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Sackcloth&Ashes: Obama CONFIRMS COVENANT on TISHA B'Av The 9th of Av A day of CALAMITY!
Youtube ^ | July 27th, 2012

Posted on 07/27/2012 9:21:52 PM PDT by TaraP

Please watch this video!

HAS ISRAEL ENTERED INTO A COVENANT WITH DEATH ON JULY 27, 2012 THE 9TH OF AV??? H.R. 4133: United States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act of 2012 http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr4133/text

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves: Isa 28:15

BREAKING NEWS 7/27 Obama SIGNS bill to STRENGTHEN SECURITY cooperation with Israel H.R. 4133, the United States-Israel Enhanced Security Cooperation Act of 2012 http://www.gop.gov/bill/112/2/hr4133

THIS BILL SPECIFICALLY STATES IT IS MEANT TO ASSIST IN A NEGOTIATED SETTLEMENT OF THE ISRAELI-PALESTINIAN CONFLICT THAT RESULTS IN TWO STATES LIVING SIDE BY SIDE IN PEACE AND SECURITY!!!!


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Religion & Politics; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; israel; lastdays; prophecy

1 posted on 07/27/2012 9:21:56 PM PDT by TaraP
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To: TaraP

It could be the case, especially with Russia moving into the Middle East. What do you think about the Temple being rebuilt?


2 posted on 07/27/2012 9:35:37 PM PDT by Redcitizen (bumper sticker- my Great Dane is smarter than your honor student.)
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To: Redcitizen

I think that will happen with the return of Jesus Christ...


3 posted on 07/27/2012 9:40:59 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: Redcitizen

Daniel’s 70th Week especially concerned “Your People” the Jews, and “Your Holy City” Jerusalem. Before Israel can rebuild the Temple they must first occupy the land of Israel and Jerusalem. And before the Temple can be rebuilt the “Dome of the Rock” must be demolished and the Temple mount area must be purified. The ashes of the “Red Heifer” will permit the cleansing of the future temple. Before this, Islam as a threat to Israel will be eliminated


4 posted on 07/27/2012 9:43:48 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: TaraP

There was that part in the Bible about the AntiChrist placing himself in the Holy of Holies so would this agreement also say something about allowing the Israelis to build a temple?


5 posted on 07/27/2012 9:46:19 PM PDT by Redcitizen (bumper sticker- my Great Dane is smarter than your honor student.)
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To: TaraP

We will find
sooner or later
if Achmed’ll pray
to a glowing crater


6 posted on 07/27/2012 9:47:08 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1284 of our ObamaVacation from reality - Heroes aren't made Frank, they're cornered...)
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To: TaraP
i don't know about this video, and its missing much better points it could be making with their obvious editing skills,

Regardless the USA should tread carefully in any ‘security agreements’ involving dividing/parting the land God returned to his people, using the very means and manners in the law of Moses to do it that he promised he would. We're getting closer to the events outlined in Joel Chapter 3.

As to the 9th of AV,

it should also noted that 70 years after the United States used the first Atomic bomb in war, August 6th, 1945, (effectively receiving a great sword i conjecture) and rose to be the ultimate national power on the Earth on that very day,

it's exactly 25200 days to the 9th of AV in 2014.

What does that mean? I don't know, but if it means anything at all it wont be meant for good,

7 posted on 07/27/2012 9:49:34 PM PDT by captmar-vell
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To: Redcitizen

I am not sure if that info would be revealed to the Masses
as part of an agreement with Israel....

They would have to appease the Arab World with something like that...


8 posted on 07/27/2012 9:49:43 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: TaraP

” the “Dome of the Rock” must be demolished...”

I also read something about the outer courtyard being given over to the Gentiles, so it could be possible that both structures would exist side by side. Israel also occupies the land and they won Jerusalem in 1967.


9 posted on 07/27/2012 9:50:40 PM PDT by Redcitizen (bumper sticker- my Great Dane is smarter than your honor student.)
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To: captmar-vell

August 3rd, 2012 is also the 1290 days from when Obama took office Jan 20th, 2009....

What does it all mean? we shall see, I believe sooner than later.


10 posted on 07/27/2012 9:52:23 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: Redcitizen

I was thinking about that as well...Do you remember this video?

2nd UFO Jerusalem Dome of the Rock Temple Mount UFO video surfaces from 01/28/2011.


11 posted on 07/27/2012 9:55:48 PM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: TaraP

Yes I did take a look at it just now.

Here’s another vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7ZitlrRLgs&feature=related
It made a flash at 1:17. people were surprised.

So what are you saying about the ufo then?


12 posted on 07/27/2012 10:16:54 PM PDT by Redcitizen (bumper sticker- my Great Dane is smarter than your honor student.)
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To: TaraP

I tend to think that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple by Titus, “the prince who is to come” in 70ad. The scripture does say to look to Daniel when you see “the armies” surrounding Israel setting up the abomination that maketh desolate (their pagan symbols). I’ve seen many of the old commentators also make the point that not one Christian died during the war, since they knew the signs to escape. The ancients long understood Daniel as being fulfilled.

I also cannot foresee an event where a man made agreement would build a Temple. And even then, it wouldn’t be the temple of God, it itself being an abomination and a rejection of Jesus Christ. Such a situation would require something pretty severe, perhaps a world war, before a new mindset would allow for a Temple building. Perhaps after a world war, a victorious and orthodox Jewish Israel is given terms and makes an agreement, but I cannot see that happening now.


13 posted on 07/27/2012 10:31:51 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: TaraP

Nope. The EU is the one that Israel has to watch out for.


14 posted on 07/28/2012 12:41:53 AM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: TaraP

“I think that will happen with the return of Jesus Christ...”

He’s already here. Has been. It’s just that we have been asleep and need to be awakened or raised up in order to perceive that we exist within Him and He exists within us.

His great sacrifice earlier was to lower Himself to our level to teach us. Ever since He has been working to help us raise ourselves to His level. That’s the “raised up” event many are awaiting. Just as the servants in the parable of the tares in the wheat, we have been asleep and need to be awakened.


15 posted on 07/28/2012 2:31:12 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: tired&retired

“He’s already here.”

Nope. Thats too eastern/new agey for me. His first coming was to die for lost sinners like you and me, not just to teach. His return is to a place, the Mount of Olives. I’ve been there. The resurrection is bodily, modelled after his own bodily resurrection. And He said his coming would be an eye-catching event that you couldn’t miss. Paul also warned against a “missed coming” heresy that was troubling the church in Thessalonica. In fact, the church has been trained by Scripture to ignore all such misdirections as the devilish ploy of false prophets and to wait instead for the unmistakable coming, where every eye will see him.


16 posted on 07/28/2012 4:56:37 AM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: TaraP
The video shows Obama signing legislation passed by the Congress. It looks like they gave Obama money to use as leverage on Israel for the “peace and security” agreement that divides Israel. This week Carney, Obama’s press secretary, refused to say that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel. That will be part of the end times agreement - to take Jerusalem away.

When that agreement is delivered to Israel and they sign it, that will be more like the agreement imposed by the anti-Christ as foretold in the Bible. I think there will be war before that peace agreement is signed. If Obama can, he'll want to wait until after the election to kick that war into gear.

17 posted on 07/28/2012 5:44:44 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Springfield Reformer

The Messiah must be one heck of a big dude in your interpretation.... As He can be seen everywhere!

Matthew 24: 26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.


18 posted on 07/29/2012 6:03:12 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: tired&retired

Big, eh? Well, in all the years I’ve been hanging around and reading people who understand his second coming in a bodily and literal sense, you would be the first I’ve ever heard anywhere to base it on bigness. So I think we can dispense with that straw man, eh? Besides, there are some alternatives to that which make much more sense.

But as with any challenging problem, you have to start with the known and work your way to the unknown, and what we know for certain is that the Bible teaches explicitly that, yes, every eye will see him coming in the clouds:

Revelation 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Note the part about the wailing. It’s not exactly your warm and fuzzy inner revelation thing, is it. He comes as King, to dethrone all other pretenders to his crown, and as Lord, to throw down all competing claims to deity. People will not like this. An unredeemed soul is at war with God, and the Second Coming is the end of that war, a bitter pill to swallow for those who have sought to be their own savior and their own god.

As for what exactly every eye will see when he does come in the clouds, the angels at his ascension give us a clue:

Acts 1:11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He went up bodily in a cloud, and his return will be “in like manner.” Visibly. But how, you ask. Ask also then what is the sign of the Son of Man:

Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What sort of sign is this, that it will cause such mourning in the earth? And will it be seen by all at once in a moment, or over a period of hours, such that from sunrise to sunset, across the entire globe, everyone will catch a glimpse of the glory of the approaching King? These details are unknown to me, but I do know this: God doesn’t lie, and when he comes, it will not be the sort of thing you could possibly miss.

Peace,

SR


19 posted on 07/29/2012 2:20:45 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Thank you for the excellent scripture lesson.

My comment was a tongue in cheek one. About 25 years ago I died and came back. Had meningitis. During that time I met and experienced Jesus. Have had a personal relationship with him ever since.

To me, He is here right now and it is experiential. Yes, the Bible is very accurate, I just see it a little bit different than most.


20 posted on 07/29/2012 6:46:45 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: TaraP

Ahem. Frday was not Tish`ah Be’Av. Tish`ah Be’Av fell on Shabbat this year, which means the fast was postponed to sunday the tenth of ‘Av.


21 posted on 07/29/2012 6:51:45 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

People of the thread... (like People of the Book...) Why not listen to what a Jew says about the Jewish Holy Temple... G-d himself is building the 3rd Temple and will put it in its place—and will take care of the, ahem, demolition and foundation laying. Don’t go inciting any violence now....

How to we hasten this? When the Jews do teshuva (colloquially, “repentance” but actually a much deeper concept of returning to G-d and His commandments... 613 for Jews, 7 for non-Jews. Go ask your local Orthodox rabbi, or give money to his causes.)

This has been a public service announcement...back to my first meal in 25 hours...


22 posted on 07/29/2012 7:02:38 PM PDT by Phinneous
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To: RaisingCain
I tend to think that Daniel’s 70 Weeks were fulfilled with the destruction of the Temple by Titus, “the prince who is to come” in 70ad.

Matt 24 makes it clear that the events of Daniels 70 weeks culminate in the second coming of Christ ... that certainly did not happen in 70 AD.

23 posted on 07/30/2012 7:04:36 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: dartuser

“Matt 24 makes it clear that the events of Daniels 70 weeks culminate in the second coming of Christ ... that certainly did not happen in 70 AD.”


Matthew and Luke also make it clear that the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem were the abomination of desolation, and that the prophecy applies to that time when “not one stone” of the temple should be left standing. It is an odd thing for God to give them a prophecy, and expect them to see the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and the horrible judgment that fell there, without thinking back to Christ’s prediction! Especially when Jerusalem experienced so many signs and wonders leading up to the destruction, not just in the form of the Apostles and Christians performing miracles, but also as those reported by Titus and Josephus, and the destruction itself being incredibly dreadful and long lasting.

Luk 21:20-28 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (26) Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Until the “time of the gentiles” be fulfilled is an important clue. While the language can be applied both to dreadful national judgments and the second coming of Christ, it is obvious that the scripture immediately referred to the destruction of the temple, and that we now are in “the times of the gentiles.” For almost 2,000 years Israel was “trampled” under foot by the gentiles, and only recently came again into their hands, though the Muslims still possess the Temple Mount and Israel is universally persecuted.


24 posted on 07/30/2012 8:01:02 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: dartuser

“Matt 24 makes it clear that the events of Daniels 70 weeks culminate in the second coming of Christ ... that certainly did not happen in 70 AD.”


Matthew and Luke also make it clear that the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem were the abomination of desolation, and that the prophecy applies to that time when “not one stone” of the temple should be left standing. It is an odd thing for God to give them a prophecy, and expect them to see the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, and the horrible judgment that fell there, without thinking back to Christ’s prediction! Especially when Jerusalem experienced so many signs and wonders leading up to the destruction, not just in the form of the Apostles and Christians performing miracles, but also as those reported by Titus and Josephus, and the destruction itself being incredibly dreadful and long lasting.

Luk 21:20-28 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. (21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. (22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. (23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. (24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. (25) And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; (26) Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. (27) And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (28) And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

Until the “time of the gentiles” be fulfilled is an important clue. While the language can be applied both to dreadful national judgments and the second coming of Christ, it is obvious that the scripture immediately referred to the destruction of the temple, and that we now are in “the times of the gentiles.” For almost 2,000 years Israel was “trampled” under foot by the gentiles, and only recently came again into their hands, though the Muslims still possess the Temple Mount and Israel is universally persecuted.

Whatever the case, looking back to expect a rebuilt Jewish temple and sacrifices strikes me as incredibly unlikely.


25 posted on 07/30/2012 8:01:51 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain
Especially when Jerusalem experienced so many signs and wonders leading up to the destruction ...

What you cited is not what is in the text. Apostolic healings does not constitute the signs in the text of Matthew 24. We are talking about cosmic signs in the sun, moon, stars ... global cosmic signs. Those signs are related to the second coming of Christ.

Are you really prepared to claim that the second coming occurred in 70 AD?

Honestly ... preterism is a house of cards and is the easiest eschatology to dispense with out of hand ...

The date of the book of Revelation is the kingpin ... and Hitchcock has dealt with Gentry so thoroughly that there is no longer any need to look through all the preterist arguments in Matt, Luke, et. al. ... preterist stands or falls on the date of the book of Revelation ... and it fell almost ten years ago with Hitchcocks dissertation.

Gentry's thesis no doubt fulfills the old saying "invention is the mother of necessity."

Reference:
Hitchcock, Mark L, "A Defense of the Dominitian Date of the Book of Revelation," PhD dissertation, Dallas Theological Seminary, 2005.

Google it ... its out there for free.

26 posted on 07/31/2012 5:04:08 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: SaraJohnson; F15Eagle; GiovannaNicoletta; Redcitizen

Something I believe monumental is happening with the dates, we can now decipher in Biblical Prophecy having to do with Obama and Israel.....

Israel signed an agreement with Israel on July 27th...

From the day Obama took office Jan 20th, 2009 to August 3rd, 2012 is *1290 Days*...45 days later on Sept 17th, 2012 is 1335 days...Rosh HaShanah in 2012 will start on Monday, the 17th of September and will continue for 2 days until Tuesday, the 18th of September....

Daniel 12:12

Blessed is the one who waits for and reaches the end of the 1,335 days.

Revelation 13:5
Revelation 13:5 The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months.

From Jan 20th 2009 to August 3rd, 2012
Obama will have been in office 42 months and 14 days...

In the book of Daniel of the Old Testament, the prophet Daniel speaks about a period of painful wait of 45 days declaring blissful who will pass it and reaches the end of this period. In the chapter 12 verse 11, he speaks that 1290 days will be passed between the establishment of the idolatrous cult by the Antichrist until the end the world. Then, following this chronological indication of the verse 11, he adds this other to the verse 12: “Blissed is he who perseveres and attains 1335 days”: 1335-1290=45 days.

Does this mean anything? IMO it looks to me the END is in sight,and maybe the Rapture of the Church in the coming days....

Just something to think and pray upon!

Maranatha Jesus!


27 posted on 07/31/2012 9:02:38 AM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: F15Eagle; Zionist Conspirator; GiovannaNicoletta
ONE MORE THING THE NUMBER 45 ENDS with A-D-A-M
28 posted on 07/31/2012 9:18:04 AM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: TaraP
I think what you're trying to say is that the gemmatria for the name Adam ('alef-dalet-mem) is 45.
29 posted on 07/31/2012 9:22:37 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Yes I am ZC...Thank you...:)


30 posted on 07/31/2012 9:28:32 AM PDT by TaraP (On Christ the Solid rock I stand, all other ground is sinking sand.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

True


31 posted on 07/31/2012 10:27:27 AM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: TaraP
Thank you for the ping, TaraP!

The Scripture states that the Antichrist will confirm a covenant with Israel for seven years. This means that there will be some kind of "peace" deal already written, or agreed upon and that this world dictator will confirm the "covenant" which has already been set up.

This means that the Antichrist will be making his appearance on the world scene to confirm this treaty and the Church is gone before the Antichrist comes to power.

So the world is starting to get the brilliant idea of "peace treaties" that involve Israel. What a surprise. We need to keep an eye on this because if it results in some sort of seven year contract, then the Church will be out of here very soon.

The signing of the seven-year "covenant with death", as God puts it, starts the Tribulation. The fact that such "peace" treaties are now being bandied about only reinforces the lateness of the hour.

The window of opportunity for salvation is closing very quickly.

32 posted on 07/31/2012 4:01:52 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: dartuser

“What you cited is not what is in the text. Apostolic healings does not constitute the signs in the text of Matthew 24. We are talking about cosmic signs in the sun, moon, stars ... global cosmic signs. Those signs are related to the second coming of Christ.”


You ignored the part about “until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.” IOW, that has not yet been quite settled yet, obviously. And there were, in fact, signs and wonders in Jerusalem prior to its destruction. For example, they saw and heard armies fighting in the skies above Jerusalem prior to the siege. There was a comet which hung over the city for a year in the form of a sword. The massive doors to the temple were seen to open on their own. A voice was heard from within, saying, “Let us depart hence,” and a great rumbling occurred. There was a man who, for seven years if I recall correctly, cried “Woe! Woe! Woe to Jerusalem and to the Holy House!” up until he was killed by a Roman catapult. These things were reported by Josephus, and Titus reported a few of them.

I do believe Christ answers the Apostles questions about “the end of the world.” But he also answers them about what will soon come to pass, which is the destruction of the Jewish nation, the end of the old testament age, the scattering of the Jews to a new and long lasting bondage, and a promise that Israel will be trampled under foot by the gentiles “until the time of the gentiles be fulfilled.” All of these things have come to pass. But you choose to believe the entirety of the Prophecy refers only to some future Temple and future Jewish tribulation! Even when Christ said specifically that there would be those who stood there who would not taste of death until they saw Christ coming! It is because that anyone who knew of the events of Jerusalem, the horrors and the tribulations that befell that ancient city, none would doubt that it was the wrath of God, the “coming of the son of man in judgment.” That does not mean that Christ will not return as promised in Revelation, and literally fulfill the undoing of the world, but this prophecy applied both to those present Jews (the bloody moon and tempestuous waters referring to calamities in civil government and chaos among the people) and to the end of the world as well. Daniel uses the same language referring to giant beasts coming out of the water, and stars falling from the sky, but these are spiritual images with a significance beyond the obvious.

“Are you really prepared to claim that the second coming occurred in 70 AD?”


Are you really prepared to claim that God did not rain down his wrath of Israel starting in 66ad, and ending in 73 with the fall of Masada, and that a continuing desolation of that land and the Jewish people around the world has not gone on almost from that time to the present, exactly as predicted by Christ who said that Jerusalem would be trodded down by the Gentiles “until the time of the Gentiles be fulfilled”?

Are you really prepared to claim that Jesus did NOT answer the Apostle’s question, and referred everything only to the end of the world, rather than systematically answering the question in the usual Prophetic style?

“Honestly ... preterism is a house of cards and is the easiest eschatology to dispense with out of hand ...”


I have heard of Preterism, but I have never studied its particular dogmas. I don’t know much about it, though I do read lots of older commentaries. None agree entirely with the modern ideas, which I suspect come from not reading Josephus and the older commentaries!


33 posted on 07/31/2012 7:29:19 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain
Before this discussion goes beyond the point of being edifying, I will leave you with a kind of exercise.

Take the time to do a very careful study of Matt 24 alongside Luke 21. When you study them, do not try to harmonize them at all ... but rather note the differences between those two discourses, not the similarities.

34 posted on 08/01/2012 6:52:13 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: RaisingCain
The belief that all prophecies relating to the return of Christ, including those in Matthew, the rest of the Gospels, and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ has been discredited and debunked so many times that the word "preterist" evokes the same derision as the words "flat earth".

Dr. Mark Hitchcock effectively buried preterism so far in the ground that a replay of Noah's flood couldn't bring it to the surface. If you are interested in Biblical truth, here is a talk he gave on the facts of the false doctrine of preterism and how Scripture and historical facts blow that silly, ignorant belief into a million pieces. The message begins at about the 5:36 mark:

A.D. 95- Defending the Traditional Date of Revelation

35 posted on 08/01/2012 3:33:09 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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The first sentence should read:

The belief that all prophecies relating to the return of Christ, including those in Matthew, the rest of the Gospels, and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ took place in 70 AD has been discredited and debunked so many times that the word "preterist" evokes the same derision as the words "flat earth".

36 posted on 08/01/2012 3:37:15 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; dartuser

“The belief that all prophecies relating to the return of Christ, including those in Matthew, the rest of the Gospels, and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ has been discredited and debunked so many times that the word “preterist” evokes the same derision as the words “flat earth”.”


And, exactly, what have I said that is Preterism? Defend your views with your own words, and address what I have said and not what you have imagined. This sentence of yours does not even have a complete thought. It ends at “the belief that all...” what belief? It does not go forward from there. A word was missed.


37 posted on 08/01/2012 6:04:12 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

:The belief that all prophecies relating to the return of Christ, including those in Matthew, the rest of the Gospels, and the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ took place in 70 AD has been discredited and debunked so many times that the word “preterist” evokes the same derision as the words “flat earth”


Oops, now I see your entire sentence. I only looked at my ping list before.

I specifically deny this, and so do all the old commentators I have ever read.

I suspect there is a thing called Preterism, which is another form of ignorance not unlike the same modern dogmas which deny that there was any fulfillment of Christ’s words in 70ad.

Matthew Henry, Darby and others do not hold to these views. Not to Preterism, and not to the modern ideas.


38 posted on 08/01/2012 6:09:52 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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To: RaisingCain
This is a preterist statement:

But you choose to believe the entirety of the Prophecy refers only to some future Temple and future Jewish tribulation! Even when Christ said specifically that there would be those who stood there who would not taste of death until they saw Christ coming!

If you had listened to the video link I gave you, you would have learned that when Jesus said:

“Truly I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom." (Matthew 16:28)

He is referring to His transfiguration, not His second coming, as we see when we keep reading in the book of Matthew:

“And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James and John… and led them up a high mountain apart. And He was transfigured before them, and His face shown like the sun and His garments became white as light. And behold! there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with Him.” (Matthew 17:1-2)

And Peter reinforces that they saw Jesus demonstrate His kingdom at the transfiguration:

“For we did not follow cleverly devised myths when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ but we were eyewitnesses of His Majesty. For when He received honor and glory from God the Father and the voice was borne to Him by the Majestic Glory, ’this is my Beloved Son with whom I am well pleased,’ we heard this voice borne from heaven, for we were with Him on the holy mountain.” (2 Peter 1:16-18)

So the statement made by Christ in Matthew 16 was not a fulfillment of His literal second coming, but a reference to His transfiguration which took place and to which there were witnesses.

And while Jesus did prophecy the destruction of the second temple, and while that was fulfilled in 70 AD, the Bible clearly teaches that a new temple — which will be called The Third Temple — will be built in the future.

The Third Temple will exist during the Great Tribulation. Daniel refers to this temple when he says that "the prince who is to come" (the Antichrist) will enter it and stop the sacrifices in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27). The Apostle Paul mentions it when he declares that the "man of lawlessness" will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). The Third Temple is also mentioned in the book of Revelation when John is told to measure it — a symbolic way of telling him to assess its spiritual condition (Revelation 11:1-2).

The Bible does not reveal exactly when the third temple will be built. All it says for certain is that the temple will be in existence when the Antichrist reveals himself (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4), and that will be in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27).

So, like I said, there is neither Scriptural proof nor historical evidence for preterism. Preterism is generally the fairy tale that is required to attempt to make other false doctrines, like postmillennialism and amillennialism, work for those who don't want to believe the Scripture as God wrote it.

There is not one verse in the Bible which states that the events of the Tribulation which Jesus gave us in Matthew and Revelation happened in 70 AD and not one book ever written that states that the events detailed in Matthew and Revelation have ever happened in the history of the world.

39 posted on 08/02/2012 2:59:05 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

“If you had listened to the video link I gave you, you would have learned that when Jesus said:

“Truly I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in His Kingdom.” (Matthew 16:28)

He is referring to His transfiguration, not His second coming, as we see when we keep reading in the book of Matthew:”


One does not need to watch a video to have someone read scripture on your behalf.

As for the quote, it is a strange thing to say “there are some standing here who will not taste of death” to see an event that was literally about to happen. If it is as you say, he would have said “all” or maybe “most,” perchance someone died of a random heart attack within the next hour or two.

It makes more sense if one is speaking of an event that wouldn’t happen until 70ad, to which only a few standing there would have lived to see, such as the Apostle John.

You are trapped, however, in this idea that the entire passage refers to the end of the world and destruction of the universe, and in accusing me of holding that all of it was fulfilled in 70ad. You have not really addressed my previous posts.

“The Third Temple will exist during the Great Tribulation. Daniel refers to this temple when he says that “the prince who is to come” (the Antichrist) will enter it and stop the sacrifices in the middle of the Tribulation (Daniel 9:27).”


Christ’s ministry was for 3 1/2 years, which in the midst of it “caused the sacrifice and the oblation” to cease with his death on the cross and the tearing of the veil. This seems to me the most natural fulfillment of the scripture. Others, however, say it was Titus, as the war began in 66ad and ended in 73, though the destruction of the temple wasn’t in the middle of the weak.

“The Apostle Paul mentions it when he declares that the “man of lawlessness” will profane the temple by entering it and declaring himself to be God (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4)”


2Th 2:3-4 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The question is, would a third temple built in Jerusalem actually be “The Temple of God?” if one understands it as literally being God’s house? After Christ’s crucifixion, none of the signs (such as the scarlet being made wide) that accompanied the Jewish sacrifice for sins were known to occur any more. The Jews were in such utter apostasy that not even the High Priest at the time of the Temple’s destruction was even legally (by God’s law) a member of the Priesthood. So, was the Temple still acknowledged by God to be His house, even as He utterly destroyed it? And would another Temple being made, performing vain sacrifices which Christ has already taken care of, ever be called The Temple of God? It itself would be an abomination of desolation, according to the biblical meaning of the phrase, an insult to Christ Himself and a crying out for vengeance.

Therefore, this scripture cannot refer to A Third Temple, as if only a legitimate Temple can fulfill it. It refers to this man putting himself above all gods. The old Puritans used to refer this scripture to the Papacy. Others to Muhammad and the Islamics. Whoever it will be, this person will NOT be sitting in the actual Temple of God.

“The Third Temple is also mentioned in the book of Revelation when John is told to measure it — a symbolic way of telling him to assess its spiritual condition (Revelation 11:1-2).”


And where is the temple of God?
Rev 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven...

Here is Albert Barnes on these passages:

“And there was given me - He does not say by whom, but the connection would seem to imply that it was by the angel. All this is of course to be regarded as symbolical. The representation undoubtedly pertains to a future age, but the language is such as would be properly addressed to one who had been a Jew, and the imagery employed is such as he would be more likely to understand than any other. The language and the imagery are, therefore, taken from the temple, but there is no reason to suppose that it had any literal reference to the temple, or even that John would so understand it. Nor does the language used here prove that the temple was standing at the time when the book was written; for, as it is symbolical, it is what would be employed whether the temple were standing or not, and would be as likely to be used in the one case as in the other. It is such language as John, educated as a Jew, and familiar with the temple worship, would be likely to employ if he designed to make a representation pertaining to the church.”

“And while Jesus did prophecy the destruction of the second temple, and while that was fulfilled in 70 AD, the Bible clearly teaches that a new temple — which will be called The Third Temple — will be built in the future.”


Almost the entire passage refers to that fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy, as well as stretching forward to Christ’s eventual coming to destroy the entire world at the end of time. We are now in “the time of the gentiles” as also predicted, wherein Jerusalem would be trodded down until the times are fulfilled.

To further support the idea that the Apostles understood “the coming of the son of man” in judgment as being fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, here is Peter quoting Joel:

Act 2:16-23 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; (17) And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (18) And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: (19) And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: (20) The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: (21) And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. (22) Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know: (23) Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Peter here says boldly that these “ARE THE LAST DAYS” and links them with Joel! He mentions Christ’s miracles, their sings and wonders, and links them all RIGHT THERE in THAT time, not 2,000 years hence. And this he did with the Holy Spirit having just baptized and empowered Him!

So what does the last days mean? For the modernist who does not understand these Jewish idioms, it can only refer to the end of the Jewish dispensation. That is not to say that Christ is not going to return and put an end to THIS dispensation, or that Revelation has already been fulfilled (clearly it has not). It merely means that one must be cognizant of the Jewish understanding of these prophecies, which pointed both to the end of Israel and the end of the world.

“So, like I said, there is neither Scriptural proof nor historical evidence for preterism. Preterism is generally the fairy tale that is required to attempt to make other false doctrines, like postmillennialism and amillennialism, work for those who don’t want to believe the Scripture as God wrote it.”


You falsely accuse me of these heresies. Would you accuse Matthew Henry and all the other commentators or leaders of the reformation of heresy also, when they themselves held that Christ spoke of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Roman armies in 70ad, as well as the end of the world?


40 posted on 08/02/2012 6:44:48 PM PDT by RaisingCain
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