Skip to comments.When He Stopped Believing [Mormon exodus underway]
Posted on 08/05/2012 12:37:13 PM PDT by Colofornian
I never thought it would be me. Yet there I was, sitting across the bed from my husband while he told me that he no longer had a testimony that the gospel was true.
...my husband just didnt believe in the gospel anymore. He didnt even know if God really existed.
This wasnt supposed to happen to menot my husband, not my marriage. In my naiveté, when I had read or heard of accounts where a spouse turned away from the Church, I thought, Thank goodness that would never happen to our temple marriage...."
...Despite the abundance of spiritual experiences that we had shared since our courtship, the daily personal and couple prayers, the faithful fulfillment of every calling, full tithes, generous fast offerings...it was gone. My husband admitted that he no longer believed. He had no desire to attend church beyond helping me with the kids. And he no longer wanted to pay tithing...
...The one desire I had maintained stronger than any other in my life was to have an eternal marriage...I had done everything I could in my life to live worthily, to marry with unmistakable surety, to keep my covenants, to attend the temple, and to dedicate my life and my home to the Lord. Would Heavenly Father really deny me the righteous desire I longed for the most, when I had done everything He asked to attain it?
Initially, I was upset that I had been deprived of the spiritual blessings I had sought so diligently to obtain....the opportunity to seek a celestial marriage is still right in front of me...I have realized that either I can focus on what my husbands choices have taken from our temple marriage, or I can strive even more to develop a celestial relationship with him...
(Excerpt) Read more at lds.org ...
There were NUMEROUS comments to the fact that Salon published that piece...I wonder if those same posters will come on here to complain that the Mormon church is publishing pieces about people leaving their church???
Here's a thread from Saturday -- also about Mormons finding conflict within their church about their beliefs: Different takes on Mormon faith from Republican rivals [Mormon exodus underway]
From the official Lds church publication: ...the opportunity to seek a celestial marriage is still right in front of me; ...I have realized that either I can focus on what my husbands choices have taken from our temple marriage, or I can strive even more to develop a celestial relationship with him...
How important is it for a Mormon woman to have a "celestial marriage?"
Well, per Mormonism, 'tis the very difference between living forever in the presence of Heavenly Father -- or not.
'Tis the very difference between living forever as husband and wife -- or not.
'Tis the very difference between living as a goddess and god managing your own planet -- or not.
'Tis the very difference between living forever with your children, grand-children, great grand-children, etc. -- or not.
'Tis the very difference of giving birth to billions of spirit children (what Lds call "eternal increase") on your own planet -- or not.
Don't believe me? (Then review the quotes in the next post)
For a related post, see what Mormon official teachings say about unmarrieds: The Latter-day Saint Concept of Marriage [Unmarrieds 'not whole...complete' - per Mitt's profs]:
I am obviously morally obligated to vote for the Muslim.
* "To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we MUST enter into 'the new and everlasting covenant of marriage' and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory." (True to the Faith, p. 93, 2004)
* "Brethren, please remember: The highest degree of glory is available to you only through that order of the priesthood linked to the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" (Lds "apostle" Russell M. Nelson, "Honoring the Priesthood" Ensign (Conference Edition), May 1993, p. 40
* "LDS doctrine teaches that there is a Mother in Heaven as well as a Father, that Eve's eating of the forbidden fruit furthered God's Plan of Salvation (see Fall of Adam), that women must perform certain essential priesthood ordinances in the temple, and that the highest order of the priesthood and the complete blessings of exaltation are available only to the married couple; neither can enter exaltation without the other" (Encylopedia of Mormonism 2:490)
In other words, being that "exaltation" & the "celestial" kingdom are the ONLY degrees of glory in which a person can live together with Heavenly Father
Source: "Do you uphold your husband before God as your lord? 'What!--my husband to be my lord?' I ask, Can you get into the celestial kingdom without him? Have any of you been there? You will remember that you never got into the celestial kingdom without the aid of your husband...No woman will get into the celestial kingdom, except her husband receives her, if she is worthy to have a husband; and if not, somebody will receive her as a servant" (Lds "apostle" Erastus Snow, Oct. 4, 1857, JoD 5:291)
Lds prophet Joseph F. Smith:
*...this doctrine of the eternal union of the husband and wife and of plural marriage, is one of the most important doctrines ever revealed to man in any age of the world. Without it man would come to a full stop; without it we never could be exalted to associate with and become gods neither could we attain to the power of eternal increase... (Joseph F. Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 21, pp. 9-10)
Lds "prophet" Joseph Fielding Smith (a different "prophet" than Joseph F. Smith):
* So if you want to enter into exaltation and become as God, that is a son of God or a daughter of God, and receive a fulness of the kingdom, then you have got to abide in his law-not merely the law of marriage but all that pertains to the new and everlasting covenant... (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, Vol. II, p. 63)
Why the **** in Condition #1 sub-title above?
Well, to help answer that, see this a related post where you can see what Mormon official teachings say about unmarrieds: The Latter-day Saint Concept of Marriage [Unmarrieds 'not whole...complete' - per Mitt's profs]:
In July 2011, the LDS Ensign edited out those key dozen words in this graph: "The Latter-day Saints believe that in order to attain the best in life and the greatest happiness in this world and for the next, men and women must be married in the temple for time and eternity. Without the sealing ordinances of temple marriage, man cannot achieve a godlike stature or receive a fulness of joy. "
So where did Brown -- one of the three highest-ranking Lds hierarchists thruout the 1960s -- specifically address "unmarrieds" there?
The original paragraph was published by Bookcraft, Inc. (Salt Lake City) in 1960, when Brown wrote "You and Your Marriage"...One chapter (pp. 12-19 of that book) focused on "The Latter-Day Saint Concept of Marriage." This chapter was later lifted to be included as a chapter in a 1968 book published by Deseret Book Company, owned by the Mormon church. That book, The Latter-day Saint Family: A Book of Selected Readings, was compiled/edited by Dr. Blaine R. Porter, Professor of Child Development and Family Relationships @ BYU. [Porter was a prof during the few years that Mitt Romney attended BYU]
When you turn to p. 198 of the book published by Deseret and edited by BYU prof Porter, we see the dozen words that the Ensign editors edited out in 2011: Allow me to cite the entire graph as published by Brown in 1960 and by Deseret Book Company in 1968 [the missing dozen words are bold-faced]: The Latter-day Saints believe that in order to attain the best in life and the greatest happiness in this world and for the next, men and women must be married in the temple for time and eternity. Without the sealing ordinances of temple marriage, man cannot achieve a godlike stature or receive a fulness of joy because the unmarried person is NOT a whole person, is NOT complete."
Do you hear that unmarrieds? Do you hear that singles?
The Mormon church was teaching throughout the 1960s (1960-1968) that unmarrieds were NOT whole people...NOT complete people!!!!
Lds 'scripture' Doctrines & Covenants excerpted verses from chapter 76:
Note as you read about "church of the Firstborn": Lds says this title applies ONLY to the mainstream Lds church...Per both D&C 1:30 and this note by a BYU professor:
Exaltation is the greatest of all the gifts and attainments possible. It is available ONLY in the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom and is RESERVED for members of the Church of the Firstborn. This exalted status, called eternal life, is available to be received by a man and a wife. It means not only living in Gods presence, but receiving power to do as God does, including the power to bear children after the resurrection. (Encyclopedia of Mormonism, 2:479)
Doctrines & Covenants 76:
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christs, and Christ is Gods.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
...62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
... 92 And thus we saw the glory of the celestial, which excels in all thingswhere God, even the Father, reigns upon his throne forever and ever;
...94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn
...95 And he makes them equal [to Himself] in power, and in might, and in dominion
NOTE: Clarification: The following verses are about the so-called Mormon "Terrestrial" world -- the supposed "middle" degree of glory where honest Christians and the like are supposed to be able to go...note that they won't receive "the fulness of the Father" -- which Mormon general authorities teach means "never" being able to live in Heavenly Father's presence:
...71 And again, we saw the terrestrial world, and behold and lo, these are they who are of the terrestrial, whose glory differs from that of the church of the Firstborn who have received the fulness of the Father
...77 These are they who receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father.
NOTE: Clarification: The following verses are about the so-called Mormon 'Telestial' world -- the supposed "lowest" degree of glory...in which consists people sent to a temporary "hell" -- a sort of spirit prison...these people will supposedly be offered the Mormon "gospel" by spirit missionaries as a sort of "get out of eternal jail" card: D&C 76:
...102 Last of all, these all are they who will not be gathered with the saints, to be caught up unto the church of the Firstborn, and received into the cloud.
103 These are they who are liars, and sorcerers, and adulterers, and whoremongers, and whosoever loves and makes a lie.
104 These are they who suffer the wrath of God on earth.
105 These are they who suffer the vengeance of eternal fire.
106 These are they who are cast down to hell and suffer the wrath of Almighty God, until the fulness of times, when Christ shall have subdued all enemies under his feet...
...109 But behold, and lo, we saw the glory and the inhabitants of the telestial world, that they were as innumerable as the stars in the firmament of heaven, or as the sand upon the seashore...
...112 And they shall be servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end. .
8th Lds 'prophet' George Albert Smith:
"There are some people who have supposed that if we are quickened telestial bodies that eventually, throughout the ages of eternity, we will continue to progress until we will find our place in the celestial kingdom, but the scriptures and revelations of God have said that those who are quickened telestial bodies CANNOT COME where God and Christ dwell, worlds without end." (Conference Report, October 1945, p.172)
BYU Prof Daniel H. Ludlow, A Companion to Your Study of the New Testament, p. 311:
"There are, of course, three kingdoms of glory to which resurrected persons will go--the celstial, terrestrial, and telestial...Of these three, ONLY the celestial is the kingdom of God; it is the kingdom RESERVED for the saints who obey the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Great hosts of persons will go to the other kingdoms and hence will not attain salvation in the full gospel sense."
Ludlow also addressed this in editing the Encyclopedia of Mormonism 1:368: "The Celestial Kingdom is RESERVED for those who receive a testimony of...
...Jesus and fully embrace the [Mormon] gospel; that is, they have faith in Jesus Christ, repent of their sins, are baptized by immersion by one having authority
[only in the Mormon church],
receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands
[only Mormon priesthood hands],
and endure in righteousness. All who attain this kingdom 'shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever (D&C 76:62)."
Two candidates with two false views of god. The one who’s buddies fly planes into buildings and believe their god isn’t coming back until they kill everyone who doesn’t believe what they do, isn’t ever going to get my vote.
It is a lesson as to why a person’s worldview matters, though.
(Yeah, you were one of those complaining about the Salon source for a similar article last time...go ahead...be consistent...start tearing into the Mormon church as well...be sure to comment about the Mormon church’s “exclusion” like you did Salon)
Not only is the "Mormon gospel" NOT good news (it's legalism thru and thru), but for you Mormons who have stopped believing in the Mormon god...have you ever thought that perhaps it was the Mormon vision of the Mormon god that turned you off to him?
(Perhaps the problem isn't simply with you)
I mean...I'm an "athiest" when it comes to believing in the Mormon god as well...
Why should we believe in...
...one god who is but among thousands/millions/billions? [When even the Book of Mormon never taught that?]
...a flesh-and-body man living on another planet (Mormon Doctrine, p. 321) who got the "god job" -- as Lds teach that a "council of gods" appointed the "god of this planet."
...a god who was ne'er divine going back to eternal past?
...a god who even sinned?
...a creature-god who "died" due to his sin?
In comparison, have you examined closely THE Ultimate God of the Bible?
(I'll document some of the above in posts that follow)
Wow, sounds just like Mother Theresa’s problems.
Joseph Smith excerpt #1:
"In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it." (Joseph Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5, 1844)
Joseph Smith excerpt #2:
"In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through--Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed ONE God for us..." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 372)
According to Smith's worldview, "the heads of the Gods appointed one God for us." [Why, how nice, Mitt: You worship a god chosen by a bureaucracy at a committee meeting.]
From the OFFICIAL Mormon teachings about Christianity: In the early centuries of the Christian era...Many men...sought the creation process to make a God which all could accept....they put together an incomprehensible God idea (Kimball, Teachings of Spencer W. Kimball, 425).
Oh...so Christianity "changed" the idea that God and men are of the "same race?" That the Mormon god was "saved?" And that if he needed to be saved, that would mean the Mormon god was a "sinner?"
God and man are of the same race, differing only in their degrees of advancement (Lds apostle John A. Widtsoe, Rational Theology, 1915, p. 61)
According to revelation, however, he is a personal Being, a holy and exalted Man, a glorified, resurrected Personage having a tangible body of flesh and bones, an anthropomorphic Entity, the personal Father of the spirits of all men. (Bruce R. Mconkie, Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 250)
The doctrine that God was once a man and has progressed to become a God is unique to this Church. (Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young, 1997, p. 34)
We offend again in our doctrine that men are of the same race with the divine personages we call Gods. Great stress is laid upon the idea that we believe that 'as man is, God once was, and as God now is, man may become.' The world usually shouts 'blasphemy' and 'sacrilege' at one when he talks of such a possibility (B.H. Roberts, 1992, Defense of The Faith and The Saints 2:570)
The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same. (Lds apostle Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64)
When you can thus feel, then you may begin to think that you can find out something about God, and begin to learn who he is. He is our Fatherthe Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. (Brigham Young, Oct. 8, 1859, JoD, 7:333)
It appears ridiculous to the world, under their darkened and erroneous traditions, that God has been once a finite being; and yet we are not in such close communion with him as many have supposed, (BY, Oct. 8, 1859, JoD, 7:333)
The idea that the Lord our God is not a personage of tabernacle is entirely a mistaken notion. He was once a man. (BY, Feb. 23, 1862, JoD, 9:286)
What, is it possible that the Father of Heights, the Father of our spirits, could reduce himself and come forth like a man? Yes, he was once a man like you and I are and was once on an earth like this...He had his father and his mother and he has been exalted through his faithfulness, and he is beomce Lord of all. (The Essential BY, p. 138)
Knowing what we know concerning God our Father-- that he is a personal being; that he has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as our own; that he is an exalted and glorified being; that he was once a man and dwelt on an earth and knowing that this knowledge was had by many of the ancients, should we be surprised to find legends and myths throughout the cultures of the earth concerning gods who have divine power but human attributes and passions? (BYU professor Robert L. Millet, The Eternal Gospel, Ensign, July 1996, p. 53)
Joseph Smith did in fact teach that God is a Man of Holiness, an exalted and glorified man. (BYU professor Robert L., Millet, The Mormon Faith: Understanding Restored Christianity, p. 169)
Joseph Smith's purpose is to show that the Bible teaches that our Father in Heaven was once mortal, as we are. (BYU professor Emeritus Joseph Fielding McConkie and Craig Ostler, Revelations of the Restoration, p. 1087)
The Lds church teaches that Heavenly Father was once a man...a mere creature...
...lived on another planet...
...got the "god job" for this planet
For more discussion on the Mormon presentation of "God as sinner," see:
* God Never Sinned He Never Was A Wretch Like Me [Mormonism - Open]
* The Apostasy [What Lds believe re: Christians: Label us 'apostates' like Islam calls us 'infidels'] [See especially posts #3, #4, #6 about how the Mormons focus on a distinct "god"]
Did God die before Jesus Christ was incarnated?
(Joseph Smith said "yes"):
I learned a testimony concerning Abraham, and he reasoned concerning the Gods of heaven. '...Intelligences exist one above another, so that there is no end to them.' If Abraham reasoned thus--If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly. Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it. I want you to pay particular attention to what I am saying. Jesus said that the Father wrought precisely in the same way as His Father had done before Him. As the Father had done before? He laid down His life, and took it up the SAME as His Father had done before." (Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 1938, p. 373)
I heartily agree on your worldview comment.
I also highlighted 11 FREEPER threads from '08 to '12 focusing on Obama's links to Islam (I put that on a Spring thread)
Two candidates with two false views of god.
It's more than just false views of God. It's false gods who wind up controlling these POTUS candidates.
Remember, 'twas these very SAME false gods who controlled Japan, Italy, and Germany during the 1930s and at least the first half of the 1940s.
In that sense, we as Americans can no longer look down upon the Japanese, the Italians, or the Germans who acquiesced or actively sanctioned placing emperor-gods (Japan), fascists (Italians), or madmen-fascist dictators (Germany) into place.
Americans are about to openly sanction placing these false gods at the helm of the power of the so-called "free" world...
These candidates are no "Hitlers" by ANY stretch of the imagination, but the Japanese had emperor-gods well before they launched their wars of the 1930s (vs. China) or 1940s (U.S., etc.) [These emperors were indeed openly acknowledged as "Divine"]
And now we have a man who falls into the camp of his father's cousin -- Lds "First President" Marion Romney -- who taught: "The truth is man is a child of God a God in embryo." -- Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, April 1973, p. 136; or Ensign, July 1973, p. 14.
Romney believes HE is just as divine as the Japanese emperor did once upon a time.
And here many Christian voters know all this...and yet are willing to openly endorse these false gods at the helm of our nation.
As 2013 unfolds, everybody duck!!!! (I've heard God isn't too keen on His people endorsing rivals as competing gods to Him...something about "idolatry" and all that)
This has NOTHING to do with the Mormon faith!
If you are not working daily to strengthen your faith, you will lose your faith.
You are “making it personal”. Not allowed on Religion Forum. Heads up.
MORMONISM! Got it? If you want to talk about Islam post a thread, good god almighty stick to the subject.
Religion Forum = religious discussion.
Please don't hurt me.