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Man Facing Jail For Hosting Home Bible Study
FoxNews Radio ^ | 7/6/2012 | Todd Starnes

Posted on 07/06/2012 8:17:04 PM PDT by Penn4God

A Phoenix man has been sentenced to 60 days in jail after he refused to stop hosting Bible studies in the privacy of his home – in violation of the city’s building code laws.

(Excerpt) Read more at radio.foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: 666; arizona; bible; biblestudy; homebiblestudy; jail; obama; secularism; worldisgoingbonkers
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When the government believes it has the right to shut down private bible studies, it is time for our silent Pastors and passive Christians to wake up and take a stand for what is right. Radical Secularism must be stopped before we have moved past the point of saving the U.S. and our God given freedoms. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer stated, " Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act"
1 posted on 07/06/2012 8:17:22 PM PDT by Penn4God
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To: Penn4God

Was he taking up a collection?


2 posted on 07/06/2012 8:22:12 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Penn4God

“Obama’s secularism is like an acid that burns through everything it touches. His poisonous ideology authorizes him not just to “separate church and state” but to dominate church and state. The goal of this control is to secularize everything, including religion itself.”
George Neumayr is a contributing editor to The American Spectator.
http://spectator.org/archives/2012/02/07/the-audacity-of-obamas-secular


3 posted on 07/06/2012 8:28:53 PM PDT by Penn4God (Secularism = acid that burns through everything it touches.)
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To: Penn4God

Why are Americans basically being attacked in their own homes for their beliefs? I bet if this were some kind of homsexual swingers party, it would have been okay.

I realize that on the right we have many individualists, but it is time to come together and get organized. If we cannot we will lose. The left is very, very organized and they are coming at hard working Americans from every direction.

Many of their tax exempt special interest groups are being financed with our money through government grants and other miscellaneous programs.

We need to come together with a new vision for America and road map for how to get there. We must have a cohesive plan in order to win the war of ideas.


4 posted on 07/06/2012 8:28:58 PM PDT by formosa (Formosa)
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To: Penn4God
From the story

“It came down to zoning and proper permitting,” said Vicki Hill, the chief assistant city prosecutor. “Any time you are holding a gathering of people continuously as he does — we have concerns about people being able to exit the facility properly in case there is a fire — and that’s really all this comes down to.”

“He built a structure that he said wasn’t a church — that is in fact — a church,” she said. “It’s a church.”

And the courts agreed — noting in a Jan. 4, 2010 ruling: “The state is not saying the Salmans can’t run a church or have worship services at the location. But the state is saying that if they do so, they must do it properly and in accord with fire and zoning codes.”

He has 4 acres, so it sounds like he has the room to accomodate the people - he is just not abiding by the zoning rules.

5 posted on 07/06/2012 8:30:53 PM PDT by Hodar (A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.- Burroughs)
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To: Hodar

Michael Salman · Western Theological Seminary
“I would like everyone to notice the statement of the Assistant Chief Prosecutor for the City. As long as we were using the building as a Gameroom we are O.K. It is when we start using it to host worship with our friends it is wrong. I would like everyone else to notice that the building was built in 2009 and we were told by the city in 2007 that even a Bible Study in a living room is a “Church”. To the city any religious gathering like a Passover Supper, Bible Study or any other religious gathering on a property makes the property a “Church.” I dare someone to ask Mrs. Hill what is the definition of a “Church”? We never hid the fact that we worship at my home and that we do what every other Christian does on Sunday and the inside of the building even looks like Christians gather in it. The fact is the City has no right to prohibit what my wife and I who gather privately with my family and friends unless they can show that our guest have caused a neighborhood nuisance, by traffic, parking or noise. They had no right since 2007 to tell me to stop having bible studies in my home and they had no right by the Fire Department to break up our Passover Supper with my family and friends. Please share!”


6 posted on 07/06/2012 8:32:24 PM PDT by Penn4God (Secularism = acid that burns through everything it touches.)
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To: Penn4God

The First Amendment is supposed to trump the building code if I am correct.


7 posted on 07/06/2012 8:34:23 PM PDT by Republican1795.
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To: Penn4God

Sounds like something you would read from Communist China.


8 posted on 07/06/2012 8:36:52 PM PDT by murron (Proud Mom of a Marine Vet)
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To: Penn4God; Sirius Lee; lilycicero; MaryLou1; glock rocks; JPG; Monkey Face; RIghtwardHo; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


9 posted on 07/06/2012 8:39:15 PM PDT by narses
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To: Penn4God

I hope the Rutherford Institute is aware of this, right down their alley.


10 posted on 07/06/2012 8:43:18 PM PDT by doc1019 (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Penn4God
Hill said the city became aware of the meetings after neighbors apparently complained about traffic congestion.

If traffic is becoming a problem, neighbors have a right to protest to the authorities regardless of whether it is a religious meeting or not.

11 posted on 07/06/2012 8:45:36 PM PDT by what's up
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To: Penn4God

Next thing known Christians can’t gather at a private home to celebrate Christmas.

Remember ther catacombs!


12 posted on 07/06/2012 8:52:48 PM PDT by One Name (Go to the enemy's home court and smoke his ass.)
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Comment #13 Removed by Moderator

To: Hodar

So what would happen if he just had a picnic for a few of his friends and they read the Bible while they were all gathered together. Our church has neighborhood prayer groups all over our city in private homes on a weekly basis. I also host a monthly girls night out at my home. Our group has grown to 26 so there are always lots of cars. Lots of our neighbors host weekly bridge game nights and books clubs. Don’t understand what the big deal is. And we have an HOA.


14 posted on 07/06/2012 8:56:04 PM PDT by Grams A (The Sun will rise in the East in the morning and God is still on his throne.)
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To: what's up

Then the people causing the parking congestion should have been cited for parking violations.


15 posted on 07/06/2012 8:56:57 PM PDT by doc1019 (Voting for the lesser of two evils is still voting for evil.)
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To: Penn4God
"He and his wife have been hosting Bible studies on their 4.6 acre property since 2005. The gatherings were originally attended by as many as 15 people."

It is NONE of the governments business what this man and his guests do in the privacy of his home. He is not on City property, he is on his his own property, it belongs to him. Private property rights are the core of freedom.

Makes me sick to hear the death rattles of liberty every day.

16 posted on 07/06/2012 8:58:39 PM PDT by GregoTX (Federalist)
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To: murron
Sounds like something you would read from Communist China.

or Saudi Arabia.

Sharia Law coming to a city near you soon...if Obama is re-elected.

17 posted on 07/06/2012 9:06:27 PM PDT by citizencon
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To: Penn4God

I’d love to see this happen with a casual grouping of Obama’s muslim buddies. I’m pretty sure Obama would step in and award the informal “mosque” a grant to furbish the place, and have Holder defend them in court on the taxpayer dime.


18 posted on 07/06/2012 9:13:28 PM PDT by risen_feenix
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To: Penn4God
The Alliance Defense Fund is based in Phoenix suburbs:

Alliance Defense Fund
15100 N. 90th Street
Scottsdale, AZ 85260

Local: 480-444-0020

http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/LegalHelp

*********

These guys will be all over this like white on rice...
...on a paper plate...
....with a glass of whole milk...
...in a snowstorm!

Just sayin'

19 posted on 07/06/2012 9:17:18 PM PDT by Wings-n-Wind (The main things are the plain things!)
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To: Grams A

This has apparently been going on frequently for years - I can sympathize with the neighbors. If he wants to host crowds weekly, then he must abide by the rules. It doesn’t matter if this is bible study, knitting club, Hot Rod show - I’m sure that most people wouldn’t mind an occassional crowd down the street - but every week, since 1998 is a bit excessive.

All he has to do, is abide by the same rules that other public buildings have to abide by.


20 posted on 07/06/2012 9:19:08 PM PDT by Hodar (A man can fail many times, but he isn't a failure until he begins to blame somebody else.- Burroughs)
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To: Penn4God

Now if he was running an Islamic maddrassa, an NEA condom distribution location, a black panther training camp, ACORN get-out-the-vote seminars, an SEIU union organizing shop or NAMBLA mettings, he’d be fine.


21 posted on 07/06/2012 9:20:54 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (In honor of my late father, GunnerySgt/Commo Chief, USMC 1943-65)
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To: Hodar
He has 4 acres, so it sounds like he has the room to accomodate the people - he is just not abiding by the zoning rules.

Looked at AZ's Constitution; it's not very favorable to him as some other state's are (TN & NM come to mind).

Art II, Section 12.
The liberty of conscience secured by the provisions of this constitution shall not be so construed as to excuse acts of licentiousness, or justify practices inconsistent with the peace and safety of the state. No public money or property shall be appropriated for or applied to any religious worship, exercise, or instruction, or to the support of any religious establishment. No religious qualification shall be required for any public office or employment, nor shall any person be incompetent as a witness or juror in consequence of his opinion on matters of religion, nor be questioned touching his religious belief in any court of justice to affect the weight of his testimony.

22 posted on 07/06/2012 9:30:42 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Hodar
This has apparently been going on frequently for years - I can sympathize with the neighbors.

I would have agreed with you under normal circumstances, but he has a four acre lot and people probably just drive into his property and park their cars there.

23 posted on 07/06/2012 9:30:42 PM PDT by JimWayne
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To: Republican1795.
The First Amendment is supposed to trump the building code if I am correct.

The First Amendment is binding on Congress, not on the State Legislatures, nor the city councils. (Incorporation is a fraud; look into the [il]legitimacy of the 14th Amendment.)

24 posted on 07/06/2012 9:32:06 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: what's up
If traffic is becoming a problem, neighbors have a right to protest to the authorities regardless of whether it is a religious meeting or not.

Ah, so do complaints trump religious freedom?

25 posted on 07/06/2012 9:32:56 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark

Seems like complaints didn’t do anything to stop a victory mosque from being allowed at Ground Zero...


26 posted on 07/06/2012 9:39:54 PM PDT by butterdezillion
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To: butterdezillion
Seems like complaints didn’t do anything to stop a victory mosque from being allowed at Ground Zero...

True.
Maybe some animals really are more equal than others.

27 posted on 07/06/2012 9:42:09 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Penn4God

Jury Trial - Jury Nullifiacation


28 posted on 07/06/2012 10:08:12 PM PDT by BigEdLB (Now there ARE 1,000,000 regrets - but it may be too late.)
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To: OneWingedShark
"Maybe some animals really are more equal than others. "

The effin' pigs started wearing tuxedos all the way back in the thirties and using the entire education and indoctrination system to scout for good baby piggies since Carter.

No "maybe" about it, some animals are more equal than others but it's not a real problem.  If fact, it's all about sex so you must be a prude.
/sarc
29 posted on 07/06/2012 10:12:52 PM PDT by Rashputin (Only Newt can defeat both the Fascist democrats and the Vichy GOP)
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To: Rashputin

30 posted on 07/06/2012 10:24:49 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Penn4God

probably more like overzealous Code Enforcement than an attack on religious freedom


31 posted on 07/06/2012 10:35:42 PM PDT by KTM rider
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To: Penn4God

Just tell the authorities that you have a gathering of ‘undocumented workers’ being trained on how to apply for food stamps and disability.


32 posted on 07/06/2012 10:36:12 PM PDT by Darteaus94025
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To: Penn4God
The fact is the City has no right to prohibit what my wife and I who gather privately with my family and friends unless they can show that our guest have caused a neighborhood nuisance, by traffic, parking or noise. They had no right since 2007 to tell me to stop having bible studies in my home and they had no right by the Fire Department to break up our Passover Supper with my family and friends. Please share!”

He's right, the city has NO right to tell a private home owner what he can or cannot do in his own home. If he held a "family reunion" there and 100 people attended, could the city forbid that? We used to have a Bible study in my 700 sqf. apartment every Thursday and we had 35-75 people there regularly. We sat on the floor and otherwise took up every inch of the living room, but it was not as if people couldn't escape if they needed to. No neighbors complained about it because it was not rambunctious or noisy. This was in the late 70s to early 80s.

The first Christians had to meet secretly in homes, catacombs (underground burial sites) and wherever they could because of the state persecution. If we do nothing to stop it, the state will once again outlaw such assemblies. What's telling about all this is that if the guy had a Sunday and/or Monday football party every week with as many people attending, they wouldn't do anything about it! No one would try to unsafely stuff people in like sardines - they wouldn't come or stay if he did - but it sure looks like the city cares more about what is being done in his home than the number of people that come out.

33 posted on 07/06/2012 10:36:56 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: One Name

“Next thing known Christians can’t gather at a private home to celebrate Christmas.

Remember ther catacombs!”

~ ~ ~

Holy places of refuge during the Great Tribulation, it’s
coming. Trust God.

message to John Leary

Thursday, May 3, 2012: (Sts. Philip & James)

Jesus said: “My people, at times you receive criticism for talking about refuges where some say they are not in the Bible. At this point in time in non-communist countries you are not openly persecuted to the point of martyrdom for your faith. Yet in the Early Church, Christians were being martyred, so that they practiced their faith secretly in the CATACOMBS. Even the prophets were threatened with death because the people did not want to hear the prophet’s words of repentance for their sins. As a result Elijah hid in a cave at Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel to avoid being killed. As in this vision, I even told you that where necessary, My angels would carve out caves for your safe havens. I am giving you a message of hope during the tribulation that My angels will protect you at My refuges by making you invisible to your persecutors. You will have to leave your homes, if they are not refuges, so you can be led by your guardian angels to your safe havens. I will provide for your food and shelter, and My angels will defend you from the evil ones.”

http://www.johnleary.com/


34 posted on 07/06/2012 10:59:28 PM PDT by stpio
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To: Republican1795.
The First Amendment is supposed to trump the building code if I am correct.

If it doesn't, ask them if the 2nd Amendment does.

35 posted on 07/06/2012 11:04:41 PM PDT by Repeat Offender (1 if by land, 2 if by sea, 3 if by SCOTUS)
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To: Penn4God

Sad.


36 posted on 07/06/2012 11:06:41 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Penn4God

Sad.


37 posted on 07/06/2012 11:06:47 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Penn4God

Sad.


38 posted on 07/06/2012 11:06:50 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: johngrace

Remember ther catacombs!”

~ ~ ~

Before they come to chip you, take you off to the camps, in
the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ call on your guardian angels to guide you and your family to the places of refuge.

message to John Leary

Thursday, May 3, 2012: (Sts. Philip & James)

Jesus said: “My people, at times you receive criticism for talking about refuges where some say they are not in the Bible. At this point in time in non-communist countries you are not openly persecuted to the point of martyrdom for your faith. Yet in the Early Church, Christians were being martyred, so that they practiced their faith secretly in the CATACOMBS. Even the prophets were threatened with death because the people did not want to hear the prophet’s words of repentance for their sins. As a result Elijah hid in a cave at Mt. Carmel in Haifa, Israel to avoid being killed. As in this vision, I even told you that where necessary, My angels would carve out caves for your safe havens. I am giving you a message of hope during the tribulation that My angels will protect you at My refuges by making you invisible to your persecutors. You will have to leave your homes, if they are not refuges, so you can be led by your guardian angels to your safe havens. I will provide for your food and shelter, and My angels will defend you from the evil ones.”

http://www.johnleary.com/


39 posted on 07/06/2012 11:13:22 PM PDT by stpio
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To: Penn4God

Well, seeing he has 4.5 acres seems to ease the situation BUT if he has that much land and attracting enough people to cause the neighbors to P&M about the traffic and people, maybe everyone is missing the big picture.

If enough people want to ‘pray’ and defy the man written law etc it may scare the ‘powers that be’.

I get a laugh out of the same people that say Church and State should be seperated have no problem with a Denominational Church holding services in a Public School.
Now I am sure this is rent involved, BUT why should a private group be charged a fee to hold a meeting in a PUBLIC OWNED facility? - Other than utilities and janitorial etc...


40 posted on 07/06/2012 11:24:10 PM PDT by xrmusn (6/98 "Hopefully this administration is a "bad dream" - think the Newhart show.")
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To: Hodar
This has apparently been going on frequently for years - I can sympathize with the neighbors. If he wants to host crowds weekly, then he must abide by the rules. It doesn’t matter if this is bible study, knitting club, Hot Rod show - I’m sure that most people wouldn’t mind an occassional crowd down the street - but every week, since 1998 is a bit excessive.

I agree with you.

41 posted on 07/07/2012 12:33:03 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: Penn4God

Every Wednesday night our family would meet with other families at a church members house for our weekly Home Meeting. We might have 20 people and we comfortably filled every available seat in the house. Everyone brought something to eat and we ate like kings. The study of Christ’s teachings surpassed anything you could get at a church service. The most precious part of all of this was there was miraculous healing at these meetings. We saw people with intense memories of being sexually abused as children, released of their pain. We saw intense back pain instantly healed. And blood disorders completely healed. We learned the power of the Holy Spirit.

We learned that when the government puts bureaucratic obstacles in the way of God’s purposes, that the Lord will remove those obstacles if we ask Him to do so.


42 posted on 07/07/2012 12:52:55 AM PDT by jonrick46 (Countdown to 11-06-2012)
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To: Hodar

If he has 4 1/2 acres, same as I do, parking on his own property would be no problem...the town has a bug up its behind about something else...


43 posted on 07/07/2012 1:02:51 AM PDT by goat granny
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To: Penn4God
So, if the government is insisting his house is a church, does that mean he can stop paying taxes? ;)


44 posted on 07/07/2012 2:43:40 AM PDT by grateful
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To: Penn4God

When the government believes it has the right to shut down private bible studies, it is time for our silent Pastors and passive Christians to wake up and take a stand for what is right. Radical Secularism must be stopped before we have moved past the point of saving the U.S. and our God given freedoms. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer stated, “ Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act”


I believe this is the reason Paul wrote the below scripture,
the people who make and enforce the laws are not all of them bad people.

In fact many of them would look at it just the way you do
but they must obey the rules of the world rather than obey God, because they are of this world, unless they come out of her.

Gods people are not of this world and we are not running it, does that mean that we need to start liking what they do? God forbid.


Ephesians 6:12
12
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

The apostles were told by the authorities not to go around preaching the gospel, did they obey the authorities? no, they obeyed God and continued to preach the truth.

The price they paid was death, but they gained ever lasting life.


45 posted on 07/07/2012 4:28:52 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: what's up

If traffic is becoming a problem, neighbors have a right to protest to the authorities regardless of whether it is a religious meeting or not.


He and his wife have been hosting Bible studies on their 4.6 acre property since 2005. The gatherings were originally attended by as many as 15 people.

15 people on 4.6 acres ? that is big enough for a wall mart crowd, it is so easy to say that the neighbors were complaining and in many cases that may be true

but put with every thing else that is happening to our freedoms and it is easy to see, world tyranny.


46 posted on 07/07/2012 4:46:00 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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Call it “Koran” study. Government cowers in fear. Problem solved.


47 posted on 07/07/2012 4:54:29 AM PDT by 762X51
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To: gunsequalfreedom

This has apparently been going on frequently for years - I can sympathize with the neighbors. If he wants to host crowds weekly, then he must abide by the rules. It doesn’t matter if this is bible study, knitting club, Hot Rod show - I’m sure that most people wouldn’t mind an occassional crowd down the street - but every week, since 1998 is a bit excessive.

I agree with you.


Yes, we must put the laws of this world first, above every thing that is right and good. kill the Christians.


48 posted on 07/07/2012 4:57:58 AM PDT by ravenwolf
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To: Penn4God; lightman

Home Bible Study crime Ping.


49 posted on 07/07/2012 5:13:05 AM PDT by carriage_hill (All libs and most dems think that life is just a sponge bath, with a happy ending.)
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To: Hodar
According to Phoenix New Times, the property is 1.5 acres, not 4, and he's been hosting 40 people. I could see that creating issues with neighbors.

If parking is really the issue, he could have sidestepped it easily by working something out with a nearby business to allow worshipers to park in their parking lot on Sunday morning, and have two or three cars shuttle people over.

50 posted on 07/07/2012 5:19:05 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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