Posted on 06/26/2012 3:01:26 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
—Jesus never gave Christians the option to shut up and let people die and spend eternity in hell.—
I will add a caveat to that as well. He never told us to keep beating our heads against the wall with the same people (it often ends in endless arguments and “gotcha” attitudes). I take my example from the “shake the dust off your feet” instruction in scripture.
“Remember that even when the “church” is taken out at the Rapture, there will STILL be people coming to saving faith in Christ during the Tribulation. It will be the Jews but also Gentiles will believe. This means that Christians WILL be in the Tribulation but only those that become believers AFTER the Rapture happens.”
The problem with this is, the pre-tribbers say that while people are being saved on earth during the tribulation, the church is having its wedding feast without them. So, those people won’t get to be part of the bride of Christ under that scenario. The only scenario that leads to a unity of believers is if the wedding feast happens after ALL the
believers are redeemed, at the first resurrection.
“In I Thess. 4, those who “have fallen asleep” that Jesus brings back with him, are those believers who have died and who have been in heaven with the Lord. They do not as yet have their glorified bodies (resurrection body) but they descend with Jesus (their spirits/souls) and their bodies upon the earth rise up to meet their spirits and are changed into glorified bodies as are ours as we also rise up with them to meet the Lord in the air and “so shall we ever be with the Lord”. “
How can they receive “resurrection bodies” without a resurrection? If there is a resurrection before the tribulation, then why is the resurrection that occurs later called the first resurrection, and not the second?
“In I Thess. 5, the Tribulation has begun and it is AFTER the Rapture.”
That’s a non sequiter. There’s no reason to read Thessalonians as some sequential series of events. If that were a fair assumption, then we could look at later verses, such as chapter 5, verse 8, and say that we are being admonished to be sober, after the tribulation has begun. So, that bad assumption can cut both ways.
“There IS no mention of the “church” after chapter 4 in the narrative.”
This statement is valid only if you are already determined that those who are called saints, and who believe in Jesus, are not necessarily part of the church. I, on, the other hand, believe in a universal church of all believers.
There is absolute truth, which is given by God, and then there are the opinions of fallen, sinful men which vary from person to person and can cause people to deceive themselves into thinking that they are okay with God when they are not.
I'll take, for example, your opinion that people who do not accept Christ as Savior and therefore, because of that choice, do not have eternal life, are not aware of their eternal punishment. This is in contradiction to the word of God. In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man, who was in hell, requested that Lazarus be sent to cool his tongue with a drop of water to lessen his “agony in this fire.” The rich man also asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers to repent so that they would never join him in hell.
From this Biblical account, we know that those in hell will be perfectly conscious, will know exactly where they are, will feel the torment they are experiencing, and have regrets about their destiny.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5).
It is very dangerous to substitute our own opinions for the truth of Scripture and God will hold those who do it responsible for the consequences of elevating his or her own flawed, mostly wrong, opinions over the revealed, inerrant word of the living God.
Scripture is the final authority on any subject that it covers. If an opinion is in direct opposition and contradiction to the word of God, then it is the opinion that is wrong and needs to be changed, not the Scripture changed to fit the opinion.
And believers in Christ are to spread the gospel until they are removed at the Rapture. After that, we are told by God, the responsibility for preaching the gospel is turned over to the 144,000 Jewish witnesses (Revelation 7, Revelation 14) and angels (Revelation 14) who will spread the news of salvation through out the world. Since the church has been removed, God hands the job of the church over to those listed in the Revelation Scriptures.
But I do agree that eventually the time does come to, like Jesus told us, shake the dust off our feet and move on.
bttt
—There is absolute truth, which is given by God, and then there are the opinions of fallen, sinful men which vary from person to person and can cause people to deceive themselves into thinking that they are okay with God when they are not. —
Yep.
—I’ll take, for example, your opinion that people who do not accept Christ as Savior and therefore, because of that choice, do not have eternal life, are not aware of their eternal punishment. This is in contradiction to the word of God.—
You mean, your interpretation. You see, I acknowledge that mine is but my opinion. But so is your position.
—In the parable of Lazarus and the rich man, we know that the rich man, who was in hell, requested that Lazarus be sent to cool his tongue with a drop of water to lessen his “agony in this fire.” The rich man also asked Abraham to send Lazarus back to earth to warn his brothers to repent so that they would never join him in hell. —
But what is the parable actually about? Who is the audience?
Here is a good analysis: http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/lazarus.html
The key here is not that you have scripture and I don’t. Rather it is that we BOTH have scripture but are interpreting it differently.
Ultimately, we are two guys with different opinions who’s opinions can both be supported by scripture to one degree or another. For what it’s worth, I used to take your position, though it did seem to contradict the loving, yet just, nature of God.
I could be wrong, and so could you. But I am doing my best to interpret it based on what the bible teaches (as well as my relationship with Him) about the personality of God that we can apply to the individual events, stories and teachings.
The result is that you and I come away with different interpretations of what is meant by “eternal damnation”.
The problem with this is, the pre-tribbers say that while people are being saved on earth during the tribulation, the church is having its wedding feast without them. So, those people won’t get to be part of the bride of Christ under that scenario. The only scenario that leads to a unity of believers is if the wedding feast happens after ALL the believers are redeemed, at the first resurrection.
That is correct, there are some believers, depending upon when they came to saving faith who are called by various names in Scripture. The "Bride of Christ" consists of all those who have received Jesus Christ as savior during the "church" age. The redeemed of Israel who had died before the coming of Christ are called the "Wife of Jehovah" and those who get saved after the Rapture will STILL be in Heaven, but they are not participants in the Marriage Feast of the Lamb since it is happening during the Tribulation. Revelation 20:6 says, "Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them". So, "sharing in the first resurrection" is the key and doesn't necessarily mean this "first" resurrection happens for everyone all at the same time. Those who are resurrected at the Rapture share in Christ's resurrection with those who have died before and those who die, or go into the Millennium alive that are saved also take part, or share, in that first resurrection. The "Second Death" has no power over anyone who has shared in the first resurrection.
Resurrection "bodies" will be given to those who are taken up in the Rapture as well as those who died during the Tribulation as Revelation 20:4 says. The living saved (those who escaped death) go into the Millennium in their human bodies. They continue to bear children, and those children must still choose to believe on and follow Jesus Christ, who will be ruling and reigning on earth in total righteousness and justice. That is where all those people come from that rebel against Christ at the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed. They are the offspring of the saved living who go into the Millennium.
That’s a non sequiter. There’s no reason to read Thessalonians as some sequential series of events. If that were a fair assumption, then we could look at later verses, such as chapter 5, verse 8, and say that we are being admonished to be sober, after the tribulation has begun. So, that bad assumption can cut both ways.
Actually, it is not. There are no chapter and verse separations in Scripture. They were added by the translators. So Paul is speaking of sequences of events from what he says in chapter 4 and then what is going to happen in chapter 5. He, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, is speaking to believers who could be in one or the other circumstance. In I Thess. 4, he is consoling Christians about loved ones who have died and he reveals what will happen when the Rapture comes. In chapter 5 he is talking about the "Day of the Lord". Some people had already quit their jobs and were sitting around waiting for Christ to come back putting a burden on others to feed them and their families. Paul wanted to comfort them to know that:
But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness. So then, let us not be like others, who are asleep, but let us be awake and sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, get drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on faith and love as a breastplate, and the hope of salvation as a helmet. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing." (I Thess. 5:4-11)
It is in Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, that he speaks about it some more. Some people had unsettled them with rumors that Christ had already come back and they were left behind. Paul tells them in II Thess. 2:1-12
Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter —asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. Don’t you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things? And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Then in verses 13-14, he consoles them with:
But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
This says to me that Paul knew that the Rapture, when it came - and even he did not know when it would happen - true believers in Christ would NOT be left behind to suffer the tribulation under the anti-christ.
As to the "universal" body of believers, I, too, believe in such and it spans all the generation since Christ until the Rapture happens. It is a special group called the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ, but it is distinct from the Old Testament believers as well as the Tribulation believers. We WILL all be joined with God in Heaven and our reward will be an eternity with our Creator and Savior.
How can they be part of the Church after God the Holy Spirit is removed from the Body of believers? The Church Age will have ended at the Rapture, prior to the Great Tribulation, although there will still be believers.
“How can they be part of the Church after God the Holy Spirit is removed from the Body of believers?”
The Bible never says the Holy Spirit will be removed. Pre-tribbers assume this, but the Bible doesn’t say it. If the Holy Spirit is God, and God is omnipresent, then how can the Holy Spirit be removed?
Psalm 139
7: Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
8: If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
9: If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
10: Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.
“The Church Age will have ended at the Rapture, prior to the Great Tribulation...”
This is another assumption, which I don’t accept, so you’re not going to convince me of anything simply by restating it. Jesus told us that His return would be visible, after the tribulation had begun, and that we should look up to the heavens, for our redemption would be nigh. That’s clear evidence that we will be on Earth to witness His visible return, along with the rest of mankind who is alive at the time.
Luke 21
22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
“That is correct, there are some believers, depending upon when they came to saving faith who are called by various names in Scripture. The “Bride of Christ” consists of all those who have received Jesus Christ as savior during the “church” age. The redeemed of Israel who had died before the coming of Christ are called the “Wife of Jehovah” and those who get saved after the Rapture will STILL be in Heaven, but they are not participants in the Marriage Feast of the Lamb since it is happening during the Tribulation.”
So, your assertion is that God has two wives?
Hosea 2
18 And in that day will I make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field and with the fowls of heaven, and with the creeping things of the ground: and I will break the bow and the sword and the battle out of the earth, and will make them to lie down safely.
19 And I will betroth thee unto me for ever; yea, I will betroth thee unto me in righteousness, and in judgment, and in lovingkindness, and in mercies.
20 I will even betroth thee unto me in faithfulness: and thou shalt know the Lord.
Is a bethrothal faithful if one party takes another to wed?
“Revelation 20:6 says, “Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them”. So, “sharing in the first resurrection” is the key and doesn’t necessarily mean this “first” resurrection happens for everyone all at the same time.”
The first resurrection is instantaneous, so it must happen at the same time for everyone:
1 Corinthians 15
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
“The living saved (those who escaped death) go into the Millennium in their human bodies.”
See above... “We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed”
“That is where all those people come from that rebel against Christ at the end of the thousand years when Satan is loosed. They are the offspring of the saved living who go into the Millennium.”
No, they are those who were never allowed in the New Jerusalem in the first place.
Revelation 22
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Those who are outside the city (the four quarters of the earth) will be gathered for the final battle:
Revelation 20
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
“Actually, it is not. There are no chapter and verse separations in Scripture. They were added by the translators. So Paul is speaking of sequences of events from what he says in chapter 4 and then what is going to happen in chapter 5.”
There is no relation to the fact that the verse and chapter numbering was added later, and the fact that not everything in the Bible is sequential. There are many places in the Bible, especially in prophecy, where events are not described sequentially. They must be read in context, you cannot assume a sequence without evidence.
“This says to me that Paul knew that the Rapture, when it came - and even he did not know when it would happen - true believers in Christ would NOT be left behind to suffer the tribulation under the anti-christ.”
That’s not what Paul says though, it’s what you are reading into Paul’s words. Yes, he is telling them that the day of the Lord has not yet come, in order to console them that they haven’t “missed the boat”. He clearly states that the man of perdition must be revealed first, which we know is going to happen during or after the tribulation. This is a sign for them to watch for, which would be pointless if they would already be raptured out of the way.
Pre-tribbers say that the rapture comes years before the day of the Lord, but if that were so, then why would the church be worried that the day of the Lord had already come and they had missed it? Wouldn’t they instead be worried that the rapture had come and they had missed it? The very fact that they were worried about missing the day of the Lord shows that they had been instructed that these events were in close proximity, if not synonymous.
“As to the “universal” body of believers, I, too, believe in such and it spans all the generation since Christ until the Rapture happens. It is a special group called the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ, but it is distinct from the Old Testament believers as well as the Tribulation believers.”
Are we not all branches of the same olive tree?
Romans 11
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
We of the church are not the root, we are but grafted branches. So, how can we think to separate ourselves from the natural branches? We partake in the rewards promised to them first!
How can we be separated then, as to one group being the Bride of Christ, and the other the Bride of God? Is there a separate salvation for us, one from Christ, and one from God?
Romans 3
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
We are all justified by faith in Christ, Jew and Gentile, Israel, and the Church. So, if we are all redeemed by Christ, then we are all His bride.
Rev 19
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
Notice the bride wears the righteousness of the saints as her clothing. Are the saints only the church? Even pre-tribbers can’t argue that, since there are saints during the tribulation, and there are saints in the Old Testament before the “church age” begins. All who have faith in Christ are one, and we all share the same promises:
Galatians 3
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
...
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
...
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
How much clearer can it get? There is one seed that receives the promises, united in Christ. This is why those in the Old Testament are saints, those in the New Testament are saints, those in the tribulation are saints, and those at the wedding feast are saints.
One does not refer to Seth, nor Enoch, nor Noah, nor Abraham, nor David, nor the believing thief (also being crucified), as "Christians"; because though (excepting one human other than Jesus) the Spirit may have been with each one of them, and/or upon one, they are never referred to as having the spirit in them. (Num. 11:25,26,28; Is. 44:3; Ezek. 11:19, 36:27; Joel 21:28)
On the day that the epoch of assemblies of summoned-out-ones began, on Pentecost, the Holy Ghost was said to be poured out both upon the believer-disciples, the hagioi (Acts 2:17, viz. Joel 2:28); and as later on described as sealed with the secure assurance of having the Spirit in the saved-ones' hearts (2 Cor. 1:22), and having His Spirit in the inner man (Eph. 3:16).
These regenerated believer-disciples are the ones spoken of by Jesus to Nicodemus (Jn. 3:3, 5, 6) are those who possess a new spiritual being inside their old-man shell, and are unlike any other human who--though believing--have never been born anew. These reborn humans constitute His ekklesia=Church, composed of His kletoi=summoned ones. It was several years later in Antioch (Paul's sending church) that those assembling regularly to Christ's summons, to learn and practice His commands, were titled "Christian" as a profession, just like a meatcutter is titled "butcher," or a dress-maker is called "seamstress."
What we refer to today as a "Christian" may well not be a regenerated believer-disciple confessing The Christ, but merely an unregenerated (not reborn) believer-adherent professors only companying with the ones fully given to The Christ.
I say this, not necessarily in the pejorative sense, but as a known fact since the beginning of the "age of churches"--which age will terminate at the moment we call "the rapture" --in which only the regenerated beings, either physically having died or yet physically alive, will be rejoined to a new spiritual, bloodless, glorified body, and removed from this physical sphere into a spiritual domain of their Anointed One.
The unregenerated believing professors will not be up-taken, but will remain with the host of unbelievers who, in this physical world, will suffer God's retribution for not completely, persistently trusting in Christ's faithfulness, but (at least in part) of their own efforts, their "holiness," to purchase a route into the spiritual Kingdom of The God.
Now, some of these unregenerated "believers" may eventually be converted. Peter was converted after the Crucifixion (see Lk. 22:31-32; conversion at Galilee Jn.21:15-18); and later regenerated on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon a Christ-less kosmos, and into the waiting believer-disciples; scheduled as the Bride of The Christ. However, unlike Peter, these tribulation-saved ones will not be indwelt by the Holy Spirit, though is written that they will be protected by the Spirit.
Such "believers" may, converted after "the rapture," then become used of the Lord during and after the Tribulation, in the same way that pre-Abrahamic Gentiles and Abraham's seeds were used of Jehovah in the ages preceding the "Age of the Churches." They may even still call themselves "Christians," but they will never be a part of the spiritual-born Bride of The Christ.
They will be saved by now-fully trusting in Israel's Messiach, and will be what is now termed as: "Friends of the Bride."
But The Bride will not be subjected to the tribulational wrath of God, will she/it? Because the espoused Bride will have been taken into another dimension, into the sphere of The Kingdom Of The God, where The Christ is also the Absolute, Perfect Ruler, to be His Celestial Consort forever.
(just a little expansion of what you have said above)
Can you give me which part of what I posted that was Scripture and which part was my opinion?
Thanks.
The key here is not that you have scripture and I don’t. Rather it is that we BOTH have scripture but are interpreting it differently.
Not really. You have posted no Scripture to support your position so its not a matter of interpretation. It's a matter of your having an opinion which you cannot validate with Scripture then making an attempt to discredit the Scripture I posted, which was written and inspired by God, by trying to say that I have my own "interpretation". This is the point where I'm going to need to see from you which part was my opinion and which part was what God said.
Ultimately, we are two guys with different opinions who’s opinions can both be supported by scripture to one degree or another. For what it’s worth, I used to take your position, though it did seem to contradict the loving, yet just, nature of God.
Are you saying that the Scripture I posted which describes hell contradicts the loving, yet just nature of God? Would you like to explain your rationale? Does Christ's death on the cross contradict His loving yet just nature? Does Jesus Christ taking on Himself the sin of every single man, woman and child who has ever lived and will ever live and taking the wrath of God for all that sin contradict His loving, yet just nature? Where do you get the justification for your opinion that the reality of hell contradicts God's loving, yet just nature? Is there anyone who has ever existed past, or present who does not deserve hell? Why or why not and can you produce the Scripture to support your conclusion? What part of the Scriptural, God-given description of hell to you object to and what is your justification for your objection?
I could be wrong, and so could you. But I am doing my best to interpret it based on what the bible teaches (as well as my relationship with Him) about the personality of God that we can apply to the individual events, stories and teachings.
Do you have Scripture you can post that supports your opinion of what hell is? Do you believe that your opinion supersedes what God has said about hell? Do you believe that your opinion of what hell is is correct and the facts about hell as God has given them to us is incorrect? Do you believe that your opinion of what hell is is true and God is wrong?
The result is that you and I come away with different interpretations of what is meant by “eternal damnation”.
But that's just not true. I gave no "interpretation", I posted the Scripture about hell straight from the Bible while you produced exactly no Scripture that would validate your opinion about hell. So, again, it's not about "interpretation", it's about whether an opinion is Scriptural or whether it is not Scriptural. The fact that you posted nothing from God to back up your opinion means that your opinion is just that - an opinion that God disagrees with and which, if told to people who then reject Christ as Savior because they get the deadly dangerous impression that hell just isn't that big a deal, leaves you with a big, eternal problem.
Are you willing to have to face God and have to answer for the fact that you substituted your own fallen opinion for His word? Are you willing to face God and answer for the fact that your opinion quite possibly resulted in one or more persons spending eternity in the hell that God describes in the Bible because you taught a Sunday school class and gave the students not Biblical truth but your own opinion?
Are you prepared for that?
I learn so much from what you post!
You always bring a fresh, wonderful perspective and I love to read your posts!
As we know from Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy, the seven-year Tribulation is God's final week of the prophecy where He deals with Israel. The sacrifices will resume, the temple will be rebuilt, and the world will revert from the time of the age of grace back to the Old Testament law.
And, as we know from 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7, the Holy Spirit will be "taken out of the way" before the Antichrist is revealed, and, since the Holy Spirit indwells those who truly know Christ as Savior, and since Christ said that He would send the Holy Spirit to those who know Him after His departure, and since He promised to never leave us or forsake us, then if the Holy Spirit is removed, so will we also be removed.
Since the earth will be back in the dispensation of the Old Testament law for the final seven years of Daniel's prophecy, people will be saved during that time, but God's grace will not be the same as it is now. There will be people who are saved but take the mark out of desperation to feed their families and as a result of taking that mark they will spend eternity in hell. There will be no eternal security then as there is now.
Your post was exactly on the mark. Thank you.
Israel as the wife is described as being unfaithful. The Bride of Christ is described as being chaste.
There are more complex relationships involved, but they are not identical.
“Israel as the wife is described as being unfaithful. The Bride of Christ is described as being chaste.”
Yet, even though Israel was unfaithful, God will forget her unfaithfulness. We read in Jeremiah how God will disperse her through all the nations and chase her with the sword, before gathering her back to the Holy Land for the final time of trouble. Then, in Chapter 31, God says this:
“2 Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel, when I went to cause him to rest.
3 The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.
4 Again I will build thee, and thou shalt be built, O virgin of Israel: thou shalt again be adorned with thy tabrets, and shalt go forth in the dances of them that make merry.”
God loves his Bride with an everlasting love, and calls her a virgin, even after he has just described all her adulteries and the chastisements he will send on her for them! Why does he call her a virgin again?
“The people which were left of the sword found grace in the wilderness; even Israel”
They found grace! Their adulteries are forgiven, through grace, just as our sins are forgiven through grace, given freely to us by Christ. So, to call Israel unfaithful at the end of her troubles is not in line with God’s scripture. He will not call her unfaithful then, but a virgin, just as the Church is called a chaste virgin.
—You have posted no Scripture—
I said I have scripture to support my postion, not that I have posted it. And I posted a link that uses all sorts of scripture. There are plenty out there. I was “turn or burn” before I was annihilation. Both positions made their case with tons of scripture. I prayerfully chose, and used my God given brain as well.
But the bottom line is that I agree with you: The bible describes to fate of those who accept the blood of Christ and the fate of those who don’t. The former to eternal life, the latter to destruction. And that IS from the bible.
Interpret it as you will, but involving “future” events in “eternity” as described in the bible, suggesting that your “through a glass, darkly” viewpoints are absolutly correct, is, well, kinda dumb. And to then call into question the salvation of someone that disagrees with you on it falls into “judge not, lest ye be judged” territory.
I linked to an article that gives a great deal of scripture and even includes an analysis of Lazarus and the rich man, complete with tables. To suggest I offered no scripture is preposterous. And you offered NOTHING I have not seen before.
We simply disagree. I prefer to leave it at that. You can leave it wherever you want as well. But I discuss this in the spirit of love, fully aware that we are all flawed individuals.
Well I don't know that I would call it "dumb", especially since I never "interpret" Scripture but just take it as God wrote it with no additions or subtractions or changing to fit what I would like to see.
For example, when God says in His word that He would bring His chosen people back from among the nations to their own land that He, through the unconditional Abrahamic covenant, gave to them, and that He would make them a nation again in one day, as He told us in Isaiah 66:7-8, and that promise was kept on May 14, 1948, that tells me that simply taking God at His word, with no "interpretation", has been proven to be the best way to read Scripture.
And, of course, that same system of reading Scripture applies to all prophetic Scripture. Just like past prophecies, which were written by God, have come to pass just as He said they would, down to the last detail, so will the prophecies concerning Christ's return be fulfilled just as God wrote them, down to the smallest detail.
Yes, we are all flawed individuals. But when it comes to the word of God, and the eternal destiny of the souls of human beings, none of us have any leeway or wiggle room or authority to take the Scriptures any way but as God gave them to us.
—Well I don’t know that I would call it “dumb”, especially since I never “interpret” Scripture but just take it as God wrote it with no additions or subtractions or changing to fit what I would like to see. —
Actually, most of what we get out of scripture is interpreted. This is partly true because we are reading a translation, which was “interpreted” from another language. A bible scholar friend of mine actually said that you can’t really “fully” understand the content of the bible with out a strong understanding of the languages in which it was originally written and fluency in those languages. It means my understanding of Jesus and our father’s personality come more from my relationship with Him than from His word. So I use prayer and personal relationship with Him and what it communicates over what the bible communicates, when the scripture is confusing. It tells me that the fence stays blue, as opposed to painting the fence forever.
That’s why I cut slack on the opinions of others on “non-bullet”* doctrines.
We agree on 1948. But using that to prove that you can take revelation as plain is a mistake. After all, there is a lot of scripture about Jesus in the OT, yet even Paul got it wrong until his encounter with Jesus.
And to give you an idea about my take on eternity, if I say I am going to paint a fence blue for all eternity, do I mean I’m going to spend eternity painting it or do I mean I will paint it and then it will STAY BLUE for all eternity?
Also, you say past prophesies came to pass just as he said they would, yet it was not so obvious to those alive before the event, as much as they thought it was. It’s why they had Jesus killed.
And the events which you and I are discussing are “future”. And I find it fascinating that so many that read scripture that says some go to eternal life and others to destruction can then argue that both are, in fact, still alive. It kinda makes either God or His word a liar. That is, unless you “interpret” it to mean something else.
*A bullet doctrine is one you would take a bullet for - such as grace.
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