The Bible teaches life begins at conception, which means there is no pre-existence of life. Christ is the only Pre-Existent Being. According to the Bible, we were not in a pre-existence with Christ. There are no scriptures in the Bible stating we were in heaven and will one day return.

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

"Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."

As a member I thought this meant God literally knew us as spirit children. However, I did not take into consideration that God is all knowing. He knows all because He created all...in the womb.

If we were all living in the pre-existence with God in heaven, then God would have been my God before my mother's womb.

"Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar! The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name.

And so it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven.

The Bible also teaches Jesus is the only pre-existent Being ever and our existence began on earth.

For behold, by the power of his word man came upon the face of the earth, which earth was created by the power of his word. Wherefore, if God being able to speak and the world was, and to speak and man was created, O then, why not able to command the earth, or the workmanship of his hands upon the face of it, according to his will and pleasure?

And Ammon said: This is God. And Ammon said unto him again: Believest thou that this Great Spirit, who is God, created all things which are in heaven and in the earth?

Ammon said unto him: I am a man; and man in the beginning was created after the image of God, and I am called by his Holy Spirit to teach these things unto this people, that they may be brought to a knowledge of that which is just and true; And a portion of that Spirit dwelleth in me, which giveth me knowledge, and also power according to my faith and desires which are in God. Now when Ammon had said these words, he began at the creation of the world, and also the creation of Adam, and told him all the things concerning the fall of man, and rehearsed and laid before him the records and the holy scriptures of the people, which had been spoken by the prophets, even down to the time that their father, Lehi, left Jerusalem.

Other LDS scriptures disagree with the Bible and the Book of Mormon = man pre-existed.

LDS scriptures also state Jesus is Firstborn of the many pre-existent children of God and everyone pre-existed. Another LDS teaching is that we will return to live with Heavenly Father, because we lived with Him before we came to this earth. This is a major teaching of the LDS church, but it is not a Biblical teaching.

Ye were also in the beginning with the Father, that which is Spirit, even the Spirit of truth;

Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be. All truth is independent in that sphere in which God has placed it, to act for itself, as all intelligence also; otherwise there is no existence. Behold, here is the agency of man, and here is the condemnation of man; because that which was from the beginning is plainly manifest unto them, and they receive not the light. And every man whose spirit receiveth not the light is under condemnation. For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

Howbeit that he made the greater star; as, also, if there be two spirits, and one shall be more intelligent than the other, yet these two spirits, notwithstanding one is more intelligent than the other, have no beginning, they existed before, they shall have no end, they shall exist after, for they are gnolaum, or eternal.

The same scriptures state Jesus and Lucifer (Satan) lived together in the pre-existence and Jesus is the Spirit Brother of Lucifer.

And now, verily I say unto you, I was in the beginning with the Father, and am the Firstborn;

And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

If the Bible teaches Christ is the only person to pre-exist, then why does the LDS church teach everyone pre-existed?

I was initially devastated when I received this answer that I did not live in a pre-existence, yet overjoyed to find the truth that Christ is the only person worthy enough to have pre-existed! He created me in my mother's womb. He knows everything about me...even the number of hairs on my head. I AM TRULY BLESSED!

An ex-Mormon testimony: My unanswered question was: If the Bible teaches Christ is the only person to pre-exist, then why does the LDS church teach everyone pre-existed? I was initially devastated when I received this answer that I did not live in a pre-existence, yet overjoyed to find the truth that Christ is the only person worthy enough to have pre-existed! He created me in my mother's womb. He knows everything about me...even the number of hairs on my head. I AM TRULY BLESSED!

Indeed, Jesus Christ is the ONLY ONE who "pre-existed" from eternity past!!! (Which means those who claim otherwise have been "duped")

You see, the first distinct focus on the Mormon "Jesus" was that he was some unembodied vague "intelligence" even before the Mormon claim that Jesus, like Superman, had parents from another planet?

Indeed. Lds "scriptures" Doctrine & Covenants 93:29,33 assign ALL of us eternal status as past-tense intelligences. (So, per Mormonism, we're ALL supposedly as "eternal" as Jesus is -- reducing the uniqueness of Jesus Christ)

For more on Lds "scripture" D&C 93:29,33, see: Mormon Science and Space Doctrines [Kolobian cosmology]

Yes! Let's argue about semantics and nuances of the wording of things in The Bible, and damn to hell anyone who does not think it means what I think it means!!

I agree wholeheartedly!

Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???

Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!

Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).

Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).

Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).

Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).

Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses

, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).

President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).

James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).

President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).

President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).

President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

Yes! Let's argue about semantics and nuances of the wording of things in The Bible, and damn to hell anyone who does not think it means what I think it means!!

I agree wholeheartedly!

Who, in their right mind, can claim to actually KNOW ANYTHING in Scripture???

Better to rely upon the words of great men instead!!!

The Doctrine and Covenants

Section 132

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Nauvoo, Illinois, recorded 12 July 1843, relating to the new and everlasting covenant, including the eternity of the marriage covenant, and also the plurality of wives (see History of the Church, 5:501–7). Although the revelation was recorded in 1843, it is evident from the historical records that the doctrines and principles involved in this revelation had been known by the Prophet since 1831.

1–6, Exaltation is gained through the new and everlasting covenant; 7–14, The terms and conditions of that covenant are set forth; 15–20, Celestial marriage and a continuation of the family unit enable men to become gods; 21–25, The strait and narrow way leads to eternal lives; 26–27, The law is given relative to blasphemy against the Holy Ghost; 28–39, Promises of eternal increase and exaltation are made to prophets and Saints in all ages; 40–47, Joseph Smith is given the power to bind and seal on earth and in heaven; 48–50, The Lord seals upon him his exaltation; 51–57, Emma Smith is counseled to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

16Therefore, when they are out of the world they neither marry nor are given in ^amarriage; but are appointed angels in ^bheaven, which angels are ministering ^cservants, to minister for those who are worthy of a far more, and an exceeding, and an eternal weight of glory.

17For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are ^aangels of God forever and ever.

18And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that ^acovenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God.

19And again, verily I say unto you, if a man ^amarry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and ^beverlasting covenant, and it is ^csealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of ^dpromise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the ^ekeys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit ^fthrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s ^gBook of Life, that he shall commit no ^hmurder whereby to shed innocent ⁱblood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their ^jexaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the ^kseeds forever and ever.

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from ^aeverlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be ^bgods, because they have ^call power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my ^alaw ye cannot attain to this glory.

22For ^astrait is the gate, and narrow the ^bway that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the ^clives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.

23But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that ^awhere I am ye shall be also.

24This is ^aeternal lives—to ^bknow the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath ^csent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.

25^aBroad is the gate, and wide the way that leadeth to the ^bdeaths; and many there are that go in thereat, because they ^creceive me not, neither do they abide in my law.

While the Mormon neo-gnostic conception of the pre-existence of the soul (or person) is heretical and absolute humbug, one cannot disprove it by contrasting the created human soul with the pre-eternal Word’s pre-existence of all creation. Many pious Christians reading the same Scriptures as the rest of us believed the (also erroneous) traductionist theory of the origin of the soul — that all human souls are ‘fragments’ of Adam’s soul, and thus, while not pre-existing the creation as Christ does, pre-existed our conception and birth. Indeed Blessed Augustine’s overly gloomy view of the Fall, termed “Original Sin” in contrast to the Orthodox notion of Ancestral Sin, was originally argued on the basis of traductionism.

Strangely the Latin Church and most protestants have embraced Augustine’s description of the Fall while rejecting his views on the origin of the soul, in favor of the Orthodox position that each soul is created anew at the moment of conception. It is, of course, this the creationist theory of the origin of the soul (yes that’s the correct term, predating the use of the same word vis-a-vis the origin of the universe by a good millenium plus) that you are arguing for, but the traductionists also had their proof-texts (esp. the one about Melchizedek receiving tithes from the patriarchs, and even including the one from Jeremiah you quoted), so the truth of the creationist view is seen in the tradition of the Church (both East and West) as the sound interpreter of the Scriptures, not in the Scriptures themselves.

Mormonism: The Scientology of the 19th Century

Indeed

Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology

* Origins
o Based on entirely unevidenced stories
o Doctrines created and evolved over time, sometimes changing

* Founders
o Known for their extreme desire for wealth
o Known for telling stories and lies
o Convicted and imprisoned for illegal activities
o Died during their trouble with the law

* Legal troubles
o Involved in many illegal activities, in many cases as part of official organization doctrine and practices
o Support destruction of outsiders, especially apostates (blood atonement, shunning, "fair game")
o Legal troubles led to changes in doctrine (at least on the surface, note polygamy and "fair game")

* Teachings
o Pre- and post-mortal existence
o Eternal progression (godhood, clear thetan)
o Only way to know truth is to experience it yourself
o Christianity, Bible only partly true
o Focus on thriving and happiness in present life rather than the afterlife or eternal life
o "Salvation" by works
o Give "milk" instead of "meat"
o Official endorsement of lying about or avoiding discussion of controversial doctrines, especially origin of man and key figures (Heavenly Father, Xenu, spirit children, thetans, etc)
o Levels can be achieved (Operating Thetan levels, temple Mormons, eternal progression, different kingdoms)
o Resistance is dismissed as proof/evidence of validity

* Behavior
o Persecution complex
o Label and treat opposition as evil enemies ("Antis", "Suppressive Persons")

Other Similarities:

1. Pre-existence of humanity:
LDS: All humans pre-existed in the spirit world before being born on earth.
Scientology: People were thetans in past lives + belief in reincarnation.

2. Unlimited potential for humans:
LDS: Heavenly Father (God) is an exalted man and LDS men may become gods with omnipotence and omniscience.
Scientology: People may become thetans again, regaining their freedom from matter, energy, space, and time (MEST).

3. “Salvation” only through their Church:
LDS: Exaltation and godhood only through the LDS Church.
Scientology: Recovering one’s thetanhood only possible through Church of Scientology.

This thread drew over 400 replies:
Similarities between Mormonism and Scientology

L. Ron Hubbard could have easily substituted Kolob for Venus in his religion.

According to Scientology, when a person dies — or, in Scientology terms, when a thetan abandons its physical body — they go to a "landing station" on the planet Venus, where the thetan is re-implanted and told lies about its past life and its next life. The Venusians take the thetan, "capsule" it, and send it back to Earth to be dumped into the ocean off the coast of California. Source: Thetan (Wikipedia)

Seems to me that, per the Mormon myth narrative, when when an earthling is becoming "encapsuled" they leave from a "launching station" on the planet Kolob, where the Mormon spirit is implanted inside a human body, and once born with a Mormon family, the Mormon is told lies about its past life and its next life. The Mormon gods take the Mormon, "capsule" it in that body, and send it to Earth to be dumped at age 8 into the Mormon baptismal founts off of many international coasts. LDS (Mormonism) and Scientology: A Brief Theological Comparison Under one of the differences, I actually see more of a connection...one mentions Mormonism's "exaltation to godhood"...Scientologists a "return to Thetanhood" as its "final goal."

If there is a resemblance between the two founders, presumably it is because Hubbard looked at Joseph Smith and the LDS and decided it would provide him with a very useful model for a successful religion. He gave it an SF twist, because that was what he was good at, and it probably amused him.

Well, Hubbard did have to "twist" any sci-fi that Mormon leaders hadn't already done before him -- just a lot less detail.

For example:

* Lds "prophet" Brigham Young: Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon? ...when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the most ignorant of their fellows. So it is with regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.
Source: Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271...1870 -- so keep in mind, Young had already been leading the Lds church for about 25 years or so when he made this comment.

Brigham Young's first counselor was "apostle" Heber C. Kimball: "Where did the earth come from? From its parents earths...The earth is alive. If it was not, it could not produce." (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 36, 1857)

BTW, where did Brigham Young get his "source" re: the habitation of the moon?

Oliver B. Huntington: Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a prophet. As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do--that they live generally near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging nearly six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style. In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and--to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can not behold with your eyes. The first two promises have been fulfilled, and the latter may be verified. From the verification of the two promises we may reasonably expect the third to be fulfilled also. (Source: Young Woman's Journal, Vol. 3, pp. 263-264, 1892)

The Internecine Sniping on Belief Systems is counterproductive to the greater task of supporting Conservatism; the signature task of this site.
It is distracting those here from the Core issues before us. There are many other fine venues to take up this topic.
There are Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindi, Atheists, Agnostics, and Seekers on this site...Yes, Belief is core to who we are and how we see the world Yes, Confusion in this regard corrupts our ability to understand, but No, I'd take this discussion elsewhere...

Except...

...That when you click on the main forum page of Free Republic...there's a certain colorful line highlighted by the host of this site:

Welcome to Free Republic, America's exclusive site for God, Family, Country, Life & Liberty conservatives (Notice, too who is listed first)

Sorry! But the host is unapologetic for his commitment -- and his site's commitment -- to God. Therefore...
...Buddhists who may not believe in a personal God;
...agnostics who may not honor a personal God;
...and atheists who completely ignore a personal God...
...would perhaps like the site owner to jettison God completely.

(Is that what you are suggesting he do?)

And Hindus? Like Mormons, they are polytheists. Are you also then suggesting that the site host change his "Welcome" to include "gods" plural? All in the name of inclusivity?

Is that not quite rude on your part?

I mean, really, hangnjudge, do you go into homes in your neighborhood, and upon seeing any reference to "God," do you -- in the name of multi-religionism -- ask them to change their craft decor'/display, their fridge magnets, their art, etc. -- all to reflect your all-religious-anythingISM??? Do you, upon finding a particular decor that mentions "God", whip out your sharpie and either add an "s" to "God" -- or delete it completely -- all in the name of being more "inclusive?"

Do you not realize how offensive that'd be to the host?

And why are you thereby being so discourteous to your site host here?

And why do you grade against the uniqueness of theism? Aren't theists allowed to simply be theists without the multi-culturalists, multi-religion-everythingISts and their apologist allies running amok and running interference on behalf of their various diverse gods?

[Well, you can at least go back to your campus profs & teachers -- those who taught you this version of "multi-culturalism" -- and tell them they earned an A+ for re-educating you and imbedding within you their particular secular concepts]

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