Posted on 07/10/2012 9:21:34 PM PDT by ReformationFan
An atheist has called out a Christian pastor for ignoring Bible passages condemning homosexuality to argue that gays can go to heaven.
"If Christians support that (putting LGBT individuals on equal footing), that's great, but it's going to happen in spite of what the Bible says, not because of it," said Hemant Mehta, also known as the Friendly Atheist, in a recent blog post.
Mehta was referring to commentary written by Pastor Craig Gross, founder of XXXchurch.com. Gross suggested that there will be gays in heaven just as there will be fat people and other sinners.
"Why do they (religious folks) believe that the gay guy goes to hell but the fat preacher who builds some of the largest churches in the world makes it to heaven?" he posed in his commentary.
"God loves gays and Jesus is for them. God loves the fat preacher. Homosexual activity and overeating are both sins – just like speeding, gossip, lying and cheating," Gross continued. "All are forgivable in Christ and, with the leading of the Holy Spirit, can be changed. Just remember that change does not happen overnight.
"When it comes to the Lord, it's nothing less than a journey of sanctification. And wherever you are at on that journey, I think there should be a place for you at church. Because there's probably one in heaven."
Mehta, author of I Sold My Soul on eBay, doesn't accept Gross' argument. While Gross quoted the Bible to make his case, Mehta couldn't get past the fact that the XXXchurch.com pastor missed the verses in Scripture that seem to undermine his argument.
The atheist pointed specifically to 1 Cor. 6:9-10: "Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
"[T]he Bible talks about how gay men (who don't change their ways) will most certainly NOT go to Heaven, directly contradicting what Gross writes in the rest of his essay," the Friendly Atheist pointed out.
Mehta told The Christian Post that while he applauds Christians who support the LGBT community, he says such believers can only do so by "taking a non-literal interpretation of the Bible" or by ignoring certain Bible passages.
"But it seems very hypocritical to me when a liberal Christian says the Bible is God's Word... but then simply ignores the verses that say untrue or un-politically-correct things," he said in an email to CP. "It's either God's Word or it's not. As an atheist, I believe it's not."
Gross, whose ministry helps those addicted to pornography, affirms that homosexuality is a sin but he told The Christian Post that "gays, fat people, addicts, murderers, all can get into heaven if they accept Christ."
"If you know Christ you go to heaven. If you know Christ and [you're] fat you still get in right?"
"He came to give us all life that none should perish," he stressed. "Coming to Christ does not mean all your struggles disappear."
But Matt Moore, a 23-year-old Christian blogger who struggles with homosexual temptations but chooses not to act on them, doesn't believe the grace of God covers the lifestyle of unrepentant, active sinful behavior.
He cited 1 John 3:4-6, among other passages: "Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."
"This all ultimately comes back to the question, what is the Christian life supposed to look like? The Scriptures are clear that those who are legitimate Children of God are radically transformed," said Moore. "They live a life of faith, in continual repentance from sin and they grow in holiness. But many voices from within the Church deny these truths by saying a simple profession of faith with the mouth is all it takes to be saved…… again, this sounds great, but not true. There is such thing as vain faith, and it will not save."
For Gross, he believes that churches need to approach the issue differently altogether.
"Jesus came for the sick not the healthy. Churches should be hospitals and not country clubs," he stated in an email to CP.
"The deal is we don't have doctors leading our hospitals; we have [fallen] patients who ... need ... help and that should be the mentality of our pastors that they don't have all the answers or problems solved either."
Reminds me of an argument I had with two on here.
I asked them if I would go to hell if I don’t identify as a Christian, even though I very strongly believe in Judeo-Christian values. They said I was damned; so then I start going on about if there’s beer and metal in Hell...
Chesterton on God and atheists:
"If there were no God,there would be no atheists."
My question to you would be, if you’re not a Christian then why would you want to be in heaven since it will be a place for eternal worship of the Lord Jesus Christ?
It’s better than being tortured for all of eternity.
I, of course, certainly agree with you on that. Why do you not identify as a Christian now?
Revelation 22:1-5 discussing heaven:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=revelation%2022:1-5&version=ESVUK
“Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants] will worship him. They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign for ever and ever.”
I believe those who are saved in Christ are still sinners yet forgiven by the Savior’s act of love on the cross. That includes homosexuals, prostitutes, even rapists and murderers. However those who never repent of their sins or acknowledge their acts as sin probably have never truly asked for Christ’s forgiveness in order to be saved.
IOW, you can be a sinner and yet be saved but you can’t deny your sin is sin and expect forgiveness. You can’t be marching in gay pride marches and refuse to believe your homosexuality is sin and still find salvation.
However, it is Christ that judges the hearts of all men and I defer to Him for the final say on each individual. Some ministers have said “When we get to Heaven, we’ll be surprised at who got in and who didn’t because we only know the outward man and not the confessed soul.”
Unless you're a masochist.
Even masochists have their limits.
Forthwith upright he rears from off the Pool
His mighty Stature; on each hand the flames
Drivn backward slope thir pointing spires, and rowld
In billows, leave i’th’ midst a horrid Vale.
Then with expanded wings he stears his flight
Aloft, incumbent on the dusky Air
That felt unusual weight, till on dry Land
He lights, if it were Land that ever burn’d
With solid, as the Lake with liquid fire;
Blake remarked of Milton,
” ... he was a true Poet, and of the Devil’s party without knowing it.”
I look at it this way: if Heaven is crowded, I have a shot. But if only Padre Pio, Thomas More and Joan of Arc are up there...
And yet, we are all called to be saints...
People like Pelosi.
It’s pretty much the same thing with bad police as far as I’m concerned. You get the ones that are Democrats, all for having children out of wedlock, abortions, things like that, well, it ruins it for the ones that believe in abstinence and life at conception.
Well put
A discussion such as that with an atheist is all pie in the sky nonsense anyway. Jesus himself never spoke or taught of a Heaven (like Asgarde or Mt. Olympus) nor Hell (like Hades). Those doctrines didn’t exist until the 5th century christian church decided to “adopt” them. Jesus (as well as Revelation thru heavy allegory) only ever speaks of the Restoration of the original Kingdom of Israel with G-d’s presence inhabiting the Temple Mount once again. Jesus (as well as Revelation thru heavy allegory) only ever speaks of the unlawful and unbelievers being consumed by G-d’s wrath-fire into nothingness, nonexistence. Pearly gates in golden clouds are awaiting no believer and “eternal damnation” in a cave of hellfire awaits no non-believer. There is only the Kingdom of G-d (a restored Israel) on earth in the Age-to-Come, or burnt to nonexistence by G-d’s Wrath. Re-read Jesus’ words again (with an OT handy) and you’ll find that he never once speaks of the pearly golden gates nor the hades-dimension of hellfire. There is a lot of allegory in the bible, you just can’t take it at face value. In addition, just because “the church” deemed it OK to “translate” some words into things like “hell” or “heaven” doesn’t automatically mean that what was said just becomes that. What Jesus teaches from the OT is a lot more beautiful and scary than the adoption of myths by the 5th century church that corrupts christianity to this day.
Please don’t let the likes of Pelosi and others like her keep you from the love of Christ. I highly recommend reading the Bible in its entirety(I did that for the first time 4 years ago) and if that task seems a bit daunting, then the New Testament in its entirety.
I also recommend trying out a Biblically orthodox, gospel preaching church in your area. Two good examples would be the Presbyterian Church in America(the denomination of the church I attend) and the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
You can see if there’s one near you at either
https://processor.pcanet.org/ac/directory/directory.cfm
or
http://www.lcms.org/search?q=church%20locator
God bless you.
What do you expect from a Pastor with the last name Gross?
I think I agree with you. This atheist is just trouble mongering (as they always do). His argument doesnt hold water.
Yeah, that’s a great argument.
OMG, lighten up. I can’t even take a guy seriously who says being homosexual is the same as being overweight or speeding.
Couple things here.
Read what is said about Lazarus.
Also, eternal damnation is real. God isn’t going to destroy the souls of the damned, they will simply be separated from him for all eternity. They will not get non-existance.
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