching some kind of oppressive doctrine that you believed to be harmful, yet you refuse to discuss it on an anonymous forum and you then criticize people who choose to discuss the demonic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church and those of us who use this forum as an opportunity to sound the alarm over these problems.

I suppose you would prefer that people not be dragged or coaxed into the church you left and you have your reasons. This is the place to air those reasons. I'd like to hear them and this forum not only gives you the opportunity to do God's work in sounding the alarm, but also gives those who are currently members of that church to air any opposing side and to debate the issues.

Like I said earlier - I have no more interest in discussing this with you. I refuse to be the grindstone for your particular hatchet.

And what particular hatchet is that?

I merely pointed out that the LDS Church claims a biblical priesthood and calls 16 year olds "Priests" and claims that these children have the same calling as Aaron had in the Bible and that the Priests who worked the Temple in Jerusalem had in biblical times. If that is so, then every single male member of the LDS Church can claim that they are "clergy" under the reporting laws and literally none of them can be charged with any crime for not reporting child abuse.

Further, if these 16 year old children are not "clergy" under this law, then neither are their High Priests, Prophets, Bishops or any other ordained office holders. The LDS claims a "lay" clergy and that would necessarily include everyone who holds one of their phony priesthood ordinations.

46 posted on 05/24/2012 9:01:52 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: Religion Moderator

I don’t get where you’re coming from. Someone chooses to “make it personal” with me, by posting nonsense in response to my post, and including others in the list - apparently to enjoy the joke at my expense.

All I asked was that they refrain from using me as their foil in a private conversation/joke.

And you pull my post?

I never indicated that I don’t want to see RF posts - but I do think that a request for clarity is not out of order, and when that request is met with even more deriding obscurity, that the post you pulled was very much in order.

Sorry - but nobody has shown me the private handshake to be an accepted member of your RF club.

Besides - I was not making it personal - I was stupidly, ignorantly and innocently responding to posts at face-value...obviously bumbling into a private domain of a chosen few, and I was personally attacked (in response to which you did nothing). Then you reprimanded me for pointing out an obvious bias on the part of that poster. This cuts both ways - or does it only cut againstt someone you perceive to be a newbie, not part of the cult? This last business is someone taking obscure personal potshots at me, and calling in an audience while they do so - which you ignored - but then slap me down for asking that they either explain or leave me out of it.

You call that moderation? Either be even-handed, or quit pretending to be.


47 posted on 05/24/2012 9:02:12 AM PDT by GilesB
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THX 1138 place marker


48 posted on 05/24/2012 9:09:57 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: GilesB
I have only criticized the way in which you injected your hatred for “Mormonism”...


Yup; that HATE stuff can REALLY mess up a meaningful discussion!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

49 posted on 05/24/2012 9:28:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: P-Marlowe
I find it utterly fascinating that you were a member of a church which you found to be either preaching doctrines of demons or preaching some kind of oppressive doctrine that you believed to be harmful, yet you refuse to discuss it on an anonymous forum and you then criticize people who choose to discuss the demonic doctrines and practices of the LDS Church and those of us who use this forum as an opportunity to sound the alarm over these problems.

Pete; it's a FOOL that looks for logic in the chambers of the human heart.

--Everett McGill

50 posted on 05/24/2012 9:32:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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