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Following the Truth: Empty Churches Where Should We Draw The Line?
FollowingtheTruth.com ^ | May 9th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 06/12/2012 6:03:28 PM PDT by Salvation

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To: itsahoot; mdmathis6

God the Father himself set aside this precept at the Incarnation. Jesus is the image of the invisible God, says St. Paul.


41 posted on 06/13/2012 8:29:01 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Salvation; UCANSEE2

It kind of reminds of a story about a drunk that wanders into a church, sees a crucifix with a figure attached to it and listens a bit to the pastor speak of Christ’s death...looks at the cross again and says rather loudly..”yeah but preacher are you shhhure that’shh the right man you’re talkin’ about up there....” before collapsing into a stupor(pungently I might add).

Context is what is important....lots of people died on a Roman cross,; only one resurrection of a sinless man who was God in flesh has ever occured!


42 posted on 06/13/2012 8:30:54 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Romulus; itsahoot

“Jesus is the image of the invisible God, says St. Paul”

This image was to be formed in the hearts of believers transforming our inner man...day by day even though our outer man perishes. Christ himself is invisible to us now as the eye can see, but in the day of resurrection Christians will be like him and able to see HIM as He Is!

If we visit the prisoner, have we not visited Christ? If we help the sick and needy, have we not helped Christ? If we encourage the lonely, have we not encouraged Christ in his loneliness? Has not Christ said that by serving such folk, have we not served him? What need we of images of wood, plaster, and stone when the very presence of Christ dwells in the hearts of those who love him?


43 posted on 06/13/2012 8:44:18 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Romulus; itsahoot

“Jesus is the image of the invisible God, says St. Paul”

This image was to be formed in the hearts of believers transforming our inner man...day by day even though our outer man perishes. Christ himself is invisible to us now as the eye can see, but in the day of resurrection Christians will be like him and able to see HIM as He Is!

If we visit the prisoner, have we not visited Christ? If we help the sick and needy, have we not helped Christ? If we encourage the lonely, have we not encouraged Christ in his loneliness? Has not Christ said that by serving such folk, have we not served him? What need we of images of wood, plaster, and stone when the very presence of Christ dwells in the hearts of those who love him?


44 posted on 06/13/2012 8:44:52 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: murron; Salvation; SuziQ; Romulus; UCANSEE2; itsahoot

I would like to see a church that had depiction of a blood stained EMPTY cross and a depiction of an EMPTY tomb side by side with the words of the angel stating “ HE is not here, HE IS RISEN as HE said!”


45 posted on 06/13/2012 8:55:19 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: mdmathis6

That would evacuate most of the significance from the symbol. You do not see this because your heart is closed to the contemplation of this mystery.


46 posted on 06/13/2012 9:05:11 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus; itsahoot; UCANSEE2; All

It is not important that we see images depicting the suffering and death of Christ, it is more important that God the Father sees the image of Christ LIVING Triumphantly in each of us!

I would rather, that if such images are done, that they be done without facial features, or perhaps with a mirror in place of the face!


47 posted on 06/13/2012 9:06:46 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Romulus; itsahoot; UCANSEE2; All

It is not important that we see images depicting the suffering and death of Christ, it is more important that God the Father sees the image of Christ LIVING Triumphantly in each of us!

I would rather, that if such images are done, that they be done without facial features, or perhaps with a mirror in place of the face!


48 posted on 06/13/2012 9:07:12 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: mdmathis6

It doesn’t matter that Jesus is no longer visible to us in human form. What matters is that Jesus God penetrated and joined himself to his creation and that this irreversible reality persists.

God the Father has abrogated the precept against images, having made a perfect image of his eternal Word.


49 posted on 06/13/2012 9:15:46 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus

I think you are closed to the “mystery”. The temple veil was rent in twain, God does not want to remain a mystery. He poured out his spirit on the day of Pentecost, he no longer wanted to be estranged from men! Fanny Crosby, the blind famed hymn writer remained blind from 6 weeks old until her death and could never comtemplate your extolled religious imagery or contemplate “its mystery”...never the less “saw” most brilliantly when she came to know Christ; writing that her soul became “filled with a most celestial light”! That which you call “mystery” was that presence of Jesus Christ via the holy Spirit that dwelt in her!

Christ despaired of men who “had eyes but could not see!”. He even healed a blind man who saw the truth while others scoffed.


50 posted on 06/13/2012 9:23:25 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: Salvation
“We create a space for different ways for people to engage with God. I still think people are spiritual and religious. It’s just not orthodox Christianity they’re looking for.”

It has been said God created man in His own image, and we have been returning the favor ever since.

We have to remember to break out of the American mindset that bigger is better, that bigger proved we are doing something right.

We are commanded to preach the word, in season and out. If it is out of season our churches will diminish in size, in season churches will grow.

John 6:66 After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him. 67 So Jesus said to the Twelve, “Do you want to go away as well?” 68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, 69 and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”
Jesus preached hard topics, church shrinkage sermons if you will, why are we afraid to do the same?
51 posted on 06/13/2012 9:27:50 AM PDT by Gamecock (I worked out with a dumbbell yesterday and I feel vigorous!)
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To: boatbums

**I’ve been to some churches where all they ever preach about is the gospel, as if they think nobody is saved yet or nothing else is important.**

Now this is unbelievable for me. Today is the Memorial of St. Anthony of Padua, who is known as the evangelical doctor, because he preached ONLY on the GOSPELS. If a saint is honored for this, does your statement make any sense? Maybe that pastor was on to something.


52 posted on 06/13/2012 9:28:39 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Romulus

“God the Father has abrogated the precept against images, having made a perfect image of his eternal Word”

If that was the case, then the Apostles would not have forbidden the eating of food offered to images. They didn’t forbid the eating of bread and wine in remembrance of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ however.

Yes and show me that God has abrogated the precept against images...show me where any of the scriptures say that!


53 posted on 06/13/2012 9:32:43 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: mdmathis6; Romulus

**suffering and death of Christ**

For many who are suffering on earth, this is very important, for we can unite our suffering to Christ’s.


54 posted on 06/13/2012 9:35:34 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

If a blind man or woman from birth, nevertheless comes to strong faith in Christ(Fanny Crosby the famed hymn writer is one), what “imagery” can such an one “relate” to?

When Christ healed one blind man, he did so in two stages...he first asked the man what he saw and the man replied...”I see men as trees walking” Christ touched the man again and he then saw normally. The man in question had never seen anything, so Christ had to impart wisdom so that that the man could relate to the world as a sighted man would see it apart from the touch and smell and hearing sensory derived mental symbolism he had developed to adapt to a world he could never see before.

That’s why optical imagery isn’t as important in the spiritual state of things...and why God laid down precepts against graven images...sometimes what you see can get in the way of true spiritual sight!


55 posted on 06/13/2012 9:51:59 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Kiss the Son!)
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To: mdmathis6

And I have seen people go up and touch the crucifix to venerate the image of Christ.


56 posted on 06/13/2012 9:53:29 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: mdmathis6

I did show you — twice. It’s not my fault you aren’t receiving it.

It’s clear you want to consider yourself bound by the Law. That’s a rejection of the Gospel, but I can’t stop you.


57 posted on 06/13/2012 10:04:09 AM PDT by Romulus (The Traditional Latin Mass is the real Youth Mass)
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To: Romulus

“It is a visual expression of the mystery of God’s Incarnation”

Of course for us Protestants this is the problem, believing as we do that visual representations of God are forbidden.

I just wanted to defend the purpose I think RC’s have of the crucifix, it is not a glorification of violence, and I am happy to defend RCs on that.


58 posted on 06/13/2012 10:13:41 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Gamecock

**Jesus preached hard topics, church shrinkage sermons if you will, why are we afraid to do the same?**

Good question. Hopefully more ministers and priests will not fear preaching on the difficult subjects — especially those dealing with eternal life vs. living in the m modern world.


59 posted on 06/13/2012 10:23:41 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: mdmathis6

**forbidden the eating of food offered to images**

This was an Old Testament rule, wasn’t it?


60 posted on 06/13/2012 10:26:17 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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