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PRE-EXISTENCE? Reason 22 [Another planetary pre-existence exist as Lds believe? Ex-Lds says 'no']
Journey Out of Lds.blogspot.com ^ | October 23, 2011

Posted on 07/16/2012 6:06:14 AM PDT by Colofornian

The Bible teaches life begins at conception, which means there is no pre-existence of life. Christ is the only Pre-Existent Being. According to the Bible, we were not in a pre-existence with Christ. There are no scriptures in the Bible stating we were in heaven and will one day return.

Genesis 2:7

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Jeremiah 1:5

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

As a member I thought this meant God literally knew us as spirit children. However, I did not take into consideration that God is all knowing. He knows all because He created all...in the womb.

Psalm 22:10

I was cast upon You from birth. From My mother's womb You have been My God.

If we were all living in the pre-existence with God in heaven, then God would have been my God before my mother's womb.

Psalm 139:13

For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.

Isaiah 49:1

"Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.

These Bible verses tell us life begins in our Mother's womb.

Matthew 10:30

But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.

1 Corinthians 15:45-47

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

The Bible also teaches Jesus is the only pre-existent Being ever and our existence began on earth.

John 8:58

Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."

Colossians 1:17

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

The Book of Mormon agrees with the Bible = no pre-existence of man.

Jacob 4:9

For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

(this scripture does not even make sense to me)

Alma 18:28 and 34-36

And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true; And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God. Now when Ammon had said these words, he began at the creation of the world, and also the creation of Adam, and told him all the things concerning the fall of man, and rehearsed and laid before him the records and the holy scriptures of the people, which had been spoken by the prophets, even down to the time that their father, Lehi, left Jerusalem.

Other LDS scriptures disagree with the Bible and the Book of Mormon = man pre-existed.

LDS scriptures also state Jesus is Firstborn of the many pre-existent children of God and everyone pre-existed. Another LDS teaching is that we will return to live with Heavenly Father, because we lived with Him before we came to this earth. This is a major teaching of the LDS church, but it is not a Biblical teaching.

D&C 93:23

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father, that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

D&C 93:29-33

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Pearl of Great Price: Abraham 3:18

Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning, they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

PoGP: Abraham 3:21-26

lds.org/scriptures/pgp/abr/

PoGP: Moses 5:16-41

lds.org/scriptures/pgp/moses/5

The same scriptures state Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) lived together in the pre-existence and Jesus is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer.

D&C 93:21

And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

PoGP: Abraham 3:27

And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

Also see post MY SAVIOR, Reason 4 as well as the following websites.

LDSvideo.org #23

ldsvideo.org/2011/06/preexistance-and-afterlife.html

carm.org

carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/did-we-exist-god-we-were-born-earth

My unanswered question was:

If the Bible teaches Christ is the only person to pre-exist, then why does the LDS church teach everyone pre-existed?

I was initially devastated when I received this answer that I did not live in a pre-existence, yet overjoyed to find the truth that Christ is the only person worthy enough to have pre-existed! He created me in my mother's womb. He knows everything about me...even the number of hairs on my head. I AM TRULY BLESSED!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Ministry/Outreach; Other non-Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: inman; kolob; lds; mormonism; preexistence
An ex-Mormon testimony: My unanswered question was: If the Bible teaches Christ is the only person to pre-exist, then why does the LDS church teach everyone pre-existed? I was initially devastated when I received this answer that I did not live in a pre-existence, yet overjoyed to find the truth that Christ is the only person worthy enough to have pre-existed! He created me in my mother's womb. He knows everything about me...even the number of hairs on my head. I AM TRULY BLESSED!

Indeed, Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE who "pre-existed" from eternity past!!! (Which means those who claim otherwise have been "duped")

You see, the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?

Indeed. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So, per Mormonism, we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is -- reducing the uniqueness of Jesus Christ)

For more on Lds "scripture" D&C 93:29,33, see: Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]

1 posted on 07/16/2012 6:06:22 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Yes! Let's argue about semantics and nuances of the wording of things in The Bible, and damn to hell anyone who does not think it means what I think it means!!

That's sure some gooood religioning!

We need this arguing over the finer points of what God said... because we have it right and everyone else is wrong and so God hates them

2 posted on 07/16/2012 6:13:23 AM PDT by Mr. K (OBAMA MUST BE STOPPED ROMNEY/GINGRICH)
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To: Colofornian

Mormonism: The Scientology of the 19th Century


3 posted on 07/16/2012 6:17:57 AM PDT by Dr. Thorne (Don't vote for anyone who worked for Goldman Sachs)
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To: Mr. K
Yes! Let's argue about semantics and nuances of the wording of things in The Bible, and damn to hell anyone who does not think it means what I think it means!!

I agree wholeheartedly!

Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???

Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

4 posted on 07/16/2012 6:28:16 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Mr. K
Yes! Let's argue about semantics and nuances of the wording of things in The Bible, and damn to hell anyone who does not think it means what I think it means!!

I agree wholeheartedly!

Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???

Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!


The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 


 

 16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in amarriage; but are appointed angels in bheaven, which angels are ministering cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

 17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are aangels of God forever and ever.

 18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

 19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and beverlasting covenant, and it is csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s gBook of Life, that he shall commit no hmurder whereby to shed innocent iblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the kseeds forever and ever.

 20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be bgods, because they have call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

 21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

 22For astrait is the gate, and narrow the bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

 23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that awhere I am ye shall be also.

 24This is aeternal lives—to bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

 25aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.


5 posted on 07/16/2012 6:29:09 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: Colofornian

While the Mormon neo-gnostic conception of the pre-existence of the soul (or person) is heretical and absolute humbug, one cannot disprove it by contrasting the created human soul with the pre-eternal Word’s pre-existence of all creation. Many pious Christians reading the same Scriptures as the rest of us believed the (also erroneous) traductionist theory of the origin of the soul — that all human souls are ‘fragments’ of Adam’s soul, and thus, while not pre-existing the creation as Christ does, pre-existed our conception and birth. Indeed Blessed Augustine’s overly gloomy view of the Fall, termed “Original Sin” in contrast to the Orthodox notion of Ancestral Sin, was originally argued on the basis of traductionism.

Strangely the Latin Church and most protestants have embraced Augustine’s description of the Fall while rejecting his views on the origin of the soul, in favor of the Orthodox position that each soul is created anew at the moment of conception. It is, of course, this the creationist theory of the origin of the soul (yes that’s the correct term, predating the use of the same word vis-a-vis the origin of the universe by a good millenium plus) that you are arguing for, but the traductionists also had their proof-texts (esp. the one about Melchizedek receiving tithes from the patriarchs, and even including the one from Jeremiah you quoted), so the truth of the creationist view is seen in the tradition of the Church (both East and West) as the sound interpreter of the Scriptures, not in the Scriptures themselves.


6 posted on 07/16/2012 6:32:44 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: Dr. Thorne
Mormonism: The Scientology of the 19th Century

Indeed

Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology

* Origins
o Based on entirely unevidenced stories
o Doctrines created and evolved over time, sometimes changing

* Founders
o Known for their extreme desire for wealth
o Known for telling stories and lies
o Convicted and imprisoned for illegal activities
o Died during their trouble with the law

* Legal troubles
o Involved in many illegal activities, in many cases as part of official organization doctrine and practices
o Support destruction of outsiders, especially apostates (blood atonement, shunning, "fair game")
o Legal troubles led to changes in doctrine (at least on the surface, note polygamy and "fair game")

* Teachings
o Pre- and post-mortal existence
o Eternal progression (godhood, clear thetan)
o Only way to know truth is to experience it yourself
o Christianity, Bible only partly true
o Focus on thriving and happiness in present life rather than the afterlife or eternal life
o "Salvation" by works
o Give "milk" instead of "meat"
o Official endorsement of lying about or avoiding discussion of controversial doctrines, especially origin of man and key figures (Heavenly Father, Xenu, spirit children, thetans, etc)
o Levels can be achieved (Operating Thetan levels, temple Mormons, eternal progression, different kingdoms)
o Resistance is dismissed as proof/evidence of validity

* Behavior
o Persecution complex
o Label and treat opposition as evil enemies ("Antis", "Suppressive Persons")

Other Similarities:

1. Pre-existence of humanity:
LDS: All humans pre-existed in the spirit world before being born on earth.
Scientology: People were thetans in past lives + belief in reincarnation.

2. Unlimited potential for humans:
LDS: Heavenly Father (God) is an exalted man and LDS men may become gods with omnipotence and omniscience.
Scientology: People may become thetans again, regaining their freedom from matter, energy, space, and time (MEST).

3. “Salvation” only through their Church:
LDS: Exaltation and godhood only through the LDS Church.
Scientology: Recovering one’s thetanhood only possible through Church of Scientology.

This thread drew over 400 replies:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology

L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.

According to Scientology, when a person dies — or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body — they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)

Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts. LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...one mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."

If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.

Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.

For example:

* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.

Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)

BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?

Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect the third to be fulfilled also. (Source: Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264, 1892)

7 posted on 07/16/2012 6:33:25 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Wait a minute, I thought we were not supposed to point out how idiotic and flawed Mormonism is until after the election. I think the Democrats think we have some conspiracy in that regard but we have no taboo subjects. Racist socialist egomaniac friendly to Islam or a Mormon, interesting choice but a no brainer.


8 posted on 07/16/2012 6:34:30 AM PDT by dog breath
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To: dog breath
Wait a minute, I thought we were not supposed to point out how idiotic and flawed Mormonism is until after the election. I think the Democrats think we have some conspiracy in that regard but we have no taboo subjects

Thanks for not catering to censorship-by-frowning upon, as too many FR Romney supporters have bought into. Indeed, you'd think by the way some FREEPERs treat this as a "taboo subject" that truth is something for them to manipulate at will -- to turn off and on like a convenient lamp.

9 posted on 07/16/2012 6:38:13 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Elsie

*sigh* you’ve really missed my point completely, haven’t you...


10 posted on 07/16/2012 6:42:49 AM PDT by Mr. K (OBAMA MUST BE STOPPED ROMNEY/GINGRICH)
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To: Mr. K

Seemed like a well though out discussion of a theological point.

There is a strain of thinking that all doctrine should be avoided since it causes strife between believers.

I disagree. If you don’t know what you believe and examine what you believe you will end up believing all manner of blasphemies.


11 posted on 07/16/2012 6:45:27 AM PDT by DManA
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To: Elsie

“This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.”

But...but...but Elsie, i thought you and other mormon-fearing freepers said mormons weren’t worshipers of Christ?


12 posted on 07/16/2012 6:50:07 AM PDT by IWONDR
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To: Colofornian

Mormonoism = Scientology = Islam
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AFAIAC


13 posted on 07/16/2012 6:50:18 AM PDT by fishtank (The denial of original sin is the root of liberalism.)
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To: Colofornian
The Internecine Sniping on Belief Systems
is counterproductive to the greater task
of supporting Conservatism;
the signature task of this site.

It is distracting those here from the Core issues before us.
There are many other fine venues to take up this topic.

There are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi,
Atheists, Agnostics, and Seekers on this site.
They are here to engage in the Warfare against
Pervasive Socialism, Liberalism, Death Worship, and Chaos

Yes, Belief is core to who we are and how we see the world
Yes, Confusion in this regard corrupts our ability to understand, but
No, I'd take this discussion elsewhere...

14 posted on 07/16/2012 7:13:16 AM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: Mr. K

There are far more than “finer points” of Biblical difference when it comes to the LDS.

As far as damning to hell there is no one here doing such, the Bible itself is clear on that issue.


15 posted on 07/16/2012 8:00:18 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Mr. K

You got God hates everyone from the start of this thread?
How strange.


16 posted on 07/16/2012 8:07:05 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: HangnJudge; Jim Robinson
The Internecine Sniping on Belief Systems is counterproductive to the greater task of supporting Conservatism; the signature task of this site.
It is distracting those here from the Core issues before us. There are many other fine venues to take up this topic.
There are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi, Atheists, Agnostics, and Seekers on this site...Yes, Belief is core to who we are and how we see the world Yes, Confusion in this regard corrupts our ability to understand, but No, I'd take this discussion elsewhere...

Except...

...That when you click on the main forum page of Free Republic...there's a certain colorful line highlighted by the host of this site:

Welcome to Free Republic, America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty conservatives (Notice, too who is listed first)

Sorry! But the host is unapologetic for his commitment -- and his site's commitment -- to God. Therefore...
...Buddhists who may not believe in a personal God;
...agnostics who may not honor a personal God;
...and atheists who completely ignore a personal God...
...would perhaps like the site owner to jettison God completely.

(Is that what you are suggesting he do?)

And Hindus? Like Mormons, they are polytheists. Are you also then suggesting that the site host change his "Welcome" to include "gods" plural? All in the name of inclusivity?

Is that not quite rude on your part?

I mean, really, hangnjudge, do you go into homes in your neighborhood, and upon seeing any reference to "God," do you -- in the name of multi-religionism -- ask them to change their craft decor'/display, their fridge magnets, their art, etc. -- all to reflect your all-religious-anythingISM??? Do you, upon finding a particular decor that mentions "God", whip out your sharpie and either add an "s" to "God" -- or delete it completely -- all in the name of being more "inclusive?"

Do you not realize how offensive that'd be to the host?

And why are you thereby being so discourteous to your site host here?

And why do you grade against the uniqueness of theism? Aren't theists allowed to simply be theists without the multi-culturalists, multi-religion-everythingISts and their apologist allies running amok and running interference on behalf of their various diverse gods?

[Well, you can at least go back to your campus profs & teachers -- those who taught you this version of "multi-culturalism" -- and tell them they earned an A+ for re-educating you and imbedding within you their particular secular concepts]

17 posted on 07/16/2012 8:14:57 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: HangnJudge

It was posted on the Religion thread. How is talking about docrtine distracting from the purpose of the religion thread?

Maybe you are suggesting the religion thread be eliminated?


18 posted on 07/16/2012 8:33:58 AM PDT by DManA
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To: IWONDR

mormons do not worship an eternal Christ, they worship a created christ who once was some guy who earned his status, but is insufficient to do anything of an eternal nature.


19 posted on 07/16/2012 8:42:28 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: IWONDR
But...but...but Elsie, i thought you and other mormon-fearing freepers said mormons weren’t worshipers of Christ?

But...but...but wonder_no_more; we said the CHRIST that is described in the BIBLE; NOT the one described by Salt Lake City.


MANY have accepted the re-definition of many Christian derived words by MORMON headquarters. You might THINK you know what a MORMON is discussing; when in fact you are on an entirely different plane; wordwise.


 

Here is an alphabetical list of some of the more important terms and their meanings to a Mormon:

AARONIC PRIESTHOOD: This is called the lesser priesthood, and is usually held by young men starting at the age of 12 to the age of about 18. It is also held for a short time by men who have just become members.

AFTERLIFE: The Mormon afterlife is divided up into four levels. From the lowest to the highest they are: hell, and then three levels of heaven: the telestial, the terrestrial, and the place where God dwells, the celestial (also called the kingdom of God). The celestial is also divided, the highest level being "exaltation," or becoming a God.

APOSTLES: The Mormon Church claims to have the same organization as the primitive church that Jesus set up. They also have twelve apostles and sometimes use this as a proof of their divine appointment as the one true church. But they actually have fifteen or more most of the time. The general practice has been for a new president, who is also an apostle, to appoint counselors from the Quorum of the Twelve; then the openings left by the president and his counselors are filled, resulting in a total of fifteen.

CELESTIAL KINGDOM: See Heaven.

ELOHIM: The name of God the Father.

EXALTATION: This is becoming a God in the highest level of the celestial kingdom.

ETERNAL PROGRESSION: The teaching that each of us has the potential to become a God just like God the Father did. He was once a man capable of physical death, was resurrected and progressed to become a God. We can take a similar path and get all the power, glory, dominion, and knowledge the Father and Jesus Christ has. We then will be able to procreate spirit children who will worship us as we do God the Father.

GOD: Usually means God the Father. He was once a man like us capable of physical death and he progressed until he became a God. He has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. Within Mormonism, Gods, angels, people and devils all have the same nature or substance but are at different stages along the line of progression to Godhood.

GRACE - The Mormon concept of grace means making oneself worthy of the grace of God by doing good works in the church, temple, and community.

HEAVEN-The Mormon church teaches there are three levels of heaven (three "degrees of glory"):

HELL: A place of torment from which the worst of sinners are resurrected (if they repent) into the Telestial kingdom; only a limited number remain in hell forever, - the devil and the demons and apostates who consciously reject and work against Mormonism.

HOLY GHOST: The third member of the Godhead, a personage of spirit, unlike the Father and Son who have bodies of flesh and bones.

JEHOVAH: The pre-incarnate name for Jesus Christ.

JESUS CHRIST: The spirit of Jesus Christ was the first spirit born to God the Father and his wife (Heavenly Mother). He progressed to become a God under the Father. (The Father is also the literal father of Jesus' body in the exact same way we were begotten by our earthly parents.) He now has a body of flesh and bones, but no blood. He is the spirit brother of Satan whose spirit was procreated in the same way as Jesus'. To Mormons, even the atonement of his shed blood is not enough to provide forgiveness of sin and bring eternal life. Stripped of his Deity and demoted to a partial Savior, the Jesus of Mormonism has been robbed of his power and authority. Not only is the Mormon Jesus one who had struggled to achieve his own salvation, he also failed to establish his church. Both in Jerusalem and in the America's where Jesus was supposed to have visited, he attempted to build a group of followers. But in each case, truth was overcome by the alleged early church apostasy into false teaching.

MARRIAGE: The Mormon Church teaches two types of marriage. One ends at death. The other is for "time and eternity." If the couple is married in a Mormon temple by someone with authority it is believed they will stay married in the next life. This kind of marriage is needed if they are to progress, not only as husband and wife, but as God and Goddess.

MELCHIZEDEK PRIESTHOOD: The higher of two categories of ministry in the LDS Church, assigned primarily to seasoned members over the age of 18, males only.

POLYGAMY: The practice of men having more than one wife was started by Joseph Smith in the early/mid 1830's and ostensibly ended in 1890. It is not now sanctioned by the LDS church headquartered in Salt Lake City. Members found practicing it are excommunicated. While the practice was ended, the revelation teaching it is still in Mormon scripture (Doctrine & Covenants 132). Some Mormon splinter groups believe the teaching was for eternity and still practice it. These modern-day polygamists (called fundamentalists) number in the 30,000-50,000 range.

PRE-EXISTENCE: The Mormon teaching that our spirits (Mormons and non-Mormons) were procreated in a premortal life by God the Father and our Mother in Heaven, that our spirits were born and raised to maturity before coming to earth to obtain physical bodies, and that the spirit of Jesus Christ was the first one born to our Heavenly parents.

PRIESTHOOD: A category of ministry in the LDS Church open to all worthy males 12 years of age or older, empowering them to act in God's name. Non-Mormons cannot hold the priesthood, hence they have no authority. Men of African descent have only recently (by special correction of the original revelations) been allowed to hold these offices.

PROPHET: The top leader of the Mormon Church is considered not only a prophet but is also a seer and revelator. He has the title "president." He is the only one who can speak for the whole church and receive new revelation for the whole church. When the current prophet dies, the most senior (time as an apostle, not age) of the twelve apostles, the president of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, becomes the new president. He can appoint counselors, who receive their authority from him.

SALVATION: A word that Mormons qualify in one of three ways: unconditional or general salvation is simply resurrection from the dead, granted to all through Christ's atonement; conditional or individual salvation involves entering the celestial kingdom through works of Mormonism; full salvation means exaltation to become a God as a result of temple ceremonies and other works. The word 'salvation' can have a two-fold meaning: a) forgiveness of sins and b) universal resurrection:

The Mormons have several different levels of "salvation".

SATAN: One of the spirit children of God. As a consequence of their rebellion Satan and his angels cannot have mortal bodies - hence cannot progress.

SCRIPTURES: The Mormon Church has four documents it calls canonized scriptures: the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and the King James Version of the Holy Bible.

SON OF GOD: Along with Jesus Christ, all of us are viewed as the children of God, his literal spirit children. This makes us all - Mormons, non-Mormons, Jesus Christ and Satan - spirit brothers.

SPIRITS: Nonmaterial beings allegedly procreated in the pre-existence by God the Father and his wife. Jesus Christ, and even we ourselves, were supposedly born and raised to maturity as spirits before coming into bodies on this earth. The spirit of Satan was also procreated in this way. This makes Satan and Jesus Christ spirit brothers. Jesus selected a righteous path; Satan selected the opposite.

STANDARD WORKS: The four canonized scriptures (see Scripture above) used by the Mormon Church are called the Standard Works.

TEMPLE: One of about four dozen special (for LDS) buildings around the world in which sacred (to LDS) ceremonies are performed for the living and the dead; off limits to nonmembers and even to Mormons who lack a "temple recommend" from their leaders. Only about 20% of the Mormons qualify to go.

TRINITY: This word is used by Christians to summarize the Biblical teaching that within the one true God is three persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. They share the same nature or substance so that there are not three Gods, but three persons in the one God. Mormons say they also believe in the Trinitarian concept of God. But really what they mean are that God the Father is a God, God the Son is another God, and God the Holy Ghost is a third God and they are "one God" because they are "one in purpose." Mormons often have an incorrect understanding of what Christians mean by the "Trinity." They say Christians believe that the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one person (i.e., Monophysiteism) or that God shows himself as the Father or the Son or the Holy Ghost (i.e. Modalism).

VIRGIN BIRTH: A concept negated by the view that God, a resurrected man with flesh and bones according to Mormon teachings, literally fathered Jesus in the flesh in the same way in which earthly men father their children. Despite the documented position of previous Mormon prophets, presidents, and apostles about the nature of Christ's conception, modern LDS apologists maintain that "Christ was born of a virgin". How can they? By changing the definition of the word "virgin". The reasoning goes like this: since Mary had sexual relations with an immortal man, not a mortal man, the phrase "virgin birth" still applies.

WORD OF WISDOM: The name for the Mormon Church's teaching requiring abstinence from tobacco, alcohol, and hot drinks (tea and coffee).



21 posted on 07/16/2012 9:21:45 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: HangnJudge
...the signature task of this site.

Oh??

Welcome to Free Republic, America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty conservatives!

22 posted on 07/16/2012 9:24:11 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: HangnJudge
It is distracting those here from the Core issues before us.

Oh??

Welcome to Free Republic, America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty conservatives!

23 posted on 07/16/2012 9:24:53 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: HangnJudge
In the Religion forum, on a thread titled PRE-EXISTENCE?
 
 
Look around you. there are many little twisty passages here.

24 posted on 07/16/2012 9:25:58 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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To: The_Reader_David

Thank you for an analysis that was actually enjoyable to read.


25 posted on 07/16/2012 9:29:28 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Congrats to Ted Kennedy! He's been sober for two years now!!)
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To: HangnJudge
This thread is posted on the Religion Forum.

If you do not want to see Religion Forum posts, do NOT use the "everything" option on the Free Republic browse option list. Instead, browse by "News/Activism." When you log back in, the browse will reset to "everything" - so be sure to set it back to "News/Activism."

Click here for more guidelines to the Religion Forum.

26 posted on 07/16/2012 9:40:30 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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Comment #27 Removed by Moderator

To: IWONDR
It's the "nature" of Christ and the mormon concept of who and what Christ is that is different.

Do you believe that Christ is God eternal or do you believe that he's a product of "heavenly relations" between a heavenly father and mother?

Do you believe that Christ is the literal spirit brother of satan because of those "relations" taking place in heaven?

Do you believe that Christ is only there to check your balance due and pay the difference once you arrive at the gates or did he pay it ALL on the cross?

Here is an example right out of the BoM that gives a pretty accurate and not so subtle description of the mormon christ...he's OT style vengeful.

In the Book of Mormon, Jesus brought death and destruction with him to the Cross. In 3 Nephi, Chapters 8 and 9, it details the events testifying of Christ's crucifixion. It describes the desolation of the great city of Zarahemla by fire, and the city of Moroni "did sink into the sea and the inhabitants thereof were drowned... the earth was carried up upon the city of Mornihah...there was great and terrible destruction in the land southward......terrible destruction in the land northward....the highways were broken up....many great and noble cities were sunk and many burned and many shaken till the buildings thereof had fallen to the earth.....all these great and terrible things were done in the space of three hours."

Here are links to the Official LdS BoM chapters that detail these events:

3 Nephi 8

3 Nephi 9

3 Nephi, Chapter 9, tells of further wrath as the Lord also destroyed the cities and inhabitants of Gigal, Onihah, Mocum, Jerusalem, Gadiandi, Gadiomnah, Jacob, Gimgimmo, Jacobugath, Laman, Josh, Gad, and Kishkumen. (a total of 16 major cities) Who did all this killing to testify of our Lord's atonement on Calvary?

3 Nephi 9:15 reveals the murderer of approximately 2 million innocent inhabitants of the Book of Mormon lands, "Behold, I am Jesus Christ the son of God. I created the heavens and the earth and all things that in them are." He adds, (in verse 21), "behold, I have come unto the world to bring redemption unto the world to save the world from sin." I guess the easiest way was to kill almost every living creature; at least the vast majority of that portion of his "other sheep have I." This Jesus was a god of wrath, exercising some form of Old Testament Judgment by the one who was supposed to be the end of the law.

2 Cor.11:3-5 tells us that there will be those who would teach a different Christ. Paul says of them, "For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ".

It is recorded in the BoM that the mormon christ massacred millions of men, women and children and destroyed at least 16, if not more cities. He did this to "save" mankind as the BoM states. Well, why did He sacrifice Himself on the cross then? What was the point of doing that if He can just wipe millions of people off the face of the planet?

Yet the Christ of the Bible, when He came back, "do not be afraid", "peace be upon you" recorded numerous times in the Bible. No hint whatsoever of Christ going on a murderous and destructive rampage in the ME.

I wonder, were there no evil folks in the ME for the Biblical Christ to destroy? Since the BoM is claiming all those poor souls the BoM christ destroyed were "evil" and without redemption, is it contended that all the folks in the ME were somehow, "special"?

They are not the same "Christ" and for mormons to persist in stating as much, is to deny their own theology and doctrine.

28 posted on 07/16/2012 11:37:36 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: jimt
I see today's 30 seconds of “I have nothing useful to add” has responded...
29 posted on 07/16/2012 12:24:39 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: jimt

You meant to post this reply to #4; didn’t you??


30 posted on 07/16/2012 2:41:17 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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Comment #31 Removed by Moderator

To: ejonesie22

Jimmie’s words have VANISHED!!


32 posted on 07/17/2012 5:13:47 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going)
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