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Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith tangles with a quirk of Arkansas history
Washington Post ^ | May 20, 2012

Posted on 06/08/2012 8:21:53 PM PDT by Colofornian

“There’s families all scattered in through this area who had ancestors in that, so there is a tinge of anti-Mormonism in this area, a little bit of bias I suppose,” said Republican Roy Ragland...

SNIP

The Mountain Meadows Massacre remains one of the darkest episodes in the history of Mormonism...Romney addressed it during his 2007 presidential campaign in response to a reporter’s question.

“That was a terrible, awful act carried out by members of my faith,” he told the Associated Press. “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.”

SNIP

In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre, including a towering wooden cross erected just six years ago. On it is carved a biblical saying: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord.”

Historians believe the wagon train of 30 families, laden with cattle and other goods, set off in early 1857...

Their journey took them through Utah...

...local Mormon leaders decided to attack the wagon train with the help of a local Native American tribe, on whom they planned to lay the blame. After days of exchanging fire, a Mormon leader approached the camp to offer safe passage. But it was a ruse: The Mormon militia massacred the men and women and many of the children, 120 in all. Seventeen...were spared, and adopted by local families until federal authorities intervened to return them to Arkansas...

Descendants’ groups headquartered here...have...sometimes clashed with, the Mormon Church to create a public memorial at the site...which sits on church property...

“It’s an emotional thing for us,” said Phil Bolinger, president of the Mountain Meadows Monument Foundation. “When you come of age, when you mature, things to do with your own blood kin becomes more important and you become passionate about it.”...

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: History; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: arkansas; illinois; inman; lds; mittromney; mormon; mountainmeadows; nauvoo; obama
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The Mormon History Association 2012 Conference is having a conference in three weeks where a section of its sessions will be devoted to this Mormon terrorist activity.

From the article: In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre, including a towering wooden cross erected just six years ago. On it is carved a biblical saying: “Vengeance is mine; I will repay saith the Lord.”

A BYU rep (Lawrence G. Coates BYU-Idaho) will cover: “Healing Bitterness: The Mountain Meadows Massacre” -- showing that Mormons still recognize they've done very little to alleviate the bitterness over these past 150 some years... (Mina Estevez is also speaking on: “Murdering History: Literature and the Mountain Meadows Massacre”

Do we all remember the images of some Muslims 'round the world dancing over 9/11 in 2001?

These were Muslims not only excusing the behavior of the terrorists, but were celebrating it.

That's essentially -- at least in part -- what we had Mormon leaders doing...

Re: the first Memorial placed @ the massacre site: "The original Rock Cairn and Cross were desecrated by Brigham Young on May 25, 1861 as recorded in church historian and forth President of the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS, Wilford Woodruffs diary. The Tyrannical Prophet Brigham Young stated at the time of the desecration; 'Vengeance is mine and I have had a little.' The Rock Cairn was leveled to the ground."
Source: BRIGHAM YOUNG DESECRATED THE CHRISTIAN CROSS AND ROCK CAIRN

In 1858, Young was given a pardon for his part in the MMM atrocities.

Young and other Mormon leaders have all excused the Mormon mass-murderers -- at least 42 known Mormons by never bringing them to justice...or even ex-communicating them (two were; but were reinstated later -- one while still adlive; the other after his death)...

From the article: Romney addressed it during his 2007 presidential campaign in response to a reporter’s question. “That was a terrible, awful act carried out by members of my faith,” he told the Associated Press. “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.”

The mass-murderers included an Lds bishop, an Lds "to be" bishop, two stake presidents, a counselor to a stake president...

(So much for people -- like Mitt Romney -- claiming there's "murderers" in every church...such "murderers" in other churches aren't readily elevated to--or retained as -- church leadership...like what happened with these mass murderers)

One of the Mormon stake presidents had been in that role about a year when the massacre occurred...as a "reward" for his part in the slaughter, Lds "prophets" Brigham Young and John Taylor left him in that role. He (William Dame) wound up serving 24 years as an Lds stake president (1856-1880).

(Oh...and for those who highlight Muslim terrorism to the exclusion of Mormon terrorism, did God frown on Mormon terrorists less because they were Mormon?)

Also, dozens of other Mormons were involved in the MMM (and who are also named even by Lds sources) -- these are ones who had probable "lesser" accomplice/perp roles.

1 posted on 06/08/2012 8:22:01 PM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Muslim turned communists turned hate-whitarian Christian is above reproach, but Romney is responsible for actions of Mormons in 1858, back when the US government was persecuting Mormons?


2 posted on 06/08/2012 8:26:21 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: All
From the article: The Mormon militia massacred the men and women and many of the children, 120 in all. Seventeen...were spared, and adopted by local families until federal authorities intervened to return them to Arkansas...

This is typical Mormon PR as its best (worst).

I can't tell you how many times I've seen sources claim that Mormon families "adopted" 17 of the youngest children. All as if this was some "compassionate" loving thing to do.

Funny that when Charles Lindberg's baby was kidnapped, 'twas kidnapping...but when Mormons kidnapped 17 infants, toddlers and primary grade kids -- all while slaughtering some 7 and 8 yo at the same time (as well as older kids) -- it was an "adoption."

Mormons held these children hostage for about two years until the Army had to come and rescue them...Notice, no effort was made by these Mormons or Mormon leaders to return the children over all that time...nor were these Mormons arrested for kidnapping.

3 posted on 06/08/2012 8:27:05 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: rmlew

Thank you, WashPost. As an expert at undermining good people, places, and things, you’ve helped us greatly. If all you can find to smear Romney with is MountainMeadows from 1858, you’ve convinced us that Romney must be a really good man. We’re definitely going to vote for him now.


4 posted on 06/08/2012 8:32:50 PM PDT by faithhopecharity
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To: Colofornian

***In northwestern Arkansas, at least two monuments commemorate the massacre,****

Two other wagon trains were also attacked. The Miltmore Train and the Shepherd Train. Booth suffered loss of life from attackers some of who were blond blue eyed bearded, spoke English and dressed like Indians.

Fancher once owned 200 acres about two miles south of where I live.

There is also a monument in downtown Harrison, Arkansas where the train started from.


5 posted on 06/08/2012 8:36:10 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Anything Goes, Phantom of the Opera, Nice work if you can get it, EVITA. On BROADWAY last week.!)
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To: Colofornian

Brigham Young not only kidnapped those 17 children after murdering their unarmed parents in cold blood...

He also held them for ransom...

The US government had to pay him $10,000 (1860 money) to get them back...


6 posted on 06/08/2012 8:36:20 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: rmlew; Zakeet
...1858, back when the US government was persecuting Mormons?

#1...If Mormons were 1858 victims of the U.S. govt...(actually the massacre occurred in 1857)...tell us who the supposed actual victims were?

There was a threatened war that ne'er occurred other than the Mormons causing the deaths of some of the army stationed @ Ft. Bridger [and that wasn't due to any hand-to-hand or shooting combat].

#2 If you try falling back on prosecution of polygamy, that didn't occur in the 1850s. Congress didn't begin addressing laws aimed @ Mormon polygamy until the 1860s thru 1880s.

7 posted on 06/08/2012 8:37:56 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

***Mormons held these children hostage for about two years until the Army had to come and rescue them***

In one incident when the Army rescued one child it took a lot of military discipline by the officers to prevent the troops from lynching every mormon they found.

Another told how the Stake house at Cedar City stank like a slaughter house for two years because of the bloody clothing from the murdered was stored there.


8 posted on 06/08/2012 8:42:40 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (Anything Goes, Phantom of the Opera, Nice work if you can get it, EVITA. On BROADWAY last week.!)
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To: rmlew

The US government did not persecute mormons, that is part of the mormonism revisionist history.


9 posted on 06/08/2012 8:47:08 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: faithhopecharity; colorcountry
Thank you, WashPost. As an expert at undermining good people, places, and things, you’ve helped us greatly. If all you can find to smear Romney with is MountainMeadows from 1858...

#1, Romney's the one who was a poor excuse for a human being with the horrid excuse of “There are bad people in any church, and it’s true of members of my church, too.” (So Romney boomeranged this back on himself by trying to excuse away these mass murderers...Romney utterly failed to mention that Lds only helped to bring one murderer to justice -- out of dozens & dozens -- and didn't even ex-communicate any of the murderers save two -- and reinstated BOTH of them...one, John D. Lee, well after his death)

The Huge problem with the 19th & 20th century Mormon church wasn't just the mass murderers; but all those leaders who covered up their murders...

#2, if you're complaining about this being brought up within the timing of an election year, will you rail on the Mormon History Association, too -- when in three weeks -- they will devote a whole session section to this topic?

The session section is entitled: From Mountain Meadows to Modern Sympathies:

A BYU rep (Lawrence G. Coates BYU-Idaho) will cover: “Healing Bitterness: The Mountain Meadows Massacre” -- showing that Mormons still recognize they've done very little to alleviate the bitterness over these past 150 some years... (Mina Estevez is also speaking on: “Murdering History: Literature and the Mountain Meadows Massacre”

Source: Mormonism in Its Expanding Global Context: Invitations to New Interpretation and Understanding

10 posted on 06/08/2012 8:53:46 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: faithhopecharity
We’re definitely going to vote for him now.

Hey newbie, who is 'we'?

Romney must be a really good man.

Romney is a liberal and a cult leader - NOTHING good about that.

11 posted on 06/08/2012 9:03:50 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Tennessee Nana
Brigham Young not only kidnapped those 17 children after murdering their unarmed parents in cold blood...He also held them for ransom...The US government had to pay him $10,000 (1860 money) to get them back...

Yes.

Hell is eternal to deal with such notorious legacies.

12 posted on 06/08/2012 9:06:40 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: All
Romney addressed it during his 2007 presidential campaign in response to a reporter’s question. “That was a terrible, awful ACT [singular] carried out by members of my faith,” he told the Associated Press.

Notice the pathetic sheer reductionism exercised by Mitt Romney in 2007.

He reduced...
...mass murder...
...carried out over several days [some were killed/wounded in the initial siege attempt]...
...Kidnapping of 17 children & held hostage by Brigham Young for ransom...
...Theft of prize horses...
...$...
...wagons...
...clothes off the corpses...
...you name it...
...generations of cover-up...
...all to ONE single "act"...

Mitt Romney is a pathetic human being.

13 posted on 06/08/2012 9:11:58 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

You really want to go down this path? If we want to hold people accountable for the actions of their ancestors, I can assure you none of our hands are clean.


14 posted on 06/08/2012 9:12:44 PM PDT by JoSixChip (We had an opportunity to get Newt, but you blew it and now we get mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
Mormons were the target of a massacre that was never prosecuted and an extermination order by a governor of Missouri in 1838. Mormonism's founder was lynched by Protestants. I'd say there was plenty of sectarian violence to go around, back in the day.

The Utah War, which was President Buchanan's attempt to exterminate the Mormons under the pretext of putting down a rebellion, fizzled out because of opposition from both federal and state officials, but the fact that this attempt at mass murder ever got started is pretty amazing in itself:

At the end of June 1858 the Army troops under General Johnston entered the Salt Lake Valley unhindered. Riding through the still empty streets of Salt Lake City on June 26, an embittered Johnston was heard to say that he would have given "his plantation for a chance to bombard the city for fifteen minutes."[58] Lt. Col. Charles Ferguson Smith stated that he "did not care a damm who heard him; he would like to see every dammed Mormon hung by the neck."

15 posted on 06/08/2012 9:12:59 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Placemarker


16 posted on 06/08/2012 9:14:51 PM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: Colofornian

Come on Colo...you have added to the title with the “[1st 9/11 terrorism was Lds]” which is another deliberate attempt to equate the LDS Church with our nation’s enemies.

As I have stated to you and others before e I will not sit back and countenance such a willful, and blatant distortion.

What happened in Mountain Meadows 155 years ago was a horrific, terrible act. One man was executed for it...but a bunch more should have been. There is no excuse or justification for what they did.

However, it was not the 1st act of “terrorism” on these shores by any stretch, nor was it the worst up until that time.

Others were committed by Insians, and also by whites (including by Christians) from the earliest times of the colonization of this country.

I listed them once before in another thread that brought up the Mountain Meadows Massacre to try and smear the Church today.

Romney spoke to this himself and called it what it was.

Sadly, there are evil people in any gathering of any appreciable numbers of people almost anywhere.

God rest the souls of those settlers who were killed and bless and comfort their descendants.

And God bless and rest those LDS people who were massacred and killed in Missouri and Illinois 15-20 years earlier when the LDS were brutally persecuted and pushed out into the Intermountain West to the Great Basin.

Both acts of murder were horrific, wrong, and inexcusable.


17 posted on 06/08/2012 9:17:33 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Zhang Fei; rmlew
Mormons were the target of a massacre that was never prosecuted and an extermination order by a governor of Missouri in 1838...

#1...Anything you mention about Missouri or IL had NOTHING to do with the US Govt...

RMLew's comment was: ...1858, back when the US government was persecuting Mormons? (which is what I addressed)

#2...Are you claiming that if a member of your family was killed in hostilities from 13 to 19 to 24 years prior, that it would somehow justify an unrelated mass murder of people BY mostly people NOT involved in the original conflict OF people NOT involved in the original conflict?

If you are, you've got pathetic reasoning skills.

#3...

What most people miss is the correct definition of "extermination" in the 1835 time period. Webster's Dictionary of 1828 under "exterminate" has: "Literally, to drive from within the limits or borders. Hence, 1. To destroy utterly; to drive away...."
Source: MORMONS - PERSECUTED, PERSECUTOR OR BOTH?

A Mormon author, George W. Givens, likewise pointed this out in his book 500 Little-Known Facts in Mormon History: Latter-day Saints have universally condemned the notorious Haun's Mill Massacre by a mom-militia shortly after Missouri Governor Boggs issued the infamous extermination order...a second look at the definition of the word "exterminate" as it was used in 1838, however, might cause us to take a second look at Governor Boggs as well. An American Dictionary of English Language, published in 1828, defines "exterminate" as "literally, to drive from within the limits or borders." (p. 26) Bonneville Books, 2004

Q What implications does this have?

A Simply put, beware of Mormon Victimology Mythology!

Mormon Victimology Mythology: Or How Mormon Historical Revisitionists often need a Paul Harvey type 'rest of the story' to hold them accountable for their strange gaps in their history!

Early Summer, 1838 -- July 4, in fact: (c) Joseph Smith's "partner in cult 'crime'" is Sidney Rigdon's.

Rigdon chose this date to give an "inflammatory" sermon re: independence of the church from mobocracy. Rigdon "warned of a war of EXTERMINATION between Mormons and their enemies if they were further threatened or harassed." (Leland H. Gentry, Church History, p. 343). Lds writer Max Parkin conceded that Rigdon's June 19 and July 4 messages "further incensed the public against expanding LDS influences." (Church History, p. 348).

If DU & other Mormons were given history questions on understanding the word "extermination" in 1830s America, they would flunk outright! Certainly, what we almost NEVER hear from contemporary Mormon posters is that apparently the first group to threaten the other with "extermination" in Missouri wasn't Gov. Boggs. 'Twas Lds leader Sidney Rigdon four months prior to that!

To add even more to the complexity of why people acted as they did in those Missouri 1830s, the Lds Church History; Selections from the Encyclopedia of Mormonism adds other reasons:
(a) Sidney Rigdon's June 19, 1838 "Salt Sermon" reinforced local Mormon opposition;
(b) Lds militia officer Sampson Avard initiated a vigilante group known as the Danites
(c) Gamecock posted an article a few years back with a few interesting excerpts:

Late October, 1838:

[Author had just cited Lds apostle Bruce McConkie]: McConkie's dramatic rhetoric fails to take into account the fact that the Haun's Mill massacre took place just one week after the battle of Crooked River. [Former BYU History professor] Quinn writes: "A generally unacknowledged dimension of both the EXTERMINATION ORDER and the Haun's Mill massacre, however, is that they resulted from Mormon actions in the Battle of Crooked River. Knowingly or not, MORMONS HAD ATTACKED STATE TROOPS, and this had a cascade effect… upon receiving news of the injuries and death of state troops at Crooked River, Governor Boggs immediately drafted his extermination order on 27 October 1838 because the MORMONS 'HAVE MADE WAR UPON THE PEOPLE OF THIS STATE.' Worse, the killing of one Missourian and mutilation of another while he was defenseless at Crooked River led to the mad-dog revenge by Missourians in the slaughter at Haun's Mill" (Origins of Power, p.100).
Secondary source: Violence in Early Mormonism - Was It All Unjust Persecution?

From this same article posted by Gamecock: If violence against a certain faith were the only way to determine truth, then certainly the Mormons themselves would have to recognize that our Christian faith was just as viable as theirs. Can a Mormon, off the top of his head, recall when the last Mormon was killed just because he was a Mormon? Certainly we have heard of Mormons being tragically killed while serving missions, but these cases involve circumstances other than true martyrdom (robberies, car accidents, being mistaken for CIA agents, etc). On the other hand, it is not uncommon to hear of Christians around the world who are being killed because they refuse to denounce their belief that Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life. While martyrdom seems to be a thing of the past for the Mormons, it is a common occurrence among those who have placed their total trust in the Jesus of the Bible.” (Bill McKeever)

18 posted on 06/08/2012 9:22:09 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

Next the Spanish Inquisition and the holy-screeds against Catholics. You should listen to them, because those posters on this forum believe that they speak for God, you know.

Don’t you just the “holier-than-thou” types that infect this forum? Hey! If you can’t prove your religion is true, criticize the others! That works!

It is a strange event when the psychotic obama followers join forces with they psychotic religious nutcases.


19 posted on 06/08/2012 9:37:40 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: Colofornian

My attempted point was merely that the WashPost is a very biased newspaper today. (I imagine you knew that already, of course.) I did not mean to whitewash the 1857 events in SW Utah. Thanks.


20 posted on 06/08/2012 9:40:47 PM PDT by faithhopecharity
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator

To: svcw

svcw, in Missouri and Illinois you are exactly right. The US Government was not involved with the persecution of the LDS people. It was local mobocracy, local and State governments who were involved. A petition was taken to the President by the LDS at the time and he responded that though he felt that their cause was just, he could not help them.

However, in the 1850s the situation was different. At that time it was a US Army that was coming to the LDS settlements around the Great Salt Lake and the quotes given on this thread by General Johnston of that Army and Colonel Smith as regards what they intended on the LDS people are accurate.

Luckily, the LDS had evacuated SLC and ultimately the impasse was resolved.


22 posted on 06/08/2012 9:43:58 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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Comment #23 Removed by Moderator

To: piytar

This thread is posted in the Religion Forum. Posts containing potty language or references to potty language are removed on the RF.


24 posted on 06/08/2012 9:52:22 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Colofornian
The Battle of Crooked River was a rescue mission mounted by a group of Mormons to retrieve fellow Mormons whom they thought were at risk of being massacred by the Missouri state militia, which in fact, had merely ejected Mormons from their property, which was confiscated in its entireity. The Missouri governor's extermination order might have been a *mere* expulsion order, but it resulted in the confiscation of all Mormon property in the state of Missouri without recompense. How would you feel if the state of California took all your property and kicked you out of the state?
25 posted on 06/08/2012 9:57:29 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Colofornian

Oh, one last thing (unless my other post got pulled, too): attacks on MittCare for something that happened that long ago are futile and make the critics look silly. Want to go afer Mitt? There’s a lot more fruitful and convincing targets re modern Mormonism and Romney’s liberal policies (MittCare, anti-gun, big govt, etc.) Those are relevant!


26 posted on 06/08/2012 10:03:30 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: faithhopecharity
My attempted point was merely that the WashPost is a very biased newspaper today. (I imagine you knew that already, of course.) I did not mean to whitewash the 1857 events in SW Utah. Thanks.

Thank you for the clarification

27 posted on 06/08/2012 10:04:30 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Religion Moderator

Arggg! I didn’t see that!!! SORRY! Came up on my “new posts” page. I didn’t realize this was in religion.

Sorry again!


28 posted on 06/08/2012 10:05:42 PM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
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To: Loud Mime
Don’t you just the “holier-than-thou” types that infect this forum?

Do you say this with a "I'm holier-than-thou infectious types" spirit?

29 posted on 06/08/2012 10:05:47 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Religion Moderator; piytar
This thread is posted in the Religion Forum. Posts containing potty language or references to potty language are removed on the RF.

Any chance we could get that policy extended to the other forums?

30 posted on 06/08/2012 10:12:37 PM PDT by Mycroft Holmes (<= Mash name for HTML Xampp PHP C JavaScript primer. Programming for everyone.)
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To: svcw; Colofornian
I suppose that there was no violence in Missouri in 1838 or in Illinois in 1844. I never said that LDS members were blameless. As for the massacre, supposedly one of the settlers won a group Darwin award by saying that he was one of the people who killed Joseph Smith.

At any rate, refighting the Mormon War is a tactic of the left right now. Romney is the nominee and aiding Obama will get us nowhere.

31 posted on 06/08/2012 10:16:16 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Jeff Head
However, it was not the 1st act of “terrorism” on these shores by any stretch, nor was it the worst up until that time.

Never said it was. I said it was "lst 9/11 terrorism"...Can you pinpoint OTHER terrorist acts occurring on American soil on Sept. 11 before 1857?

What happened in Mountain Meadows 155 years ago was a horrific, terrible ACT [singular]

Jeff, please see post #13. You make the same horrific reductionism Romney does by making a series of ACTS [plural] -- that, with the cover-up occurred over MANY generations of Mormons -- into one ACT.

Sadly, there are evil people in any gathering of any appreciable numbers of people almost anywhere.

Jeff, you & I both know that if the murder/kidnapping/theft extends to after-the-fact accomplices -- people who cover up the crime -- that the "exhaust" that settles on the people cannot only be blamed upon "the evil people" in question.

Tell me, Jeff: Name me a few Mormon leaders from 1857 to anybody in the 20th century who came forward to specifically implicate the Mormon slaughterers?

Because of this long-time Mormon silence, the fear that the Israelites showed in Dt. 21 re: an atonement for innocent blood shed -- rests upon the Utah Mormon people.

Deuteronomy 21: If someone is found slain, lying in a field in the land the Lord your God is giving you to possess, and it is not known who the killer was, 2 your elders and judges shall go out and measure the distance from the body to the neighboring towns. 3 Then the elders of the town nearest the body shall take a heifer that has never been worked and has never worn a yoke 4 and lead it down to a valley that has not been plowed or planted and where there is a flowing stream. There in the valley they are to break the heifer’s neck. 5 The Levitical priests shall step forward, for the Lord your God has chosen them to minister and to pronounce blessings in the name of the Lord and to decide all cases of dispute and assault. 6 Then all the elders of the town nearest the body shall wash their hands over the heifer whose neck was broken in the valley, 7 and they shall declare: “Our hands did not shed this blood, nor did our eyes see it done. 8 Accept this atonement for your people Israel, whom you have redeemed, Lord, and do not hold your people guilty of the blood of an innocent person.” Then the bloodshed will be atoned for, 9 and you will have purged from yourselves the guilt of shedding innocent blood, since you have done what is right in the eyes of the Lord. (Deut. 21:1-9)

32 posted on 06/08/2012 10:26:24 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Zhang Fei
The Battle of Crooked River was a rescue mission mounted by a group of Mormons to retrieve fellow Mormons whom they thought were at risk of being massacred by the Missouri state militia...

On October 18, 1838, Joseph Smith, Hyrum Smith, Lyman Wight, D. W. Patten at the head of 40 men made a descent on Gallatin, the county seat of Daviess, and they burned the only store and stole their goods. Previous to the 25th of October a great part of the Mormons residing in Caldwell County had returned home with their dividend of plunder.
* 6 days before this attack: • On October 25, 1838, the Battle of Crooked River: Mormon forces attacked (unknowingly?) the Missouri state militia under the command of Samuel Bogart. This incident became one of the principal points of conflicts in 1838 Missouri. The battle resulted in the death of three militia and the LDS leader, David Patten. One of the militia was taken prisoner by the Mormons. Source: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/mormonism/are-christians-persecuting-mormons

33 posted on 06/08/2012 10:31:48 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Zhang Fei
...it resulted in the confiscation of all Mormon property in the state of Missouri without recompense. How would you feel if the state of California took all your property and kicked you out of the state?

First of all, how again does this relate to 1857 Southern Utah?

Are you telling me that if 11 say Baptist or Presbyterian families in your area had their property confiscated today -- that some other Baptists or Presbyterians -- 19 years from now -- would be justified in committing mass murder against people who had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with that confiscation?

Such lack of reasoning absolutely astounds me!!!!

Where did I get 11 families?

Joseph Fielding Smith (lds "prophet") said mob of 500 (Church History, p. 135) no violence but threatened it July 23, 1833. Smith says "about 1200 members forced to leave Jackson co." (p. 209) but the committee which forced them out only specified 11 families according to Smith earlier in the book. They forced 9 of 11 families to leave within a few mos. warning -- and the two remaining would finish up their business goods (Smith, p. 135).

34 posted on 06/08/2012 10:46:19 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: rmlew
As for the massacre, supposedly one of the settlers won a group Darwin award by saying that he was one of the people who killed Joseph Smith.

Made-up hearsay.

No evidence whatsoever.

...refighting the Mormon War is a tactic of the left right now. Romney is the nominee and aiding Obama will get us nowhere.

Except if THAT was true, then Romney shouldn't have reduced what happened with his '07 comment. If it wasn't worth reliving, then he should have avoided addressing it.

He addressed it.

He excused it as if mass-murderers sit in the pews of EVERY church body.

He belittled & reduced it to one single ACT...vs. a series of murders over days, kidnappings over years, cover-up over generations, and theft over a lifetime... cover-up over

35 posted on 06/08/2012 10:49:49 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

Get over it; it happened over a 150 years ago. My own biological father was a real SOB bast##d, that doesn’t make me act like him.
I don’t like Romney as a candidate or a conservative, but if my choice is between him and an outright communist like Ostupid I known who I have to vote for.


36 posted on 06/08/2012 11:12:17 PM PDT by 5th MEB (Progressives in the open; --- FIRE FOR EFFECT!!)
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To: 5th MEB

Sorry. Mr. ROmneyCARE is a vicious backstabber
of conservatives and WOMEN (Gov. Palin) through
surrogates.

Therefore, this “quirk” (murders of Americans)
IS relevant.
The MSM will provide more shortly, no doubt.

And in any case:
We will NEVER vote for Romney, the liar, and
backstabber of Conservatives.


37 posted on 06/09/2012 2:46:47 AM PDT by Diogenesis ("Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. " Pres. Ronald Reagan)
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To: rmlew

As for the massacre, supposedly one of the settlers won a group Darwin award by saying that he was one of the people who killed Joseph Smith.
_____________________________________________

Not Joey Smith...

Parley P Pratt the 2nd great grandfather of Willard Mitt Romney...

Pratt had a harem of concubines and stole another mans wife to add to them...

He took her from her husband and children in Arkansas and went to California and Utah...

He was back in Arkansas and the wronged husband hunted him down there and killed him in early 1857...

Pratt was a leader in the Mormon religion, and since the people in the wagon train were also from there they got blamed as an excuse to murder them and steal the 300 blood horses and 1,000 cattle and the money and wagons and goods they had with them...

Supposed the story was that one of the men had the gun that killed Pratt...

How2ever he was stabbed to death...


38 posted on 06/09/2012 4:32:45 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: rmlew
I can understand your concern about ISLAM; but most folks KNOW about it; whereas MORMONism hides under rocks.


The worse any designated minority or alien group behaves in a liberal society, the bigger become the lies of Political Correctness in covering up for that group.

39 posted on 06/09/2012 5:27:18 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Colo, you are playing with semantics. Anyone talking about the Mountain Meadows Massacre speaks of it in the whole. I have no problem saying that every part of it was deplorable and an atrocity.

From those who planned it, to those who carried it out under the awful duplicity which they did, to those who covered it up, to those who attempted to take those children as their own. (That was not an act of compassion in the sense that they somehow saved those children out of love for them) They did it out of fear of their own beliefs, even given the unbelievable contradiction their murders already reigned down on them. They took those children to make them their own and it too was atrocious...all the way up to a trial for a single person for the murders who was hung when there should have been scores of defendents.

Anyone who took part in the killing and its planning should have been on trial. That too was atrocious.

There was no intentional dumbing down of the truth in my statement, Colo...you are just so invested in your commitment to attack anything LDS and believe the worse that you demand that every iota be spelled out by anyone LDS discussing it, even though it was 155 years ago.

For me, with Mountain Meadows that is fine. It all was an ugly, deplorable atrocity.

Just as any of those who took part in the planning or the killing and raping of LDS people at Hahns Mill, MO, Far West, MO, or in and around Navuoo, IL in the 1840s should have been brought to trial and executed for their crimes, not to mention the pilfering and theft of all of their homes, property, improvements, etc....but never were.

All of those terrible acts on both sides were travesties and atrocious and have no place in this nation or amongst any group of people who claim discipleship following Jesus Christ. Such actions, irregardless of which side of that coin, are clearly the anti-thesis of "Christian."

40 posted on 06/09/2012 5:28:52 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: rmlew
I can understand your concern about ISLAM; but most folks KNOW about it; whereas MORMONism hides under rocks.


Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith tangles with a quirk of Arkansas history is the title. It does NOT say...

Barak Obama’s Muslim faith tangles with a quirk of European history

41 posted on 06/09/2012 5:29:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

Every single Mormon, including Romney, is personally responsible for the Mountain Meadows Massacre, just as every single non-black person, including the Colofornian and me, is responsible for slavery (Go, Reparations, Go!), and just as every single non-Native-American is responsible for the massacre of “The Indians” in the 1800s and just as every single European is responsible for smallpox decimating the Native American populations in the 1600s.

It all makes sense to me.


42 posted on 06/09/2012 5:36:25 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: 5th MEB
Get over it; it happened over a 150 years ago. My own biological father was a real SOB bast##d, that doesn’t make me act like him.

Get over Obama! People can rightly claim he's a real (fill-in-the-blank) POTUS and candidate, that doesn't make it right that we elect a fellow socialist healthcare pioneer (Romney) like him.

43 posted on 06/09/2012 5:41:57 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian
Congress didn't begin addressing laws aimed @ Mormon polygamy until the 1860s thru 1880s.

And the Spineless MORMON leadership in Salt Lake City rolled right over; throwing their GOD under the bus!




Inasmuch as laws have been enacted by Congress forbidding plural marriage...
I hereby declare my intention to submit to those laws..."

~ Wilford Woodruff, 4th LDS President


44 posted on 06/09/2012 5:42:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
... the Spineless MORMON leadership in Salt Lake City rolled right over; throwing their GOD under the bus!

But; a whole new generation had come along since:


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)


45 posted on 06/09/2012 5:44:25 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: samtheman; Jeff Head
Answer just one simple question for me:

Name for me exactly when within the 20th century -- and with who -- the cover-up of the MMM finally ended within Mormonism?

46 posted on 06/09/2012 5:46:49 AM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Colofornian

Well, that is just a culture of death guy using the ‘mistakes were made’ damage control gambit. Culture of death will do what it does, and these seeds remain in the grooup’s history. If one’s roots are akin to the Manson Family, what will the eventual fruit look like?


47 posted on 06/09/2012 5:47:09 AM PDT by Psalm 144 ("I'm not willing to light my hair on fire to try and get support. I am who I am." - Willard M Romney)
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To: faithhopecharity
But, FHC, we would REALLY like a man who has at least SOME evidence of being able to discern the truth in office; do we not?
 
 
 
With SO many FACTS about MORMONism are being revealed these days; any person who has actually CHOSEN that religion must be doing so while ignoring the data being presented; almost ALL of it from Official MORMON sources.
 
 
So you've endured the spiel of the fresh faced young men who have come to your home, and told you the well rehearsed story of the Book of MORMON, and they want you to 'pray about it' to see if it is true or not.
 
They most likely will NOT have told you how it came to be...
 
 
 
 



"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




48 posted on 06/09/2012 5:52:44 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: faithhopecharity
...ignoring the data being presented...

The following are the LYING images that MORMONism has produced, KNOWING that they represent something FALSE!!
 
 
   

49 posted on 06/09/2012 6:01:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: faithhopecharity
Romney must be a really good man.

I know your reply was sarcasm, but the FACT remains that there are two ways of describing Mitt:

Either as a DECIEVED Mormon or as a DECEIVING Mormon.

I do not want either one to lead MY country.

I'll stick with the devil I know.

50 posted on 06/09/2012 6:05:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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