Posted on 06/22/2012 12:53:32 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
I remain astonished at the number of emails I receive from individuals who do not believe that the rapture is a biblical doctrine. Such people seem to have the idea that the whole rapture concept is manufactured by popular, sensationalistic prophecy teachers in their attempt to sell books and make money. Thus, they contend that this rapture doctrine has no biblical justification whatsoever. In order to demonstrate the rapture is truly a biblical doctrine, I am commencing a series of articles on the "Doctrine of the Rapture of the Church."
This series will have two major parts. First, we will focus on the "what?" question as we ask ourselves, "What is the rapture?" The two major passages we will use to answer this question will be 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and 1 Corinthians 15:50-58. Second, we will focus on the "when?" question as we ask ourselves, "When is the rapture?" By "when?" we have no intention of assigning a date for the rapture. Such an effort would be fruitless since the Scripture fails to assign a specific date for this event. Rather, by "when?" we simply will try to answer the question "When will the rapture take place relative to the impending seven-year tribulation period?"
What Is the Rapture? In order to answer this question, ten truths about this important event will be discussed. The first four truths come directly from 1 Thess. 4:13-18. These verses say:
But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words.
The Rapture Is an Important Doctrine
First, the rapture is an important doctrine. Many give the impression that the rapture is some kind of secondary doctrine that need not be given too much attention. We are often told that we should focus on the "big ticket" theological items such as the Virgin Birth, the Vicarious Atonement, the Trinity, Salvation by Faith Alone, and the Deity of Christ. Only after these doctrines are mastered should we then consider or contemplate the doctrine of the rapture. Along these same lines, many contend that the rapture is certainly not something that a new believer should give too much time or attention to.
Such thinking was foreign to the mindset of the Apostle Paul. Interestingly, the Thessalonians were new believers (1 Thess. 1:9). In fact, a very short period of time exists between Paul's planting of the Thessalonian church on his second missionary and his writing of the two epistles to them. There were no more than six months to a year between these two events. Thus, the Thessalonian epistles differ from Paul's letter to the Philippians where a little over ten years had elapsed between Paul's planting of the church at Philippi, on his second missionary journey, and when Paul finally wrote to that church during his first Roman imprisonment. The point in all of this is that although the Thessalonians were new believers, Paul never hid the doctrine of the rapture from them. On the contrary, he openly disclosed this teaching to them along with many other doctrines.
In his letter to the Thessalonians, before more fully developing the doctrine of the rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul briefly mentioned this doctrine in 1 Thessalonians 1:10. Paul obviously believed that the rapture is a foundational doctrine because he mentioned it immediately after discussing other basic doctrines such as the Holy Spirit (1:5) and conversion (1:5, 9). He also mentions the rapture doctrine (4:13-18) just after and before discussing other basic Christian truths such as sanctification (4:3, 5:23) and the dimensions of man's nature (5:23). Evidently, in Paul's thinking, the rapture was just as important as these other truths and deserved the same level of treatment and understanding.
Thinking it's right to introduce myself to you-all with a brief biosketch, so as to avoid surprises:
o A dirty, rotten, heavy-drinking, parent-shaming, wife-neglecting, irreligious sinner saved by a very gracious God through my last hope of trusting in the Person, Work, Faith, and shed incorruptible Blood of His Son, Jesus Christ who had alrady borne my sins in His Body on that stake -- May 21, 1971 at the age of 34.
o Brought into fellowship and in-doctrination with a very faithful local assembly of brethren (Plymouth-type) well-versed in prophecy and expecting the Lord's return imminently.
o Several years of attendance with Biblical independent, fundamental, immersionist, pre-trib pre-millennial rapturist NT fellowships in various employment locations.
o Life Member of the Dean Burgon Society -- TR/MT texts inspired, AV a faithful translation
o Further discipling under Dr. Fred Wittman, author of "A Precise Translation" (NT companion to AV), since about 1992; himself of brethren roots.
o Have myself been a discipler for many years, always seeking to make another disciple.
o I'm tolerant of the Pierpont & Robinson Majority extform of the NT; but reject the WH-based Critical Text as Divine, together with its derived versions as unreliable (especially dynamic equivalence translated)
o I'm looking for the upper-taker at any moment, and trying to be ready for His use now.
Thanks for the summary -- that pretty much describes my stance on these issues. I have a real name, if you wish to know. My handle here is like a vanity license plate --- I'm a redeemed one = imardmd1
My life verse: "Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the Enemy." Ps. 107:2
Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:God’s creation is how we understand invisible (spiritual) things. Does that mean that creation is an allegory? It is certainly worth a look. If God intended his work to teach us about himself, we miss out on a bounty of blessings if we turn away.
"I
I'm sure the driver of the car was proudly, if not a little self-righteously, displaying her belief that, should Christ suddenly "rapture her away," she would instantly soar through the roof of the car, whisk away into the clouds (unless it happened to be a clear day) to heaven, leaving her still-running car there at the intersection to create a massive traffic jam.
Is this true? Is Christ coming to secretly "snatch up" His saints before the Great Tribulation of Bible prophecy?
What Difference Does it All Make?
Why should someone who believes in the "rapture" get ANGRY when shown, from the Bible, that the so-called "secret rapture" is a myth?
If Christ is going to redeem the saved; if Christ is coming to catch up His people, including the dead in Christ, and descend with them to the mount of Olives in the same day, then His true followers will be SAVED, will they not?
They will be born of God by a resurrection, or an instantaneous change, will they not? (1 Corinthians 15:50-52).
They will then come down from the clouds, perhaps anywhere from 10 to 40,000 feet above the earth, in this earth's atmosphere, and will be with Christ as He begins to rule this earth with a rod of iron.
What is so wrong with these wondrous promises of your Bible that "pretribulationists" and "secret rapturists" seem to violently object?
It is simply this: Somehow, they cannot bring themselves to believe the "saved" could suffer any harm! For some reason, an insidious false assumption has crept into the minds of millions of people, an assumption which says God would not think of allowing His saints to come to any physical harm! No, any such terrible event is reserved only for the wicked, so they think! What they do not realize is that such a false assumption makes them out to be better than Christ!
Did not Christ say, "If they have persecuted me, they will persecute you also"? Did He not say, "In this world ye shall tribulation"? Did He not say, "The time will come when they that killeth you will think they do God a service"?
Another equation in this false assumption is that martyrdom is reserved for the spiritually weak!
Those who cling to the false notion of "church eras" point out how God will allegedly throw those in the so-called "Laodicean attitude" of lukewarmness into the Great Tribulation, while spiriting away into a desert wilderness the "good" people in the "Philadelphian era."
According to this scenario, those closest to God; those on fire with zeal; those with the most faith, the most works, the most spiritual character, will be PROTECTED from the Tribulation, miraculously "taken to a place of safety."
But those who are less faithful, not so close to God; those without zeal; those who are lukewarm, who have weak spiritual character, will be chosen as God's martyrs!
As they suffer, they will realize how terribly weak, and lukewarm they have been, as the theory goes, and, under torture and eventual death, they will repent!
But WHO did God choose as His martyrs?
Look at the list: Jesus Christ, Peter, James, Paul, Stephen, Antipas, dozens of others in the first century. Read the eleventh chapter of Hebrews, how God's greatest prophets were oftentimes martyred for their faith.
John saw a vision of the witness of two prophets, two human beings who will personally testify against the Beast and the False Prophet! Their Prophecy is to take place during the Tribulation!
"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
"These are the two olive trees [mentioned in symbol in Zechariah 4:3], and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
"And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
"These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
"And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit [the abyss—a spiritual metaphor] shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
"And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
"And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwell on the earth.
"And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
"And they heard a great voice out from heaven saying unto them, ‘Come up hither,’ And they ascended to heaven [this earth's atmosphere, where vapors form clouds—not the "third heaven" of God's throne] in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
"And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted: and gave glory to the God of heaven" (Revelation 11:2-13).
These two men are in Jerusalem all during the Tribulation and the Day Of the Lord. Their three and one-half year's testimony coincides exactly with the "time of Jacob's trouble," of three and one-half years; with the "times of the Gentiles" of three and one-half years; with the "treading down of Jerusalem" of three and one-half years!
God gives them power far above that of Moses or Elijah. The plagues they call down upon sinning mankind, upon the Beast and False Prophet, are global in nature, not national, or local, as in the former cases.
These two prophets, the "two witnesses" of the future, are human beings, converted, Spirit-led SAINTS! They are Christ's servants, conducting the last-minute, FINAL phase of God's work on this earth of PERSONALLY witnessing to the Beast and False Prophet in the name of Christ!
What happens to them?
They are martyred!
When the Beast is finally able to "make war" against them, overcome them, and kill them, the Bible does not tell us specifically how they die. You can be sure it will not be pleasant! Yet, after lying dead in the street for three and one-half days, they are obviously resurrected, and will be given eternal life! Are these two great prophets "Laodicean"?
Are they "left behind" when the saints are "raptured," or the so-called "Philadelphia era" goes to a "place of safety"?
Do they suffer a horrible death because they are spiritually inferior?
No, God does not choose the spiritually WEAK, the lukewarm, to be His martyrs!
Instead, He chooses those who are so close to God that they literally count all things in this life "as dung" (Philippians 3:8) in comparison with the Kingdom of God, and eternal life!
"Rapturists," like "survivalists" and "escapists," have their minds on the preservation of this physical life!
Jesus Christ tells them that those who seek to save their lives in this world, who have their minds on physical things, are likely to lose out on salvation!
No, God is NOT going to "rapture" away His saints secretly. The lady with the bumper sticker will not suddenly disappear through her roof, after all!
Let us not trust in false hopes, but in Jesus Christ of Nazareth, and God the Father, Who loves us, and Who promises eternal life with Him in His Kingdom to all those who "endure unto the end," whether that means the end of our own physical lives or the end of the Tribulation and the Day of the Lord!
That’s very interesting. But how can you not be Protestant if not Catholic? And in what way are you not orthodox? Maybe I don’t understand the way you mean it. I looked at the website, and see no immediate problems, such as a denial of Christ’s divinity or of His work on the cross and Resurrection. I will continue reading.
I for one am not sure about a pretribulation rapture, and I find that much of what is predicted as future events were actually already fulfilled. For example, I hold that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were very much fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70ad.
Man, on the other hand, by the fact of his created, not divine status and his fallen condition, among myriad other reasons, is not only not qualified to take it upon himself to change the meaning of what God wrote by arbitrarily allegorizing and spiritualizing the Word of God, but nowhere has God authorized man to change the meaning of what He wrote by arbitrarily allegorizing and spiritualizing the Word of God.
God can use allegory in the Scripture for His own purposes. Fallen man, having a sin nature, a blindness of the things of God and, absent being born again, a position of enmity with God, is not on the level of God, does not have the omniscient and omnipresent knowledge of God, and is completely incompetent in understanding the Word of God, and is never told by God or given permission by God to arrogantly change the Word of God by allegorizing it.
Man is not God and does not have the qualifications nor the authority to change one word of Scripture.
Simple as that.
Christians suffer trials and tribulations during this present age because we live in a fallen, evil world of which Satan is god. There is a difference between Satan's wrath and God's wrath and God never promises to always protect Christians from the realities and consequences of living in such a world. The specific, seven year period known as the "Tribulation" is a time of God's, not Satan's and fallen men's, wrath, and Jesus Christ promises to take those who know Him as Savior out of the time of judgment that He will bring on this world for those who have chosen to reject Him.
For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him. (1 Thessalonians 5:9,10)
This thread is for dispensationalists.
Regarding the post attempting to discount the rapture as a myth, the argument presented contains compounded errors in understanding the timelines provided in Scripture.
It is truly consistent that the 2nd Coming occurs after the Rapture, but this doesn’t necessitate the return of the saints occurs prior to the Tribulation.
Most likely the consistent timeline allows for the Church to be prepared for the Wedding Feast in Heaven concurrent with the Tribulation.
At the close of the Church Age, we simply observe in God’s Prophetic timeline that at some point in the future the indwelling of God the Holy Spirit in each member of the Body of Christ will change by His Will. His work in us at that time will have been completed.
We will continue to live in fellowship with Him as His Bride, but God the Holy Spirit’s indwelling will shift to the Jew during the Millennium, as opposed to the Gentile.
The reading also suggests a mistaken understanding of martyrdom, focusing upon suffering instead upon a perseverant witness of Christ.
"and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, that is Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath to come" (1 Thess. 1:10).
"Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell upon the earth." (Revelation 3:10)
Are those passages true or false?
Thank you. The "dispensational caucus" thread is, I think, the only one that is such a threat that the FR rules on caucuses consistently get violated when one is posted.
attempting to discount the rapture as a myth
I don't know why, but it never fails to astound me how easily and effortlessly human beings will just state without blinking an eyelash that God lies.
If I live to be three hundred years old I will never understand that.
By accepting the underlying methods of spinning out a false tale, as in this excerpt's misuse of the Holy Scripture, its thought process falls into the same line as that of the unregenerate Patristics, like Clement and Origen. They led a great many (not all) seekers away from the core common-sense interpretation which Christ and His Apostles modeled, into a methodology based on nonsensical explanations that produced a religion of their liking. The long excerpt you posted here rests on a laundry-list of assumptions not only logically unsupportable, but directly contradicted by other Scripture.
Allegorizing Scripture, when a literal sense and application is demanded by the context, immediately leads to conflict of opinion, argumentation and profitless waste of time and emotion. That seems to be why this caucus prefers that one sticks to the theology framework stipulated. In this case your excerpt is distracting, though readily disproved.
Here's a suggestion: If you wish to know how the theme of the literal snatching away of the souls of Christ's believer-disciples fits in a dispensational framework of God's progressive revelation, follow along and ask. You may not believe in the scheme, but take your Bible and prove it false on our own, if you can.
But let me also suggest that you start to learn a little bit about "hermeneutics"--how to interpret the Bible. A good source is:
Bible 405: HERMENEUTICS - THE STUDY OF THE INTERPRETATION OF SCRIPTURES
This is a downloadable course outline in PDF form, from a reputable theological seminary named after an outstanding Bible interpreter. Going through this will immeasurably improve your responses in this discussion. (Hint: a section with highlights in the history of hermeneutics begins on page 23.)
With a grip on this, you probably won't want to be known as posting excerpts of the type and quality as you have here.
With sincere respect --
You haven't so far. Hopefully you'll be able to come up with something.
Oh and can you also give me the Scripture where God authorizes man to determined that He lied in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18?
All this Scripture that you will provide will be very helpful Thanks.
Very well said. Thank you imardmd1!
Well, yeah we are.
When Jesus promises in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 to take His church off the scene before He sends judgment, and no one can find any Scripture to contradict that, and then Jesus tells us this:
Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3)
where He is reiterating His promise to "come again", and get His bride and take us to where He is, then where is He?
Where is Jesus located right now?
Where does God say that Joseph is a type of Christ?
What I said is that, although raised as a "preacher's kid" in the Methodist denomination, I no longer subscribe to that type of ecclesiastic structure. "Catholic" means "universal," and is based on an interpretation that The Spirit baptizes believers into a mystical, invisible body of Christ, a universal, invisible Church.
This "solution" was a necessity adopted by Augustine to circumvent the fact that his visible church was an impure one; some of whose members were regenerated believer-disciples; some were unregenerate "believers;" and a third class of some who were baptized but too ignorant or non-compliant as yet to be called believers. Also, a dominion of obedience to government outside the local churches (a contra-NT concept) forced this subservience to this invisible Church.
I do not believe in this doctrine, so I am not a Catholic.
What I believe is essentially the Biblical view of Augustine's critics, the Donatists, to whom a true church was/is the assembly of immersed regenerated believer-disciples in a particular locale, maintaining their purity through strong preaching, and church discipling, and stabilized by personal discipling into spiritual maturity. That is certainly orthodox back to the Apostolic age; but it is not Greek or Russian or British or some other "Orthodox" (capital "O"), which are not orthodox at all.
So I am orthodox in belief, but not "Orthodox" in denomination.
Protestants are simply offshoots of Romanism reformed; and hence are illegitimate children who will be gathered back in the end-time ecumenism, after they admit their rebellion. That is now occurring.
I am no longer Protestant, since I was saved.
You will find that the persecuted churches and their preserved Scripture have always remained from the beginning, wherever a hermeneutic of literal grammatical interpretation of the original inscripturated languages has resurfaced. That would include Donatists, Paulicians, Montenses, Waldensians, Albigenses, "Plymouth" brethren, Independent Baptists, etc. which have witnessed in every age against corruption, innovation, Jewish rites, and clerical rule.
This is what I identify with.
==============
I for one am not sure about a pretribulation rapture, and I find that much of what is predicted as future events were actually already fulfilled. For example, I hold that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were very much fulfilled with the destruction of the Jewish temple in 70ad.
Well, that will not survive the fact that The God caused the Jews to be dispersed, and His prophecy for their regathering in Eretz Israel, at the end of the times of the Gentiles, has only recently occurred.
The seven years of the Tribulation (3 1/2 years of the Great Tribulation) are the last 0f the 70 shabats (heptads). You need to go over Daniel 9:24-27 very carefully. Daniel's 70 shabats of years were not literally, actually fulfilled as you claim. It is thought that there has been a hiatus from the 69th week, until recently; for Tisha b'Av began "the times of the Gentiles" on Israel and Jerusalem, until now (Luke 21:20-24).
This generation is still here, and The Prophet said unto his Own, "This generation shall not pass away, til all be fulfilled." That is, "This generation" referred to is the one in whose time dominance of Jerusalem by the Gentiles will be over.
You will want to note that the prophetic dispensationalism is not a new thing, although a resurgence of a literal-historical-grammatical hermeneutic of Christ and His Apostle-disciplers is the mother of sects such as the Darbyites, Independent Baptists, and self-governed Bible Fellowships where Bible teaching rather than "social gospel" activism is the dominant feature.
Awesome post, imardmd1!
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.