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The Rapture Part 1 (Dispensational Caucus)
BibleProphecyBlog.com ^ | February 16, 2012 | Dr. Andy Woods

Posted on 06/22/2012 12:53:32 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta

I remain astonished at the number of emails I receive from individuals who do not believe that the rapture is a biblical doctrine. Such people seem to have the idea that the whole rapture concept is manufactured by popular, sensationalistic prophecy teachers in their attempt to sell books and make money. Thus, they contend that this rapture doctrine has no biblical justification whatsoever. In order to demonstrate the rapture is truly a biblical doctrine, I am commencing a series of articles on the "Doctrine of the Rapture of the Church."

This series will have two major parts. First, we will focus on the "what?" question as we ask ourselves, "What is the rapture?" The two major passages we will use to answer this question will be 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-58. Second, we will focus on the "when?" question as we ask ourselves, "When is the rapture?" By "when?" we have no intention of assigning a date for the rapture. Such an effort would be fruitless since the Scripture fails to assign a specific date for this event. Rather, by "when?" we simply will try to answer the question "When will the rapture take place relative to the impending seven-year tribulation period?"

What Is the Rapture? In order to answer this question, ten truths about this important event will be discussed. The first four truths come directly from 1 Thess. 4:13-18. These verses say:

But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.

The Rapture Is an Important Doctrine

First, the rapture is an important doctrine. Many give the impression that the rapture is some kind of secondary doctrine that need not be given too much attention. We are often told that we should focus on the "big ticket" theological items such as the Virgin Birth, the Vicarious Atonement, the Trinity, Salvation by Faith Alone, and the Deity of Christ. Only after these doctrines are mastered should we then consider or contemplate the doctrine of the rapture. Along these same lines, many contend that the rapture is certainly not something that a new believer should give too much time or attention to.

Such thinking was foreign to the mindset of the Apostle Paul. Interestingly, the Thessalonians were new believers (1 Thess. 1:9). In fact, a very short period of time exists between Paul's planting of the Thessalonian church on his second missionary and his writing of the two epistles to them. There were no more than six months to a year between these two events. Thus, the Thessalonian epistles differ from Paul's letter to the Philippians where a little over ten years had elapsed between Paul's planting of the church at Philippi, on his second missionary journey, and when Paul finally wrote to that church during his first Roman imprisonment. The point in all of this is that although the Thessalonians were new believers, Paul never hid the doctrine of the rapture from them. On the contrary, he openly disclosed this teaching to them along with many other doctrines.

In his letter to the Thessalonians, before more fully developing the doctrine of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul briefly mentioned this doctrine in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Paul obviously believed that the rapture is a foundational doctrine because he mentioned it immediately after discussing other basic doctrines such as the Holy Spirit (1:5) and conversion (1:5, 9). He also mentions the rapture doctrine (4:13-18) just after and before discussing other basic Christian truths such as sanctification (4:3, 5:23) and the dimensions of man's nature (5:23). Evidently, in Paul's thinking, the rapture was just as important as these other truths and deserved the same level of treatment and understanding.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
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1 posted on 06/22/2012 12:53:35 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
From the Religion Moderator's homepage:

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not a member of the caucus.

For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not Catholic, do not post to the thread. However, if the poster of the caucus invites you, I will not boot you from the thread.

The “caucus” article and posts must not compare beliefs or speak in behalf of a belief outside the caucus.

There is no tolerance for posters coming onto a caucus thread claiming that they were once baptized into that belief and therefore are still a member of it due to the belief saying they are - even though they are not active in that belief and notoriously dispute that belief on "open" Religion Forum threads. The same holds for those who claim they are members because of their ancestry even though they are not active in that belief and notoriously dispute it on "open" RF threads.

That behavior is finessing the guidelines, it is flame baiting. No dice.

Also, there is little to no tolerance for non-members of a caucus coming onto the caucus thread to challenge whether or not it should be a caucus. Gross disruption usually follows.

If you question whether the article is appropriate for a caucus designation, send me a Freepmail. I'll get to it as soon as I can.

2 posted on 06/22/2012 12:55:31 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: HushTX; righttackle44; patriot preacher; FrdmLvr; caww; bareford101; fishtank; Shelayne; ...

Ping!


3 posted on 06/22/2012 12:58:17 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Amen!


4 posted on 06/22/2012 1:30:27 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Just so I understand, because this is a Dispensational caucus, only pre-tribulationists can comment? Those that believe in a post-tribulation rapture should not comment?


5 posted on 06/22/2012 2:05:33 AM PDT by free_life (If you ask Jesus to forgive you and to save you, He will.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
This says "Dispensationalist" and I am a fundamental nondenominational immersionist and dispensationalist. I am not a Protestant, nor a Roman Catholic, nor Orthodox. Would I need to have a "room pass" to join in the discussion? The topic on this says "general discussion." I'm not sure if that says "no limitations" other than "no flame wars desired here."

If you want to check my bent, you might look at
http://www.happyheralds.org/
for the doctrines I have been discipled in by that author. I expect some of my thoughts might not be in agreement with everyone elses. I'm open to extending my learning in The Lord, being finite in the Presence of the Infinite. Why else have a discussion?

6 posted on 06/22/2012 2:22:31 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
1 Thess. 4:16 says For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

But in 1 Corinthians 15:31, Paul says: I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily."

By this it can be seen that the first taken up in the rapture, those "dead in Christ," means those who have surrendered their lives to Christ, and thereby "died" to those former lives "of the world," in the same way Paul "dies daily" ... "in Christ Jesus our Lord."

After that, 1 Thess. 4:17 says Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Ironically, to Paul, those who are "alive in the world" are not yet "dead to the world in Christ," but nevertheless will be taken up second.

Interesting how to spiritual eyes, the light of the world is darkness - while to worldly eyes, the light of Christ is darkness.

7 posted on 06/22/2012 3:35:43 AM PDT by Talisker (One who commands, must obey.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

bookmark


8 posted on 06/22/2012 3:37:28 AM PDT by Westbrook (Children do not divide your love, they multiply it.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Jesus and Elijah ascended into heaven so why is it such a stretch to believe the rapture will happen?


9 posted on 06/22/2012 3:51:14 AM PDT by TSgt (The only reason I have one in the chamber at all times, is because it is impossible to have two in.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Does the Rapture negate the Cross and Resurrection in any way? I believe the Bible is as clear about the ”catching away” as it is about the Trinity and other things. As I serve God and await his return I would be surprised if the rapture does not happen, but my faith is built on the Christ's death and Resurrection. I think studies on eschatology are interesting but some folks get hostile if you disagree with them. Hopefully this discussion will remain civil, so it will be edifying.
10 posted on 06/22/2012 4:10:46 AM PDT by st.eqed
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Thank you for posting this. Often on FR there are those who will not accept that this is an doctrine the early church believed. Good documentation for its early teaching can be found here: http://www.essentialchristianity.com/pages.asp?pageid=21918


11 posted on 06/22/2012 4:11:39 AM PDT by Library Lady
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To: Library Lady

A doctrine, not an doctrine. Proofread after editing. Sheesh!


12 posted on 06/22/2012 4:13:19 AM PDT by Library Lady
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To: Talisker; GiovannaNicoletta
>>Ironically, to Paul, those who are "alive in the world" are not yet "dead to the world in Christ," but nevertheless will be taken up second.<<

Your contentions don’t make sense. If you claim that “dead in Christ” means those who are still physically alive but have surrendered themselves to Christ and then quote Paul saying “we which are alive” you have to believe that Paul was not one of those who were “dead in Christ”.

13 posted on 06/22/2012 4:28:14 AM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: TSgt

Enoch was taken also.


14 posted on 06/22/2012 4:44:58 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Ping.


15 posted on 06/22/2012 5:05:16 AM PDT by Mrs.Z
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
I remain astonished at the number of emails I receive from individuals who do not believe that the rapture is a biblical doctrine.

Please count me among those who do not believe your assessment of the scriptures is correct.

Those times have come and gone. The scriptures made Christians of that time aware of the signs so they would know when to get out of Dodge.

The scriptures do not support the notion of what is coming; the scriptures support the notion of what happened.

I trust this information will aid you in overcoming your astonishment.

16 posted on 06/22/2012 6:24:03 AM PDT by MosesKnows (Love many, Trust few, and always paddle your own canoe)
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To: free_life

Are you a dispensationalist?


17 posted on 06/22/2012 4:54:48 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: imardmd1
Dispensational caucus threads are for Bible-believing Christians who believe the Scriptures are inspired by the Holy Spirit, are absolute truth and inerrant, and are not to be allegorized, spiritualized, changed in any way whatsoever, or any part of the Scriptures, including the doctrine of the Rapture, denied.

Those who meet that criteria are welcome to join in the "general discussion" within the Dispensational caucus thread. We are not interested in arguments, denial of Scripture, false doctrines that cannot be validated by Scripture, and ridicule of those who believe that the Bible should be taken as God wrote it, not as each individual has adjusted to fit his or her false, un-Biblical doctrines.

If you can meet those requirements, you are welcome to join. Also, dispensationalists hold to a pre-Tribulation Rapture and are pre-millennial.

18 posted on 06/22/2012 5:00:39 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: st.eqed
How would the Rapture negate the cross and resurrection? The Rapture is simply Jesus Christ taking His church, aka His bride, to a place of safety before He judges this fallen, Christ-rejecting world. The only reason there can be a Rapture is because of the cross and resurrection.

Anyone who truly knows Christ as Savior has their faith built on His death and resurrection, but we also have the "blessed hope", as He described the harpazo, or catching away, of His church. The doctrine of the Rapture is in the same book as the gospel, and was written by the same God. It is just as much factual as Jesus' death on the cross, and will happen just as sure as Jesus' death on the cross happened.

As for people getting hostile over disagreements, I really haven't seen that. I see Bible-believing Christians get passionate about defending the Scriptures, and therefore Jesus Christ, from unbelievers who attempt to deny Scriptures and, by doing so, deny Christ. It's about God's Holy Word, and whether or not it is absolute, inerrant truth.

Christians get "hostile" and are supposed to get "hostile" when their Savior is under attack from those who will deny Him by denying His Word. It's not about disagreement - it's about defending the One Who paid an incalculable price to rescue us from the consequences of our rebellion against Him and Who gave us the opportunity to be reconciled to Him and to be forgiven and to have the gift of eternal life.

It's not about simple "disagreement" at all.

19 posted on 06/22/2012 5:18:22 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: MosesKnows; free_life
This Religion Forum thread is labeled "Dispensational Caucus" meaning if you do not currently, actively believe in dispensationalism then do not post on this thread.

Dispensationalism is premillennialism and usually includes the belief in a pre-tribulation rapture of Christians.

20 posted on 06/22/2012 7:52:32 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
If you can meet those requirements, you are welcome to join. Also, dispensationalists hold to a pre-Tribulation Rapture and are pre-millennial.

Thinking it's right to introduce myself to you-all with a brief biosketch, so as to avoid surprises:

o A dirty, rotten, heavy-drinking, parent-shaming, wife-neglecting, irreligious sinner saved by a very gracious God through my last hope of trusting in the Person, Work, Faith, and shed incorruptible Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ who had alrady borne my sins in His Body on that stake -- May 21, 1971 at the age of 34.
o Brought into fellowship and in-doctrination with a very faithful local assembly of brethren (Plymouth-type) well-versed in prophecy and expecting the Lord's return imminently.
o Several years of attendance with Biblical independent, fundamental, immersionist, pre-trib pre-millennial rapturist NT fellowships in various employment locations.
o Life Member of the Dean Burgon Society -- TR/MT texts inspired, AV a faithful translation
o Further discipling under Dr. Fred Wittman, author of "A Precise Translation" (NT companion to AV), since about 1992; himself of brethren roots.
o Have myself been a discipler for many years, always seeking to make another disciple.
o I'm tolerant of the Pierpont & Robinson Majority extform of the NT; but reject the WH-based Critical Text as Divine, together with its derived versions as unreliable (especially dynamic equivalence translated)
o I'm looking for the upper-taker at any moment, and trying to be ready for His use now.

Thanks for the summary -- that pretty much describes my stance on these issues. I have a real name, if you wish to know. My handle here is like a vanity license plate --- I'm a redeemed one = imardmd1
My life verse: "Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the Enemy." Ps. 107:2

21 posted on 06/22/2012 10:05:31 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
We are not interested in arguments, denial of Scripture, false doctrines that cannot be validated by Scripture

False doctrines cannot be validated by Scripture, however many allegories can be validated by scripture.
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
God’s creation is how we understand invisible (spiritual) things. Does that mean that creation is an allegory? It is certainly worth a look. If God intended his work to teach us about himself, we miss out on a bounty of blessings if we turn away.

Old Testament Shadows

Scripture is replete with symbols all perfectly designed to fit where God uses them. We have an adversary who would pervert everything that God does. Do not throw out all these analogies but seek to interpret them rightly.
22 posted on 06/22/2012 11:08:26 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
This is an excerpt from a very long booklet, but well worth your time, if you really want to know.source
23 posted on 06/22/2012 11:51:23 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: imardmd1

That’s very interesting. But how can you not be Protestant if not Catholic? And in what way are you not orthodox? Maybe I don’t understand the way you mean it. I looked at the website, and see no immediate problems, such as a denial of Christ’s divinity or of His work on the cross and Resurrection. I will continue reading.

I for one am not sure about a pretribulation rapture, and I find that much of what is predicted as future events were actually already fulfilled. For example, I hold that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were very much fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70ad.


24 posted on 06/23/2012 12:23:53 AM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: Seven_0
God has allegorized some of the Book that He wrote and He always does it for a specific reason and there is always an explanation for the allegory and what the Holy Spirit means by the allegory.

Man, on the other hand, by the fact of his created, not divine status and his fallen condition, among myriad other reasons, is not only not qualified to take it upon himself to change the meaning of what God wrote by arbitrarily allegorizing and spiritualizing the Word of God, but nowhere has God authorized man to change the meaning of what He wrote by arbitrarily allegorizing and spiritualizing the Word of God.

God can use allegory in the Scripture for His own purposes. Fallen man, having a sin nature, a blindness of the things of God and, absent being born again, a position of enmity with God, is not on the level of God, does not have the omniscient and omnipresent knowledge of God, and is completely incompetent in understanding the Word of God, and is never told by God or given permission by God to arrogantly change the Word of God by allegorizing it.

Man is not God and does not have the qualifications nor the authority to change one word of Scripture.

Simple as that.

25 posted on 06/23/2012 12:52:04 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Yosemitest
The only problem with that is that it has absolutely zero Scriptural support.

Christians suffer trials and tribulations during this present age because we live in a fallen, evil world of which Satan is god. There is a difference between Satan's wrath and God's wrath and God never promises to always protect Christians from the realities and consequences of living in such a world. The specific, seven year period known as the "Tribulation" is a time of God's, not Satan's and fallen men's, wrath, and Jesus Christ promises to take those who know Him as Savior out of the time of judgment that He will bring on this world for those who have chosen to reject Him.

For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. (1 Thessalonians 5:9,10)

Present Tribulation vs. Future Tribulation

26 posted on 06/23/2012 1:01:01 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
So I guess you don't believe the Bible and ALL THOSE REFERENCES LISTED in the excerpt?

Have you not read
Go your own way, and reconsider your ways.
27 posted on 06/23/2012 1:44:15 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: Yosemitest

This thread is for dispensationalists.

Regarding the post attempting to discount the rapture as a myth, the argument presented contains compounded errors in understanding the timelines provided in Scripture.

It is truly consistent that the 2nd Coming occurs after the Rapture, but this doesn’t necessitate the return of the saints occurs prior to the Tribulation.

Most likely the consistent timeline allows for the Church to be prepared for the Wedding Feast in Heaven concurrent with the Tribulation.

At the close of the Church Age, we simply observe in God’s Prophetic timeline that at some point in the future the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit in each member of the Body of Christ will change by His Will. His work in us at that time will have been completed.

We will continue to live in fellowship with Him as His Bride, but God the Holy Spirit’s indwelling will shift to the Jew during the Millennium, as opposed to the Gentile.

The reading also suggests a mistaken understanding of martyrdom, focusing upon suffering instead upon a perseverant witness of Christ.


28 posted on 06/23/2012 2:17:54 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: Yosemitest
Is the following true or false:

"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).

"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)

Are those passages true or false?

29 posted on 06/23/2012 3:50:02 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: Cvengr
This thread is for dispensationalists.

Thank you. The "dispensational caucus" thread is, I think, the only one that is such a threat that the FR rules on caucuses consistently get violated when one is posted.

attempting to discount the rapture as a myth

I don't know why, but it never fails to astound me how easily and effortlessly human beings will just state without blinking an eyelash that God lies.

If I live to be three hundred years old I will never understand that.

30 posted on 06/23/2012 3:56:06 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Yes, they are true.
In 1 Thess. 1:10 where you quoted "who delivers us from the wrath to come",
Did Jesus advocate the "rapturing" of His followers out of the world to protect them? John 17:15.

In Revelation 3:10, where you reference "I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world",
where does the Bible tell us that "the place of safety" is, where will it be- in heaven or on earth? Rev 12:14-16.
However, will a "remnant" of God's Church be lukewarm spiritually, and not be accounted worthy to escape? Rev 12:17; Rev. 3:14-19.
Will God rebuke and chasten them, allowing them to suffer the fiery trials of the wrath of Satan to wake them up spiritually?Rev 3:18-19, Rev 12:12-17.

Will God protect His faithful servants - including those who turn to Him during this, yet future, time of world turmoil? Rev. 7:2-3.

Where did these servants of God come from?
Did these people repent of their sins sometime during or at the end of the Great Tribulation? Rev. 7, Verse 14.
Notice the "Tribe of Dan" is not included in the 144,000 that were "Sealed".

Further more, if you believe in the theory of a "Rapture" then what point is there in the resurrection?

So ...Will you be there?

The way to make sure you will be taken to this "place" of protection ... has been made clear in the Bible!
31 posted on 06/23/2012 6:48:35 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: Yosemitest
This is an excerpt from a very long booklet, but well worth your time, if you really want to know.

By accepting the underlying methods of spinning out a false tale, as in this excerpt's misuse of the Holy Scripture, its thought process falls into the same line as that of the unregenerate Patristics, like Clement and Origen. They led a great many (not all) seekers away from the core common-sense interpretation which Christ and His Apostles modeled, into a methodology based on nonsensical explanations that produced a religion of their liking. The long excerpt you posted here rests on a laundry-list of assumptions not only logically unsupportable, but directly contradicted by other Scripture.

Allegorizing Scripture, when a literal sense and application is demanded by the context, immediately leads to conflict of opinion, argumentation and profitless waste of time and emotion. That seems to be why this caucus prefers that one sticks to the theology framework stipulated. In this case your excerpt is distracting, though readily disproved.

Here's a suggestion: If you wish to know how the theme of the literal snatching away of the souls of Christ's believer-disciples fits in a dispensational framework of God's progressive revelation, follow along and ask. You may not believe in the scheme, but take your Bible and prove it false on our own, if you can.

But let me also suggest that you start to learn a little bit about "hermeneutics"--how to interpret the Bible. A good source is:

Bible 405: HERMENEUTICS - THE STUDY OF THE INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURES

This is a downloadable course outline in PDF form, from a reputable theological seminary named after an outstanding Bible interpreter. Going through this will immeasurably improve your responses in this discussion. (Hint: a section with highlights in the history of hermeneutics begins on page 23.)

With a grip on this, you probably won't want to be known as posting excerpts of the type and quality as you have here.

With sincere respect --

32 posted on 06/23/2012 7:35:06 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: Yosemitest
Give me the Scripture where Jesus tells us that His bride, the church, will go through the Tribulation.

You haven't so far. Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something.

Oh and can you also give me the Scripture where God authorizes man to determined that He lied in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?

All this Scripture that you will provide will be very helpful Thanks.

33 posted on 06/23/2012 8:39:45 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: imardmd1

Very well said. Thank you imardmd1!


34 posted on 06/23/2012 8:41:14 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: imardmd1
You can think what you like, and trying to put it into a respectful tone is appreciated.
However, I'm not young, and I've been through it before.
If you can't back it up with the Bible, it's not worth my time.
I'm just trying to correct Satan's myths, and the "Rapture" will lead many to "a falling away".

You really should read up on the Doctrinal history of "The Rapture".
Many people will see event that are prophesised in the Bible, and realize that all their friends, the ones that were sure that they would be "Raptured Away", are sill around and suffering with them here on earth.
Then they will think that this has all been a lie, and they will lose faith in religion, and "fall away".

One of the older versions of the Britannica Encyclopedia had a great article on it, but I can't seem to locate it on the internet.

I cannot "call" you to God. Only the Father can do that.

Believe what you want, but most of all, BELIEVE THE BIBLE!
35 posted on 06/23/2012 9:19:55 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: Yosemitest
BELIEVE THE BIBLE!

Well, yeah we are.

When Jesus promises in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to take His church off the scene before He sends judgment, and no one can find any Scripture to contradict that, and then Jesus tells us this:

Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)

where He is reiterating His promise to "come again", and get His bride and take us to where He is, then where is He?

Where is Jesus located right now?

36 posted on 06/23/2012 9:25:14 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
God has allegorized some of the Book that He wrote and He always does it for a specific reason and there is always an explanation for the allegory and what the Holy Spirit means by the allegory

Christ is the Lamb of God, an analogy that a Shepard would have a greater understanding of than the average person because of his knowledge of sheep. Part of our understanding of scripture is in the symbol itself. It is not necessary that all symbols be explained in scripture, where is the explanation for the treasure and the pearl in Matthew 13? Only the first two parables in that chapter are explained.

As we increase our knowledge of God’s work, we also increase our understanding of God’s word, but Christ is the word of God, thus we have an allegory that encompasses all of scripture.

God can use allegory in the Scripture for His own purposes. Fallen man, having a sin nature, a blindness of the things of God and, absent being born again, a position of enmity with God, is not on the level of God, does not have the omniscient and omnipresent knowledge of God, and is completely incompetent in understanding the Word of God, and is never told by God or given permission by God to arrogantly change the Word of God by allegorizing it

If we say that Joseph, son of Jacob is a type of Christ, is that allegorizing scripture? Where are we given permission to do this? How does this change Scripture?
37 posted on 06/23/2012 9:51:12 AM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
If we say that Joseph, son of Jacob is a type of Christ, is that allegorizing scripture? Where are we given permission to do this? How does this change Scripture?

Where does God say that Joseph is a type of Christ?

38 posted on 06/23/2012 9:55:53 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: RaisingCain
That’s very interesting. But how can you not be Protestant if not Catholic? And in what way are you not orthodox?

What I said is that, although raised as a "preacher's kid" in the Methodist denomination, I no longer subscribe to that type of ecclesiastic structure. "Catholic" means "universal," and is based on an interpretation that The Spirit baptizes believers into a mystical, invisible body of Christ, a universal, invisible Church.

This "solution" was a necessity adopted by Augustine to circumvent the fact that his visible church was an impure one; some of whose members were regenerated believer-disciples; some were unregenerate "believers;" and a third class of some who were baptized but too ignorant or non-compliant as yet to be called believers. Also, a dominion of obedience to government outside the local churches (a contra-NT concept) forced this subservience to this invisible Church.

I do not believe in this doctrine, so I am not a Catholic.

What I believe is essentially the Biblical view of Augustine's critics, the Donatists, to whom a true church was/is the assembly of immersed regenerated believer-disciples in a particular locale, maintaining their purity through strong preaching, and church discipling, and stabilized by personal discipling into spiritual maturity. That is certainly orthodox back to the Apostolic age; but it is not Greek or Russian or British or some other "Orthodox" (capital "O"), which are not orthodox at all.

So I am orthodox in belief, but not "Orthodox" in denomination.

Protestants are simply offshoots of Romanism reformed; and hence are illegitimate children who will be gathered back in the end-time ecumenism, after they admit their rebellion. That is now occurring.

I am no longer Protestant, since I was saved.

You will find that the persecuted churches and their preserved Scripture have always remained from the beginning, wherever a hermeneutic of literal grammatical interpretation of the original inscripturated languages has resurfaced. That would include Donatists, Paulicians, Montenses, Waldensians, Albigenses, "Plymouth" brethren, Independent Baptists, etc. which have witnessed in every age against corruption, innovation, Jewish rites, and clerical rule.

This is what I identify with.

==============

I for one am not sure about a pretribulation rapture, and I find that much of what is predicted as future events were actually already fulfilled. For example, I hold that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were very much fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70ad.

Well, that will not survive the fact that The God caused the Jews to be dispersed, and His prophecy for their regathering in Eretz Israel, at the end of the times of the Gentiles, has only recently occurred.

The seven years of the Tribulation (3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation) are the last 0f the 70 shabats (heptads). You need to go over Daniel 9:24-27 very carefully. Daniel's 70 shabats of years were not literally, actually fulfilled as you claim. It is thought that there has been a hiatus from the 69th week, until recently; for Tisha b'Av began "the times of the Gentiles" on Israel and Jerusalem, until now (Luke 21:20-24).

This generation is still here, and The Prophet said unto his Own, "This generation shall not pass away, til all be fulfilled." That is, "This generation" referred to is the one in whose time dominance of Jerusalem by the Gentiles will be over.

You will want to note that the prophetic dispensationalism is not a new thing, although a resurgence of a literal-historical-grammatical hermeneutic of Christ and His Apostle-disciplers is the mother of sects such as the Darbyites, Independent Baptists, and self-governed Bible Fellowships where Bible teaching rather than "social gospel" activism is the dominant feature.

39 posted on 06/23/2012 10:23:19 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: imardmd1

Awesome post, imardmd1!


40 posted on 06/23/2012 10:29:21 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: imardmd1
By accepting the underlying methods of spinning out a false tale, as in this excerpt's misuse of the Holy Scripture, its thought process falls into the same line as that of the unregenerate Patristics, like Clement and Origen.

WELL SAID!

They led a great many (not all) seekers away from the core common-sense interpretation which Christ and His Apostles modeled, into a methodology based on nonsensical explanations that produced a religion of their liking.

Exactly right.

It's often said that premillenialism is a recent phenomenon, but it only appears that way to those that haven't had the opportunity to study our early Christian history. Amillenialism and allegorical interpretation became dominant with the rise of a hierarchy and the development of the church-state model. It has only been after the separation of the church and state that we've seen a large number of Christians return to our roots ie., literal interpretation and premillenialism.

If we look at Christians who believe in a pre-trib, or mid-trib rapture and a physical millennial reign of Jesus Christ we see the fastest growing congregations that are also the most evangelical.

41 posted on 06/23/2012 11:11:57 AM PDT by wmfights
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To: Yosemitest
However, I'm not young, and I've been through it before. If you can't back it up with the Bible, it's not worth my time.

Neither am I, and so have I, forty years ago. I can back it up with the Bible, and already have. So has GiovannaNicoletta, so sufficiently, simple, and precise that I cannot improve on it.

You really should read up on the Doctrinal history of "The Rapture".

I do not find that this reference adds much to my previous understanding of the clarity of the Scriptures in this matter, but it is a useful summary.

However, you might want to take a look at a rather more lengthy treaty by my discipler, the scholar/missionary/author/broadcaster Dr. Fred Wittman, given here:

THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN AND THE KINGDOM OF THE GOD

This will treat the rapture in a broader panorama of the progress of The God's plan, so that you have as much context that will be hard to wiggle out of. With it is a pictorial diagram of what happens before and after, as well as what happens to those who do not participate in that rapture event:

Progress of events, including the Rapture

Here is a corollary table comparing the features of Christendom vs. the Kingdom of The God:

Comparison of The Kingdom of Heaven and The Kingdom of The God

That ought to take up at least a part of one's afternoon. Cheers!

42 posted on 06/23/2012 12:30:51 PM PDT by imardmd1 ("... neither wilt Thou suffer Thine Holy One to see corruption." Ps. 16:10b)
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To: imardmd1
Sorry -- this sentence needs correction:

>> What I believe is essentially the Biblical view of Augustine's
>> critics, the Donatists, to whom a true church was/is the assembly
>> of immersed regenerated believer-disciples in a particular
>> locale, maintaining their purity through strong preaching, and
>>church discipling,
>> and stabilized by personal discipling into spiritual maturity.

This should have read "church discipline,"

mea culpa --

43 posted on 06/23/2012 12:42:05 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Where does God say that Joseph is a type of Christ?

Scripture does not say that Joseph is a type of Christ, at least not directly. However Adam is a type of Christ, confirmed in Romans 5:14. Some of the similarities and differences of the analogy are given Romans 5 but when we look at other events recorded in Adam’s life we can see Christ. A few examples are in order here: Adam was not deceived; he chose to die as Christ chose to die. Adam loved Eve as Christ loved the Church.

These types are all through scripture. Perhaps a verse that gives us permission to look for them is here:
John 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
I mention Joseph because he is a neat mix of history with prophecy. Do you see Christ? Joseph was beloved of his father, hated by his brothers. In a figure he was killed, then sold as a slave, taken to Egypt, falsely accused and raised to second in command by the king and all power in Egypt was given to him. Some things are still prophecy. Christ has not yet revealed himself to his brothers nor taken a gentile bride. All in his time.

I understand your aversion to allegorizing scripture; amillennialism is a perversion of this method and is enough the turn people against it.
44 posted on 06/23/2012 2:33:44 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: Seven_0
As long as we all know that considering Joseph to be a "type" of Christ can find no validation in Scripture and so therefore is man's opinion, then it is what it is. It's not Scriptural and is not absolute truth and inerrant. God used Joseph for the preservation of His chosen people, but Joseph was still a fallen, sinful man and cannot be compared to Christ.

Adam's death was because of sin and cannot in any way be equated or compared with Christ's death on the cross so he is not a "type" of Christ.

The problem arises when people come up with these notions that have nothing to do with what God has written and begin to believe that their own ideas are on an equal level with the Holy Spirit-inspired Bible.

Opinions are opinions and everyone has them, but as long as they cannot be validated by the Word of God, then they are not to be seriously considered as anything other than a product of someone's imagination.

45 posted on 06/23/2012 2:47:21 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Two personal side notes: Now back to your questions.
First, this is spiritual meat, not milk, I'm giving you.
Have you not read ... ?
Now to your question
Now to your second question: He Lied?
What are you talking about? Are you implying that Heaven will NOT be ON EARTH?
Let's look at this carefully!
Let's read verse 17 of 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4 again.
Are you implying that we will NOT meet the Lord?
Are you implying that the Lord will NOT be in the air?
Are you implying that the Lord will REMAIN in the air for ever?
Are you implying that we will NOT be with the Lord for ever?

First let's read more about Jesus's second coming.
Read this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
Read where he will set his feet upon his return.
Read in Revelations 19 of the Return of our Lord.
So let us examine the dead.

I hope you appreciate the hours of labor that went into this post.
46 posted on 06/23/2012 3:30:50 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple, fight or die!)
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To: Yosemitest
Um, yeah.

The Bible tells us that there will be multitudes who were not saved during the current church age who will be saved during the Tribulation. Revelation 7:4 talks about the 144,000 Jewish believers who will go throughout the world, preaching the gospel and bringing people to Christ. Revelation 6:9-11 talks about those who refuse to take the mark of the Beast, are beheaded, and are in Heaven:

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?" 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed..

These are Tribulation saints, not church-age saints. They were left behind at the Rapture because they did not know Christ at that time, and they become saved during the Tribulation. The church, as we know from 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, is not present on earth during the Tribulation so the "saints" as they are spoken of in the book of Revelation and anywhere else in Scripture that speaks of the Tribulation period does not refer to those who know Christ presently.

So Jesus tells His bride, His church, that they are not appointed to wrath, and that He will take His bride out, not through the wrath and Tribulation that will come on the earth, and now we have Jesus telling His church that He will come and get us and take us to where He is.

Here is Jesus' direct quote of the promise to come and get His church:

“If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also. 4“And you know the way where I am going. (John 14:3)

So Jesus tells His bride, His church that He will come and get them and take them to where He is.

Where is Jesus located?

47 posted on 06/23/2012 3:49:46 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: imardmd1

You are obviously very learned on these subjects, just from the words you are using. What would you suggest I do to better study end times prophecy? The closest I have for a study guide is Matthew Henry’s commentaries, and he was quite convinced that Daniel’s 70 weeks were resolved some time ago. But my total understanding of end times Biblical prophecy is pitiful.


48 posted on 06/23/2012 4:14:35 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
As long as we all know that considering Joseph to be a "type" of Christ can find no validation in Scripture and so therefore is man's opinion

Perhaps the similar things that happened to Joseph and Christ were a coincidence or perhaps they are profitable for doctrine. Can we determine? Is it not at least a prophecy of Christ?

but Joseph was still a fallen, sinful man and cannot be compared to Christ.

If God declared Joseph to be righteous by faith, could he then use him as a type of Christ?

Adam's death was because of sin and cannot in any way be equated or compared with Christ's death on the cross so he is not a "type" of Christ.

Christ’s death was also because of sin; they at least had that in common.


49 posted on 06/23/2012 4:53:17 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: RaisingCain
Just looking over my bookshelf, I would have a harder time finding a better treatment in one book than "Maranatha -- Our Lord Come!" by Renald Showers. Publisher in 1995 was The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., P. O. Box 908, Bellmawr, New Jersey 08099.

Dr, Showers' credentials are: Philadelphia College of the Bible diploma; Wheaton, B. A.; Dallas Theol., Th. M. (church history); and Grace Theological, Th. D. (Theology). At the time of publication, was on staff of FOIGM.

This volume is available from Amazon at this link:

http://www.amazon.com/Maranatha-Our-Lord-Come-Definitive/dp/0915540223

Amazon's price is $9.56 USD plus shipping; but on that page people are offering it for $4.95 up. That's pretty reasonable, and you'll get it very quickly.

But let me ask you: Are you not being personally discipled under a spiritually mature trained discipler, who himself was discipled into maturity--not through a Bible Institute--but as the Apostles were discipled, and who discipled their successors? If not, you might consider that a fruitful and challenging path forward, one that The God expects from His children. (Heb. 5:12-6:3)

Studying prophecy is a deep subject, and probably not one you want to tackle alone. The Holy Ghost will teach you from His Word, but an experienced and faithful teacher can put you on the right track, and help you be accountable for your progress. And your growth should be across the range of in-doctrination, not just on prophecy.

If you have further questions requiring a less public communication, that is available as a reply option.

50 posted on 06/23/2012 7:41:21 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Come and hear, all ye that fear God, and I will declare what He has done for my soul.)
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