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Birth Control and Baptists
http://www.churchmilitant.tv/daily/?today=2012-06-29

Posted on 07/01/2012 1:18:00 AM PDT by stpio

R. Albert Mohler, Jr., President of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary isn't sure if Birth Control is a sin.

Watch this Vortex. The problem with Protestantism, you get to decide.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Moral Issues
KEYWORDS: authority; bible; contraception; helltoupee; sin; sourcetitlenoturl
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1 posted on 07/01/2012 1:18:16 AM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio

Michael Voris is the kind of guy who makes you want to become Catholic. Unfortunately, Catholicism, with all its mechanical theology, saints and work based salvation, is far too distant for me to ever hold my nose for it. I do hope Michael trusts in Jesus Christ for his salvation, and not in his works, as I would like to see him in heaven.


2 posted on 07/01/2012 1:27:04 AM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: stpio

Whatever the case, Voris is an excellent enemy against progressive Catholics. I’d rather they be conservative and fundamentalists, rather than liberal and flaky.


3 posted on 07/01/2012 1:28:49 AM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: stpio

Southern Baptists vote 80% pro-life and pro-marriage, and anti-liberal.

Roman Catholics vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

and the problem is the Southern Baptists?


4 posted on 07/01/2012 1:41:40 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

If you’re not having kids then you aren’t exactly going to be spreading your message on are you?


5 posted on 07/01/2012 1:55:39 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: ansel12

“Southern Baptists vote 80% pro-life and pro-marriage, and anti-liberal.”

Roman Catholics vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

and the problem is the Southern Baptists?”

~ ~ ~

Your statistics? The Baptist percentage on life is about Abortion. Protestants caved in 1930, going against God, approving contraception.

The Pill came on the market in the mid 1960s. The question is being asked now? Reverend Mohler has no answers.

http://www.christianpost.com/news/can-christians-use-birth-control-76132/

Can Christians use Birth Control?

June 6, 2012

“Therefore, Christians may make careful and discriminating use of proper technologies, but must never buy into the contraceptive mentality. We can never see children as problems to be avoided, but always as gifts to be welcomed and received.
For evangelicals, much work remains to be done. We must build and nurture a new tradition of moral theology, drawn from Holy Scripture and enriched by the theological heritage of the church. Until we do, many evangelical couples will not even know where to begin the process of thinking about birth control in a fully Christian frame. It is high time evangelicals answered this call.”


6 posted on 07/01/2012 2:06:16 AM PDT by stpio
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To: JCBreckenridge

Immigration isn’t the answer to preserving America and conservatism, it is the destruction of it.

As far as having kids, when did America quit having kids and having enough of them to keep up our population?

Roman Catholics vote for abortion and gay marriage and for liberalism because they want to have kids?

Southern Baptists don’t have kids?


7 posted on 07/01/2012 2:06:27 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: stpio

“Southern Baptists vote 80% pro-life and pro-marriage, and anti-liberal.”

Roman Catholics vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

Who do we need to fix?


8 posted on 07/01/2012 2:08:16 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

“Southern Baptists vote 80% pro-life and pro-marriage, and anti-liberal.”

Roman Catholics vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

Who do we need to fix?

~ ~ ~

Your same reply repeated, I give you the same answer.

Your statistics? The Baptist percentage on life is about Abortion. Protestants caved in 1930, going against God, approving contraception.

The Pill came on the market in the mid 1960s. The question is being asked now? Reverend Mohler has no answers.

Read the article. Contraception is against God, Reverend Mohler realizes the Church teaches this but can’t say it himself.


9 posted on 07/01/2012 2:15:58 AM PDT by stpio
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To: ansel12

Insofar as the southern baptists that practice contraception aren’t.

You’ve framed the debate as ‘sustainable population’, which is really sad.

Whatever happened to the quiverful?


10 posted on 07/01/2012 2:26:00 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: RaisingCain
Unfortunately, Catholicism, with all its mechanical theology, saints and work based salvation...

A saint is merely someone who has died and gone to heaven. The doctrine of the communion of saints has it that we on earth are still in communion with those who have died and gone to heaven. We are still all in communion, part of God's Kingdom, seen and unseen.

It may seem odd if not you're not familiar with the doctrine, but once understood, it truly is one of the most beautiul aspects of our faith as Christians.

On works, of course Catholics understand that we cannot work our way to heaven, but good works, (corporal works of mercy, alms giving etc. etc.) are part of being Christian.

11 posted on 07/01/2012 2:38:03 AM PDT by AAABEST (Et lux in tenebris lucet: et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Roman Catholics are voting for abortion, homosexuality and partial birth abortion and every perversion under the Democrat party, and you want to go after the anti-liberal church?


12 posted on 07/01/2012 2:43:48 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: stpio

Liberal voters are against God, and Roman Catholics are liberal voters.

If you support conservatism, and life, then vote like a Southern Baptists.

I do not understand this Catholic disconnect between voting and Christian values, and conservatism.

Southern Baptists are our most right wing, pro- God voting block, Catholics vote democrat. How is it that we are promoting liberalism here and attacking conservatives?


13 posted on 07/01/2012 2:54:32 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: stpio
This Vortex link makes it totally clear that Michael Voris is abysmally ignorant church history, by confusing today's Baptists with another Christian general group called "Protestants."

Without supporting whatever Rev. Mohler said, I feel constrained to remind you that Michael Voris's rant demonstrates a typically unlearned position in which he refers to Baptists as Protestants. Baptists most emphatically are not Protestants, and every Roman Catholic and Protestant ought to be taught this.

Baptists are not Protestants=Reformers and this is why:

If one wants to emerge from ignorance of what baptists are, and have been, since the day the first Church of The Lord Jesus Christ was initiated by Christ's command to be assembled at Jerusalem, by Holy Spirit baptism on the 50th day after His Resurrection. Roman Ctholics have only existed as such when they were proclaimed as the Byzantine State Church by Constantine at Nicaea, about two hundred years later. The Protestants were those who were determined to reform the Roman Catholic church leadership abuses, and did not arrive until abot 1400 plus years after the Baptists. They were latecomers, not anything conforming to the distinctive marks of New Testament Baptist theology.

Here is a link to a site which clearly enumerate those BAPTIST Distinctives of which the following is a summary:

o B-Biblical Authority
o A-autonomy of the Local Church
o P-priesthood of the Believers
o T-two Ordinances of the Church
o I-individual soul liberty
o S-saved and baptized church membership
o T-two offices of the church -- pastor/elder and deacon
o S-separation of church and state

Rev. Mohler's statement will be largely based on this excerpt from the site, and is Scriptural, in that:

"Every individual Christian has the liberty to believe, right or wrong, as his/her own conscience dictates. While we seek to persuade men to choose the right, a person must not be forced to into compliance, realizing that it is not always the larger group who holds the truth when, in fact, our heritage as Baptists has demonstrated the worth of every individual believer.

"So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. -- Romans 14:12 (totally in agreement with the context)

Any one of these fully Scripture-based distinctives will completely separate the Baptist from any form of Protestantism, let alone the sacral society proceeding from the Roman Empire.

The reason these distinctives are not pointed out by other Christian religious forms is because these other forms would founder on considering truly Bivlical principles of organization seriously.

Now, just to make a point on personal interpretation of artificial contraception, my son and his wife are Independent Baptists, and my son is a Deacon of that church. At the outset of their marriage, they decided that they would not be telling God what they were going to do with their bodies, but determined to let Him decide. I now have 10 beautiful grandchildren, who have met with The LORD for family worship at the beginning of every morning. Then they go on about their duties in homeschooling and work.

His brother has five children, and my daughter (widowed) has four.

Let me challenge anyone who reads this reply come up with a better way to serve The Christ than as a Baptist, a Bible-believing and obeying immersionist.

Respectfully denying the authenticity of Michael Voris, S. T. B.

I know what authenticity is in this matter.

14 posted on 07/01/2012 3:07:14 AM PDT by imardmd1 (...Let such as love Thy salvation say continually,"The LORD be magnified!" Ps. 40:16b)
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To: JCBreckenridge
If you’re not having kids then you aren’t exactly going to be spreading your message on are you?

Liberals abort their children and then try to spread their message to our children in the public schools and in college.

15 posted on 07/01/2012 3:07:30 AM PDT by Pollster1 (A boy becomes a man when a man is needed - John Steinbeck)
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To: Pollster1

Liberals vote liberal, conservatives vote conservative.

The Roman Catholic voter has with rare (recent) exceptions, voted liberal.

It was 54& for Obama and the hard left in 2008.


16 posted on 07/01/2012 3:20:51 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

“Liberal voters are against God, and Roman Catholics are liberal voters.”....

~ ~ ~

You are ignoring the subject, Contraception IS a grave sin, and since Protestants have made themselves their own authority spiritually, they long ago rejected this truth.

Your generalizations do not fit all Catholics. There are very few Protestants who believe Contraception is a grave mortal sin, most do not. Their pastors, their leaders will not preach it.

These leaders and pastors believe the same. Read the Baptist’s minister/President’s question. The sin of Contraception is in Scripture but Protestants have fallen away. No authority, you can believe whatever you wish as
Michael Voris points out.

Almost fifty years, the moral and physical damage of the Pill, science confirms the Pill is an abortifacient, families are broken, cancer risks, environmental, etc...Protestants are starting to change and Cafeteria Catholics too.

You need an an authority. All the things Pope Paul VI predicted about contraception in 1968 happened and more.

President Mohler says almost, the RCC is correct.

God bless you,


17 posted on 07/01/2012 3:37:16 AM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio

To throw stones at the good people while embracing evil is a form of the beam in the eye that Catholics do, they ARE the left, yet they attack the right as evil.


18 posted on 07/01/2012 3:46:25 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

“To throw stones at the good people while embracing evil is a form of the beam in the eye that Catholics do, they ARE the left, yet they attack the right as evil.”

~ ~ ~

Catholics are “the left”, no conservatives. That’s a lie.

Your general again “good people”, the fruit of believing whatever you wish, God wants you to follow Him. Contraception is a grave mortal sin.

Do not defend it.


19 posted on 07/01/2012 3:51:27 AM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio

During all those years of the left and their agenda, who do you think was voting for them?

The Catholic church is left, and the Catholic voter is left.

Do you realize that Protestants have only voted for Democrat Presidents three times in American history since the arrival of the Catholics to America?

1932, 1936, and 1964, that is it! Do you want to know who Catholics vote for?


20 posted on 07/01/2012 3:56:32 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: stpio

I am against anti-God democrat voters, are you?

Did you vote like a Southern Baptist in 2008, or like a Catholic?


21 posted on 07/01/2012 4:00:09 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: imardmd1

“Now, just to make a point on personal interpretation of artificial contraception, my son and his wife are Independent Baptists, and my son is a Deacon of that church. At the outset of their marriage, they decided that they would not be telling God what they were going to do with their bodies, but determined to let Him decide. I now have 10 beautiful grandchildren, who have met with The LORD for family worship at the beginning of every morning. Then they go on about their duties in homeschooling and work.”

~ ~ ~

Wonderful, your son and his wife are following God.

President/Reverend Mohler does not say this in his article, he can’t figure out, he knows what the Church teaches, (she stands alone, never changing on the Truth) but puts up an objection and in the end leaves it to others to figure out. Read his last sentences.


22 posted on 07/01/2012 4:03:32 AM PDT by stpio
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To: ansel12

I don’t know how Southern Baptists vote. I didn’t vote
for either of the two Presidential candidates in 08.

How do you vote on contraception, may I ask?


23 posted on 07/01/2012 4:07:47 AM PDT by stpio
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To: stpio

Southern Baptist are the best God voters.

“The GOP identification slipped a little in 2008, but about 80% of the Southern Baptists voted for McCain over Barack Obama.”

Catholics voted for Obama.

I don’t recall a vote on contraception,refresh my memory.


24 posted on 07/01/2012 4:14:21 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

If they use the pill they are not pro-life. They only self-identify as pro-life. These are two different things.


25 posted on 07/01/2012 4:16:04 AM PDT by impimp
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To: stpio
The problem with Protestantism, you get to decide.

Then don't become a Protestant. After all, Christianity is all about freedom to choose and freedom to face the consequences of our choices.
26 posted on 07/01/2012 4:17:58 AM PDT by cripplecreek (What does it profit a man if he gains the whole world but loses his soul?)
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To: stpio

I do not see how contraception can be treated as a one size fits all. To say all forms are sin, I don’t buy it. Sure the obvious, abortion, pill and such that destroy life. Yes those are evil. Without getting into details, there are things husband and wife can do for enjoyment/bonding that limit the chance of pregnancy.


27 posted on 07/01/2012 4:18:18 AM PDT by st.eqed
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To: ansel12

Jimmy Carter = Southern Baptist and extreme liberal


28 posted on 07/01/2012 4:25:43 AM PDT by Notwithstanding (Christ Jesus Victor, Ruler, Lord and Redeemer!)
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To: impimp

That explains why Roman Catholics vote for abortion and homosexuality, and why they embrace liberalism.


29 posted on 07/01/2012 4:29:01 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Notwithstanding

Gosh, naming individual people, I personally don’t see how that means anything.


30 posted on 07/01/2012 4:32:06 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: imardmd1

Without question, Baptists ARE protestants. What has been stated here is untruthful, and cannot be supported by history. The baptists were started, as a denomination, in early 1600’s by John Smyth. Therefore, baptists are protestants, as they are, in fact, arriving on the scene 1600 years AFTER Our Lord’s Crucifixion, Resurrection, and Ascension, as a part of the protest of and revolt away from the Roman Catholic Church. History IS.

From http://www.reformedreader.org/smyth.htm

John Smyth, 1570-1612
The earliest General Baptist Church was thought to be founded about 1608 or 1609. Its chief founder was John Smyth and it was located in Holland. Smyth’s history begins in England where he was ordained as an Anglican priest in 1594. Soon after his ordination, his zeal landed him in prison for refusal to conform to the teachings and practices of the Church of England. He was an outspoken man who was quick to challenge others about their beliefs but was just as quick to change his own positions as his own personal theology changed. Smyth continually battled the Church of England until it became obvious that he could no longer stay in fellowship with this church. Thus, he finally broke totally from them and became a “Separatist”.

In 1609, Smyth, along with a group in Holland, came to believe in believer’s baptism (as opposed to infant baptism which was the norm at that time) and they came together to form the first “Baptist” church. In the beginning, Smyth was on track with the typical orthodox church position; but as time passed, as was so typical, he began changing his positions. First, Smyth insisted that true worship was from the heart and that any form of reading from a book in worship was an invention of sinful man. Prayer, singing and preaching had to be completely spontaneous. He went so far with this mentality that he would not allow the reading of the Bible during worship “since he regarded English translations of Scripture as something less than the direct word of God.”5 Second, Smyth introduced a twofold church leadership, that of Pastor and Deacon. This was in contrast to the Reformational trifold leadership of Pastor-Elder, Lay-Elders, and Deacons.

Third, with his newfound position on baptism, a whole new concern arose for these “Baptists”. Having been baptized as infants, they all realized that they would have to be re-baptized. Since there was no other minister to administer baptism, Smyth baptized himself and then proceeded to baptize his flock. An interesting note at this point that should be brought to bear is that the mode of baptism used was that of pouring, for immersion would not become the standard for another generation. Before his death, as seems characteristic of Smyth, he abandoned his Baptist views and began trying to bring his flock into the Mennonite church. Although he died before this happened, most of his congregation did join themselves with the Mennonite church after his death.

Taken from:
A Primer on Baptist History
The True Baptist Trail
by Chris

Traffanstedt


31 posted on 07/01/2012 4:35:39 AM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: stpio

Mr. Voris is right again. The whole series from last week is great.


32 posted on 07/01/2012 4:36:48 AM PDT by sayuncledave (et Verbum caro factum est (And the Word was made flesh))
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To: ansel12

A large percentage of Catholic Obama voters don’t even identify as pro-life. Also there is a difference between Mass attending Catholics and Catholics who have only received baptism. I am not sure if there a many people who identify as Baptists, yet don’t go to Church. These might be reasons for the better voting numbers for Baptists vs. Catholics.

But as a Catholic, I commend Baptists for they way they vote when they are looked at in aggregate.


33 posted on 07/01/2012 4:38:51 AM PDT by impimp
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To: impimp
It isn't just Baptists. When you put all non Catholic Christians together, blacks, Hispanics, Baptists, Lesbian Episcopalians, or whatever all that those things are collectively, they are more conservative than the single, Rome controlled, Catholic denomination of Christians.
34 posted on 07/01/2012 4:47:51 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

Where did I say anything about the southern baptist church?

I’m talking about the southern baptist families, the husbands and wives who choose to use contraception.

I’m also concerned that you seem content with holding the line.

Do you believe that overpopulation is a significant problem for the world today?


35 posted on 07/01/2012 4:53:55 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: stpio
“Therefore, Christians may make careful and discriminating use of proper technologies, but must never buy into the contraceptive mentality. We can never see children as problems to be avoided, but always as gifts to be welcomed and received. For evangelicals, much work remains to be done. We must build and nurture a new tradition of moral theology, drawn from Holy Scripture and enriched by the theological heritage of the church. Until we do, many evangelical couples will not even know where to begin the process of thinking about birth control in a fully Christian frame. It is high time evangelicals answered this call.”

Another way of looking at this is...

Children raised in a Southern Baptist home are more likely to vote 80% pro life, pro marriage and anti liberal.

Children raised Catholic are more likely to vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

Simple math would suggest that for 1000 babies raised Catholic, 540 will vote in line with Obama and the Dems. Meanwhile, if 500 babies are raised SBs, 400 will vote pro life, pro marriage and anti liberal.

Now granted, we can look at these numbers and say that SBs should give up contraceptives and have more kids.

Maybe instead of worrying about beating Protestants up about contraception, Catholics should worry more about raising their kids to live their lives more inline with complete Biblical teaching, so that they'd be less inclined to vote anti life stands as adults, and match the 80% voting record of SBs.

36 posted on 07/01/2012 4:54:54 AM PDT by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: Pollster1

So you are suggesting that the southern baptists couples that choose contraception are also choosing to abort their children, that they are liberal, and that the southern baptists are better off if they don’t have children?

Nonsense. We have here - Southern baptist conservatives who love freedom and hate Obama, right here, saying that God won’t mind if they contracept. That’s a problem - for their family and for the Southern Baptists.

My point is this - contraception originated with the Episcopalians at the Lambeth conference in ‘34, where they affirmed that contraception was a-ok. It has since spread to most denominations, including the Southern Baptists.

I can quote southern baptist leaders from the 19th century who see contraception as a grave sin.

This isn’t about what Catholics believe or do, this is about what should the Southern Baptists believe? Should they be taking their inspiration from the episcopalians?


37 posted on 07/01/2012 5:01:01 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: RaisingCain
Scripture is lost on linguistic literalists.

as I would like to see him in heaven.

Provided you make it there yourself which you won't know until your particular judgment.

38 posted on 07/01/2012 5:03:10 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: JCBreckenridge

The world and how many babies people have in other nations?

I’m trying to save pro-life, conservative America from Catholic liberalism, an effort that we should all be sharing.


39 posted on 07/01/2012 5:05:41 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12
Roman Catholics vote 54% for Obama’s abortion, gay marriage, and anti-conservatism.

You conveniently omitted the caveat "based on unscientific and unreliable exit polls employing suspect, at best, methodology."

40 posted on 07/01/2012 5:07:14 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Notwithstanding
Jimmy Carter = Southern Baptist and extreme liberal

Nancy Pelosi
Ted Kennedy
John Kerry
Joe Biden
Tom Daschle

We could play this game all day, going tit for tat.

41 posted on 07/01/2012 5:10:59 AM PDT by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: ansel12

Answer the question, please. Do you believe that overpopulation is a significant problem in the world today?


42 posted on 07/01/2012 5:14:43 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

It is your job to go on a site of conservative political activists and political junkies and explain to them that this is all an illusion.

Explain to freerepublic that almost everything they know about voting and politics, demographics, sex, race, religion, states, education, income, isn’t usable.


43 posted on 07/01/2012 5:15:52 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord SHALL BE SAVED.”

No maybe
No might be

SHALL BE

44 posted on 07/01/2012 5:17:02 AM PDT by mountn man (Happiness is not a destination, its a way of life.)
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To: JCBreckenridge

I’m an American.

Let me ask you if you think that liberal voters are bad, and conservative voters are good?


45 posted on 07/01/2012 5:18:11 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: JCBreckenridge
So you are suggesting that the southern baptists couples that choose contraception are also choosing to abort their children, that they are liberal, and that the southern baptists are better off if they don’t have children?

I did not intend to suggest that, and I apologize for failing to make myself clear. I was suggesting that those who commit abortion are eliminating their own children and eventually their own warped values. I did not intend to comment on birth control at all.

46 posted on 07/01/2012 5:24:01 AM PDT by Pollster1 (A boy becomes a man when a man is needed - John Steinbeck)
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To: Pollster1

“I did not intend to comment on birth control at all.”

The title of the thread is ‘Baptists and Birth control’.

Are you sure you’re in the right thread?


47 posted on 07/01/2012 5:25:55 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: ansel12

“Let me ask you if you think that liberal voters are bad, and conservative voters are good?”

You first.

Do you believe that overpopulation is a significant problem in the world today?


48 posted on 07/01/2012 5:27:19 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: JCBreckenridge

Well, this is freerepublic, so someone that defends liberalism could feel exposed.

As far as overpopulation, I don’t think that America is underpopulated at all.

As an American I know that we need to stop the left, for me that means trying to turn leftist voters and sympathizers into conservatives.

You were asked “Let me ask you if you think that liberal voters are bad, and conservative voters are good?”.


49 posted on 07/01/2012 5:36:56 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

So then you do believe over population is a problem. Thank you. That explains why you support contraception. Are you aware of a fellow named Thomas Malthus?

“Let me ask you if you think that liberal voters are bad, and conservative voters are good?”.

Truthfully? I believe that conservativatism is correct.

I also believe that Conservativism expressly teaches that human nature is corrupt and sinful. This is why we need checks and balances, and why we must be concerned about the preservation of liberty.

Ergo - no, I believe we are all fallen and are in need of redemption and Christ.


50 posted on 07/01/2012 5:44:58 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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