Preaching Hell in a Tolerant Age Brimstone for the broad-minded.

Dallas Baptist University ^ | 1997 | Tim Keller

[Gamecock]

Ping.

[RitaOK]

Salvation is a life long labor of lovel, that immulates the labor of love exhibited by our loving Saviour on His Way of the Cross to hang there crucified unto death.

That labor and understanding is made clear in your own statement. I didn’t get all that until I became Catholic in 2000. I was emersed in victorious salvation already quite said, done, guaranteed, beyond the need for discussion and meditation.

As you kindly remind here, is your point that what you labor to understand, attain, you naturally will more appreciate. Thank you.

[jacquej]

bookmark, because I am struggling.

[WXRGina]

Excellent! Ping for later!

[Nea Wood]

This article explains things very well. Ping to read and really savor later.

[boatbums]

Thank you for posting this. I really think in the age we live in many even "religious" people shun talking about hell. It is as if they refuse to contemplate that the God of love we all hope for is somehow also a God of judgment and wrath. There have been numerous arguments on the RF at times about whether or not Almighty God is capable of wrath - as if it must be a negative attribute. But, as this article brings out, it is definitely NOT an attribute that is wrong or impossible for the Creator of all that exists to have. In fact, it is because of His great love that hell MUST be a real place.

There are a few religions out there that do not believe in a literal hell. They think that after a time, all who do not "make it" to heaven cease to exist - annihilation. It is interesting that the Hindu religion teaches that the ultimate destination is not heaven but Nirvana which is the same as nothingness or, in the same sense, annihilation. This concept makes it almost a desirable thing to finally cease to have a consciousness - cease to be - and get wrapped up into a universal consciousness. Yet, we know that this is a lie. There IS a conscious existence after death and it will either be with Almighty God in heaven or separation from His presence for eternity in the place called hell. How deceptive is the enemy of men's souls - the devil - who slyly tries to convince us that there ultimately is no consequence for rejecting God - that the worst we have to worry about is we just cease to exist and we won't care because we won't know anything anymore - there will no longer BE a me.

Jesus spoke about the place called hell numerous times. In fact, so many times that it is nonsense for anyone to assert he didn't talk about it. We know if he talked about it, then it does exist (or will) and that God does not desire for anyone to go there but wants ALL to come to repentance. But we have a choice to make - choose to follow God's way or reject His way for the myriad other ways that have been created by men and women that cannot save us from hell. God's way is through the cross. Not what we must do for God but what He has done for us and offers to us as a free gift that we accept by faith. Without faith it is impossible to please God. He made a way for us - but it is HIS way and it is the only way.

[CottShop]

[[Thank you for posting this. I really think in the age we live in many even “religious” people shun talking about hell.]]

Many people who call themselves Christians (who never really accepted Christ as Savior, but who like to be seen as ‘Christian’) don’t liek hte mention of Hell- Hell, they even try to make it a ‘hate crime’ to tell peopel they are4 lost and goign to hell

A study of ‘Soverienty’ and Righteousness’ Show that God HATES sin- and the verse i nthe bible taklking about ‘for God ‘so loved the world’ might infact not mean EVERYONE but rather ‘so loved His own in the World’- If this is the case, Then God MUST infact hate sinners as well as the sin- and an all knowing God who knows who will and won’t be saved might infact never love those who don’t, not becasue He isn’t a God of love, He is, but because He hates sin with a righteous anger toward it and those who live in it-

Another point you make abotu Christ talking about hell- He not only talked about it, but He infact went there in death to preach the Word of God to those in Hell’s eternal captivity so that they would udnerstand that He is infact The Christ and that God’s word is Truth

[[It is interesting that the Hindu religion teaches that the ultimate destination is not heaven but Nirvana which is the same as nothingness or, in the same sense, annihilation.]]

Lemme tell ya folks- I had peritinitus when I was 17, and I had an NDE (near death experiuence) only I didn’t ascend into heaven toward a bright light- Nope- IO went the other way- into hell (whether tghis was an actual experience or just a trick of a dying mind I can’t tell you- but it was VERY vivid and I stil lrecal it to this day as though it just happened)

Well, while ‘in hell’ I was given a test- I had to count these sounds (I think it was the Docs asking me to count something while I waqs convulsing) and I tried to count htem, but htey got too fast- I began to weep- then this voice said “Don’t worry, you don’t exist- nothign exists” (I beleive thgsi was a trick of the evil one because none of it was biblical, I beleive the evil one may have caused these visions to try to shake my faith whoudl I surive, which I did of course)

Why am I recountign htis? Becasue the Hindus call ‘nothingness’ ‘Nirvana’? Nope- When I heard that voice tell me ‘don’t worry, you don’t exist’ I felt absolute nothingness (yet soemhow I was conscious of being in this state of nothingness’ and it was OVERWHELMINGLY frightening and lonely

Imagine being compeltely alone- forever, not able to see anything- feel, hear, experience anything- forever- not good folks- I only experienced perhaps a few seconds of it and it shook me to my core when I was revived- so much so I grabbed the Docs’ coat and tried to relate the whole experince to her- I was shaking- it was very unnerving

[[This concept makes it almost a desirable thing to finally cease to have a consciousness - cease to be - and get wrapped up into a universal consciousness.]]

My experience was wholly unbiblical, and it was most likely due to a dying brain burning with fever, however, again, it was a very vivid experience, and one that I think the evil one meant for evil (to shake my faith should i survive [I’m not sure if Satan has access to the thoughts of Christians or not, I don’;t beleive he does, but something caused some faith shaking vision of nothingness]) but perhaps some good can come from the fact that I experienced ‘nothingness’ or a ‘cosmic consciousness’ (which apparently a lot of peopel htink we might slip into after death) and it was NOT the Nirvana that many seem to think it would be-

Being a ‘consciousness in nothingness’ is a frightening fearful thing- to know you are compeltely alone, with no hope of meeting with others for eternity, is NOT the Nirvana many seem to think it will be- Being conscious of your complete aloneness is a very heavy burden to bear for eternity- it will drive the consciousness to insanity it would seem

sorry for carrying on- but what you wrote kinda struck me because I have had an experience similiar to what you described

[Anti-Hillary]

bump

[CottShop]

Many liek ot think of God loving everyone, and just kinda winking and nodding at sin with an ‘understanding’ attitude- however, God’s word makes it clear there are infact those He does hate

Psalm 5:5, “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”

Psalm 11:5, “The Lord tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates.”

Lev. 20:23, “Moreover, you shall not follow the customs of the nation which I shall drive out before you, for they did all these things, and therefore I have abhorred them.”

Prov. 6:16-19, “There are six things which the Lord hates, yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: 17 Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 A heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, 19 A false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers.”

Hosea 9:15, “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”

People are fond of saying ‘God hates the sin, but loves the sinner, but the above verses show that that simply isn’t true- And while some mgiht be offended at ‘hell-fire and brimstone’ messages, the FACT is that eternity in hell is a fearful thing that should be avoided at all costs, and if it takesw shaking someoen up by showing them the reality of the consequenses of their sin to shake them out of their sinful state to fall at the feet of Christ and ask forgiveness, then the hell-fire and brimstones messages are what’s needed today-

The Evil One wants folks to feel as though God is ‘very tolorant’ and understanding and will allow them into heaven becasue they ‘weren’t so bad’ in life, however, that is NOT what the bible teaches- The bible teraches a Soveriegn Righteous God who MUST punish Unsaved sinners and who MUST seperate thsoe unsaved sinners from Himself and Heaven becasue where God is, where Truth is, sin can NOT be present

[[and the final form of hate is indifference.]]

And that is precisely the condition this world is in as of late because we have gotten AWAY from the knowledge that God is a jealous and vengeful God Who HATES sin and sinners, and instead we’ve created God ijn our own image and now think He is a very tolorant God who excuses sin readily- The Evil one has managed to pull this off quite effectively unfortunately

[[It is only because of the doctrine of judgment and hell that Jesus’ proclamation of grace and love are so brilliant and astounding.]]

Sadly, due to ‘piolitical correctness’ This concept has been discarded in favor of preaching an ‘aqll loving’ God apaprently in an attempt to make God more ‘palatable’ to people lost in sin.

I am particularly drawn to this thread becasue I was born again under a hell-fire and brimstone message, and I thank God that the pastor had integrity enough to actually preach God’s word isntead of sugar coating His word to make it more desireable to hte unsaved-

I don’t know if you’ve ever read Pink’s ‘A Soverign God’ or not, but you can find it online- it’s kindaq hardcore calvanism (I think)it’s definately old School, and it really woke me up to just how much God hates sin. It’s a rugged read- and like I said, I think it trends toward Calvanism a bit, but not too severely, it focuses mainly on God’s righteous soveriengty- I’ll see if I can find the link to online version if you’re itnerested

[CottShop]

meh- I had the title wrong it was “THE SOVEREIGNTY
OF GOD”

Hee’s the link if you’re itnerested- It’s a real ‘smakc you in the face’ read, but it’s also a wakeup call too- A W Pink is a good writer, and fairly spot on Here’s the link

http://www.reformed.org/books/pink/index.html

[ReformationFan]

Excellent. Thanks for posting. The doctrine of hell is not taught as it should be in many churches today.

[good1]

There are a couple of statements in the article that I would like to address:

: "I don't think God would send a person who lives a good life to hell just for holding the wrong belief."

"I can't believe in a God who sends people to suffer eternally. What kind of loving God is filled with wrath?"

The answer to these kinds of statements is that they have a defective view of God. It is a view of God that is too low. All sin is against God (Psalm 51), and God is an infinite person, therefore, sin is an infinite crime and is, therefore, fully deserving of an infinite punishment--eternity in hell.

Another point I would address is that in this article, which is good, by the way, is that it seems to describe sin as simply an action that men and women do. A better understanding of it is that sin is action that results from a sinful nature. Everyone who possesses this sinful, or fallen, nature can do nothing else but commit acts of sin. The postmodern man or woman needs to go back to the doctrines of God, man, and sin (theology, anthropology, and harmartiology) and get straight on these things; then they will easily understand the doctrine of hell and eternal punishment.

[good1]

One other point to make on this subject; most Christian people who do believe in hell as the Bible describes it, still don't like the idea of it.

But once we correctly understand God, we embrace the idea of hell as well as the fact of hell with full endorsement with no mental reservation. It has pleased God to punish unbelievers in hell for eternity. This is the Lord's doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes. Divine retributive justice is a glorious attribute of God.

[good1]

I think it trends toward Calvanism [Calvinism] a bit

Oh, it trends a lot towards Calvinism. You were right in your previous statement it’s kinda hardcore calvanism. But Calvinism is not something to run away from or avoid, especially on matters of the sovereignty of God and the Doctrines of Grace.

[Gamecock]

A better understanding of it is that sin is action that results from a sinful nature. Everyone who possesses this sinful, or fallen, nature can do nothing else but commit acts of sin.

Theologian RC Sproul often says, and his quote was used in some vampire movie: "We are not sinners because we sin, we sin because we are sinners."

[BibChr]

I offered some thoughts in response over at Pyro.

Ping to the list, if you like.

(c:

[Gamecock]

You make some great points.

I live in upstate NY and attend a Dutch reformed Church, they don’t know what to do with a Presbyterian like me. ;-)

Anyway, I was discussing Keller with a couple of the Elders and they expressed some concerns over his preaching. They couldn’t quite put their finger on the cause for concern. I asked if it was fair to say that Tim Keller was the right guy to preach to those in the big city, but he would not be right for our church. Conversly our pastor is the perfect preacher for our congregation, but not for the city. I appealed to Paul’s charge to be all things to all people.

They seemed satisfied with that picture.

[good1]

As is typical of Sproul, that is very well put. It is so true. I had not heard that the line was in a movie before. Thanks for mentioning it.