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Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith tangles with a quirk of Arkansas history
Washington Post ^ | May 20, 2012

Posted on 06/08/2012 8:21:53 PM PDT by Colofornian

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To: Elsie; catfish1957; Jeff Head
Well; did you attend a RACIST church for 31 of your years; never (evidently) ever speaking out about it?

Excellent Q, Elz.

Excellent Q of Romney...(we're waiting for the media to ask)

Oh, and btw, a good Q for Jeff Head, too, since he said he's been a member for 40 years.

So, Jeff we're you an adult 'tween the years of 1972 and early 1978? If so, did you speak out vs. Mormon racism then? If not, why not?

151 posted on 06/09/2012 2:57:51 PM PDT by Colofornian (Mom when I grow up, I want 2B like Ike. Mom when I grow up, I want 2B a god from Kolob like Mitt.)
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To: Elsie

I’m agreeing with you. How is that changing the subject?


152 posted on 06/09/2012 3:05:13 PM PDT by samtheman
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To: greyfoxx39
I think one of the worst things about mormonism is the brainwashing of young children.

Queer Nation is complaining BIG TIME about a young Indiana lad that sang, "HOMO's won't be in Heaven!" (Greensburg, IN)

They'll be protesting tomorrow at...


And the little devil receives a standing ovation from the congregation at Apostolic Truth Tabernacle Church in Greensburg, Indiana.  http://www.queerty.com/watch-toddler-sings-aint-no-homos-gonna-make-it-to-heaven-in-church-20120530/

Evidently the FAGS never heard of what happened to a whole bunch of them that tried protesting at LOT's door!
 
 

1 Corinthians 6:9-11  (NIV)

9 Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


153 posted on 06/09/2012 3:06:52 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian
Ahhhh...

But Mormon's DO have HECK in their allowable cursing vocabulary.

154 posted on 06/09/2012 3:14:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CommerceComet
While a totally-discredited Brigham Young wouldn't destroy all of Mormonism, it would be devastating to the Utah faction.

BULL!!

It would SAVE them of from DAMNATION!!!


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

155 posted on 06/09/2012 3:17:12 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: samtheman
Colofornian, Elsie... and Jesus. All on an equal footing.

I see that you are finally admitting it!


1 Peter 4:11 (niv)

If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God. If anyone serves, he should do it with the strength God provides, so that in all things God may be praised through Jesus Christ. To him be the glory and the power for ever and ever. Amen.

156 posted on 06/09/2012 3:19:32 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

Not “finally”. I’ve been in full agreement from the beginning of this thread.


157 posted on 06/09/2012 3:23:11 PM PDT by samtheman
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THX 1138 denial


158 posted on 06/09/2012 4:24:49 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Elsie
It would SAVE them of from DAMNATION!!!

I agree with your statement but we're not quite talking about the same thing. Discrediting Brigham Young would be devastating to the Utah faction of MormonISM but could be a huge blessing to individual MormonS who might finally have the scales removed from their eyes. Some of them might seek out the true Gospel, not the nonsense of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young and escape damnation.

159 posted on 06/09/2012 6:17:18 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: Scoutmaster
SM< I am not sure of the timing of the thread and your comments, and when I saw what was being said...based on what you are saying, I have to believe that I was not on the thread when the things you speak of were happening. I believe when I saw the thread I responded supporting your correct statement of fact...and it was at that time that we shared FRemails...whatever the timing was.

I would not have stood by and watched others calling you a liar when I knew the truth...when I saw what was being said about Joseph and Hyrum I responded indicating that they were in fact armed.

I am sorry some said what they did...that was based on their own problems and inaccuracies regarding the matter which is there in the History of the Church for all to see.

If for any reason you felt that I stood by and let others falsely accuse you, I am sorry you felt that way...but that is not as I remember it, nor is it in character for me to do so.

Joseph Smith and Hyrum were armed. They knew they were likely to be attacked and killed and they defended themsleves as best they could, dieing in the effort.

As I recollect it, when the mob attacked some remained outside, firing through the windows while others rushed the stairs. Joseph Smith, Taylor and Richards went to the door trying to force it closed and deflect the rifle barrels that were being pushed inside and fired into the room. Hyrum was moving back away from the door, tried to fire his own single shot pistol through the door but it misfired when a ball hit him on the left side of his nose and he fell over backwards exclaiming, "I am a dead man." A he fell, another ball entered his body on the left side and passed through, smashing the watch he wore in his other vest pocket, when another ball grazed his breast and entered his head through his throat whiel yet a fourth ball hit him in the leg. He was indeed, dead, hit foiur times within just two or three seconds.

When Hyrum fell, Joseph exclaimed, "Oh my dear borther Hyrum," and took his own six barreled revolver and pushed it around the door and discharged all six barrels into the crowd on the stairs, where several of the barrels (three?) misfired, but the others hit some of those on the staris.

John Taylor saw that the defense was vain and ran to the window to jump when he was hit first from within and then from without four times, those from without knocking him onto the floor in the room where he rolled under a bed, where two more bullets hit him, wounding him severely, but, unbelievably and (to us)m miracuously) he survived and would later become the leader of the Church after Brigham Young.

Joseph, after dcharging his weapon, also saw that defense was vain, also ran to the window and was hit from the door by two balls, one in his right breast,knocking him out of the window when he exclaimed, "Oh Lord my God," as he fell. He was shot several times more as he lay on the ground below the window. He too being dead at that point.

Willard Richards was not touched by a single ball and gave his eyewitness account of the events soon after, which are recorded on page 619-620 of Volume Six of the History of the Church.

All of this took place in a very short period of time.

That's the way the history was recorded by the people who were in the room with Joseph and Hyrum while it was happening. The reports from the guard who left the area...and who, BTW, made a show of defense by firing their own muskts above the heas of the attackers before the left the area, also agree. As do the accounts of many of the attackers regarding the shooting coming from the room, and Taylors attaempt at the window and being knocked back in and Joseph Smit being shot out of the window and then shot as he lay (most probably already dead) on the ground.

It was a literal hail of gunfire, gunfire that the prisoners, though armed (and not very adequately obviously) did not initiate.

Anyhow, I thank you for your integrity regarding the historical side of it, and your reasonable discourse whenever we have had dialog.

As I said, it was all a terrible period in American history and I pray those types of bloody mobbings, persecutions, and massacres are behind us in this nation...on either side of such religious differences.

160 posted on 06/09/2012 7:13:30 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Elsie

I understand why you refuse to accept the real truth that is before you. The religious nut cases have never proven their case, yet continue to judge others while ASSUMING that they are the true religion. I have repeatedly challenged their ridiculous metaphysical assertions. They have yet to prove their validity, because they can’t. How about that?

It’s called blind fellowship. I see the same phenomena, point by point, with the Obama nut cases.

Both don’t like Romney. Enjoy the company and the Bill Mahr show.


161 posted on 06/09/2012 8:14:03 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: Loud Mime
I understand why you refuse to accept the real truth that is before you.

Reading the mind of another Freeper is a form of "making it personal".

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

162 posted on 06/09/2012 8:16:46 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Jeff Head

Just as any of those who took part in the planning or the killing and raping of LDS people at Hahns Mill, MO, Far West, MO, or in and around Navuoo, IL in the 1840s should have been brought to trial and executed for their crimes, not to mention the pilfering and theft of all of their homes, property, improvements, etc....but never were.
_______________________________________________________

Jeffie I’m sure you will supply us with sources for your claims...


163 posted on 06/10/2012 3:43:05 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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To: Jeff Head

Just as any of those who took part in the planning or the killing and raping of LDS people at Hahns Mill, MO, Far West, MO, or in and around Navuoo, IL in the 1840s should have been brought to trial and executed for their crimes, not to mention the pilfering and theft of all of their homes, property, improvements, etc....but never were.
_______________________________________________________

Jeffie I’m sure you will supply us with sources for your claims...

Meanwhile whats the massacre at Mountain Meadows of UNARMED men women, children and babes-in-arms got to do with anything else ???


164 posted on 06/10/2012 3:46:20 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana (Why should I vote for Bishop Romney when he hates me because I am a Christian)
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THX


165 posted on 06/10/2012 4:25:08 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: greyfoxx39

Sandy!

How I miss her!


166 posted on 06/10/2012 4:56:32 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: CommerceComet

Ah...

I see your point!


167 posted on 06/10/2012 4:58:31 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Loud Mime
I understand why you refuse to accept the real truth that is before you.

I understand why you refuse to POST what you think is the real truth, instead of just making vague accusations.

168 posted on 06/10/2012 5:00:35 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Loud Mime
The religious nut cases have never proven their case, yet continue to judge others while ASSUMING that they are the true religion.

Please do NOT call the MORMONs, nutcases.

It upsets them.

169 posted on 06/10/2012 5:01:39 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie
Wow, you are the first Freeper who has said that desendents of slave owners should be held accountable for reparations.

Congratulations, you have more in common with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton than you realize. /s

170 posted on 06/10/2012 5:16:37 AM PDT by catfish1957 (My dream for hope and change is to see the punk POTUS in prison for treason)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Here' Nana, let's give my quote in much more of its entirety so people can see what I posted and what the relation was to the statements. If you had dnoe that, there would be no need to ask your last question.

Anyone talking about the Mountain Meadows Massacre speaks of it in the whole. I have no problem saying that every part of it was deplorable and an atrocity.

From those who planned it, to those who carried it out under the awful duplicity which they did, to those who covered it up, to those who attempted to take those children as their own. (That was not an act of compassion in the sense that they somehow saved those children out of love for them) They did it out of fear of their own beliefs, even given the unbelievable contradiction their murders already reigned down on them. They took those children to make them their own and it too was atrocious...all the way up to a trial for a single person for the murders who was hung when there should have been scores of defendents.

Anyone who took part in the killing and its planning should have been on trial. That too was atrocious.

There was no intentional dumbing down of the truth in my statement, Colo...you are just so invested in your commitment to attack anything LDS and believe the worse that you demand that every iota be spelled out by anyone LDS discussing it, even though it was 155 years ago.

For me, with Mountain Meadows that is fine. It all was an ugly, deplorable atrocity.

Just as any of those who took part in the planning or the killing and raping of LDS people at Hahns Mill, MO, Far West, MO, or in and around Navuoo, IL in the 1840s should have been brought to trial and executed for their crimes, not to mention the pilfering and theft of all of their homes, property, improvements, etc....but never were.

All of those terrible acts on both sides were travesties and atrocious and have no place in this nation or amongst any group of people who claim discipleship following Jesus Christ. Such actions, irregardless of which side of that coin, are clearly the anti-thesis of "Christian."

As to the deplorable acts in Missouri and Illinois, there are many sites and books on the matter, just as there are on the Mountain Meadows Massecre.

The Community of Christ Church, a break off of the LDS Church, maintains a number of historical sites regarding the same. Here's one on Hahn's Mill:

The Hahn's Mill Massacre

Here's an eyewitness account of one of the survivors:

Williard Smith's Account of Survival at Hahn's Mill

Have a wonderful Sunday, Nana. I am soon off to teach my Primary Class at church and partake of the Sacrement of our Saviour as I worship Him and reverence His atonment for us all with my wife, friends and neighbors in our congregatin.

171 posted on 06/10/2012 5:56:59 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head

Between 1832 and 1838, the advance contingent of Missouri Mormons began stealing land and property from settlers who had arrived in and settled Missouri prior to the arrival of the Mormons in 1831. And, between 1831 and 1838 this conflict eventually turned into a full-fledged war, which is known today as the “Missouri War”.


172 posted on 06/10/2012 6:10:28 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Elsie
Please do NOT call the MORMONs, nutcases. It upsets them.

And rightly so. They are not nutcases. The rank and file are the useful idiots identified by Lenin; the upper caste are the beneficiaries of the useful idiots.

The rank and file are normally well meaning. But we all know what the road to hell is paved with...

173 posted on 06/10/2012 6:12:30 AM PDT by MarkBsnr (I would not believe in the Gospel, if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.)
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To: Jeff Head

In 1832, Smith was tarred and feathered in Kirtland for sexual indiscretions with 15-year old Nancy Marinda Johnson. Further, he began operating a bank without obtaining a state banking charter (Kirtland Safety Bank) and he ended up leaving Kirtland in the dead of night after stealing all of the bank’s remaining funds in 1838. Additionally, the Mormons still owned slaves in Ohio, and because of this they were visited in 1836 by abolitionist agents of the US government who reminded them that slavery was ONLY allowed south of the Mason Dixon, and not in Ohio.


174 posted on 06/10/2012 6:12:35 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head

1838, Joseph Smith was arrested for Treason against the United States.

There were reasons that people wanted mormons to move on.

Your links are an interesting interpretation of mormon history by mormons.


175 posted on 06/10/2012 6:15:28 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Treason is an easy charge to sustain when a person is standing against the official EO 44 of the State of Missouri at the time which called for the Extermination or Expulsion of a whole relgion of people...taking all their lands and possessions if they did not leave by a particular date, and being able to exterminate them with government sanction.

Is that really what you want to defend, svcw?

Standing against such official government orders was considered treason...but if an order was made today against your church svcw, I expect you would commit treason against it too.

Sort of like the liberals claiming Cheney and Rumsfeld were traitors.

You are so invested in your dislike for and fight against the LDS Church that you are willing to side with and call good a horrible example of religious bigotry and intolerance that occurred in our own nation, supported to the highest levels of a couple of state governments. But please, do not try to associate that charge...for the which he was never convicted...against people who were fighting for their rights to property and life at the time and to worship as they so chose.

Despite the issue that people had with the Church of its policy over Priesthood and the blacks, the Church was openly in favor of abolition in America...and truth be known, this was probably as important a reason as any other for why they were so persecuted in Missouri at that time as anything else.

But, like I said, you are so invested in your stance that you will pass that off as nothing, overlook it, and continue to defend the indefensable...sort of like you want to claim the LDS CHurch does over the topic of this thread, despite the Church’s official apology for any involvement its members had over it.

In 1976 I believe (possibly later), that old Extermination Order was finally removed from the state of Missouri’s books, and within the last year, the Governor of Missour, at the ceremony opening the new LDS Temple in Missouri, finally uttered as Governor an apology for what happened back then.

It was terrible on both sides and there is no excuse for it...though you continue to make them for what happened in Missouri and Illinois, and then demand there be non for Mountain Meadows.

You are absoultely correct in the latter, but terribly mistaken in the former. Truth is, there is no viable excuse for any such persecutions, pillaging, atrocities and murder.

I pray you have a good Sunday and remember the love of our Savior and His admonisiton to love others as He loved us. I will try and do the same this day, and always.


176 posted on 06/10/2012 7:30:14 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Jeff Head

Between 1842 and 1844, Joseph Smith:

a. Proclaimed himself “King of Zion”, which he claimed held dominion over the United States

b. Appointed Brigham Young as the new Mormon “President of the United States”

c. Appointed other church leaders in his secret “Council of Fifty” as Governors of the various states and territories

d. Began forming his “Nauvoo Legion”, which he claimed would be a “100,000 man militia” to be used to overthrow the US Government with military force (this is where all of the resurgent Mormon militias of the 80’s and 90’s came from, like the Viper Militia and the Michigan Militia)

e. Inducted himself into the US military as “Lieutenant General” even though he had no prior military experience, and began wearing a fake military uniform

f. Began legitimizing polygamy by formally announcing his “doctrine of polygamy”

g. Formally announced his “Doctrine of the Constitution Versus the Law”, which taught that Mormonism was the law of the land, which superseded America Law (same concept as “Sharia Law” of Islam, which is where he also borrowed his newly “legitimized” version of Polygamy from)

h. Formally created his new “Melchizedek Priesthood”, which made all Mormons superior to “Christians” and made them “not-subject” to the man-made Judeo-Christian laws of America, or the Laws of Moses (10-commandements). Smith’s new superior priesthood (superior to the older “Aaronic Priesthood”), made all Mormon males “man-Gods” in their own right who now “held the keys” to circumvent the Christian laws of Moses and the Judeo-Christian laws of America

i. Announced he would run for President of the United States as a means of gaining “legitimate” control of the Federal Government

j. Formed a Masonic lodge in Nauvoo, had all of the members of the Mormon religion’s hierarchy become Freemasons and then stole all of the rights, rituals, annointings and symbolism of the Freemasons, bastardized it and made them the rights, rituals, annointings and symbolism of his Mormon religion, which prior to Smith theft of Freemasonry didn’t have such a body of ritualism.


177 posted on 06/10/2012 7:32:53 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head
In 1832, Smith was tarred and feathered in Kirtland for sexual indiscretions with 15-year old Nancy Marinda Johnson. Further, he began operating a bank without obtaining a state banking charter (Kirtland Safety Bank) and he ended up leaving Kirtland in the dead of night after stealing all of the bank’s remaining funds in 1838. Additionally, the Mormons still owned slaves in Ohio, and because of this they were visited in 1836 by abolitionist agents of the US government who reminded them that slavery was ONLY allowed south of the Mason Dixon, and not in Ohio.

1836 - Joseph Smith and his main contingent of Mormons in Kirtland, Ohio are visited by Federal agents who remind them that slavery is banned in States north of the Mason-Dixon line. But, slavery and polygamy are not only the only two reasons for the escalating conflict between Mormons and non-Mormons during this period of time in Kirtland. Smith is angered at being admonished by Federal Agents who are abolitionists.

178 posted on 06/10/2012 7:39:49 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: svcw

Unsubstantiated and unprovable claims...actually, rediculous claims. Smith ifficially ran for President with no hope whatsoever of winning in that time frame. Why would he pronounce himself “King,” and then run politically for the opffice of the Presidency?

The Nauvoo Lelgion was an official, state recognized Militia for the City of Nauvoo which meany counties and cities had at the time.

There was never any, nor is there any “Mormon Law” that is set forth in the least to overthrow and supplant the Constitution...another favorite fiction of anti-LDS to demonize them. My father, my uncle, my son-in-law and many of my cousis and family have fought (many of them now LDS over the last 42 years) and bled and some died for the Constitution of this Republic which the Church holds as an inspried and Heavenly banner and document.

The Church teaches that during the Millennium, Christ will reign with perfect justice. He will not be elected. He will make and execute the laws. That is what this so-called law refers to that you want to ascribe to the Church now. Do you believe Christ himself will be a traitor to the US Constitution in the Millennium, svcw? I don’t. I will freely accept His reign as Lord and King when He comes.

Until then, the US Constitution is what I believe God Himself inspired and ordained to be the document that sets forth how the US will be governered and it is what the Church teaches.

But, this has gone far afield from the original topic of this thread and is now descending once again into the endless anti-LDS issues severaal are so well known for here on FR. I do not intend to go over all that again, so will bow out of it.

As I said, have a good Sunday in yopur worsip of our Savior who taught that we should love one another as He loved us and apply the Golden Ruel. I hope to be able to do that better and better as I grow older and follow Him.


179 posted on 06/10/2012 7:58:44 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: catfish1957
Wow, you are the first Freeper who has said that desendents of slave owners should be held accountable for reparations.

Yup; and I hid it in THESE words!!


To: catfish1957
Should I be held accountable for that??????

Well; did you attend a RACIST church for 31 of your years; never (evidently) ever speaking out about it?

As I recall, Perry got FRIED!!! over a few words on a rock.

How much MORE should a fellow have to take heat over the things HIS CHOSEN CHURCH plainly TAUGHT?

Folks seem to complain about Barry, not complaining about Wright's teachings. Should not the SAME rules apply to Mitt?

150 posted on Saturday, June 09, 2012 5:56:43 PM by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)


180 posted on 06/10/2012 8:16:38 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jeff Head
Why would he pronounce himself “King,” and then run politically for the opffice of the Presidency?

Why not?

He already had a whole lot of fools FOLLOWING him!

181 posted on 06/10/2012 8:19:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jeff Head
As I said, have a good Sunday in yopur worsip of our Savior who taught that we should love one another as He loved us and apply the Golden Ruel. I hope to be able to do that better and better as I grow older and follow Him.


KJV
Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

 
ANYBODY???
Like this fine looking fellow???
 

2 Corinthians 11:12-15
12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.
 

Like THESE guys??
 
17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!
 


Ephesians 2:1-2
1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

182 posted on 06/10/2012 8:20:43 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jeff Head
As I said, have a good Sunday in yopur worsip of our Savior who taught that we should love one another as He loved us and apply the Golden Ruel.

 

"He (Joseph Smith) is the man through whom God has spoken... yet I would not like to call him a savior, though in a certain capacity he was a god to us, and is to the nations of the earth, and will continue to be."
 - Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:321
 
 
"You call us fools; but the day will be, gentlemen and ladies, whether you belong to this Church or not, when you will prize brother Joseph Smith as the Prophet of the Living God, and look upon him as a god..."
- Herber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses 5:88
 
 
"If we get our salvation, we shall have to pass by him [Joseph Smith]; if we enter our glory, it will be through the authority he has received. We cannot get around him [Joseph Smith]"
- (as quoted in 1988 Melchizedek Priesthood Study Guide, p. 142)
 
 
There is "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God"
- Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190
 
 
"I tell you, Joseph holds the keys, and none of us can get into the celestial kingdom without passing by him. We have not got rid of him, but he stands there as the sentinel, holding the keys of the kingdom of God; and there are many of them beside him. I tell you, if we get past those who have mingled with us, and know us best, and have a right to know us best, probably we can pass all other sentinels as far as it is necessary, or as far as we may desire. But I tell you, the pinch will be with those that have mingled with us, stood next to us, weighed our spirits, tried us, and proven us: there will be a pinch, in my view, to get past them. The others, perhaps, will say, If brother Joseph is satisfied with you, you may pass. If it is all right with him, it is all right with me. Then if Joseph shall say to a man, or if brother Brigham say to a man, I forgive you your sins, "Whosoever sins ye remit they are remitted unto them;" if you who have suffered and felt the weight of transgression—if you have generosity enough to forgive the sinner, I will forgive him: you cannot have more generosity than I have. I have given you power to forgive sins, and when the Lord gives a gift, he does not take it back again."
 - Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p.154-155
 
 
 
"It is because the Lord called Joseph Smith that salvation is again available to mortal men.... If it had not been for Joseph Smith and the restoration, there would be no salvation,"
 - Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 396, 670
 


They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.
He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.
He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.
As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.
Who has made this so?
Have I?
Have this people?
Have the world?
No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.
If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.
If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.
Can you pass without his inspection?
No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.
In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.
They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?
They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
 Brigham Young,

--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224

183 posted on 06/10/2012 8:22:51 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Jeff Head
As I said, have a good Sunday in yopur worsip of our Savior who taught that we should love one another as He loved us and apply the Golden Ruel.

HE did NOT tell us to IGNORE False prophets and False CHRISTS; but to expose them.


1. Joseph Smith
2. One of these guys in the picture:

184 posted on 06/10/2012 8:27:34 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Elsie

When its all you got...


185 posted on 06/10/2012 9:42:13 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Elsie

When its all you got...


186 posted on 06/10/2012 9:42:30 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Loud Mime

I know you are smarter than the rest of us, so can you share with us this “real truth” that is before us?

I mean since you seem to be holding the real truth and are the only one actually allowed to “judge” us buffoons?

Perhaps in your munificence we will find the grace we assumed we had and be enlightened why one such as yourself bothers his day with these petty fights in which you have no dog...


187 posted on 06/10/2012 9:50:39 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Loud Mime
Both don’t like Romney.

Just for the record, besides Ann Coulter, who admits to liking Mitt Romney? Not one Republican that I know, even those who are voting for him this fall, likes Mitt Romney or his policies. The only positive attribute that they can state about him is that he is not Barak Obama.

188 posted on 06/11/2012 7:04:16 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: CommerceComet
Most of the endorsements for Romnney are people who are now endorsing him because he is now considered the winner of the GOP nomination, not because he was their choice in the primaries.

Howerver at that link, as yyou read the endorsements, there are quite a few who endorsed him bfore he won who do agree with the issue statements he has published.

In fact those statements represent a pretty good platform to base a conservative turn around on. The problem is of course, that many people are concerned how well Romney will stick to those commitments should the going get tough.

That is another reason why getting a strong majority (and with more and more Tea Party types) in the House and Senate is important.

189 posted on 06/11/2012 8:56:13 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: Religion Moderator

Perhaps you have missed the messages sent my way.

I’ll honor your request.


190 posted on 06/12/2012 9:04:03 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: CommerceComet

Just for the record? My mom, my neighbors, the widow down the street all like Romney. None of them like Obama or Gingrich. I have friends who don’t like Romney. I’m happy, because I would refuse to live in a lockstep society.


191 posted on 06/12/2012 9:14:08 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: Loud Mime

I post to the first one I see which is often the last one posted. The Religion Forum guideline is that when one has been warned, e.g. to stop making it personal - then everyone else in the sidebar should consider himself warned. It’s based on the principle that two wrongs don’t make a right.


192 posted on 06/12/2012 9:49:34 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Loud Mime; Jeff Head

I’m sure that you can find some people who like Mitt Romney and his policies - my statement was obviously hyperbole. Given that the Romney campaign has admitted that it has work to do win over the Republican rank and file suggests that my statement of general dissatisfaction with Romney is true. I live in a liberal enclave in a solid red state and even among the Republican Party regulars here with whom I interact constantly, the lack of enthusiasm for Romney is evident and readily communicated. In contrast, four years ago when there were some enthusiastic McCain supporters among the same people.


193 posted on 06/13/2012 6:46:13 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: Jeff Head
that many people are concerned how well Romney will stick to those commitments should the going get tough.

Obviously, with his political history, this is a concern. A reputation of "saying whatever you think the people want to hear" doesn't just appear out of nowhere. If a man doesn't have firm political convictions, he will be blown around by every breeze.

That is another reason why getting a strong majority (and with more and more Tea Party types) in the House and Senate is important.

This is desirable, in and of itself, but I'm skeptical that it will reign in Romney's misguided policies.

If Romney wins by a healthy margin and Tea Party candidates win across the country, Romney is going to feel that his agenda was one that was endorsed. The same thinking that gets people to vote for a liberal Republican because he is OUR candidate will morph into support for his agenda because he is OUR President. The GOP-e will push this idea hard in order to avoid having a failed Presidency. Given the meekness of Republican members of Congress to even fight Obama makes me doubtful that an organized opposition will arise in the Republican Party to a Republican President's policies.

If Romney wins a narrow victory while conservatives down the ticket win by larger margins, Romney might well feel that he doesn't need the conservative vote. Romney could construct a left-of-center coalition to govern with RINO and Democrat votes to push through his left-leaning agenda. He can posture himself as the brave politician who stood up to the radical right and governs from the moderate middle. The media will of course eat this up.

What concerns me about Romney is that his policies aren't that different than Obama's but he'll put the Republican seal of approval on these liberal-leaning ideas. Obviously, Romney won't take it as far as Obama but could "institutionalize" misguided policies making them even more difficult to overturn. I see nothing good coming out of either Romney or Obama winning this election. Our nation is going to have a tough four years, IMO.

194 posted on 06/13/2012 7:27:01 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: CommerceComet

I am an avid Sarah Palin fan; she carries the philosophy and accountability that this nation needs. I once said to my congressman’s staff that if McCain needed some bump to his campaign he would ask for her as his veep. Everybody in the office said “WHO?”

I see Obama as the head of an evil political movement. Anything to take his party, cult, faction, coven, whatever, out of power is an absolute necessity for the survival of this nation. We have one of two options now; Obama or Romney. Quit your complaining and focus. Your complaining doesn’t help anybody, anything, but your ego.


195 posted on 06/13/2012 9:02:02 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: Loud Mime
I see Obama as the head of an evil political movement. Anything to take his party, cult, faction, coven, whatever, out of power is an absolute necessity for the survival of this nation.

I'm not apparently as fearful as you are. I'm not so pessimistic that I believe that one man, including Obama, can bring down our nation. I'm confident that our nation will survive the next four years regardless of which clown we elect. If Obama was so dangerous, how did we survive the last four years?

We have one of two options now; Obama or Romney.

Maybe you think that but I don't. I don't have to vote for either man and I don't intend to. Neither man deserves my vote.

Quit your complaining and focus. Your complaining doesn’t help anybody, anything, but your ego.

Focus on what? I have no horse in this race. How exactly are Tea Party people going to keep Romney in line if we can't complain about his policies? Are we supposed to wait until all you ABO Romney supporters give us a signal that it is okay?

Assuming that I'm doing something to bolster my ego is impugning motives and is prohibited by forum rules. (Seems you had problems with forum rules before.)

196 posted on 06/13/2012 10:56:05 AM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: CommerceComet

Obama is not one man. He’s the head of a political movement which
needs to be stopped. He can do more things in the next four
years, and you downplay that horrible fact.

Enough.

We each have decided who the greater enemy is. For many on this forum
it is NOT Obama. It is other persons, even people like me. Think about it.

What does that tell you?


197 posted on 06/13/2012 12:28:10 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Defeat Obama. Everything else is secondary)
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To: Loud Mime
We each have decided who the greater enemy is. For many on this forum it is NOT Obama. It is other persons, even people like me.

While I see Obama as an enemy of the good of this country, I don't see Romney as being much of an improvement. That least not enough to deserve my vote.

I don't consider ABO voters, like yourself, to be the enemy. Misguided but not the enemy. I only get offended by their position when they insist that I must adopt it as well. If Romney wins the general election, I suspect a great case of buyer's remorse will sweep over the Republicans as the initial jubilation of removing Obama is replaced by concern of what has been put in his place. The political history of Mitt Romney is anything but reassuring to conservatives.

198 posted on 06/13/2012 3:06:58 PM PDT by CommerceComet (Obama vs. Romney - clear evidence that our nation has been judged by God and found wanting.)
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To: Loud Mime

Keeping yourself busy by going around slamming others and calling them religious nuts? Seems like the heat comes from your contempt of anything good. Don’t blow up with that heat - who then will be the self imposed guru of the ‘nut cases’?

Sounds like a case of atheism. No wonder so much heat - TRUTH BEING SPOKEN - that it’s needed to be toned down for your comfort.


199 posted on 07/21/2012 9:56:03 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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