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Following the Truth: Why I Cringe Every Time I Hear “Safely Home”!
FollowingtheTruth.com ^ | May 29th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 06/16/2012 5:45:41 PM PDT by Salvation

Why I Cringe Every Time I Hear “Safely Home”!

I do not like the poem, “Safely Home”. There, I said it, let the negative comments begin! However, before you write me off as a “nut” or someone who lacks compassion, let me explain why this seemingly comforting poem is not compatible with Catholic teaching and could actually cause your deceased loved ones to suffer needlessly.

Let’s begin by looking at this poem, which is appearing on more and more Catholic prayer cards:

I am home in Heaven, dear ones;
Oh so happy and so bright!
There is perfect joy and beauty
In this everlasting light.

All the pain and grief is over,
Every restless tossing passed;
I am now at peace forever,
Safely home in Heaven at last.

Did you wonder I so calmly
Trod the valley of the shade?
Oh, but Jesus’ love illumined
Every dark and fearful glade.

And He came Himself to meet me
In that way so hard to tread;
And with Jesus’ arm to lean on,
Could I have one doubt or dread?

Then you must not grieve so sorely,
For I love you dearly still,
Try to look beyond earth’s shadows,
Pray to trust our Father’s will.

There is work still waiting for you,
So you must not idly stand;
Do it now, while life remains,
You shall rest in Jesus’ land.

When that work is all completed,
He will gently call you Home;
Oh, the rapture of that meeting,
Oh, the joy to see you come!

(“Safely Home”, author unknown)

On the surface, this poem is very comforting. Who wouldn’t want to know that their deceased loved ones are in Heaven? Unfortunately, the very first line is problematic and makes a statement that no one (other than the Church) has a right to make. Like it or not, unless your relative is a canonized saint, we don’t know if they are in Heaven. While they very well may be, we can never know for sure. Although the thought of their eternal happiness might be comforting to us, it can actually be harmful to the souls of our loved ones. Why? Mainly because if we think someone is in Heaven, we’ll probably stop praying for them!

One of the Spiritual Acts of Mercy is to pray for the living AND THE DEAD. When we pray for the souls of the deceased, we ask the Lord to have mercy on their souls and to accept them into His Heavenly Kingdom. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC):

From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God. The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead. (CCC 1032)

Since the Church teaches that our prayers can benefit the souls in Purgatory, it follows that withholding those prayers will have a negative effect. Many of us can remember those days when praying for the souls in Purgatory was a “given” for Catholics. Although I’m stretching my memory a bit, it was just something we did. Here is a example, taken from the foreword of an old prayer book that I found on eBay:

Where Purgatory is, what individuals go there, how long they remain there, are questions which the Church does not answer. She does tell us, however, that the souls in Purgatory can pray for us, and that we, in turn, can hasten their departure from Purgatory by our charities, prayers and especially, by offering and having offered the Holy Mass in their behalf. (Prefatory Note, Our Dear Dead – A Little Book Of Remembrance, 1931 – Passionist Missions)

The concept of Purgatory can be supported by Sacred Scripture (Matthew 12:32, 1 Corinthians 3:15, Revelation 21:27), as can the practice of praying for the souls being purified there (2 Maccabees 12:42-46). We also see evidence of this practice in the writings of the Early Church Fathers:

“A woman, after the death of her husband…prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first Resurrection. And, each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice.” (Tertullian of Carthage, 218 A.D.)

“Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first patriarchs, prophets, apostles, martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God will receive our petition. Then on behalf of the holy fathers and bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth.” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem, 350 A.D.)

“Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.” (St. John Chrysostom, 392 A.D.)

So what happens if our deceased loved ones are in Heaven and not in purgatory. Will our prayers be wasted? Not at all. We trust that the Lord will apply those prayers to those for whom they are needed. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia (1917 Edition):

The distribution of the fruits of the communion of saints among the dead, as among the living, rests ultimately in the hands of God, and is one of the secrets of His economy. We cannot doubt that it is His will that we should pray not only for the souls in Purgatory collectively, but individually with whom we have been bound on earth by special personal ties. Nor can we doubt the general efficacy of our rightly disposed prayers for our specially chosen ones as well as for those whom we leave it to Him to choose. This is sufficient to inspire and to guide us in our offices of charity and piety towards the dead; we may confidently commit the application of their fruits to the wisdom and justice of God.

Now that I’ve discussed the theory and the importance of praying for the dead, how can we put it into practice? While I would never recommend reminding a grieving relative or friend that their deceased loved one may not be in Heaven, here are some concrete steps we can take:

1. Assume that our deceased family members and friends are in Purgatory.
2. Have Masses said for our deceased loved ones and friends.
3. Obtain indulgences for the souls in Purgatory.
4. Offer up our suffering and make voluntary sacrifices on behalf of these souls.
5. Pray for the souls in Purgatory EVERY day.
6. Be careful what we say at funerals. Avoid canonizing anyone (“He’s definitely in Heaven”). Instead simply say “His suffering is over” ,”He’s at peace” or “He’s in a better place” or “I’ll pray for his soul”.

While it may not seem like a big deal, imagine you’re that soul in purgatory (unable to help yourself) while nobody on earth is praying for you or offering Masses for your soul. Suddenly it becomes a very big deal! Also, when we think about how many millions of souls are not being prayed for (Protestants, Jews, atheists, etc.) we can appreciate the need for helping them out.

Finally, if any of you happen to hear of my passing from this life…

PLEASE PRAY FOR MY SOUL!

Eternal rest grant unto them, O Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May the souls of the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen. (Indulgenced prayer for the souls in Purgatory)



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; heaven; purgatory
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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I agree with Gary Zimak here. (Remember, that only a person's body dies and is buried; their soul is still very much alive!)

Comments?

1 posted on 06/16/2012 5:45:50 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: Salvation

As death finds you so shall the judgement.


2 posted on 06/16/2012 5:48:59 PM PDT by reflecting
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To: reflecting

Amen. The particular judgment at the moment of our death. And the Final Judgment at the Second Coming of Christ.


3 posted on 06/16/2012 5:50:28 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: reflecting

Amen. The particular judgment at the moment of our death. And the Final Judgment at the Second Coming of Christ.


4 posted on 06/16/2012 5:50:35 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I do not believe purgatory is biblical, I find no example of it in the bible, therefore it causes greater anguish to pray for those who have lost all hope.


5 posted on 06/16/2012 5:55:47 PM PDT by ThisLittleLightofMine
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To: Salvation
Eternal rest grant unto them, Lord, and let perpetual light shine upon them. May their souls rest in peace.

As to the poem ...

1) I do not agree with the theology it expresses. If I did agree with it, I would be protestant, because it expressed Protestant theology. I have no doubt that protestants will come along on this thread to inform us that they're right and we're wrong ... in pre-emption: Hey Protestants! We're right and you're wrong.

2) Even if I did agree with the theology in the poem, I would still dislike it ... it's really syrupy. Bleh!

6 posted on 06/16/2012 5:55:47 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine

Same here, TLLo’M, I think your fate is sealed once you die. I don’t find purgatory biblical.


7 posted on 06/16/2012 5:58:38 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation

Oh, if you want to get people angry, tell them their pets are not in Heaven. They’ll fuss at that more than if you tell them Grampa isn’t in Heaven.

There’s nothing in Scripture that indicates our animals will meet us in Heaven but you’ll be taking your life in your hands if you tell most people that.


8 posted on 06/16/2012 6:08:04 PM PDT by OrangeHoof (Our economy won't heal until one particular black man is unemployed.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Well, I’m Protestant, and I agree with you about why the poem’s theology is wrong, I just also happen to disagree with you about praying for the dead.

That being said, pretty much my entire family is Catholic, and I’ve attended plenty of Catholic funeral services where the priest assured the assembled family that their departed loved one was in a better place. Maybe the priests didn’t really believe that theologically, but I think, in that situation, both Protestants and Catholics tend to care more about comforting the grieving than being theologically accurate.


9 posted on 06/16/2012 6:10:12 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Persevero

How about the quote from Jesus: “Until you have paid the last penny.”

He wasn’t talking about hell.


10 posted on 06/16/2012 6:12:02 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Persevero; ThisLittleLightofMine

Purgatory

Mt 5:48 - be perfect as your

heavenly Father is perfect

Heb 12:14 - strive for that holiness without which cannot see God

Jam 3:2 - we all fall short in many respects

Rev 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven

Jam 1:14-15 - when sin reaches maturity gives birth to death

2Sam 12:13-14 - David, though forgiven, still punished for his sin

Mt 5:26 - you will not be released until paid last penny

Mt 12:32 - sin against Holy Spirit unforgiven in this age or next

Mt 12:36 - account for every idle word of judgment day

2Macc 12:44-46 - atoned for dead to free them from sin

1Cor 3:15 - suffer loss, but saved as through fire

1Pet 3:18-20; 4:6 - Jesus preached to spirits in prison

2Tim 1:16-18 - Paul prays for dead friend Onesiphorus


11 posted on 06/16/2012 6:17:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: OrangeHoof

So true, but then again, there I don’t think there are any verses saying they definitely aren’t going to be there, and I don’t see any real harmful repercussion from people believing in that wishful thinking, so I just hold my tongue.


12 posted on 06/16/2012 6:18:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine

Here are some biblical references that are used to support the concept of Purgatory.

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html


13 posted on 06/16/2012 6:18:21 PM PDT by HerrBlucher
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To: Salvation

The mistake is in assuming that there is time in Purgatory and Heaven. The dead are not in Purgatory for a certain number of days, hours, and minutes that corresponds to time here on earth, so we can’t say “It’s been twenty years since Jerry died, he must have been purified and been received into heaven by this time.” The dead must perceive these things in a very different way than we do.


14 posted on 06/16/2012 6:22:10 PM PDT by ottbmare (The OTTB Mare)
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To: Salvation
Perhaps consider the genre of literature...

This is a long-used familiar POEM intended to convey comfort to the family and friends of the departed....

It's doubtful the poet intended to make a doctrinal treatise of any sort.

Such offerings of printed literature in the Order of Service ... or special music... are usually the wishes of the deceased-- or the preference of the family.

...and therefore not intended to serve as religious instruction for the congregation.

15 posted on 06/16/2012 6:31:13 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: Salvation

“Safely Home” has been been much comfort to me since July 1970 at my mothers death.

The Apostle Paul wrote:”If there be any consolation in Christ, if any comfort (and there is in our Lord Jesus Christ) Philippians 2:1a

On that tract the verse: “Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of His Saints.” (Psalms 116:15) I found another verse:”.....as I live saith the LORD God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked,....” (Ezekiel 33:11c)

All can have confidence in Our God and Saviour’s words.
Again the Apostle letters “to the Saints” in the Churches: In Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi etc.

We can confidently claim: “Being confident of this very thing, that He which hath begun a good word in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.” (Philippians 1:6)
Adding mortal man’s approval is vain, mortal men die.

We have a Saviour that had no sin but died for sinners. And He is sitting at the right hand of God, “everliving to make intercession for us.” (Hebrews 7:23-28)


16 posted on 06/16/2012 6:33:23 PM PDT by Letmarch75
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic Ping!


17 posted on 06/16/2012 6:59:07 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Boogieman

There is no direct statement although I think Matthew 7:6 might be a clue. If dogs are not to receive what is holy, it could be argued either that dogs are not in need of salvation because they are incapable of sin or dogs are merely earthly creatures without eternal souls.


18 posted on 06/16/2012 7:04:49 PM PDT by OrangeHoof (Our economy won't heal until one particular black man is unemployed.)
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To: OrangeHoof

Well, Matthew 7:6 is a metaphor, I think you may be reading too much into it.


19 posted on 06/16/2012 7:16:22 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: ArrogantBustard

The poem made my teeth ache.


20 posted on 06/16/2012 7:17:06 PM PDT by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Salvation
I would like to recommend this to you.
21 posted on 06/16/2012 7:23:18 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine

22 posted on 06/16/2012 7:27:39 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: OrangeHoof
Oh, if you want to get people angry, tell them their pets are not in Heaven.

I once heard a very wise woman answer the "I don't want to go to Heaven if my dog isn't there" statement with this brilliant comment: "If that's what it takes to make you happy in Heaven, your dog will be there." The woman who'd originally made the statement had to stop and really ponder that. I think she realized what will really bring joy in Heaven.

23 posted on 06/16/2012 7:39:26 PM PDT by Kharis13 (That noise you hear is our Founding Fathers spinning in their graves.)
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To: ThisLittleLightofMine; FatherofFive
I do not believe purgatory is biblical, I find no example of it in the bible, therefore it causes greater anguish to pray for those who have lost all hope.

Let's look at a couple of points taken directly from the Bible:

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

We know several things:

1) They were not in heaven since there would have been no need for Jesus to go to them.

2) They were not in Hell since once you are in hell there is no getting out.

3)We know that they had committed some sins, but they were not serious to be sent to hell for them.

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

This tells us you must be clean (Free of sin) to enter heaven. After they met Jesus they were able to enter heaven. That pretty much fits the criteria for purgatory.

24 posted on 06/16/2012 7:51:44 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Boogieman; Salvation; narses; ArrogantBustard
That being said, pretty much my entire family is Catholic, and I’ve attended plenty of Catholic funeral services where the priest assured the assembled family that their departed loved one was in a better place. Maybe the priests didn’t really believe that theologically, but I think, in that situation, both Protestants and Catholics tend to care more about comforting the grieving than being theologically accurate.

Several years ago I had to have a fairly minor surgical procedure. I went to confession before hand and told my priest that if anything should happen that he was not to say that I was in a better place. I told him instead I wanted him to say that if I was lucky I made it to purgatory. He told me he would keep that in mind.

25 posted on 06/16/2012 7:58:44 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Salvation

My mother passed in 1985
My father passed in 1995

I don’t care who says what or how they say it or what they are thinking... that simple little prayer on the cards gives comfort to lots of people who are grieving. It’s a NICE thing. However, I pray for the souls of my parents every single day. I will pray for them as long as I have breath left in my own body. So, some simple, little comforting prayer that helps people along isn’t hurting anything and for Heaven’s sakes... to go into such detail over such a pretty sentiment is simply amazing to me. Keep praying for ALL the souls. THAT is what is important. To disect such a comforting poem to the degree this was disected is outrageously ridiculous.


26 posted on 06/16/2012 8:01:38 PM PDT by cubreporter
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To: verga

Sounds like he basically said “no promises”, since he couldn’t be sure he’d have the guts to say that in the face of the mourning family.


27 posted on 06/16/2012 8:03:06 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

You are probably correct but we did have a laugh over it afterward. Sadly I moved 500 miles away and really miss talking to him on a regular basis.


28 posted on 06/16/2012 8:06:14 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: cubreporter
For all who have suffered the loss of a loved one.

Beginning Experience, a peer facilitated weekend for those who are grieving the loss of a loved one..

29 posted on 06/16/2012 8:08:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga

The verses from Peter refer to the spirits of the “Sons of God” who were imprisoned in the bottomless pit for their disobedience, in the days of Noah. That’s the only sensible reason for that reference to be in there. Otherwise, you must conclude that Jesus only preached to people who had died long ago, and just skipped over the dead in all those intervening centuries.

The verse from Revelation also is not supportive of purgatory, since we know from Rev. 13:8 that the names were written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. Therefore, you can’t write your name in now by “purging” yourself.


30 posted on 06/16/2012 8:19:15 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Boogieman

Clearly there is a third state that is niether heaven nor hell. Do you see that?


31 posted on 06/16/2012 8:38:29 PM PDT by verga (Party like it is 1773)
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To: Salvation

I appreciate the Bible verses, as I do believe they are the very word of God; however, none of them convince me of an existence of purgatory.

I do believe the judgement day is a particular day coming, and then we are resurrected, and our bodies are reunited with our souls, and some go down to hell, and others to heaven.

However, in the interim, we read for example of the Rich Man and Lazarus. The Rich Man is in hell. And we go to the thief on the cross, who is told by Jesus, “Today you shall be with me in Paradise.”

So we see that dead men are in one place or the other.

As for Onesiphorus, I do not know that he was dead when Paul wrote 1st Timothy.


32 posted on 06/16/2012 8:40:14 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation

Where exactly did Jesus mention purgatory?


33 posted on 06/16/2012 8:42:31 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Salvation

“How about the quote from Jesus: “Until you have paid the last penny.”

He wasn’t talking about hell.”

Here is the verse you are meaning? (Luke 12):

“58 When thou goest with thine adversary to the magistrate, as thou art in the way, give diligence that thou mayest be delivered from him; lest he hale thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and the officer cast thee into prison.

59 I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite.”

Again I confess it as the word of God, but I don’t believe it is teaching us that purgatory exists. It just doesn’t seem to be the plain meaning of the text to me.


34 posted on 06/16/2012 8:44:56 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation

Here is what it says on Gene Krupa’s prayer card. [Yes, THAT Gene Krupa.]

In Loving Memory of

Gene B. Krupa

Born January 15, 1909

At Rest, October 16, 1973

Services Saturday Oct. 20, 1973

Immaculate Conception Church
Mass at 9:30 A.M.

Internment Holy Cross Cemetary
Section Immaculate-Lot 22

LET US PRAY:

O GENTLEST Heart of Jesus, ever present in the Blessed Sacrament, ever consumed with burning love for the poor captive souls in Purgatory have mercy on the soul of Thy departed servant. Be not severe in Thy judgment but let some drops of Thy Precious Blood fall upon the devouring flames, and do Thou O merciful Savior send Thy angels to conduct Thy departed servant to a place of refreshment, light and peace. Amen.

May the souls of all the faithful departed through the mercy of God, rest in peace. Amen.


Sadowski Funeral Home

President Kennedy’s prayer card:

‘We have loved him during life, let us not abandon him, until we have conducted him by our prayers into the house of the Lord.’—St. Ambrose

My Jesus have mercy on the Soul of

JOHN FITZGERALD KENNEDY

PRAYER

Incline Thine ear, O Lord unto our prayers, wherein we humbly pray Thee to show Thy mercy upon the soul of Thy servant JOHN, whom Thou hast commanded to pass out of this world, that Thou wouldst place him in the region of peace and light, and bid him be a partaker with Thy Saints, Through Christ our Lord. Amen.

[Indulgence 500 days-Raccotta 600]


35 posted on 06/16/2012 8:58:11 PM PDT by bigoil (Study Thy Nixon)
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To: Lurker

You asked for it! Please read these links. They have that information.


36 posted on 06/16/2012 8:58:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Lurker
You asked for it! Please read these links. They have that information.

What the Church means by Purgatory
Radio Replies Second Volume - Purgatory
Purgatory Exists. And It Burns
The Month of November: Thoughts on the "Last Things"
To Trace All Souls Day (Protestants vs Catholics)
Radio Replies First Volume - Purgatory
The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]
The Heroic Act [Catholic-Orthodox Caucus] (Offering everything for the Souls in Purgatory)
MONTLIGEON MIRACLE: HOW PRIEST TURNED INTO 'TRAVELING SALESMAN' OF PURGATORY

IN BRUSH WITH DEATH, PRIEST SHOWN HELL, PURGATORY, DEGREES OF SUFFERING
Praying for the Dead [All Souls Day] (Catholic/Orthodox Caucus)
Purgatory: Service Shop for Heaven [Ecumernical]
Beginning Catholic: Catholic Purgatory: What Does It Mean? [Ecumenical]
OF GUARDIAN ANGELS AND THE ROLE THEY PLAY NOT JUST ON EARTH BUT IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
IN ANNALS OF SAINTS IS CONVERT'S STRIKING DEDICATION TO THOSE SOULS IN PURGATORY [Catholic Caucus]
Explaining Purgatory from a New Testament Perspective [Ecumenical]
PURIFYING THE SOUL ON EARTH IS WORTH 100X WHAT IT TAKES AFTER [Catholic Caucus] What Happens After Death?
Purgatory
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 12: Purgatory

The Doctrine of Purgatory
The Early Church Fathers on Purgatory - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
Required for entrance to Purgatory? Personal question for Cathloic Freepers.
(Protestant) Minister Who Had Near-Death Episode Believes In Purgatory
Straight Answers: What Is Purgatory Like?
Do Catholics Believe in Purgatory?
Purgatory, Indulgences, and the Work of Jesus Christ (Discussion)
Prayer to Release the Souls of Purgatory
The Forgotten Souls in Purgatory
Praying for the dead [Purgatory]

37 posted on 06/16/2012 8:58:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Persevero

The “Paradise” that Christ spoke of was a waiting place. Where do you think all the good people of the Old Testament were until Jesus opened heaven?

You do believe that Jesus was the first one into heaven, don’t you?


38 posted on 06/16/2012 9:01:00 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: verga

Yes, but it’s not a place where it is possible for men to go. The spirits in prison are the in the place referred to in Jude 1:6 -

“6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.”

and Rev 9:1-3 -

“9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.”

and again in Rev 20:1-3 -

“20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.”

All four references paint the same picture, of a place where spirits (angels) are imprisoned for their disobedience to God, awaiting their judgement. That’s the interesting thing about the original verse that you posted, it shows that the mercy of Jesus was so great, He even gave the disobedient angels a chance to repent and be reconciled!


39 posted on 06/16/2012 9:08:50 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Salvation

I didn’t ask what the Church, or priests had to say on the issue. I asked where exactly Jesus mentioned the word “purgatory”.

You can either point to Chapter and Verse where Jesus talked about it, or you can not.

Which one is it?


40 posted on 06/16/2012 9:11:07 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: cubreporter
My mother passed in 1985
My father passed in 1995

I don’t care who says what or how they say it or what they are thinking... that simple little prayer on the cards gives comfort to lots of people who are grieving. It’s a NICE thing. However, I pray for the souls of my parents every single day. I will pray for them as long as I have breath left in my own body. So, some simple, little comforting prayer that helps people along isn’t hurting anything and for Heaven’s sakes... to go into such detail over such a pretty sentiment is simply amazing to me. Keep praying for ALL the souls. THAT is what is important. To disect such a comforting poem to the degree this was disected is outrageously ridiculous.

I don't think you understand - the absolute joy of 90% of Christians, both Protestant and Catholic, is to talk about and ruminate upon how other people are going to go to hell.

That schadenfreude is the very point of the religion, you see. If you took that away - if you, for example, limited them to positive statements for other's good will, of the teaching of their own humility in not being able to judge others, like that guy said to do... uh... Jesus, that's it - Jesus, said to do, well, what's the fun in that? How would you know who was going to be a sinner? Why, the entire way to keep out of hell is to constantly talk about who's going there! After all, that's what Jesus did, right? He told everyone all about their sins, and how they weren't good enough.

I stopped worrying about what Catholics thought when I realized that they literally believe that ALL Protestants are going to hell - all of them, by definition. And, likewise, I stopped worrying about what Protestants thought when I realized that they believe ALL Catholics are going to hell - all of them, by definition.

Jesus wept.

41 posted on 06/16/2012 9:18:27 PM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: Lurker
Is your mind closed to this idea? Sin puts us either in hell or in Purgatory. Even though we say we are sorry, we may have hurt other people through our sinful actions.

And, of course, one needs to be totally pure to enter heaven; do you you believe that?

1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned. The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.

1498 Through indulgences the faithful can obtain the remission of temporal punishment resulting from sin for themselves and also for the souls in Purgatory.

1475 In the communion of saints, "a perennial link of charity exists between the faithful who have already reached their heavenly home, those who are expiating their sins in purgatory and those who are still pilgrims on earth. Between them there is, too, an abundant exchange of all good things." In this wonderful exchange, the holiness of one profits others, well beyond the harm that the sin of one could cause others. Thus recourse to the communion of saints lets the contrite sinner be more promptly and efficaciously purified of the punishments for sin.
1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.

42 posted on 06/16/2012 9:19:47 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

“The “Paradise” that Christ spoke of was a waiting place. Where do you think all the good people of the Old Testament were until Jesus opened heaven?

You do believe that Jesus was the first one into heaven, don’t you?”

I think believers - those who believed in a Messiah yet to come - went to heaven and continue to go there. I think of Enoch, who walked with God, and then was no more, because God took him. Or Moses and Elijah, appearing on the Mount of Transfiguration. Elijah actually went to heaven in a chariot of fire. Or Lazarus in the parable Jesus told. He was in Abraham’s bosom, so therefore Abraham is there.

I think Jesus was in heaven from the beginning, since He is God, and then came to earth at the appointed time as an incarnate human being. He was resurrected and has returned to heaven and remains there to this day, sitting at the right hand of the Father until all His enemies are made the footstool of His feet.

That’s how I read it.


43 posted on 06/16/2012 9:21:50 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Persevero

Interesting point of view.

How to do you explain all the graves being opened after Christ’s death on the Cross and the spirits of the dead walking around Jerusalem — visibile to only believers?

I interpretation, and I believe that of the Church too, is that those people’s spirits did rise from their graves and wait until Jesus rose from his to follow him into heaven.

I’m no theologian, this is just what I have always believed.


44 posted on 06/16/2012 9:28:26 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Persevero

The other thing that is always evident is that God can do all things and has no lateral timeline as we interpret a timeline.

There are quotes about a short time being as a thousand years.

So during those three days, an instant with God, Jesus visited Purgatory and announced the good news to them. Could be possible, right?


45 posted on 06/16/2012 9:31:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Ok then. So Jesus never once mentioned purgatory. So the Catholic church invented it.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Have a nice day.


46 posted on 06/16/2012 9:54:27 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: Salvation

“So during those three days, an instant with God, Jesus visited Purgatory and announced the good news to them. Could be possible, right?”

If there is a purgatory, sure. But I don’t see any evidence for one.

So what was Jesus doing, preaching to spirits in a prison? I don’t know. There is reference made there to the days of Noah. It is a mystery to me.


47 posted on 06/16/2012 11:04:57 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation

“How to do you explain all the graves being opened after Christ’s death on the Cross and the spirits of the dead walking around Jerusalem — visibile to only believers?”

Well, it is obviously some sort of resurrection. A first fruits, perhaps?


48 posted on 06/16/2012 11:05:45 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Salvation
I believe their soul is alive at death in one of two states. Either with The LORD in His presence or in hell banished forever. Does one need purging before heaven? Let's see what Paul said even while he was alive.

2 Corinthians 12 1This boasting is all so foolish, but let me go on. Let me tell about the visions and revelations I received from the Lord. 2I£ was caught up into the third heaven fourteen years ago. 3Whether my body was there or just my spirit, I don’t know; only God knows. 4But I do know that I£ was caught up into paradise and heard things so astounding that they cannot be told.

And John perhaps?

1Then as I looked, I saw a door standing open in heaven, and the same voice I had heard before spoke to me with the sound of a mighty trumpet blast. The voice said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must happen after these things.” 2And instantly I was in the Spirit,£ and I saw a throne in heaven and someone sitting on it!

They both were called up in Spirit just as when we die our bodies die and our spirit lives. But wait let's go back a long ways before to the Prophet Elijah

2 Kings Ch 2 11As they were walking along and talking, suddenly a chariot of fire appeared, drawn by horses of fire. It drove between them, separating them, and Elijah was carried by a whirlwind into heaven. 12Elisha saw it and cried out, “My father! My father! The chariots and charioteers of Israel!” And as they disappeared from sight, Elisha tore his robe in two.

Enoch perhaps? Genesis ch 5 21When Enoch was 65 years old, his son Methuselah was born. 22After the birth of Methuselah, Enoch lived another 300 years in close fellowship with God, and he had other sons and daughters. 23Enoch lived 365 years in all. 24He enjoyed a close relationship with God throughout his life. Then suddenly, he disappeared because God took him.

Evidence in The Bible doesn't point to purgatory. Obviously Paul and John saw Heaven while they were alive as did Stephen as he died.

My wife many years ago used to be a nurses aid in a nursing home. Usually when one of the residents on her shift was fixing to pass they called on her to sit with them. Some who were conscious and well aware of their surroundings would talk to her as their final breaths were drawn. They would say things like look isn't it wonderful come with me.

One day while at work she got a call to the building her beloved grandmother who raised her was in. The supervisor said get down there fast. My wife {this was before we had met} went in to see her grandmother. She was responsive but weak and knew of my wifes presence. My wife interacted with her. The woman had been a choir director, piano teacher, and voice instructor. In her final minutes her hands were making movements my wife recognized as her method of directing music. Not the arms waving but small hand movement type. This was within a few moments of her passing.

A year and a half later on a day off she too would have her encounter with crossing over and had begun the initial journey. She had suffered an extreme for lack of a better term Spinal Infarction. She was conscious and we were driving police escorted to the nearest ER. She was describing to me what she was seeing as I was driving. I was screaming hang on don't leave me. She was my girlfriend then and this was on a date. We made it to the ER and she lived and is now my wife.

When on the cross Christ said "It is finished" it was completed. ALL Righteousness was fulfilled for you, me, and salvation for many was accomplished. We are made righteous by Him alone and cleansed by Him alone. His Blood, His Grace, and through that our debt paid.

Christ did not tell the thief today after purgatory you will be with me in paradise.

39One of the criminals hanging beside him scoffed, “So you’re the Messiah, are you? Prove it by saving yourself—and us, too, while you’re at it!” 40But the other criminal protested, “Don’t you fear God even when you are dying? 41We deserve to die for our evil deeds, but this man hasn’t done anything wrong.” 42Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your Kingdom.” 43And Jesus replied, “I assure you, today you will be with me in paradise.”

What is our punishment for our sins then? The Bible is quite clear on that.

Romans ch 6 15So since God’s grace has set us free from the law, does this mean we can go on sinning? Of course not! 16Don’t you realize that whatever you choose to obey becomes your master? You can choose sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God and receive his approval. 17Thank God! Once you were slaves of sin, but now you have obeyed with all your heart the new teaching God has given you. 18Now you are free from sin, your old master, and you have become slaves to your new master, righteousness. 19I speak this way, using the illustration of slaves and masters, because it is easy to understand. Before, you let yourselves be slaves of impurity and lawlessness. Now you must choose to be slaves of righteousness so that you will become holy. 20In those days, when you were slaves of sin, you weren’t concerned with doing what was right. 21And what was the result? It was not good, since now you are ashamed of the things you used to do, things that end in eternal doom. 22But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life through Christ Jesus our Lord.

Death of the body is our punishment for our sins on earth for the believers and unbelievers alike. Our bodies have the curse of sin but not our spirit if we accept Christ as Lord and Savior. Thus we are reborn. For those who believe yet shall we live.

The Bible teaches us believers are in heaven even as we are alive today. The Bible teaches us there are ones in hell today.

Luke ch 16 19Jesus said, “There was a certain rich man who was splendidly clothed and who lived each day in luxury. 20At his door lay a diseased beggar named Lazarus. 21As Lazarus lay there longing for scraps from the rich man’s table, the dogs would come and lick his open sores. 22Finally, the beggar died and was carried by the angels to be with Abraham.£ The rich man also died and was buried, 23and his soul went to the place of the dead.£ There, in torment, he saw Lazarus in the far distance with Abraham. 24“The rich man shouted, ‘Father Abraham, have some pity! Send Lazarus over here to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in these flames.’ 25“But Abraham said to him, ‘son, remember that during your lifetime you had everything you wanted, and Lazarus had nothing. So now he is here being comforted, and you are in anguish. 26And besides, there is a great chasm separating us. Anyone who wanted to cross over to you from here is stopped at its edge, and no one there can cross over to us.’ 27“Then the rich man said, ‘Please, Father Abraham, send him to my father’s home. 28For I have five brothers, and I want him to warn them about this place of torment so they won’t have to come here when they die.’ 29“But Abraham said, ‘Moses and the prophets have warned them. Your brothers can read their writings anytime they want to.’ 30“The rich man replied, ‘No, Father Abraham! But if someone is sent to them from the dead, then they will turn from their sins.’ 31“But Abraham said, ‘If they won’t listen to Moses and the prophets, they won’t listen even if someone rises from the dead.’”

49 posted on 06/16/2012 11:11:18 PM PDT by cva66snipe (Two Choices left for U.S. One Nation Under GOD or One Nation Under Judgment? Which one say ye?)
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To: Salvation
It gives comfort to the living - what harm?
What makes a canonized saint any more likely to be in Heaven than any other saved Christian?
Why would God save someone, whom Jesus "never knew" from Hell because the living pray for it? Is God wishy-washy? God has decreed what is and what is to be and Jesus died so the rules would not have to be broken. Is there an amnesty escape clause for those who never allowed the Holy Spirit into their hearts?
What is this concept of Purgatory? Why would it be any different than the first line in the poem as far as accuracy?
50 posted on 06/17/2012 2:42:38 AM PDT by trebb ("If a man will not work, he should not eat" From 2 Thes 3)
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