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SSPX: Vatican II and Novus Ordo Still Pose “Doctrinal Difficulties”
Catholic World Report ^ | 6/14/12 | Catherine Harmon

Posted on 06/15/2012 7:32:59 AM PDT by marshmallow

On the heels of the Vatican’s confirmation today that a personal prelature has been offered to the Society of St. Pius X should they sign on to the Holy See’s doctrinal preamble, the SSPX has released the following statement:

SSPX General House Communiqué

6-14-2012

On Wednesday, June 13, 2012, Bishop Bernard Fellay, Superior General of the Society of St. Pius X, accompanied by the First Assistant General, Father Niklaus Pfluger, was received by Cardinal William Levada, Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, who delivered to him [Bishop Fellay] his dicastery’s evaluation of the Doctrinal Declaration sent in by the Society on April 15, 2012, in response to the Doctrinal Preamble submitted on September 14, 2011, by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

During this meeting, Bishop Fellay listened to explanations and further details from Cardinal Levada, to whom he presented the situation of the Society of St. Pius X and spelled out the doctrinal difficulties posed by the Second Vatican Council and the Novus Ordo Missae. The desire for additional clarifications could result in a new phase of discussions. [CWR: emphasis added]

At the end of this long, two-hour interview, Bishop Fellay received a draft document proposing a Personal Prelature, in the case of a possible canonical recognition of the Society of St. Pius X. During the meeting the situation of the three other bishops of the Society was not discussed.

At the conclusion of that meeting, it was hoped that the dialogue might continue so as to allow the parties to arrive at a solution for the good of the Church and of souls.

Menzingen, June 14, 2012


TOPICS: Catholic; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 06/15/2012 7:33:06 AM PDT by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

During the meeting, Fellay explained that his own humility was so great that he would refrain from stating publicly his own belief that he is more Catholic than Pope Benedict XVI.


2 posted on 06/15/2012 7:45:25 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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Fish or cut bait, Fellay, before the Church does it for you.


3 posted on 06/15/2012 8:22:29 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Are the Anglicans converting to the Catholic Church being required to sign a doctrinal preamble in regards to the Second Vatican Council?


4 posted on 06/17/2012 11:11:10 AM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Read Anglicanorum Coetibus for yourself ...

The Anglicans' disagreements with the Church are different from the problems the Lefebvrites have with respect to the Church.

5 posted on 06/17/2012 11:21:26 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Notwithstanding
You neglect the possibility that if the Holy See had absolute power within the Church (which he doesn't, and then there are the practical implications) he would return the Church to its traditional Missae. Pope Benedict XVI may in effect be a closeted member of the SSPX.
6 posted on 06/17/2012 11:39:12 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: ebb tide

Dear ebb tide,

As I recall, what kicked the whole Anglicans ordinariate stuff into high gear was when a bunch of them delivered a Catechism of the Catholic Church to the pope, signed by a bunch of their bishops, symbolizing their submission to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church as defined by ROME, not by themselves, or the SSPX, or any other idiosyncratic group.

sitetest


7 posted on 06/17/2012 5:44:46 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: steve86

It is most certainly within a Pope’s power to dictate how Mass will be said. If Benedict XVI wanted to, he could mandate that the old Mass be used around the world to the exclusion of all other Masses.

Clearly Benedict XVI likes the old Mass and values it as a treasure and a vital part of our patrimony. But apparently rather than a closet SSPXer, he is in fact a bold and professing Catholic who chooses to respect the will of the Council Fathers, and believes they were guided by the Holy Spirit.


8 posted on 06/17/2012 7:44:14 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding
If Benedict XVI wanted to, he could mandate that the old Mass be used around the world to the exclusion of all other Masses

Sure, he could mandate it. Whether the mandate would be obeyed is an entirely different matter. Few current priests have even a working knowledge of Latin, much less any appreciation of traditionalism. That's what I meant by practical problems. BTW, with respect to your comment re: the "Council fathers", I believe they were directed directly by Lucifer, with willing human cooperation. As we were warned : "It will become clearer about 1960". I advise you to reject Satan's progress in this area.

9 posted on 06/17/2012 7:54:15 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: sitetest

Thanks for your summary but you didn’t answer my question.


10 posted on 06/17/2012 8:08:40 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ArrogantBustard
I didn't know there were differences enough to present pectoral crosses to some bishops and not others.
11 posted on 06/17/2012 8:09:18 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide
Dear ebb tide,

In that the incoming former Anglicans never expressed any doubts about the Second Vatican Council, why would he specifically ask? And since the Catechism of the Catholic Church specifically draws on many documents of the Second Vatican Council, it would seem that submission to the Magisterium of the Church as represented in the Catechism would include acceptance of the Second Vatican Council.

I hadn't heard that their signatures were asterisked with the caveat, “except for all the stuff from VatII.”

sitetest

12 posted on 06/17/2012 8:21:50 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: ebb tide

Is there some sort of point you’re trying to make?


13 posted on 06/17/2012 9:17:12 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ebb tide

Your question might make more sense if you had included Vatican I and all other councils that were held after Henry VIII broke with Rome.


14 posted on 06/18/2012 1:42:20 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding
Yes, it would have. Thanks for the correction.

Yet, I don't see how one could sign complete agreement with and submission to both the First and Second Vatican Councils without seeing conflicts between the two of them.

I reference this book:

Ecumenical Vatican Council II: A Much Needed Discussion By Msgr. Brunero Gherardini

I understand the requested doctrinal preamble to be signed by the SSPX is a secret at this time; and I wonder why that is so.

In the past, people formally admitted to the Catholic Church make a public profession of faith, not a secret one to be revealed after the fact.

15 posted on 06/18/2012 7:17:49 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

A secret? Really?

Private negotiations are private - and rightly so. This is a private negotiation.

Why do you cloak this in language of “secret” doctrinal formula?

OT contradicts NT, Matthew contradicts Luke, V1 contradicts V2, etc.
Just because you CAN choose to find contradiction does not mean that the contents cannot all be reconciled.

Why is your approach one that focuses on seeing contradiction when the Church herself demands by her authority that we see that V1 and V2 are NOT contradictory (and such an interpretation is rational)?


16 posted on 06/18/2012 7:39:40 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding
"Private negotiations are private - and rightly so. This is a private negotiation."

It's a "doctrinal preamble" that must be signed. Two points:

1) How do you negotiate doctrine?

2) Why is Vatican II involved since it professed no new doctrine?

17 posted on 06/19/2012 4:26:31 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: ebb tide

The contents of a draft document are private. The final executed document would be public. It is how things are prudently done.

No doctrine is being negotiated - what is being negotiated is how the apostates will express the fealty and obedience to the papacy and how the council fathers in our time chose - with the Holy Spirit’s guidance - to express the Church’s wisdom of the ages.

It is Lefebre and Fellay who make V2 the sine qua non (as in “you can’t be Catholic if you accept V2”). That is the only reason V2 is at issue - you should ask Fellay why he has made V2 so central to his apostasy.

Every Catholic must accept the validity of the novus ordo Mass, even if they choose to never celebrate one. Every Catholic must accept the validity of the election of Paul VI, JPI, JPII and B16. Every Catholic must accept the Catechism promulgated by JPII.


18 posted on 06/19/2012 6:23:19 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: ebb tide

The contents of a draft document are private. The final executed document would be public. It is how things are prudently done.

No doctrine is being negotiated - what is being negotiated is how the apostates will express the fealty and obedience to the papacy and acceptance of the validity of how the council fathers in our time chose - with the Holy Spirit’s guidance - to express the Church’s wisdom of the ages.

It is Lefebre and Fellay who make V2 the sine qua non (as in “you can’t be Catholic if you accept V2”). That is the only reason V2 is at issue - you should ask Fellay why he has made V2 so central to his apostasy.

Every Catholic must accept the validity of the novus ordo Mass, even if they choose to never celebrate one. Every Catholic must accept the validity of the election of Paul VI, JPI, JPII and B16. Every Catholic must accept the Catechism promulgated by JPII.


19 posted on 06/19/2012 6:25:24 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: marshmallow; Sirius Lee; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


20 posted on 06/19/2012 6:29:28 PM PDT by narses
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To: Notwithstanding; steve86
It is most certainly within a Pope’s power to dictate how Mass will be said.

How do you figure. Most bishops won't even abide by the changes or standards he already tells them. He can't even remove bishops in the U.S.(There have been at least 2 bishops who refused to be removed by him) The majority of U.S. bishops support him less than the SSPX.

21 posted on 06/19/2012 7:48:54 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding
"...validity of how the council fathers in our time chose..."

Interesting choice of words; Nostra Aetate comes to mind.

In our time, Lumen Gentium states that along with Catholics, Jews and Muslims worship the same God. Every Jew and Muslim I've been close to has stated he does not worship the Holy Trinity. They tell me Lumen Gentium is wrong; that they don't worship the God I worship, and I agree with them.

22 posted on 06/19/2012 8:12:53 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Notwithstanding
"Every Catholic must accept the Catechism promulgated by JPII."

You're kidding, I hope.

23 posted on 06/19/2012 8:13:34 PM PDT by ebb tide
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To: Notwithstanding
I don't understand why you so vociferously oppose the Pope in his efforts, while criticizing others for opposing the Pope. Even though you disagree strongly with him, couldn't you have a little more charity for his project, given his office? Could n't others say you are making yourself more Catholic than the Pope, if not criticizing him directly, taking strong opposition to what he believes, and the actions he is taking.

I completely understand why you and the bishops are so fearful of this. But, C'mon, the Pope knows more about this than all of us put together. You are going to be shocked, when he makes this into a wonderful thing. I support and trust him 100%.

24 posted on 06/19/2012 8:17:53 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding

It’s like Medjugorje. A lot of well meaning Catholics are involved in that. But the fact is, under the rules of the Catholic Church, they shouldn’t be. The Pope hasn’t taken great action yet, but he’s following the practices of the Catholic Church. A lot of people are ignorant about what these steps mean, and there are other people taking advantage of that ignorance.


25 posted on 06/19/2012 8:21:13 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

I fully support Pope Benedict XVI’s efforts to lead Fellay and his apostate group home.

I fully support the Catechism, which compilation he led as CDF head.

You seem to be confused about me.

Why do you support those who have been and remain apostates for decades in their brazen public hemming and hawing about whether to hummbly submit to the authority of Peter’s successor?


26 posted on 06/20/2012 3:07:35 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

Can you clarify if by “Pope” you were referring to Ratzinger or Fellay?


27 posted on 06/20/2012 3:10:36 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

I guess in your view states don’t have the authority to impose and enforce speed limits because so many cops and prosecutors drive above the speed limit in their daily routine (just like most people do).

Fellay is an apostate and he. The shepherd Pope Benedict XVI is attempting to bring him back into the fold as a sheep, but Fellay apparently won’t abide any shepherd himself (apparently he is above that). Fellay’s attitude is very Protestant (”I am my own pope”).


28 posted on 06/20/2012 3:53:59 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

I guess in your view states don’t have the authority to impose and enforce speed limits because so many cops and prosecutors drive above the speed limit in their daily routine (just like most people do).

Fellay is an apostate. The shepherd Pope Benedict XVI is attempting to bring him back into the fold as a sheep, but Fellay apparently won’t abide any shepherd himself (apparently he is above that). Fellay’s attitude is very Protestant (”I am my own pope”).


29 posted on 06/20/2012 3:54:43 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: marshmallow
spelled out the doctrinal difficulties posed by the Second Vatican Council and the Novus Ordo Missae

Good. No time to go wobbly, Archbishop.

30 posted on 06/20/2012 5:10:15 AM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

UNDERSTANDING THE CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

John Hardon

The twentieth century is the most critical in the history of Christianity. The decades since 1900 are more than so many years that might just as well apply to any other period of history. They mark the beginning of a new age in human civilization and correspondingly, of the Christian religion.
What does this have to do with our subject, “Understanding the Catechism of the Catholic Church?” Everything. Unless we realize the gravity of the crisis through which the Church is now passing, we shall look on the Catechism of the Catholic Church as just another book, or just another piece of religious literature. Which is not true.

This Catechism is of historic importance. Depending on how seriously we take it, the future of the Catholic Church will be shaped accordingly. No one who has any knowledge of our age should have any doubt about the contemporary crisis in Christianity. A crisis, by definition, is a turning point in the course of anything. The course of the Christian religion will, in large measure, depend on whether we see this Catechism as an act of God.

He is providing us with the opportunity of helping to make the twenty-first century the most glorious since the coming of Christ, but on one condition: that we capitalize on the gift He is giving us in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

There are three aspects of this subject as follows: 

• Understanding the content or the what of the Catechism of the Catholic
   Church.
• Understanding the importance or the why of this Catechism.
• Understanding our obligation to put this gift of God into apostolic use, or
   the how of the Catechism.

UNDERSTANDING THE FAITH TAUGHT BY THE CATECHISM

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not a mere collection of doctrines. It provides the groundwork for understanding what we Catholics believe. On this level, the Catechism is unique.

The Holy Spirit guiding the Church knows that the modern world is the most academically sophisticated in history. In America alone, over five million students go to college every year. We are trained to the hilt in every humanistic subject under the sun. But most Catholics are undereducated in their faith. The result is predictable. By the time they finish even high school, they find themselves in conflict in their own minds. If anything, they are overeducated in science, history, and world literature. At the same time, their minds have been, to say the least, undereducated in knowing the religion they profess. What happens? They abandon their Catholic faith as a remnant of childhood.

The Catechism provides the beginning of what should be considered the single greatest Catholic need in the world today, namely, to understand what we believe.

Recall the sower parable of Our Lord as narrated by St. Matthew. The sower in the parable sows all good seed, but on four different kinds of ground. Only the last soil produces any yield. It is especially the first fruitless soil that applies to these reflections.

In the words of Christ, as the sower sowed the seed, “some seeds fell on the edge of the path; and the birds came and ate them up.”

When the disciples asked Jesus to explain the parable, He told them, “When anyone hears the words of the Kingdom without understanding, the evil one comes and carries off what was sown in his heart. This is the man who received the seed on the edge of the path” (Matthew 13:10, 18-19).

This is both simple and tragic. The seed of God’s revealed truth has been sown into our hearts at Baptism. But that was only the beginning. We must do everything in our power to grasp the meaning of what we believe. Otherwise the devil will come along and steal the faith from our hearts.

There has never been a substitute for understanding our Christian religion. There is no substitute today. But now, this understanding is absolutely imperative. The world in which we live is hell-bent on stealing from our hearts what we believe.

That is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church is such a providential Godsend. It provides the believing Catholic not only with information about what to believe. It also gives us an explanation of the meaning of what we believe.

Of course, the Catechism is only a start. But it promises to be a powerful initiative for waking up a sleeping Catholic world to the duty we have, to know:

• What we are to believe on the revealed word of God
• What the faith we profess is all about
• That Christianity is the most credible religion in the world and, within
   Christianity, that the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth
• That, as a result, we Catholics have a grave responsibility for educating a
   world that is wandering in darkness and the shadow of death.

UNDERSTANDING WHY THE CATECHISM IS SO IMPORTANT

It is one thing to know theoretically what Catholics are to believe. It is something else to know where to find the true faith expressed in straightforward and unambiguous language.

The confusion among Catholics on even the most fundamental doctrines of faith and morals is widespread.

Part of my work for the Church requires that I read books by professed Catholics, which show how deep this confusion really is. Just two examples out of a thousand. In the first example, the author is speaking of the Mass as a memorial of the Last Supper.

The Church recreates the Last Supper by bringing followers of Jesus together and recalling through readings and prayers what God has done for His people. Then the priest announces what Jesus said and did at the Last Supper and himself offers bread (and on some occasions wine) to the people to eat.

Then to explain just what this means, the author asks, “How is Jesus present at Mass?” He answers that Christ is “present in a real way in the bread and wine that symbolize His body and blood.”

There is no such ambiguity or heterodoxy in the Catechism of the Catholic Church. People may not want to accept what the Catechism teaches. No problem. Not everyone wants to be a Catholic.

The second example just came to my attention. A large circulating national Catholic newspaper carried a full-page advertisement released by the Seamless Garment Network, Inc. The ad is signed by scores of prominent people, and a corresponding score of national organizations. The basic theme of the ad is to equate such moral issues as abortion and capital punishment, claiming that both issues are part of the same seamless garment fabric. This is not true. But how is the average reader to know, when he sees Catholic bishops and prominent professed Catholics placing the murder of unborn children in the same category as justly condemned criminals?

Someone, somewhere in the Church founded by Christ must be in a position to tell the faithful, “this is true, and that is false;” or “this is morally good, and that is morally bad.” Otherwise, the very existence of Christianity is in danger and the survival of the Catholic Church in any given country or locality is in jeopardy.

In many dioceses of America, attendance at Sunday Mass is down to some twenty-five percent of the professed Catholics in a diocese. Some Church officials are scrambling for a solution and recommending the most bizarre solutions. It never seems to dawn on these “experts” that the heart of the problem is the massive uncertainty in millions of Catholic minds about what is unchangeable doctrine in faith and moral principles.

That is why the Catechism of the Catholic Church has not been released one month too soon. It is the hope of restoring unity to a pathetically dismembered Christianity.

UNDERSTANDING HOW TO USE THE CATECHISM

There is still one more important aspect of this subject to explain; it is also the most important practical question that needs raising. How is The New Catechism of the Catholic Church to be put into apostolic use.

Before going any further, certain things should be made clear.

• This Catechism is no mere reference work that we may occasionally
   consult, like a standard dictionary or encyclopedia.
• This Catechism is no mere summary of religious ideas or ideals that provide
   a readable handbook on how Catholics think.

No, the Catechism is an indispensable arm of instruction on every level of the teaching apostolate.

We now have a one-volume reservoir of Catholic truth and practice for everyone who wants to bring others to Christ, if they are not yet Christians; to solidify the faith of those who have been baptized; to defend Roman Catholicism in a world in which the Church has been abandoned by so many once-believing Catholics and is being betrayed even by some of her ecclesiastical leaders.

The question, however, still remains: How to use the Catechism in the apostolate of evangelization and catechesis? I have five recommendations:

• Know the Catechism 
• Trust the Catechism 
• Adapt the Catechism 
• Live the Catechism 
• Share the Catechism

Each of these recommendations deserves detailed explanation. We shall be satisfied with just a short comment about each of the five.

Know the Catechism. Our most fundamental duty is to know the Catechism. How do you come to know anything? By reading, by discussing, by hearing it explained by competent persons.

Speed reading of the Catechism would be self-defeating. If anything, the Catechism should be not only read but prayerfully meditated. Spend some time set aside for reflecting, in God’s presence, what the Catechism teaches through more than 500 pages of print.

How much time people waste in reading fiction, or worse. Is it too much for Christ to expect us to spend a few hours a week in reading, alone or with others, what promises to be the food that feeds the soul on revealed truth?

Trust the Catechism. Already, critics have appeared who discredit the Catechism on both sides of the spectrum.

• Some criticize it for being outmoded and out of touch with the times.

• Others criticize it for giving in to Modernism and therefore discredit what the Vicar of Christ is offering the believing faithful for their spiritual sustenance in a world that is dying out of hunger for the truth.

Pay no attention to these critics. To distrust the Catechism is to play into the hand of the devil, who fears nothing more than security of doctrine among the followers of Christ.

Adapt the Catechism. The Catechism is not simple reading. But neither is it sophisticated and out-of-touch with the vocabulary of the people. In any case, the Catechism contains all the essentials for Catholic faith, morality, and divine worship.

In using the Catechism to teach others, adjust the language to the mentality of those you are teaching. Adapt the ideas, without watering them down. Accommodate what the Catechism says, to the mental and spiritual level of those with whom you are sharing God’s truth.

Live the Catechism. This is no pious platitude. Teaching the true faith is unlike any other form of pedagogy.

The purpose of teaching the Catholic faith is to enable those you are teaching to practice the virtues which Christ expects of His followers. Very well, but how do you enable those you teach to practice what they have learned? You don’t! Only Christ can give them the grace they need to practice what they believe. So how do they get the grace they need? From Christ, of course. But through you, their teachers.

What are we saying? We are saying that God uses holy people as channels of His grace to others. In the measure of our own union with Him, He will communicate to those we teach the light and strength they need to live the Christian faith. God uses humble people to give others the gift of humility. He uses chaste people as conduits of His grace of chastity; patient people to inspire patience; prayerful people to make others prayerful.

In a word, if we live the Catechism, we become instruments of divine faith to everyone whose life we touch. This, we may say, is the law of spiritual generation. Sanctity is reproductive; holiness is procreative.

Share the Catechism. One final point should be made: On the last day we shall be judged on our practice of charity. How we hope that when Christ appears, He will say to us, “Come, blessed of my Father, and possess the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. I was hungry, and you gave me to eat; thirsty and you gave me to drink; naked and you clothed me, sick and in prison and you visited me.”

What does this have to do with the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Everything! This masterpiece of sacred wisdom provides us with all the resources we need to meet the spiritual needs of America. But we must be convinced that these needs are desperate, and that we have at hand the means of saving the soul of our society.

PRAYER

“Lord Jesus, you have given us the Catechism of the Catholic Church to bring light to those who are walking in darkness and supernatural life to those who are sitting in the shadow of death.
“Enlighten our minds with your revealed truth and inspire our hearts with your divine love — so that by our courageous witness to your Name here on earth we may bring countless souls with us to that heavenly Kingdom for which we were made. Amen.”


31 posted on 06/20/2012 5:30:45 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding

You think Fellay is the Pope?1?! In that case, I guess I don’t have anything to tell you. I didn’t even think the SSPX regarded him as pope, so you must be part of a very small group that does. On what basis?


32 posted on 06/20/2012 8:46:07 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding
I fully support Pope Benedict XVI’s efforts to lead Fellay and his apostate group home.

Your statement is a contradiction. If you supported the Pope's efforts, you would act in charity towards it, not use insulting terms. I'm going along with Pope Benedict the whole way. The things you are saying just don't coincide with what Pope Benedict says, namely that the SSPX has NO canonical status, but no ecclesiastical penalty. I don't know why you don't trust Pope Benedict. He knows this situation better than anyone. He's not being fooled, as you seem to think.

33 posted on 06/20/2012 8:56:51 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

Fellay is imitating the worst practices of those who got their way by being disobedient: those who used altar girls at Mass did so illicitly and after years of the illicit and abusive practice, the Vatican accommodated the practice.

It was imprudent and harmful then, and it is imprudent and harmful now. It seems to be scandalous in both instances: gross flaunting of authority is rewarded.


34 posted on 06/20/2012 9:39:21 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding

Nevertheless, I personally understand (though I don’t think most people do) Benedict’s attempt to bring the errant sheep back into the fold - that is why I think it nears scandal (because most people will see it as acquiescence to gross disobedience)


35 posted on 06/20/2012 9:42:38 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

Why do you support those who have been and remain apostates for decades in their brazen public hemming and hawing about whether to humbly submit to the authority of Peter’s successor?


36 posted on 06/20/2012 9:44:28 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

YOUR support of Fellay, nickcarawy, causes a prudent person to wonder whom YOU think is pope.

That is why I asked you: “Can you clarify if by “Pope” you were referring to Ratzinger or Fellay?”

Your attempt at misunderstanding this is hilarious.


37 posted on 06/20/2012 9:47:29 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding

How do you twist support for Pope Benedict into something bad?
You apparently aren’t submitting to Peter’s successor.
1. Pope Benedict is our Pope. Because of our previous office, he probably knows more about what’s going on than most Popes do.
2. He has undertaken to negotiate with this group, SSPX. If you read all he’s written, he gives some intimation that he finds this significant.
3. As these negotiations proceed, I think it would be uncharitable to the Pope’s mission to insult the group he’s negotiating with. is that so hard to understand? It’s out of respect to the Pope. Do you see that being insulting etc. to the group he is earnestly working with is not helpful to him. The only thing I can imagine, is you think he’s being tricked by this group. I can’t imagine that will be the case. I am sure the Pope knows all their faults and virtues better than anyone else in the world. Why can’t you just trust him? Why can’t you let him worry about it? He’s up to it. You act like I’m evil if I don’t insult this group. Why should I? Pope Benedict is resolving it, without any interference from us. He’s not going to be hornswaggled by them. Just trust him.


38 posted on 06/20/2012 10:27:11 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding

Your misunderstanding is sad. Pope Benedict is our Pope, and he’s a great one. Backhandedly sabotaging him is not “supporting him.” Not trusting him is not, “supporting him.”
I am not, “supporting Fellay,” unless you just consider the charity due to Pope Benedict’s project to be, undue “support,” of Fellay. Do you want to be, “more Catholic than the Pope”


39 posted on 06/20/2012 10:41:26 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

Your 21 and 24 are snotty replies that intentionally misstate my own adamant support of Benedict XVI and his efforts to bring Fellay back into the fold.

Your schtick is neither remotely funny nor remotely clever.

Fellay is being disrespectful in the face of Benedict’s cordial overtures - and it does no harm to state so plainly, as well to state all that flows from that.

Your intentional misconstruing of my perspective and distorting of my comments is not virtuous in the least.


40 posted on 06/20/2012 12:37:01 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

Nothing in my comments even suggests that I don’t applaud and support B16’s efforts to bring Fellay back into the fold.

Why would you be so dishonest and uncharitable and suggest otherwise?


41 posted on 06/20/2012 12:40:47 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

If anything is harmful to B16 it is painting him as an impotent leader - far more harmful than me noting that Fellay is being disrespectful and far less than humble in his dealings with B16.


42 posted on 06/20/2012 12:46:36 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: nickcarraway

If anything is harmful to B16 it is YOUR painting him as an impotent leader in your post 21 - far more harmful than me noting that Fellay is being disrespectful and far less than humble in his dealings with B16.


43 posted on 06/20/2012 12:47:21 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding

He’s the Pope. Of course he’s an important leader.


44 posted on 06/20/2012 1:26:32 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Notwithstanding
Why would you be so dishonest and uncharitable and suggest otherwise?

Didn't you read my post? The Pope is doing this of his own personal initiative. All due charity would suggest to me I shouldn't insult the parties to his negotiation. I don't know why that wouldn't be clear to you. So your insults are actually against the Pope, who you pretend to support.



Imagine this: You are to be a facilitator to negotiations between Israel and Palestinians. You walk in an tell the Palestinians there is no such thing as Palestinians and insult them in other ways. You think that would help? Even if whatever you said was true. Imagine if a president, say Ronald Reagan, had asked you to do it, as part of his efforts. I think, in that case, you would have insulted President Reagan, but doing that.

45 posted on 06/20/2012 1:41:08 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

The pope has not asked anyone to pretend that Fellay has not harmed and is not harming the Church.


46 posted on 06/20/2012 3:34:17 PM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: Notwithstanding

I am praying that both men understand that the issue is not merely, not even primarily of obedience, but rather of seeing the events of Vatican II and especially after it, in the Catholic light: in communion with the Sacred Tradition of the Catholic Church.

Hence I repeat my advice to His Grace: no time to go wobbly.


47 posted on 06/20/2012 5:11:13 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Notwithstanding

“The pope has not asked anyone to pretend that Fellay has not harmed and is not harming the Church.”

I tend to think that you have formed your opinion on the basis of a one-sided version of the facts.


48 posted on 06/20/2012 5:21:06 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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