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Are the Torah and the Gospel mutually exclusive?
Vivificat - from Contemplation to Action ^ | 26 July 2012 | TDJ

Posted on 07/26/2012 11:34:14 AM PDT by Te骹ilo

Brethren: Peace and Good to all of you.

I've been reading lately several works on textual, form, literary, and historical criticism of the Bible, as well as the relationship between both Testaments, and as corollary, the relationship between the Church and the Jewish people. Today I reached the millenary impasse: for the Jews to accept Jesus as their Messiah would entail, in their view, a rejection of the Torah; for us Christians to reconcile with them would entail the rejection of the core of Christianity  - without a necessary conversion to Judaism which they don't see as necessary for "righteous Gentiles" to reach "the world to come". At least in the view of those Jews who still believe in "a world to come."

Testing my diamond

During my investigation, I found a letter to Yemeni Jews by the Jewish medieval sage Moses Maimonides to be upsetting. The quote is as follows:

Ever since the time of Revelation, every despot or slave that has attained to power, be he violent or ignoble, has made it his first aim and his final purpose to destroy our law, and to vitiate our religion, by means of the sword, by violence, or by brute force, such as Amalek, Sisera, Sennacherib, Nebuchadnezzar, Titus, Hadrian, may their bones be ground to dust, and others like them. This is one of the two classes which attempt to foil the Divine will. 
The second class consists of the most intelligent and educated among the nations, such as the Syrians, Persians, and Greeks. These also endeavor to demolish our law and to vitiate it by means of arguments which they invent, and by means of controversies which they institute.... 
After that there arose a new sect which combined the two methods, namely, conquest and controversy, into one, because it believed that this procedure would be more effective in wiping out every trace of the Jewish nation and religion. It, therefore, resolved to lay claim to prophecy and to found a new faith, contrary to our Divine religion, and to contend that it was equally God-given.  
Thereby it hoped to raise doubts and to create confusion, since one is opposed to the other and both supposedly emanate from a Divine source, which would lead to the destruction of both religions. For such is the remarkable plan contrived by a man who is envious and querulous. He will strive to kill his enemy and to save his own life, but when he finds it impossible to attain his objective, he will devise a scheme whereby they both will be slain. 
The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him. 
Daniel had already alluded to him when he presaged the downfall of a wicked one and a heretic among the Jews who would endeavor to destroy the Law, claim prophecy for himself, make pretenses to miracles, and allege that he is the Messiah, as it is written, "Also the children of the impudent among thy people shall make bold to claim prophecy, but they shall fall." (Daniel 11:14). [1]
The allegation that Jesus had "a Gentile father" notwithstanding - based on a Talmudic passage alleging that Jesus was the product of a Roman soldier's rape - I took the text of the letter at face value for analysis and asked myself C.S. Lewis' famous questions: Jesus was either evil, a madman, or who he said he was, the Messiah, Son of God. Maimonides, along with post-Second Temple Judaism denied the third option. Therefore, we're left with defining Jesus within an spectrum of possibilities located anywhere between two extremes: he was either crazy as a loon or as evil as the devil.

(You might be asking why I even care to ask that kind of question. Well, because I care about the truth. I tell people I possess a diamond that I want to share with them, but that this diamond is unique because giving it away will not make me any less wealthy, whereas those receiving it may become as wealthy as I am. Ocassionally, I like to step back and test my diamond for its beauty and hardness.)

Ratzinger's reply

As I said before, I asked myself: is the price to pay to reconcile myself with my Jewish brethren fully and in heart and through this reconciliation, reach the "true" knowledge of the God of Israel, my abandonment of the central claims we make about Jesus of Nazareth, namely that he's God incarnate, the new Moses and lawgiver, Son of God and of Man, and Israel's Messiah?

I didn't have an immediate answer and therefore I prayed for one. God answered the prayer inmediately. It so happens that someone else had asked that question before. Here's how he put it:
The history of the relationship between Israel and Christendom is drenched with blood and tears. It is a history of mistrust and hostility, but also thank God a history marked again and again by attempts at forgiveness, understanding and mutual acceptance. After Auschwitz, the mission of reconciliation and acceptance permits no deferral.

Even if we know that Auschwitz is the gruesome expression of an ideology that not only wanted to destroy Judaism but also hated and sought to eradicate from Christianity its Jewish heritage, the question remains, What could be the reason for so much historical hostility between those who actually must belong together because of their faith in the one God and commitment to his will?

Does this hostility result from something in the very faith of Christians? Is it something in the "essence of Christianity," such that one would have to prescind from Christianity's core, deny Christianity its heart, in order to come to real reconciliation? This is an assumption that some Christian thinkers have in fact made in the last few decades in reaction to the horrors of history. Do confession of Jesus of Nazareth as the Son of the living God and faith in the cross as the redemption of mankind contain an implicit condemnation of the Jews as stubborn and blind, as guilty of the death of the Son of God? Could it be that the core of the faith of Christians themselves compels them to intolerance, even to hostility toward the Jews, and conversely, that the self-esteem of Jews and the defense of their historic dignity and deepest convictions oblige them to demand that Christians abandon the heart of their faith and so require Jews similarly to forsake tolerance? Is the conflict programmed in the heart of religion and only to be overcome through its repudiation?

In this heightened framing of the question, the problem confronting us today reaches far beyond an academic interreligious dialogue into the fundamental decisions of this historic hour. One sees more frequent attempts to mollify the issue by representing Jesus as a Jewish teacher who in principle did not go beyond what was possible in Jewish tradition. His execution is understood to result from the political tensions between Jews and Romans. In point of fact, he was executed by the Roman authority in the way political rebels were punished. His elevation to Son of God is accordingly understood to have occurred after the fact, in a Hellenistic climate; at the same time, in view of the given political circumstances, the blame for the crucifixion is transferred from the Romans to the Jews. As a challenge to exegesis, such interpretations can further an acute listening to the text and perhaps produce something useful. However, they do not speak of the Jesus of the historic sources, but instead construct a new and different Jesus, relegating the historical faith in the Christ of the church to mythology. Christ appears as a product of Greek religiosity and political opportunism in the Roman Empire. One does not do justice to the gravity of the question with such a view; indeed one retreats from it.

Thus the question remains: Can Christian faith, left in its inner power and dignity, not only tolerate Judaism but accept it in its historic mission? Or can it not? Can there be true reconciliation without abandoning the faith, or is reconciliation tied to such abandonment? In reply to this question which concerns us most deeply, I shall not present simply my own views. Rather, I wish to show what the Catechism of the Catholic Church released in 1992 has to say. This work has been published by the magisterium of the Catholic Church as an authentic expression of her faith. In recognition of the significance of Auschwitz and from the mission of the Second Vatican Council, the matter of reconciliation has been inscribed in the catechism as an object of faith. Let us see then how the catechism sounds in relation to our question in terms of its definition of its own mission.
Read the whole essay here.

The man who asked himself the same question and then proceeded to answer it was Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI.

God does answer prayer and comes to the rescue at the precise moment when one is looking down the chasm on the point of vertigo.

A torn, seamless garment

In words repeated by the scholar - and frequent advisor to the US Catholic Bishops - Amy-Jill Levine, I feel a "holy envy" towards Judaism, more so because without Judaism, Christianity would be unintellgible. I study Judaism just before, during, and after the New Testament era with utter seriousness, respect, and many times, admiration.

Yet, my readings have led me to believe that after the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 AD, Judaism resembled - if you allow me the analogy - a seamless garment ripped and torn at the bottom. I think that the Jewish remnant in the Holy Land also saw the discontinuity because, starting with the sucessors of the Pharisees at Jamnia and through the Talmudic age, the Jewish sages applied themselves to "hem" the jagged edges, cut, tie, and add new tzitzits to the torn, seamless garment, sometimes without paying attention to the discontinuities their repairs created.

As a consequence, Judaism became self-contained, unique, standard, and logically impervious to Christian evangelism and apologetics. This is, for the most part, the Talmudists greatest achievement which in turn guaranteed the survival of Jewish identity throughout the centuries.

These centuries were not not good for the Jewish people as they endured persecution by Christians in East and West which in turn  cemented in the emotions of the Jewish people what they had previously held intellectually: that any claim of Jesus as the unique Jewish Messiah was a non-sequitur, to be rejected a priori at all times, and at all places. For, "how can this man ever be considered as God's supreme intervention when his followers kill, persecute, and often disposses and disenfranchise us." It is a fair question and the answer should encourage in us a deep self-reflection.

Nevertheless, and setting momentarily aside the Jewish people's sorrowful history. as a Catholic Christian I can see that the "ripped garment" missing piece is precisely Jesus of Nazareth, his life, teachings, and redemptive mission. Every fiber, every shape of the missing part fits perfectly to its ripped counterpart to the last thread. That many Jews understood this explain why so many of them accepted Jesus as Messiah - and a crucified one at that - shortly after his reported death. For these Jews - and not all of them were yokels from the boondocks - the Christ-event made sense in the light of Israel's election, the Torah, and the designs of a universal God who wanted to draw every single human being toward himself. If Jesus made sense to these Jews, then there was something to Jesus that can invalidate Maimonides' the harsh evaluation he made of Jesus.

This is so, in my view, because as then Cardinal Ratzinger said, Israel's vocation was oriented toward universality. Judaism after Jesus placed its universal vocation in the back fire, at times because survival was of the essence and other times, well, what's the point? Since God will admit righteous Gentiles into his Kingdom, Jews are free to be themselves while leaving to God the fulfillment of Israel's universal vocation.

Yet, this very vocation uniquely seems to have been fulfilled in a single Israelite, Jesus of Nazareth. Therefore, and based upon then Cardinal Ratzinger's solution, I can conclude that not only there is no mutual exclusivity between the Torah and the Gospel, but that their ultimate intelligibility depends on their mutual dependence. Only in this way Israel's universal vocation can be realized, as the God of Israel is made known to all peoples. This is why so many Jews accepted Jesus as Messiah, this is why Christianity is intelligible in Jewish terms.

Love is the key

Yes, I know that most of my Jewish brethren, conditioned as they are to deny any thought of Jesus as Messiah (and for the reasons we have discussed) will reject my conclusion. Alas, I can't do more.

The rift between Jews and Christians will not be healed in my lifetime, I don't think. However, I do think that the claims of Jesus, as preserved and proclaimed by the Church, make sense even withing the Jewish crucible from which Christianity surged. My faith and my reason are secured, but the problem remains: how do I take the Gospel in an affirmative fashion to my Jewish brethren while preserving both our identities? The only personal solution I can find at the moment is by loving them as Jesus loves them, and as we love ourselves. Once we love with this intensity, the remainder will resolve itself through mutual forgiveness before the God who loves, forgive, and judge us all.
[1] Halkin, Abraham S., ed., and Cohen, Boaz, trans. Moses Maimonides' Epistle to Yemen: The Arabic Original and the Three Hebrew Versions, American Academy for Jewish Research, 1952, pp. iii-iv. as quoted in the Wikipedia.


TOPICS: Catholic; Judaism; Theology
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Blunders. Typos. Mine.
1 posted on 07/26/2012 11:34:19 AM PDT by Te骹ilo
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To: narses; YellowRoseofTx; Rashputin; StayoutdaBushesWay; OldNewYork; MotherRedDog; sayuncledave; ...

PING!


2 posted on 07/26/2012 11:37:06 AM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

Oh,boy. This might get ugly.

I’m not going to get into the fray.


3 posted on 07/26/2012 11:40:41 AM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

Yes, the history between thee two faith was quite ugly. But the spiritual linkagee between Judaism and Christianity is undeniable. The New Testament wouldd not maake sense without the Torah and the rest of the OT. Judaism dosn’t need the NT but we (Christians) can’t do without the OT.


4 posted on 07/26/2012 11:51:36 AM PDT by brooklyn dave
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN
I’m not going to get into the fray.

Smart move. However, I'm driven to throw my two cents in.

This post may have merit. But the end result is that it will drive a wedge between Christians and Jews. And that is not a good thing.

5 posted on 07/26/2012 11:54:14 AM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I carrying this lantern? you ask. I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: Te贸filo
Are the Torah and the Gospel mutually exclusive?

No.

Next question?

6 posted on 07/26/2012 11:56:45 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (not voting for the lesser of two evils)
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To: POWERSBOOTHEFAN

hehe

When Jew-haters get zotted they retread and become much more circumspect with their invitations to Jew-bashing. But the goal is always the same.


7 posted on 07/26/2012 12:02:12 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Te贸filo

See, it was not Israel’s God that did anything, because Israel doesn’t HAVE a God. God has Israel, along with every other country in the world. There’s only one God, and He accepts all who truly seek him according to dharma and the Word, Aum, Amen.


8 posted on 07/26/2012 12:06:41 PM PDT by ichabod1 (Spriiingtime for islam, and tyranny. Winter for US and frieeends. . .)
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To: Te贸filo

OK EVERYONE get this straight, W/out the Jewish People(G*D’s Chosen) there would be NO Christianity. Without Genesis there in NO Revelation. The Holy Bible ALL OF IT(w/ the Torah, the ENTIRE Old Testemnet and the New Testament)is an intergrated Message System and a Love Letter from the HOLY CREATOR of the UNIVERSE to You and Me!


9 posted on 07/26/2012 12:07:25 PM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Yashcheritsiy

Yep.


10 posted on 07/26/2012 12:20:51 PM PDT by real saxophonist (Proud to have been beat up and shot by the late Paul Gomez. RIP, 'Gnomez'.)
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To: Te贸filo
You don't have to read very far into the Torah before it starts to point to the Gospel. Genesis 3:15 indicates that someone in the future will crush the head of the serpent. In the words of "The Battle Hymn of the Republic,"
"Let the hero born of woman crush the serpent with his heel."
11 posted on 07/26/2012 12:26:17 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
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To: Te贸filo
Are the Torah and the Gospel mutually exclusive?

Sort of.

Jesus very specifically stated that nobody comes to the Father except through Christ. At a time when he was exclusively preaching to the Jews, so quite obviously he meant that Jews could not come to the Father except through Christ.

So as I see it someone who believes Christ meant what he said must believe that for a Jew to be saved he must accept Christ as his savior. Since many Jews, quite understandably given history, view such an acceptance as very nearly the ultimate betrayal of Judaism, I think it unlikely many will accept Him.

Christians believe the Torah to be fully a part of Christian scripture. But Jews totally reject the Gospel. So if it's an incompatibility, it's a one-way incompatibility.

BTW, I think a better headline might have been, "Are the Talmud and the Gospel mutually exclusive?" And I think the answer to that one would have been a more emphatic Yes.

12 posted on 07/26/2012 12:32:51 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Te贸filo
Jesus was born, raised and lived as a Jew. Since He was and is without sin, He could not have been involved in an ungodly religion. He did not sin against God while living among us.

Jesus was not killed by the Jews - he was killed by the powerful elites of the day for political reasons (He threatened their power). Those powerful political elites just happened to be Jewish and Roman.

His life, death and resurrection fulfilled the prophecies of the Torah. He is intimately connected with that portion of the Word of God.

I personally believe that the Jewish people are still God's Chosen - He gave them that promise and He is eternally faithful and true to His Word.

13 posted on 07/26/2012 12:33:56 PM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: 5thGenTexan
Jesus was not killed by the Jews - he was killed by the powerful elites of the day for political reasons (He threatened their power). Those powerful political elites just happened to be Jewish and Roman.

A very odd statement, IMO.

Was Jesus killed by "The Jews," IWO did all or most of the nation get together and conspire to kill him? Of course not. Any more than the Roman nation did.

Was he killed by Jews, that is by people who were Jews, in fact the designated leaders of the nation? Pretty much. The Gospel accounts are clear that the Jews were the ones who decided he had to die and who did whatever was necessary to reach that goal.

Does this let Pilate off the hook? Nope. He was obviously willing to kill a man he knew to be innocent just to avoid hassle to himself. A truly evil thing to do.

But was he the driving force behind the murder? Nope. He did not have a clue who Jesus was until he was brought before him.

The logical conclusion is that a group of Jewish leaders were the ones primarily responsible for the murder. Does their bloodguilt descend to their progeny for all eternity? Of course not, no more than any other crime.

But focusing on the killers power status as being their main identifier rather than on ethnicity seems very odd to me. By their own words they killed him for what they saw as threats to the Jewish religion and nation, IOW for specifically religious reasons.

14 posted on 07/26/2012 12:51:08 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
Acckkk. Left out an important distinction.

The Gospel accounts are clear that the Jews Jewish leaders were the ones who decided he had to die and who did whatever was necessary to reach that goal.

15 posted on 07/26/2012 12:52:49 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Te贸filo

Another assertion masquerading as a question.


16 posted on 07/26/2012 12:57:30 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; tpanther; ...

Beep!


17 posted on 07/26/2012 1:00:05 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: YHAOS
Another assertion masquerading as a question

And what assertion is that?

~Theo

18 posted on 07/26/2012 1:02:01 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: US Navy Vet
OK EVERYONE get this straight, W/out the Jewish People(G*D’s Chosen) there would be NO Christianity. Without Genesis there in NO Revelation. The Holy Bible ALL OF IT(w/ the Torah, the ENTIRE Old Testemnet and the New Testament)is an intergrated Message System and a Love Letter from the HOLY CREATOR of the UNIVERSE to You and Me!

OK...and this contradicts what I said how?

~Theo

19 posted on 07/26/2012 1:05:06 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Sherman Logan

But focusing on the killers power status as being their main identifier rather than on ethnicity seems very odd to me. By their own words they killed him for what they saw as threats to the Jewish religion and nation, IOW for specifically religious reasons.


Did the Jewish religion condone killing in such a situation. Just asking - I don’t know.


20 posted on 07/26/2012 1:06:42 PM PDT by freedomlover
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To: Leaning Right
This post may have merit. But the end result is that it will drive a wedge between Christians and Jews. And that is not a good thing.

Why will this post "drive a wedge between Christians and Jews"? Please, explain.

~Theo

21 posted on 07/26/2012 1:06:59 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: Te贸filo

You question has the veneer of “Replacement Theology”. Is it?


22 posted on 07/26/2012 1:09:24 PM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Te贸filo

I can’t keep the Law; don’t know of but one person who did. I acknowledge that the Law is good. One day, the Judge will clear it all up; for now, I’m asking Him to help me get it right. Being afraid to ask Him to help me get it right would be ignorant; and so, grace and peace to all who seek Him and His Salvation.


23 posted on 07/26/2012 1:10:14 PM PDT by Twinkie (Obama; fundamentally turning America into Sodom & Gomorrah one EO at a time.)
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To: freedomlover

The Jewish leaders considered him a blasphemer and as such subject to the death penalty under the Law.

And if his claims about himself were not true, then he was a blasphemer.


24 posted on 07/26/2012 1:13:29 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

YOU AND ME AND THE ENTIRE HUMAN RACE put Jesus on that cross. Remember Jesus’ death and resurrection was NOT a tragedy it was an ACHIEVEMNT! He gave us the chance to avoid DAMNATION by accepting HIM as lord and savior and head of our lives!


25 posted on 07/26/2012 1:15:24 PM PDT by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: Te贸filo

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob. 27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”

28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you. 32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out! 34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?” 35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?” 36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen. Romans 11:


26 posted on 07/26/2012 1:16:39 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: US Navy Vet

I agree. But those individuals who conspired to commit and did indeed commit murder, under the provisions of their own Law, are not thereby freed from guilt for their crime.

That Good comes from Evil does not make it any less evil.


27 posted on 07/26/2012 1:19:41 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: US Navy Vet

I would say that Jesus’ death was a tragedy, an achievement and a crime. The three are not mutually exclusive.


28 posted on 07/26/2012 1:21:49 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Fiji Hill
Hows this for pointing at the Gospel?

Deuteronomy 13

King James Version (KJV)

13 If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,

2 And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;

3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul.

29 posted on 07/26/2012 1:27:02 PM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Sherman Logan

If it was part of Jewish Law, fine. If it was part of Roman Law, not so. Which was the case?

Again an honest Q


30 posted on 07/26/2012 1:31:34 PM PDT by freedomlover
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To: US Navy Vet
You question has the veneer of “Replacement Theology”. Is it?

Did you read my conclusion? Just jump there.

~Theo

31 posted on 07/26/2012 1:35:24 PM PDT by Te骹ilo (Visit Vivificat! - http://www.vivificat.org - A Catholic Blog of News, Commentary and Opinion)
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To: freedomlover

In the Sanhedrin trial Christ was condemned for blasphemy under Jewish law, because he made a statement in court the judges saw as tantamount to claiming he was God. (Whether this statement did indeed constitute such a claim is an entirely different question.)

Had the Jewish leaders hauled him before Pilate charged with blasphemy, Pilate and the other Romans would have got a huge laugh out of the situation. Romans just did not care whether someone infringed Jewish law.

So instead the Jewish leaders charged him with political crimes: instructing people not to pay taxes, saying he was a king (therefore in direct confrontation with Caesar), and incitement to riot. The Roman judge condemned him on these charges, despite being fully aware of his innocence.

If Jesus was NOT the Christ, then he was justly condemned for blasphemy by the Jewish courts. He was completely innocent of the charges against him in the Roman court.


32 posted on 07/26/2012 1:41:54 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

I personally do not think Jesus was ministering only to those who were Jews


33 posted on 07/26/2012 1:44:10 PM PDT by 100American (Knowledge is knowing how, Wisdom is knowing when)
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To: Te贸filo
Whether the gospel excludes the Torah is something that chrstians have been arguing about for two millenia, though Paul and the vast majority say that it does. But there is no doubt whatsoever that the Torah does exclude the "gospel" or any other later religion.
34 posted on 07/26/2012 1:55:07 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: 100American

Not exclusively, but he was pretty clear that his ministry was focused heavily on the Jewish nation.

Mark 7

24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.

25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:

26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.

27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.

28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children’s crumbs.

29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.


35 posted on 07/26/2012 1:58:16 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Te贸filo
Are Torah and the Gospel mutually exclusive?

Christianity is the only religion that uses the back 1/4 of its Scriptures to nullify the front 3/4. I would say that if the question is legitimately a question that Christians ask, then they must follow a different Messiah than the one quoted in Matthew 5:

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Torah or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Torah until all is accomplished. Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. " Matthew 5:17-19

What convoluted logic can conclude that "fulfilled" or " accomplished" means nullified? Especially after the direct challenge to DO and to TEACH the commandments therein?
36 posted on 07/26/2012 2:23:15 PM PDT by Tzfat
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To: Te贸filo
...and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer...

Curious - how will the Jews know the Messiah when they see him? It is estimated that Jesus met over 300 OT (Torah) prophecies.

What other signs or markers for Messiah would the Jews accept?

37 posted on 07/26/2012 2:23:27 PM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: Sherman Logan
Did you misread my statement? You say it's odd, but seem to be in agreement that "the Jews" did not kill Jesus.

My contention is that He was killed by the political leadership of the area in power at that time, who just happened to be Jews and Romans.

My point is, as a Christian, I hold no animosity towards the Jewish faith for the crucifixion. I was not trying to be controversial (this time :-).

38 posted on 07/26/2012 2:26:51 PM PDT by 5thGenTexan
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To: Te贸filo
Why will this post "drive a wedge between Christians and Jews"? Please, explain

The post emphasizes differences, not commonalities.

For example, the statement by Maimonides would be seen as offensive by many Christians. And then there is the statement from Cardinal Ratzinger, asking if Christians should "tolerate" Judaism. Many Jews would find that offensive.

But I will say this. The article ended well, with the "Love is the Key" remarks.

39 posted on 07/26/2012 2:27:35 PM PDT by Leaning Right (Why am I carrying this lantern? you ask. I am looking for the next Reagan.)
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To: brooklyn dave

“Judaism dosn’t need the NT”

I think they do need it, but they don’t know it, and wouldn’t admit it if they did.


40 posted on 07/26/2012 3:08:48 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Sherman Logan

The leaders wanted to be rid of Jesus, but the masses turned on Him also. Remember, they had a chance to grant him the Passover pardon, and the crowd picked the Barrabas instead.


41 posted on 07/26/2012 3:13:33 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: YHAOS; betty boop; marron; Alamo-Girl; little jeremiah; metmom; xzins; GodGunsGuts; Fichori; ...

Jesus never said read the bible(old/new) or talmud.. or any other lore..
What he said was if you want to know something/anything go to the Holy Spirit..

Since most people couldn’t read anyway... and there were few if any bibles or even talmuds available..
The call to read the bible is almost totally a modern contrivance.. (since the printing press)

It appears that most/many christians use the Holy Spirit as a doofus.. in Jesus place.. i.e. janitor...goofer..
Who can blame them thats all they mostly have “seen” and “know”..

Well its an idea............ as worthy as any other...


42 posted on 07/26/2012 3:28:08 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: hosepipe
"Jesus never said read the bible(old/new) or talmud.. or any other lore.."

NT Scripture is, of course, post Christ's fleshly presence on Earth. Christ did enjoin us to keep the Commandments, among other instructions, did caution us not to murmur at the ways of Providence, and did make frequent reference to prophecies in the OT.

43 posted on 07/26/2012 3:46:26 PM PDT by YHAOS (you betcha!)
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To: Te贸filo

Do you preach the Gospel to your Jewish friends?

If so don’t expect to convert them.

Preaching/witnessing to them probably won’t go over well.


44 posted on 07/26/2012 5:01:09 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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To: Boogieman

This is what burns my britches.

To put it mildly.


45 posted on 07/26/2012 5:04:39 PM PDT by POWERSBOOTHEFAN (It's hurricane season! Yay!)
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To: xzins
I think that Paul answers the question Romans 11. It's an answer probably neither side wishes to hear. It is this: God Himself placed enmity between the two religions. Why would He do that? God had to harden hearts against Jesus, because only by Jewish rejection of Jesus could His message of salvation go out to gentiles like me.

So, we gentiles are in a bind. On the one hand, the Jews are "enemies of the gospel", and yet their enmity was the price of gentile salvation. Christians must be wary of attacks on the gospel, yet they must love the attacker because without the attacks we wouldn't have been saved.

Paul also makes it clear that this is a great "mystery." I think that he's saying here, in effect, "Nobody is more surprised by the Jewish rejection of Christ as me, Paul. But I've seen after all these years that their rejection is a hidden part of God's plan of salvation for you gentiles. So be glad that Jews have rejected Christ, and while taking care to keep the faith pure, love the Jews as the apple of God's eye." Not an easy thing, but I think it's what Paul was saying all along.

46 posted on 07/26/2012 6:01:33 PM PDT by Gluteus Maximus
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To: Invincibly Ignorant

I appreciate your honest reply. But you should have provided the punishment the Torah demanded for such blasphemy :
5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery. That prophet or dreamer tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.

6 If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love, or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your ancestors have known,

7 gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the land to the other),

8 do not yield to them or listen to them. Show them no pity. Do not spare them or shield them.

9 You must certainly put them to death. Your hand must be the first in putting them to death, and then the hands of all the people. 10 Stone them to death, because they tried to turn you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

And according to Maimonides in his “Epistle to Yemen” that’s exactly what the Sages did :
The first one to have adopted this plan was Jesus the Nazarene, may his bones be ground to dust. He was a Jew because his mother was a Jewess although his father was a Gentile. For in accordance with the principles of our law, a child born of a Jewess and a Gentile, or of a Jewess and a slave, is legitimate. (Yebamot 45a). Jesus is only figuratively termed an illegitimate child. He impelled people to believe that he was a prophet sent by God to clarify perplexities in the Torah, and that he was the Messiah that was predicted by each and every seer. He interpreted the Torah and its precepts in such a fashion as to lead to their total annulment, to the abolition of all its commandments and to the violation of its prohibitions. The sages, of blessed memory, having become aware of his plans before his reputation spread among our people, meted out fitting punishment to him.

Notice how the Romans aren’t even mentioned at all.

And as an added bonus what the Sages did to Saul aka Paul :
Quite some time after, a religion2 appeared the origin of which is traced to him by the descendants of Esau, albeit it was not the intention of this person to establish a new faith. For he was innocuous to Israel as neither individual nor groups were unsettled in their beliefs because of him, since his inconsistencies were so transparent to every one. Finally he was overpowered and put a stop to by us when he fell into our hands, and his fate is well known.


47 posted on 07/26/2012 6:02:51 PM PDT by amazeduser
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To: Tzfat

My $0.02. Jesus was preaching to Jews when he talked about the Law remaining. But the NT releases gentile Christians from the Law. This happens in Acts of the Apostles at the Council of Jerusalem. St. James basically says that gentile converts to Christ need only keep the Law of Noah. So, I see no contradiction there.


48 posted on 07/26/2012 6:07:23 PM PDT by Gluteus Maximus
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To: Gluteus Maximus

I am reminded of Jesus’ words, I think about Luke 20, “you’ll not see me again until you say ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.’”


49 posted on 07/26/2012 6:30:31 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: YHAOS

[ Christ did enjoin us to keep the Commandments, among other instructions, did caution us not to murmur at the ways of Providence, and did make frequent reference to prophecies in the OT. ]

True he did mention the commandments which are common sense anyway.. and other scripture too.. Which had to be done to even relate to the people he was relating too.. meaning rabbi’s and jewish officials.. The “people” mostly didn’t know scripture like the Rabbi’s did anyway.. Having never read scripture.. Especially Talmudic teachings..

Jesus himself was “the Word”.. not what he said but what he did.. As he recounted to John the Baptist.. What am I doing proves Who I am, he said to John.. not what am I saying..

The Holy Spirit is real then and today or he/it is not..
Same thing exists now... same situation..

The Holy Spirit is indeed an “invisible friend” or he is Not..
Many bible worshipers today.. They may deny it but it is true..
Much easier to worship the bible than deal with an “invisible friend”, which could get you called names..

I have an “invisible friend”............ and YOU?..
Second childhood?..... LoL!.... Lets hope!?...


50 posted on 07/26/2012 6:33:55 PM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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