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Following-Truth:5 Facts That Must Be Ignored BeforeAccusing CatholicsOf “Mary Worship”[Cath & Open]
Following the Truth.com ^ | Jun 19th, 2012 | Gary Zimak

Posted on 07/03/2012 4:52:59 PM PDT by Salvation

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To: RaisingCain; aMorePerfectUnion
We are made KINGS, overcomers of the world and greatly preferred by God, and PRIESTS, a Holy Order, washed in His blood (and not of ourselves), with direct access to God’s throne. There is, therefore, no need for any extra mediator between us and Christ. Christ is the sole mediator between us and God. We are the Saints, and we are equal to any Saint in heaven, with all the same rights and privileges.

Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?

101 posted on 07/05/2012 2:49:55 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

“Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?”


Tell me why it was necessary for John to eat a book, which would be honey in his mouth but bitter in his stomach, which he did eat, literally, within the same vision?

Because it is symbolism, types, part of the vision describing the heavenly court, where the prayers of the saints are continually given importance and power before the throne of God. Incense, in Psalms, is made to symbolize prayer that continually wafts before the Lord. Psa 141:2 Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.

Unless you think that my prayers get turned into incense that 24 elders, for whatever reason, must deliver to an omniscient and omnipotent God.

Your casual interpretation is some weak support centuries of Roman dogma, which just a few sentences later is declared invalid upon the cold, clean fact that all believers are made Kings and Priests in His sight, and that our prayers are precious and worthy to be heard by the great God.

Here is Christ’s explanation of prayer to our Father, who gives good gifts to those who ask Him. Quite simple, really:

Luk 11:2-13 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. (3) Give us day by day our daily bread. (4) And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. (5) And he said unto them, Which of you shall have a friend, and shall go unto him at midnight, and say unto him, Friend, lend me three loaves; (6) For a friend of mine in his journey is come to me, and I have nothing to set before him? (7) And he from within shall answer and say, Trouble me not: the door is now shut, and my children are with me in bed; I cannot rise and give thee. (8) I say unto you, Though he will not rise and give him, because he is his friend, yet because of his importunity he will rise and give him as many as he needeth. (9) And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. (10) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (11) If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? (12) Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? (13) If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Joh 16:23-28 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full. (25) These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father. (26) At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: (27) For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. (28) I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Imagine that, Jesus will deliver our prayers to the Father! How novel an idea! I suppose Mary has been wasting her time, hearing and bothering with those millions of daily Catholic prayers to her! Little did she know that our advocate, all along, is Christ Himself!

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Out of all the miracles in my own life I have seen, not one was ever given to me my Mary or some random Saint.


102 posted on 07/05/2012 3:25:50 AM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: verga

Name the 24 elders please.


103 posted on 07/05/2012 7:54:29 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: RaisingCain

Yes or no did the elders act as Mediators delivering prayers to God on behalf of others?


104 posted on 07/05/2012 8:02:05 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

You are making a hasty and wrong conclusion. I affirmed Jesus is God, but the issue remains the use careful use of titles. Thus Jesus is called Lord and God. Again, Lord primarily refers to what He is as ruler, and can be applied to mortals and the Messiah after the Jewish expectation, but God denotes His being, and Mary is never termed Mother of God, though again, that may be technically allowed in a sense (as would Mary’s mother being the grandmother of God by extension, and so on).

Likewise, Co-redemptrix can be technically allowed in a sense, but both are unnecessary, and easily infer more as part of the excess extrapolated exaltation of Mary, as overall seen here. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2841954/posts?page=187#187


105 posted on 07/05/2012 8:33:21 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a damned+morally destitute sinner,+trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: dartuser
Name the 24 elders please.

What a great example of the logical fallacy of the "red herring." Yes or no did the elders act as Mediators delivering prayers to God on behalf of others?

106 posted on 07/05/2012 8:38:23 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: daniel1212
Two questions:1) Is Jesus God, Yes or no?

2)Did Mary give Birth to Him, Yes or no?

Notice I am not in any way asking if Mary is divine Clearly she is not, and there is not a sane rational person that in any way thinks she is. I am not asking if she contributed to His humanity, or his divinity. I am asking if she gave birth to the second person of the Trinity that we all know as Jesus.

107 posted on 07/05/2012 8:44:34 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

“Okay then explain to me why it was necessary for the 24 elders to deliver prayers to God?”

verga, I don’t think there is an answer to your question, other than God chose it to be that way in the end times. This doesn’t make them mediators. It may just give emphasis to God treasuring as a sweet aroma, the prayers of His saints - who are later identified as those martyred and already departed from the earth.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” I Timothy 2:5

You will have to overcome that clear statement to argue there are other mediators.

Blessings to you.


108 posted on 07/05/2012 9:23:42 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: Petrosius

“Saul was using a witch to communicate with a spirit. This is quite different than asking someone to pray to God for you. The point remains that the dead can hear our prayers.”

Your 3rd sentence is directly contradicted by the first two. You admit that the example of Saul and the witch is not an example of prayer. Therefore, the proper conclusion is that it tells us nothing of whether the dead can hear our prayers.


109 posted on 07/05/2012 10:12:54 AM PDT by Boogieman
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To: verga
What a great example of the logical fallacy of the "red herring."

What a great example of avoiding the question.

Logical fallacy? You moan and complain in another post that we non-Catholics incorrectly interpret the scriptures ... and then when I ask a simple question that challenges your interpretation, you turn it around on me to avoid the question.

My simple question is to help you see that your interpretation of the 24 elders is wrong; exegetically, escatologically, Biblically ... the events in Revelation 4 are still future.

... so my question stands

... name the 24 elders. Who are they?

110 posted on 07/05/2012 10:26:04 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: Mmogamer
I’ve often wondered how you could pray to someone who has died, how could they hear you in Heaven?

That depends on whether or not you believe that these people are alive in Christ or not.

If you believe that Christians who have passed from this world are alive in Christ, then asking them for their prayers is no different from asking any loved one for their prayers.

If you believe that they are dead for all time, as the pagans did, then it makes no sense at all.

111 posted on 07/05/2012 11:10:29 AM PDT by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
verga, I don’t think there is an answer to your question, other than God chose it to be that way in the end times. This doesn’t make them mediators. It may just give emphasis to God treasuring as a sweet aroma, the prayers of His saints - who are later identified as those martyred and already departed from the earth.

This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.

“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus...” I Timothy 2:5 You will have to overcome that clear statement to argue there are other mediators. Blessings to you.For some reason Protestants leave off the rest of the sentence. 1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time.

When you look at the entire sentce it is not saying that Jesus is the only mediator, it is actually saying that Jesus was the single mediator that died for our sins. There can be otehr mediators, but none of them was able to die for our sins.

If you are corrct then why did Paul ask so many others to pray for him:

1Th 5:25 Brothers, pray for us.

2Th 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may speed ahead and be honored, as happened among you,

Heb 13:18 Pray for us, for we are sure that we have a clear conscience, desiring to act honorably in all things.

Col 4:3 At the same time, pray also for us, that God may open to us a door for the word, to declare the mystery of Christ, on account of which I am in prison--

2Co 1:11 You also must help us by prayer, so that many will give thanks on our behalf for the blessing granted us through the prayers of many.

Every person that read those words and acted on them were mediators, jsut as when your pastor asks you to pray for the sick of your congregation, yu are a mediator.

112 posted on 07/05/2012 12:34:29 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: dartuser
See my post #112, This is speaking of an ongoing practice, and the identity of the elders is of no consequence, hence me calling it a "red herring."

Now answer my questions: 1) Is Jesus God? 2) Did Mary give birth to him?

We all know that a Protestants refusal to answer these simple questions is because protestants know that this proves that Mary is the Mother of God, and none of you could bear to admit that the Catholic Church is correct about anything.

113 posted on 07/05/2012 12:41:24 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga
the identity of the elders is of no consequence

Not only is the identity of the elders of great consequence, but the timeframe for this scene in heaven is of critical importance. You yourself claim that these are mediators for your prayers ... dont you think you better be sure they are up there listening? Dont you want to know who you are communicating with?

Let me give you a hint: ... The 24 elders whom you are praying to are not there yet, because Revelation 5 has not happened yet!

Now answer my questions: 1) Is Jesus God? 2) Did Mary give birth to him?

We all know Many Catholics think ... that a Protestants refusal to answer these simple questions is because protestants know that this proves that Mary is the Mother of God,

Not really, what we object to is the gross logic that goes like ...

1. Jesus is God
2. Mary gave birth to Him
3. Mary was the mother of God
4. And because she is the mother of God, that implies she was immaculately conceived, lived a sinless life, remained a virgin, assumed bodily into heaven, is now the Queen of Heaven, Co-redemptrix, performs miracles, gives visions, appears to little children, ... and on and on and on ...

Yes, Jesus is God ... and yes, Mary gave birth to him ... and that makes Mary Jesus' mother. Duh ... your mom gave birth to you ... therefore she is your mother.

This is not some kind of mystical revelation that is suppose to reorder my interpretation of the Scriptures. Mary is the mother of Jesus just like your mom is the mother of you. She gave birth to you. I acknowledge that you are not God so yes there is a difference; an angel didn't come to your mom and make a pronouncement to her that she was giving birth to you in 9 months.

Mary was God's obedient servant ... like Moses, like Daniel, like Jeremiah, like John the Baptist, like Peter, like Paul ... they all did what God instructed them to do ... and because of her obedience she still is called blessed.

But all these other things that have been made up about her ... they all go way beyond the text of the Scriptures.

Last chance on the elder question ... my patience is up.

114 posted on 07/05/2012 3:01:51 PM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: verga

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.


115 posted on 07/05/2012 3:05:51 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.


116 posted on 07/05/2012 3:06:11 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.


117 posted on 07/05/2012 3:06:31 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today.”

Oh? Nothing in the context indicates that in the least. If that were so, you could also look out your window and see Gods righteous Trumpet judgements falling on the earth.

Nor is there any indication this happens more than one time.


118 posted on 07/05/2012 3:06:38 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: dartuser; verga
1. Jesus is God
2. Mary gave birth to Him
3. Mary was the mother of God


"But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"
--Elizabeth, cousin of Mary, wife of a Jewish priest.

To whom would a wife of a Jewish priest be referring, especially in the context established by the gospel writer, when she said, "my Lord"?
119 posted on 07/05/2012 3:10:06 PM PDT by aruanan
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To: verga

[Apologies for my multiple posts. Connection problems]

“This explains part of the problem. You ar4e under the (mistaken) impression that this is happening at the end times. This is occuring right now today. “

Everything after Revelation 4:1 is prophecy about the future...

4:1 After these things I looked, and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: “Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.”


120 posted on 07/05/2012 5:16:12 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: dartuser
Let me give you a hint: ... The 24 elders whom you are praying to are not there yet, because Revelation 5 has not happened yet! And your proof is whqat exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence. Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Last chance on the elder question ... my patience is up.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriiously doubt it.

121 posted on 07/05/2012 5:20:03 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

“When you look at the entire sentce it is not saying that Jesus is the only mediator, it is actually saying that Jesus was the single mediator that died for our sins. There can be otehr mediators, but none of them was able to die for our sins.”

Jesus Christ indeed is the mediator of the New Covenant.

... If you are going to make the argument that others are mediators, please show where the Greek word for mediator is used of another Christian, of of an angel.
... I know of nowhere in the Scriptures that says Mary or a departed believer, or an angel prays for us.

... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel. We do have the example in It’s a Wonderful Life, but of course, that isn’t Scripture.

... It is also worth noting here that CHRIST Himself continues to pray for us.
... It is also worth noting that the Holy Spirit intercedes for us when we don’t know what to pray.

Blessings to you.


122 posted on 07/05/2012 5:20:48 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Everything after Revelation 4:1 is prophecy about the future... 4:1 After these things I looked, and there was a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet said: “Come up here so that I can show you what must happen after these things.”

There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.

123 posted on 07/05/2012 5:22:45 PM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: verga

“There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Oh, sure. To do so though, you have to forget all about the fulfillment of the book of Daniel, and other prophets, you have to make it all allegory or all symbolic.

You also have to ignore everything it foretells, like a new heaven and new earth (with no sea), etc.

Best.


124 posted on 07/05/2012 6:53:06 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: verga

“There are quite a few scholars that read this as being part of the destruction of Jerusalem.”

Oh, sure. To do so though, you have to forget all about the fulfillment of the book of Daniel, and other prophets, you have to make it all allegory or all symbolic.

You also have to ignore everything it foretells, like a new heaven and new earth (with no sea), etc.

Best.


125 posted on 07/05/2012 6:53:13 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel.

Did you miss ALL of the quotes from Paul in post #112.

126 posted on 07/06/2012 3:12:00 AM PDT by verga (Every single cult leader believes in home schooling....Think about it.)
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To: aruanan
To whom would a wife of a Jewish priest be referring, especially in the context established by the gospel writer, when she said, "my Lord"?

The coming Messiah ...

127 posted on 07/06/2012 4:58:38 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: verga
And your proof is what exactly? Seriously you have made this bold proclamation, yet have given no evidence.

It is hardly a bold proclamation. Look at the details of the text starting in Rev 4.

Rev 4:4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads.

So there are 24 thrones (first clue) and on those thrones 24 elders (second clue) are clothed in white garments (third clue) and golden crowns on their heads (forth clue).

The 24 elders are pictured sitting on thrones and what does a throne symbolize? Authority to reign. When the king sits on his throne that is an outward symbol of his reign. There are several places where Christ has disclosed to the NT writers that Christians will rule and reign with Christ. The immediate context of Revelation gives a good one ...

Rev 2:26-27 ... In His letter to the church of Thyatira He says ...

26 He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, to him I will give authority over the nations; 27 and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;

Christ mentions that as a reward for overcoming ... He will give to some the authority to rule with Him ... this also gives credibility to the 24 elders being humans as the Bible does not ever depict angels ruling or sitting on thrones.

First clue covered ... second clue ... they are called elders. The greek term is presbuteroi, which is never used to refer to angels, but always to men. It is used to speak of older men in general but specifically of rulers (both of Israel in the OT and church leaders in the NT).

Third clue, white garments are representative of believers clothing. In the immediate context, Christ urges those in Sardis to "buy from Me . . . white garments so that you may clothe yourself." Rev 3:18. Also see Rev. 3:4 that depicts worthy believers as walking with Him in white garments.

Forth clue ... the golden crowns upon their heads. Crowns are depicted in the NT as rewards for faithful service. Paul mentions about 7 different crowns presented to believers at the judgment seat of Christ. One example is 2 Tim 2:8

8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

When will Paul get this crown ... on judgment day when he stands before Jesus Christ, as we all will do. Has the judgment seat of Christ happened yet? No ... that will happen in the future after He comes again.

Now do you see why the events in Rev 4-5 are still future? The 24 elders are human believers in Jesus Christ who have been redeemed, who are clothed in white garments, and who have already received their rewards, and who are already ruling and reigning with Him.

Therefore this part of the vision that John had (Rev 4-5) depicts events that are still future, since the judgment seat of Christ has not happened yet for the elders to receive their rewards.

Given that you beleive in SS my interpretation is at least as valid as yours.

Except we are trying to determine truth, and both our interpretations cannot be valid if we are seeking the truth.

I would hope that this means you will drop this but I seriously doubt it.

Since you have taken three different opportunities to ignore my question, I will drop it ...

128 posted on 07/06/2012 6:10:51 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: verga

“... I think it is also worth your inquiry to find a direct command to Christians that they should pray to anther Christian or angel.

“Did you miss ALL of the quotes from Paul in post #112.

No. I read them all. We should invite other believers to pray for us. That does not make them “mediators” as the Bible uses the word. It makes them friends who come alongside.

Before you tell me that praying to departed saints is equal to asking a believer you know to pray for you, please note that the earth-bound believer can hear you, assuredly. The Scriptures never command or teach us to pray to a departed saint - nor do they indicate that the blessed departed saint can hear us.

Now, believe whatever you will. I’ve had a discussion to point out that the belief of praying to saints is without Biblical foundation and is made up out of whole cloth.

You can go boldly into the presence of God yourself and ask anything according to His will and He hears you and answers. You have Jesus Christ interceding for you. The Holy Spirit is praying for you, even when you don’t know how or what to pray.


129 posted on 07/06/2012 6:50:54 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion ("I'm comfortable with a Romney win." - Pres. Jimmy Carter)
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To: RaisingCain
Because it is symbolism, types, part of the vision describing the heavenly court, where the prayers of the saints are continually given importance and power before the throne of God. Incense, in Psalms, is made to symbolize prayer that continually wafts before the Lord.

I don't think you understand symbolism here. Symbolism represents an underlying reality. The prayers are not wafting - they are being carried. The symbol holding the prayers could have been an urn, a chalice, or plate. Whatever the symbol, the action of the prayers being carried by the elders is the reality.

Christ was the vine, we are the branches. The reality is that we cannot (as branches) live without the vine. The symbol could have been a tree. Christ is the door (The symbol could have been a gate)- but we can’t get there without Christ opening the entrance.

The symbolic image was the vessel, not that fact and reality that the elders were taking the prayers to God.

130 posted on 07/08/2012 2:28:15 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: boatbums; James Mott; Salvation
" The fallacious reasoning is in concluding that LEADERS of an organization do NOT represent that group. "

That is not the point.    The point is, should an entire group be found responsible and guilty for the sins of a very tiny minority of that group?    In other words, do you find the group Judas Iscariot was part of (including Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles, as well as Jesus Christ Himself), responsible for and guilty of the sins committed by Judas Iscariot, just because they were all part of his group?

(None of us know for sure what would have happened to Judas if he had repented, but we do know what later happened to Saul/Paul who was a major participant in a killing rampage against the Church, and Jesus asked him why he was persecuting Jesus.    (See Acts Chapters 7, 8, and 9.)   Paul later became an apostle himself.)

(By the way, many of the Bishops shown at that web site that James Mott provided have long since been removed from their responsibilities, including Egan and Weakland.    Do you believe that when someone is first accused of something they should be permanently fired as guilty without any investigation or due process to determine the veracity of the charges against them?)

Also, in reference to your post number "43", it sounds like you feel that Mary is not really special.

So, God picked only this one beautiful person - Mary - to be overshadowed by God the Holy Spirit and conceive in her womb Jesus Christ - God the Son while remaining a virgin, then to give birth to him, to nurse him, and raise him, and initiate his first recorded public miracle, and watch him die, and you do not think she was special?

God did not pick you boatbums, or me, or any of the other posters here, or any of the billions and billions and billions of other people who ever existed from the beginning of the human race to the present to do all these things, only Mary.    Do you seriously not find her to be a special, uniquely chosen person by God Almighty, for a singularly unique and special purpose, or are you just putting all of us on?

131 posted on 07/08/2012 8:29:08 PM PDT by Heart-Rest ("The Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth." (1 Timothy 3:15))
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Comment #132 Removed by Moderator

To: Heart-Rest
That is not the point. The point is, should an entire group be found responsible and guilty for the sins of a very tiny minority of that group? In other words, do you find the group Judas Iscariot was part of (including Peter, James, John, and all the other apostles, as well as Jesus Christ Himself), responsible for and guilty of the sins committed by Judas Iscariot, just because they were all part of his group?

My point was NOT that an individual within a group who does wrong makes all those within the group equally guilty. No, not at all. My point was only if that wicked person was being allowed to REMAIN in a leadership position within the group and no attempts were made BY the group to help the person come to repentance and "bring forth works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:20). Again, if Judas Iscariot had not hung himself and showed up the week after the resurrection, would the eleven have greeted him with hugs and kisses and thought it okay for Judas to remain as an Apostle? I really do not think they would have. Would Jesus have forgiven him? Sure, but wouldn't he have had to first confess to doing a grave wrong and genuinely determined to NOT repeat the same thing? The Apostles would have been rightfully blamed had they accepted an unrepentant Judas back into the group and that was really my only point.

Also, in reference to your post number "43", it sounds like you feel that Mary is not really special. So, God picked only this one beautiful person - Mary - to be overshadowed by God the Holy Spirit and conceive in her womb Jesus Christ - God the Son while remaining a virgin, then to give birth to him, to nurse him, and raise him, and initiate his first recorded public miracle, and watch him die, and you do not think she was special? God did not pick you boatbums, or me, or any of the other posters here, or any of the billions and billions and billions of other people who ever existed from the beginning of the human race to the present to do all these things, only Mary. Do you seriously not find her to be a special, uniquely chosen person by God Almighty, for a singularly unique and special purpose, or are you just putting all of us on?

It really depends upon your definition of "special". Do I believe Mary was a virgin who led a virtuous life? Yes. Do I believe Mary continued to exhibit strong faith throughout her life as the mother of our Savior? Absolutely! God would not have chosen a woman who could not have dealt with the trials and great responsibilities placed upon her. She was special in that way, of course. But was Mary a human being who was born with a sin nature like ALL mankind is apart from Jesus? I don't think there is anywhere in Scripture that says she was was immune from that. In fact, Scripture says ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Rom. 3:23). No exception was made other than Jesus who was sinless because he was God in the flesh. So Mary was set apart so that God would fulfill his promise to come into the world as a man. And Mary was also given a choice, was she not? She COULD have refused, but she didn't because God knows all things before they even happen. I'm sorry if you have taken my words to in any way disparage Mary, because I certainly do not. What I disparage is the myth, hype, legend and unscriptural glorification of Mary that, in some places, puts her above the Lord Jesus. I reject the many dogmas that have been created that encourage such deification of Mary and that place the grace of God under her authority to divvy out. I reject any doctrines that do not have Scriptural warrant, but this does not mean I don't think Mary is special. She is, but in the way that God makes all those special who he chooses to accomplish his will and who willingly, out of love and dedication to Him do as he commands them to. We are ALL blessed when God's will is done.

133 posted on 07/08/2012 11:13:15 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Salvation

I admire Mary. Mary will called blessed by all generations. Just as Job is called blessed (James 5:11). Just as all who are poor in spirit, thirsting after righteousness, etc, are called blessed (Matt 5). All are described by the same word that Mary uses of herself in the Magnificat in Luke 1:58.

Mary chose the opprobrium of others rather than to say “no” to God’s Spirit. She is a model for us.

Just as Job is a model for us.


134 posted on 07/08/2012 11:45:28 PM PDT by Chaguito
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