Skip to comments.PRE-EXISTENCE? Reason 22 [Another planetary pre-existence exist as Lds believe? Ex-Lds says 'no']
Posted on 07/16/2012 6:06:14 AM PDT by Colofornian
The Bible teaches life begins at conception, which means there is no pre-existence of life. Christ is the only Pre-Existent Being. According to the Bible, we were not in a pre-existence with Christ. There are no scriptures in the Bible stating we were in heaven and will one day return.
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.
"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
As a member I thought this meant God literally knew us as spirit children. However, I did not take into consideration that God is all knowing. He knows all because He created all...in the womb.
I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God.
If we were all living in the pre-existence with God in heaven, then God would have been my God before my mother's womb.
For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
"Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.
These Bible verses tell us life begins in our Mother's womb.
But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
1 Corinthians 15:45-47
And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.
The Bible also teaches Jesus is the only pre-existent Being ever and our existence began on earth.
Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.
The Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible = no pre-existence of man.
For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?
(this scripture does not even make sense to me)
Alma 18:28 and 34-36
And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?
Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true; And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God. Now when Ammon had said these words, he began at the creation of the world, and also the creation of Adam, and told him all the things concerning the fall of man, and rehearsed and laid before him the records and the holy scriptures of the people, which had been spoken by the prophets, even down to the time that their father, Lehi, left Jerusalem.
Other LDS scriptures disagree with the Bible and the Book of Mormon = man pre-existed.
LDS scriptures also state Jesus is Firstborn of the many pre-existent children of God and everyone pre-existed. Another LDS teaching is that we will return to live with Heavenly Father, because we lived with Him before we came to this earth. This is a major teaching of the LDS church, but it is not a Biblical teaching.
Ye were also in the beginning with the Father, that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;
Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;
Pearl of Great Price: Abraham 3:18
Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning, they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.
PoGP: Abraham 3:21-26
PoGP: Moses 5:16-41
The same scriptures state Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) lived together in the pre-existence and Jesus is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer.
And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;
PoGP: Abraham 3:27
And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.
Also see post MY SAVIOR, Reason 4 as well as the following websites.
My unanswered question was:
If the Bible teaches Christ is the only person to pre-exist, then why does the LDS church teach everyone pre-existed?
I was initially devastated when I received this answer that I did not live in a pre-existence, yet overjoyed to find the truth that Christ is the only person worthy enough to have pre-existed! He created me in my mother's womb. He knows everything about me...even the number of hairs on my head. I AM TRULY BLESSED!
Indeed, Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE who "pre-existed" from eternity past!!! (Which means those who claim otherwise have been "duped")
You see, the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?
Indeed. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So, per Mormonism, we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is -- reducing the uniqueness of Jesus Christ)
For more on Lds "scripture" D&C 93:29,33, see: Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]
That's sure some gooood religioning!
We need this arguing over the finer points of what God said... because we have it right and everyone else is wrong and so God hates them
Mormonism: The Scientology of the 19th Century
I agree wholeheartedly!
Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???
Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!
I agree wholeheartedly!
Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???
Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!
16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.
17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.
18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.
19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto themYe shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depthsthen shall it be written in the Lambs gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.
22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.
While the Mormon neo-gnostic conception of the pre-existence of the soul (or person) is heretical and absolute humbug, one cannot disprove it by contrasting the created human soul with the pre-eternal Word’s pre-existence of all creation. Many pious Christians reading the same Scriptures as the rest of us believed the (also erroneous) traductionist theory of the origin of the soul — that all human souls are ‘fragments’ of Adam’s soul, and thus, while not pre-existing the creation as Christ does, pre-existed our conception and birth. Indeed Blessed Augustine’s overly gloomy view of the Fall, termed “Original Sin” in contrast to the Orthodox notion of Ancestral Sin, was originally argued on the basis of traductionism.
Strangely the Latin Church and most protestants have embraced Augustine’s description of the Fall while rejecting his views on the origin of the soul, in favor of the Orthodox position that each soul is created anew at the moment of conception. It is, of course, this the creationist theory of the origin of the soul (yes that’s the correct term, predating the use of the same word vis-a-vis the origin of the universe by a good millenium plus) that you are arguing for, but the traductionists also had their proof-texts (esp. the one about Melchizedek receiving tithes from the patriarchs, and even including the one from Jeremiah you quoted), so the truth of the creationist view is seen in the tradition of the Church (both East and West) as the sound interpreter of the Scriptures, not in the Scriptures themselves.
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
o Based on entirely unevidenced stories
o Doctrines created and evolved over time, sometimes changing
o Known for their extreme desire for wealth
o Known for telling stories and lies
o Convicted and imprisoned for illegal activities
o Died during their trouble with the law
* Legal troubles
o Involved in many illegal activities, in many cases as part of official organization doctrine and practices
o Support destruction of outsiders, especially apostates (blood atonement, shunning, "fair game")
o Legal troubles led to changes in doctrine (at least on the surface, note polygamy and "fair game")
o Pre- and post-mortal existence
o Eternal progression (godhood, clear thetan)
o Only way to know truth is to experience it yourself
o Christianity, Bible only partly true
o Focus on thriving and happiness in present life rather than the afterlife or eternal life
o "Salvation" by works
o Give "milk" instead of "meat"
o Official endorsement of lying about or avoiding discussion of controversial doctrines, especially origin of man and key figures (Heavenly Father, Xenu, spirit children, thetans, etc)
o Levels can be achieved (Operating Thetan levels, temple Mormons, eternal progression, different kingdoms)
o Resistance is dismissed as proof/evidence of validity
o Persecution complex
o Label and treat opposition as evil enemies ("Antis", "Suppressive Persons")
1. Pre-existence of humanity:
LDS: All humans pre-existed in the spirit world before being born on earth.
Scientology: People were thetans in past lives + belief in reincarnation.
2. Unlimited potential for humans:
LDS: Heavenly Father (God) is an exalted man and LDS men may become gods with omnipotence and omniscience.
Scientology: People may become thetans again, regaining their freedom from matter, energy, space, and time (MEST).
3. Salvation only through their Church:
LDS: Exaltation and godhood only through the LDS Church.
Scientology: Recovering ones thetanhood only possible through Church of Scientology.
This thread drew over 400 replies:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology
L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.
According to Scientology, when a person dies or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)
Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts. LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...one mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."
If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.
Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.
* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.
Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)
BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?
Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect the third to be fulfilled also. (Source: Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264, 1892)
Wait a minute, I thought we were not supposed to point out how idiotic and flawed Mormonism is until after the election. I think the Democrats think we have some conspiracy in that regard but we have no taboo subjects. Racist socialist egomaniac friendly to Islam or a Mormon, interesting choice but a no brainer.
Thanks for not catering to censorship-by-frowning upon, as too many FR Romney supporters have bought into. Indeed, you'd think by the way some FREEPERs treat this as a "taboo subject" that truth is something for them to manipulate at will -- to turn off and on like a convenient lamp.
*sigh* you’ve really missed my point completely, haven’t you...
Seemed like a well though out discussion of a theological point.
There is a strain of thinking that all doctrine should be avoided since it causes strife between believers.
I disagree. If you don’t know what you believe and examine what you believe you will end up believing all manner of blasphemies.
“This is eternal livesto know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.”
But...but...but Elsie, i thought you and other mormon-fearing freepers said mormons weren’t worshipers of Christ?
Mormonoism = Scientology = Islam
It is distracting those here from the Core issues before us.
There are many other fine venues to take up this topic.
There are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi,
Atheists, Agnostics, and Seekers on this site.
They are here to engage in the Warfare against
Pervasive Socialism, Liberalism, Death Worship, and Chaos
Yes, Belief is core to who we are and how we see the world
Yes, Confusion in this regard corrupts our ability to understand, but
No, I'd take this discussion elsewhere...
There are far more than “finer points” of Biblical difference when it comes to the LDS.
As far as damning to hell there is no one here doing such, the Bible itself is clear on that issue.
You got God hates everyone from the start of this thread?
...That when you click on the main forum page of Free Republic...there's a certain colorful line highlighted by the host of this site:
Welcome to Free Republic, America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty conservatives (Notice, too who is listed first)
Sorry! But the host is unapologetic for his commitment -- and his site's commitment -- to God. Therefore...
...Buddhists who may not believe in a personal God;
...agnostics who may not honor a personal God;
...and atheists who completely ignore a personal God...
...would perhaps like the site owner to jettison God completely.
(Is that what you are suggesting he do?)
And Hindus? Like Mormons, they are polytheists. Are you also then suggesting that the site host change his "Welcome" to include "gods" plural? All in the name of inclusivity?
Is that not quite rude on your part?
I mean, really, hangnjudge, do you go into homes in your neighborhood, and upon seeing any reference to "God," do you -- in the name of multi-religionism -- ask them to change their craft decor'/display, their fridge magnets, their art, etc. -- all to reflect your all-religious-anythingISM??? Do you, upon finding a particular decor that mentions "God", whip out your sharpie and either add an "s" to "God" -- or delete it completely -- all in the name of being more "inclusive?"
Do you not realize how offensive that'd be to the host?
And why are you thereby being so discourteous to your site host here?
And why do you grade against the uniqueness of theism? Aren't theists allowed to simply be theists without the multi-culturalists, multi-religion-everythingISts and their apologist allies running amok and running interference on behalf of their various diverse gods?
[Well, you can at least go back to your campus profs & teachers -- those who taught you this version of "multi-culturalism" -- and tell them they earned an A+ for re-educating you and imbedding within you their particular secular concepts]
It was posted on the Religion thread. How is talking about docrtine distracting from the purpose of the religion thread?
Maybe you are suggesting the religion thread be eliminated?
mormons do not worship an eternal Christ, they worship a created christ who once was some guy who earned his status, but is insufficient to do anything of an eternal nature.
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