Posted on 05/24/2012 12:19:11 PM PDT by greyfoxx39
Brian Johnston was desperate. The pressures of raising six children on one accountant salary were crushing, but worse was that he was starting to doubt the entire reason he and his wife had created a big family with a stay-at-home mom in the first place: Their Mormonism.
-SNIP-
The official church historian Marlin Jenson made news last year when he said that the loss of members in the last five or 10 years has been greater than perhaps any period since Mormonism was founded in 1830.
-SNIP-
For Mormons grappling with doubts, the potential spiritual consequences can appear frightening. Mormon scripture teaches that the lowest status in the afterlife, called Outer Darkness, is reserved for people who know Jesus and then become unbelievers. At times, the church can appear to respond harshly as well, tales about which surface on stayLDS.com, which receives about 700 visitors a day.
-SNIP-
When relatives found out four years ago that he was venting about the church online, they called his church and he was removed from leadership, he says, for expressing doubts about the literal truth of Mormonism. He lost his ”temple recommend” — a credential showing you are a good, orthodox Mormon, which means he can’t attend weddings and baptisms even of relatives or close friends, because those rituals happen in the temple and only Mormons in good standing are allowed in.
He sounds simultaneously heartbroken and seething with anger. “I’m pretty well a second-rate Mormon; I kind of sit in the back,” he said.
(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...
Jeff, you know I respect you, but there really is no Biblical support for baptism for the dead. If there were, the Bible is my authority, and I would follow it. No other book, no other claim to revelation, can trump the Bible.
Although I am sure there have been many excellent words spent debating this point by scholars more worthy than I, the article below gives a brief overview of the essential points, from a traditional Christian point of view:
http://carm.org/baptism-for-the-dead-in-1-corinthians-15-29
As someone else here has already pointed out, no one in the Bible, either Christ or the Apostles, ever sanctioned baptism for the dead as a Christian ordinance.
Instead, in 1 Corinthians 15:29, Paul is arguing for a general belief in the possibility of human resurrection, and uses what is probably a local pagan practice to illustrate his point, because not even the local pagan baptizers of the dead (and there were such folks near Corinth) would do so unless there were a resurrection coming in which to collect the hoped for benefit.
But Paul never says, “Therefore, you go do this.” As an attorney, I see this sort of mistake all the time in legal analysis. A court writes an opinion, and uses some illustration to make a point. But it’s not the holding, not the endpoint of the logic of the opinion, just a decoration used to enlighten the reader along the way.
Yet the young lawyer (or the old lawyer who’s a poor reader) latches onto the illustration as if it were a statement of law, which it is not, and in court they go down in flames because they could not make the distinction. But the judge can. And the better attorney can. Find the holding, and go with that. Use the illustrations as the writer used them. No more. No less.
I am reformed in my theology. One of the lesser known but very valuable aspects of that tradition is known as the Regulative Principle. Realizing that the Bible is the very word of God, we have an extremely serious obligation to be sure we do not impose burdens on the human soul that God Himself does not impose. We therefore cannot make an obligation out of something which no person in Scripture issued as a command to the Church. That was the error of the Pharisees, and Jesus condemned them severely for it.
And what are those things posed in Scripture as commands of action to Christians, as under the authority of Christ and the Apostles? Have faith in Jesus. Reject false christs. Flee from idolatry. Flee from sexual sin. Wait patiently for Jesus to return. Do good while you wait. Love each other. Love your enemy. On and on I could go.
But there is no command in the Bible to baptize surrogate believers for dead nonbelievers. Not only does Paul use strictly descriptive rather than imperative language, but he never even tells us whether the “dead” being vicariously baptized were believers or not. And of course that’s not his point, so why should he mention it?
And so the Regulative Principle informs us that in the absence of such a command, we not only have no authority from God to impose such a practice on believers, but that if we do so impose, without authority, we usurp the role of God, and make ourselves greater than him. God sets the terms of his own worship. He has told us what we need to do, and we sin if we either subtract from it or add to it practices that have no command authority from Him.
Remember the sin under Moses of the two sons of Aaron? What was their crime, that was so great God struck them dead for it? It was offering to God a form of worship which He did not command, burning an incense other than the one God required. Strange fire, as it is called.
Happily, God is a God of mercy, and he knows we sometimes wander from his way through ignorance or misinformation, and he hardly ever strikes us down immediately for our many errors. Else who could serve him?
But he does require of us to live according to the light he has given us. If some folks still mistakenly but innocently think they are helping out by baptism for the dead, God is their judge. Not me. But those who do lay claim to understanding the Scripture, if they impose a false and pagan practice on well-meaning but uninformed individuals, they will be held to a higher and sterner standard. Few stripes and many stripes.
Jeff, I take you to be a man of integrity. I hope you will take these words as from love and not vainglory. The wounds of a friend are faithful.
Peace,
SR
You seem to have something against the idea of honoring the Constitution of the United States...
Only unAmerican liberals call me a thug...
especially a “Constitution thug”
I’ll take that as a badge of honor of sorts...
No matter if you mind or not...
My ancestors fought and died for this country...
and my pastor said to me the other day...
“Veterans deserve our thanks” as he thanked me for my service to our country...
My pastor always announces in advance that he and the church plan to recognize the service of the veterans in our congregation...
and he speaks of God and how God has blessed our nation ..
But then my pastor is another of what you term a “Constitution thug”
On Sunday I’ll ptobasbly cry as usual...
Tennessee Nana
US Veteran
Zealots and the the outside world never mix well. Am so thankful for the 2nd Amendment which protects me from these nutcases.
Deb, you’re cute, but I’m past the ridicule stage. This is deadly serious to me. I hate that the GOP foisted this person on us. I hate that the GOP electorate was so easily duped by lies. And I really hate that it fosters division among those who should be united in peace. I understand your desire to use guilt to manipulate people into voting against their conscience. I disagree with it as a technique, but I really do understand it. You may not care about my vote in particular (that’s fine), but you do care about the outcome, and that’s good. I care about it too. I don’t want my family growing up under such oppression. But I’m not going to tweak my conscience for you, or anybody else. Sorry. I don’t answer to you, and you don’t answer to me. So be it.
Given the Mormon church’s way of not putting up with the arguments of unbelievers within the church, (which is currently destroying many Christian congregations) it is going to be challenging for Mormons to go through this process of being center stage with Romney.
Ridicule is the name of the political game these days and triple for Republicans. Triple that ridicule for the added deminision of religion in a Republican candidate. You will find out if your church is strong because it is closely controlled and doubts are supressed, or if it is strong on it’s own foundation because Mormons are going to be exposed to every piece of dirt that can be conjured. Romney is uncapping the lid.
Good luck as you guys venture out into the public! The other Christian groups, especially the young who take the rejection to heart, have not stood up together for their faith and Christian way of life so well.
You are aware this is the Religion Forum aren’t you, that’s where religious issues are discussed. If you don’t want to discuss the issues (this thread mormonism), by actually adding to the discussion, maybe you shouldn’t get on the thread.
So, calling people names, ridiculing their convictions and opinions is not enough, now you mock God Almighty.
How sad for you, that this is the level you and other Romney supporters have sunk.
and Joey Smith got excommunicated from the Methodist Church...
and the Presbyterian Church...
and although Joey Smith badmouthed them for doing so ..
I know that BM will say as he said in Post #4
“I have to stand up for the Methodist Church and the Presbyterian Church’s right to excommunicate those members who don’t agree with the Christian doctrine.”
it is going to be challenging for Mormons to go through this process of being center stage with Romney.
_____________________________________________
NAH not a bit of it...
The Mormons are center stage with Harry Reid...
and Harry Reid has been rtecently Man of the year for the Mormons
BTW Harry Reid is a temple Mormon...
Thats the top 15% who are in good standing and allowed to go into the temple...
just as Willard does...
You see pushing abortion and same sex marriage doesnt get you excommunicated or banned from the Mormon cult...
Its not believing in dear leader Joey Smith of his rag the book of mormon or paying your union dues that the mormon gods object too...
“The lds-org denies that Jesus is the Creator, that everything was created BY Him.”
where do you folks get these ideas about mormon beliefs? the mormon church absolutely believes that Christ created this world and everything in it. please explain what is meant by the scripture you reference: “He was with God in the beginning.” I assume He is Christ.
So, is this scripture saying that God and Christ are separate entities? that’s how it sounds to me. If i were at an event with my father at the beginning of that event, i would also say that i was with my father at the beginning. it would not mean that i am also my own father.
i just don’t understand scripturally [KVJ] where Christ and God the Father are the same entity. why would Christ be asking the Father to remove this cup in the Garden of Gethsemane, but Thine will be done, if he and God were the same?? would he be asking himself whether to go ahead with the crucifixion or not? it just doesn’t make sense to me.
‘I see that as no reason to accept a follower of Joseph Smith into the White House”
you don’t have to. you can just accept a follower of Mohamed instead. 4 more years of BO will be the final nail in the coffin of America that i know and love.
Just to refresh your memory “iwonder”, lds do not worship the same God or Jesus as Christians.
“In bearing testimony of Jesus Christ, President Hinckley spoke of those outside the Church who say Latter-day Saints ‘do not believe in the traditional Christ.’ ‘No, I don’t. The traditional Christ of whom they speak is not the Christ of whom I speak.” (LDS Church News Week ending June 20, 1998, p. 7).
Jesus is a creation, the product of relations between god and his goddess wife who used to be people from another world (McConkie, Bruce, Mormon Doctrine, p. 192, 321, 516, 589).
The first spirit to be born in heaven was Jesus (Mormon Doctrine, p. 129)
God himself, was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! It is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how He came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)
We are brethren and sisters of Satan as well as of Jesus. It may be startling doctrine to many to say this; but Satan is our brother. Jesus is our brother. (Apostle George Q. Cannon, March 11th, 1894, Collected Discourses, compiled by Brian Stuy, vol. 4, p. 23)
God the Father is a perfected, glorified, holy Man. (Mormon Doctrine, by Bruce McConkie, p. 742)
“Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..”
1Corinthians 15:
[12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[14] And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
[15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[17] And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
[18] Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
[19] If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
[23] But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.
[24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
[25] For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
[26] The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
[27] For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
*************
[28] And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
**************
[29] Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
TennNanna: Please explain what is meant by verse 28 where it says that the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him? Who is the Son? and who is Him?
Also, please clarify for my ignorance, what is verse 29 telling us? “why are they then baptized for the dead?” who is being baptized for the dead?
Based on all your comments, i’m sure you have some religious training to help me understand what these scriptures from the KJV of the Holy Bible are saying to us? thanks.
“But all of a sudden, calling a non-Christian religion what it is counts as “bashing.” Nonsense.”
So, if you are a mainstream Christian of some well know denomination, and a group of people claimed that you weren’t Christian because your particular Christian denomination [say Methodist] wasn’t really Christian because you weren’t, lets say, a Baptist, you wouldn’t feel that you were being “bashed” by being called a non-Christian?
Kid you must have thought enough of my comment
“Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..”
to put that part in quotes and repeat it...
Just go with it...
it is what it is...
Dead dunking is blasphemeous and unBiblical..
Oh I was just suggesting that Buckeye might want to feel the same protection towards Christian churches as he does about the Mormon religion...
Buckeye had said in Post #4
“I have to stand up for the Mormon Church’s right to “temple decommit” or excommunicate or whatever they want to call it those members who don’t agree with the doctrine.”
Actually today Joey Smith the inventor of the Mormon religion (and an avowed racist) would be excommunicated for polygamy and not living up to and agreeing with the Mormon doctrines ...
as would Brigham Young who also was a polygamist and owned slaves and had some shocking things to say about people with dark skin...
and also several of the “fathers” of Willard Romney...
Out they would go on their royal Mormon family hinnies...
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