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'Spiritual Olympics' Series (S.O.S.): A Glimpse of Mormonism Around the Globe [Vanity]
Colofornian | Aug. 11, 2012 | Colofornian

Posted on 08/11/2012 8:00:00 AM PDT by Colofornian

The apostle Paul -- and other Biblical men of God who constructed the New Testament -- at times used athletic words and analogies of the day. James used the word "swift" (James 1:19); John talked about overcoming (1 John 5:4); and the apostle Paul wrote about exercise (1 Tim. 4:7); wrestling (Eph. 6:12); striving (within preparation boundaries) (2 Tim. 2:5), and running a race (1 Cor. 9:24).

The author of Hebrews also discussed the need to "lay aside every weight" (Heb. 12:1). The Greek word for "weight" -- ogkos -- was a burden or something heavy or cumberson enough that it could impede a runner from running his race as he might.

Certainly, legalistic "religion" -- "religion" that goes beyond simple devotion to Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 11:2-4) -- can lead to somebody embracing "another Jesus" (2 Cor. 11:3-4) -- a "Jesus" is who isn't the Real One.

Perhaps the legalism as such a burdensome "weight" can explain how..."census data from some foreign countries...show that the retention rate" for Mormon converts to be "as low as 25 percent. (Source: Special report -Mormonism besieged by the modern age [Lds church is hemorrhaging in member losses])

Mormon Sociologist Armand Mauss concluded: "75 percent of foreign [LDS] converts are not attending church within a year of conversion. In the United States, 50 percent of the converts fail to attend after a year." And, per Cumorah.com, "This postbaptismal attrition is heavily front-loaded. Elder Dallin H. Oaks noted that 'among those converts who fall away, attrition is sharpest in the two months after baptism,' and missionaries report being told in the MTC" [Missionary Training Center] "that up to 80 percent of inactivity occurs within two months of baptism. In some parts of Latin America, 30 to 40 percent of new converts do not even return to church after baptism to be confirmed."

Source: LDS Church Growth, Member Activity, and Convert Retention: Review and Analysis: Chapter IV-06: Member Activity and Convert Retention

With athleticism being a key "filter" of late with the London Olympics, a series of questions worth delving into at this Olympic season: Who are the Mormons? Who are the American Mormons? And who are the international Mormons? Are some American and international Mormons "exiting" their "spiritual Olympics" trials prematurely? Is this primarily due to discovering Lds history and carefully examining Mormon theological claims? What are some of the reasons for the extremely low Mormon retention rates in other countries?

Well, this S.O.S. -- Spiritual Olympics Series -- seeks to address some of these questions.

South America: Brazil

Last month, the Salt Lake Tribune ran a piece, Brazil mystery: Case of the missing Mormons (913,045 of them, to be exact), by Peggy Fletcher Stack (July 16, 2012).

The following day, a poster at the New Order Mormon.org forum commented on the Trib piece: "I'm sorry, but I just had to call out the ridiculousness of the church's response to the 913,045 member discrepancy between the number of Brazilian members the church claims (1,138,740) and the number of self-identified Mormons on the" [2010] "Brazilian census (225,695)..."A spokesman for the [LDS] "church said, 'A good indicator for membership growth and activity in any area can be found in the construction of meetinghouses and temples'. Um, no. How about 'a good indicator for membership growth and activity' is ACTUAL membership growth and activity rates? Don't distract by saying, 'we're still building stuff, so therefore we must be growing!' Please. Chaps my hide." [Source: New Order Mormon.org, Brazil Mystery: Case of the Missing Mormons]

That forum post at New Order Mormon then led to at least four past Lds missionaries to Brazil chiming in as to why Mormon converts are not readily being retained in that country:

Sources for quotes below are the New Order Mormon Web forum: Brazil Mystery: Case of the Missing Mormons

New Order Mormon ex-missionary to Brazil #1

New Order Mormon ex-missionary to Brazil #2

New Order Mormon ex-missionary to Brazil #3

New Order Mormon ex-missionary to Brazil #4

"The census is just saying that the mormon self-identification rate in Brazil is ~20%. I served my mission in Brazil within the last decade. And it wouldn't surprise me if some of those self-reported mormons in the census are also inactive, and the activity rate is even lower. Admittedly, my evidence is only anecdotal, having only passed through a handful of wards and branches in the middle of nowhere, but the ward lists were enormous compared to the relatively small number who showed up on Sunday. And the vast majority of people I saw baptized quickly stopped attending." (Kneefights, July 17, 2012) "I also served in Brazil (although more than a decade ago), and I would add that the culture there is a little different in respect to religion. The people in general are a lot more spiritual (or you could say superstitious), but most of them have very little commitment to hierarchical organizations. This means that missionaries giving emotional experiences are able to have great numbers of converts, but once someone is baptized, making them loyal to the coorperation is VERY HARD. Getting the people to say that they believe in the stories of the Book of Mormon is pretty easy, but making them attend church even when they say that they believe is hard. It's just a different culture. I very rarely ran across any athiests, skeptics, or non-christians while in Brazil. Most people were willing to believe pretty fantastic stories about religion without any doubt (or very little doubt). Most people I knew believed very strongly in black magic and other various folk magics. It wasn't much of a stretch that Joseph Smith saw an angel and transalated an ancient record. That wasn't out of the ordinary.I met people all the time that claimed to have seen something supernatural.The reason (I believe) that the LDS church isn't growing as fast as other denominations in Brazil is that it is too "North American" and too conservative. It isn't as emotional and magical as many of the other faiths. The Mormonism of the early church (Joseph Smith era) would flurish MUCH MORE in Brazil." (True Believer, July 17, 2012) "I served in Brazil as well. I left for the MTC almost 13 years ago. I served in one ward that had over 900 members on the books, with a weekly attendance of about 60. 600 of those members were baptized by one elder, years previous." (Babajaga, July 17, 2012) "I served in Brazil. I believe up through the 90s there were a ton of soccer baptisms - kids just rounded up after a soccer game and baptized just for numbers. There was never any attendance or conversion. We didn't do that in my time, but we were still pressured to pressure the investigators to get baptized way before they were ready. It wasn't uncommon to have 10 times as many inactives as actives in a ward. Ward sizes were typically very small (in activity), maybe 50-70 members. I'm not surprised at all." (Stimpson, July 18, 2012)

South and Central America

At the same forum link above, New-orderMormon chimed in: "Chile, Peru, Argentina, Guatemala, Costa Rica, etc....It's the same story in every developing country. I'm glad it's starting to get some traction out there, but it's been a numbers sham for years."

India and Asia generally

Almost a decade ago, it was reported: "Protestant groups have been more successful than Latter-day Saints in mobilizing missionaries outside of the United States, especially in Asia. There are over 44,000 Protestant missionaries from India, with 60% serving domestically and 40% serving abroad. Within the next few years, India is expected to surpass the United States as the leading sender of Protestant and Evangelical missionaries! There are only 52 LDS missionaries serving in all of India, with only a fraction being native missionaries."

Source: The Fastest Growing Church in the World?

Sweden

In Sweden, Mormonthink.com reported that "Apostasy within the LDS Church seems to be among the highest in Sweden with many LDS members questioning their beliefs, including several high-ranking LDS leaders. In order to help these struggling members in Sweden, the LDS Church issued a document called 'The Swedish Rescue'."

Source: The Swedish Rescue

The United Kingdom

Fortunately, in the UK, where the Olympics have been hosted, UK Partnerships for Christ has a blog ministry Mormon outreach: Mormonism Investigated UK

One of the recent blog entries this Web site ran was: The Great Apostasy? – By Vicky Gilpin (Aug. 6, 2012) [Scroll down from top]

It also ran a multi-part testimony of former Mormon Chris Ralph, who had been Lds in the UK for over 35 years.


TOPICS: Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture
KEYWORDS: inman; international; lds; lowretentionrates; mormonism
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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Don't believe all the numbers you here tossed out by the Lds church. This piece explores:

* Sources where at best, only 25% of Lds converts are being retained...

* How in Brazil, the discrepancy between the 2010 Brazilian census and the Lds church record for Mormons is over 80%!!! (Almost a million off!)

* Even when you get to the 200,000+ Brazilians who do deem themselves "Mormon," their inactivity rate is high, leaving just a "pittance" matching Lds claims.

* In Sweden, the Lds church had to issue a "Swedish Rescue" paper to try to stave off mass apostasy -- some occurring among its top leadership.

* In India, the Lds church as of circa 2003, only had 52 missionaries in this -- one of the most populous nations of the world. [Note also that the Lds are hardly represented in THE most populous nation, China; and its history of racism led to not even attempting to Mormonize Africa for a century and a half]

* Ministries to Mormons are also popping up in the UK.

1 posted on 08/11/2012 8:00:09 AM PDT by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

You like that Obama guy over the Mormon, don’t you?


2 posted on 08/11/2012 8:06:03 AM PDT by Loud Mime (Pride-filled, judgmental christians do not qualify to be Christians)
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To: Loud Mime

No he’s pulling for someone else who doesn’t have a chance. Of course if you won’t vote for Romney because he’s Morman, it’s the same as voting for the muslim dictator.


3 posted on 08/11/2012 8:25:44 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: Loud Mime
godless is godless- don't try to sweeten one up to satisfy your 'philosophy'.

They are the same! "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come!"

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter."

4 posted on 08/11/2012 8:38:08 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Slump Tester

You unprincipled conservatives are just going to drop your principles a little more and do like the democrats and vote two or three times for Romney.


5 posted on 08/11/2012 8:39:15 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (There can be no Victory without a fight and no battle without wounds.)
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To: Loud Mime; Elsie; All
Since this is in the "Religion" forum, I thought your tagline might be worth commenting briefly upon:
Pride-filled, judgmental christians do not qualify to be Christians

(a) Do you have some "Magic 8-ball" or some peepstone -- some Mormon rock (what they call a Mormon urim & thummim) -- that allows you to get an "exact" reading once a "Christian" has been 100% "filled" with pride? How are you able to judgmentally determine the inward nature of complete strangers? (Enough to pronounce public judgment of them, anyway?)

(b) So you -- thru the above type of devices or some other means -- carry the omniscient power to determine who is -- or isn't a "Christian?"

(c) And the bottom-line question about how you seem to perfectly 'refute' yourself: If you're apparently -- allegedly -- so "down" on others who "judge" others...If you "frown" upon this...pray tell, why are you openly judging others with your tagline? Are you not "guilty" of the very charge you accuse others with? If you were truly averse to judgmentalism, wouldn't you run the exact opposite direction to avoid being linked to judging others?

ALL: Isn't this the height of religious hypocrisy on display by Loud Mime, whose very moniker selected is a contradiction in itself?

6 posted on 08/11/2012 8:40:54 AM PDT by Colofornian (Why don't you 'birthers' ask Mitt about his 'spirit-birth' on planet near Kolob? Hypocrisy @ work?)
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To: Loud Mime

A winner only took till post #2 to make it about the poster not the information.


7 posted on 08/11/2012 8:41:51 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Slump Tester
No he’s pulling for someone else who doesn’t have a chance

Standing on God's Word vs. bowing to the godless. Who has the better chance?

Romney because he’s Morman, it’s the same as voting for the muslim dictator.

Not so - Only in your deceived fearful mind.

You seem convinced a Mormon bishop doesn't have 'dictates'. People suffer because of a lack of knowledge.

8 posted on 08/11/2012 8:50:48 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Loud Mime
I am fascinated by your tag line: Pride-filled, judgmental christians do not qualify to be Christians

Yet, you appear to have zero problem with Mormonism which is by its very nature and foundation anti-Christian.

As an aside, you do realize that making accusatory replies to a person in the religion forum about their mind set is in fact pride-filled and judgmental - right?

9 posted on 08/11/2012 8:52:01 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: roylene
Maybe it's because we've all seen it a million times?

It's the only thing he ever posts, it's way past being old, it's obsessive, divisive, flame bait.

Since he's had to have his own thread pulled because of the flame fest, you think he might learn?

Maybe he likes dividing FR, agenda maybe?

10 posted on 08/11/2012 8:55:43 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: Las Vegas Ron

I understand that some people think that, it’s easy stay off the religion forum threads if it bothers you.
Exposure of Mormonism has been going on since before 2002, for some reason it just now seems to be an issue.
Some of these threads are pulled not because of the poster, but because those who are angry about the exposure of Mormonism.


11 posted on 08/11/2012 9:01:40 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: roylene
I don't go to the religious forum, I always check the latest articles page and all forums show up.

Enjoy the flame war.

12 posted on 08/11/2012 9:05:18 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: Las Vegas Ron; Loud Mime; All
Do not make the thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

13 posted on 08/11/2012 9:07:11 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Las Vegas Ron

Then you may not have realized that this post is in the religion forum.
To avoid them, just click on news and not everything.


14 posted on 08/11/2012 9:10:29 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: All; Las Vegas Ron; roylene; NoGrayZone
Since he's had to have his own thread pulled because of the flame fest, you think he might learn?

(OK, I said I wouldn't include you in a ping, but if you're going to come into a thread I've started, engage in deception, then somebody has to hold you accountable...If you're going to engage in DIShonor, then you've forfeited any right to be 100% treated with "honor"...)

So for the record: There was a near 500-post thread that was removed this week...that was NOT "my" thread...I didn't post it...I didn't remove it...the false rumor that I somehow had anything to do with the posting of that thread was a repeat false accusation made at least three times on that thread by NoGrayZone, for which he/she/ -- "it" as 'GrayZone likes to say -- apologized on that very thread for spreading that false information...now YOU are repeating that false information...for which, you, too, need to apologize...

ALL: Note these sources of false information...and know what kind of lack of credibility emerges from them...They are untrustworthy souls in almost anything they may utter...

But, ALL, let's give a round of "applause" to certain posters here...for providing a "platform" as to why hell exists: All of our very sins have this capability of being "passed on" -- deception embraced by others as "truth." (That's why Jesus' brother, James, said the tongue was like a spark that could start a forest fire).

It doesn't take much these days for people to open their mouths and their keyboards to express false information. And when others take it up and hang on to such deception even for life, worst deceptions than what we've seen here can become adhesive on others for eternity!

15 posted on 08/11/2012 9:11:32 AM PDT by Colofornian (Why don't you 'birthers' ask Mitt about his 'spirit-birth' on planet near Kolob? Hypocrisy @ work?)
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To: Colofornian; Religion Moderator

RM, I’ll be extra diligent to apply post #13 to myself for the remainder of this thread...hopefully, I won’t feel any need to ping the same poster again...(there are other posters here who could try to “set things straight” if the need arises)...


16 posted on 08/11/2012 9:16:31 AM PDT by Colofornian (Why don't you 'birthers' ask Mitt about his 'spirit-birth' on planet near Kolob? Hypocrisy @ work?)
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To: presently no screen name
Seen any Mormons hijacking planes, flying into buildings, or blowing people up lately?

Who will stand by Isral, the Mormon or the muslim? DUH!

17 posted on 08/11/2012 9:28:58 AM PDT by Slump Tester (What if I'm pregnant Teddy? Errr-ahh -Calm down Mary Jo, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it)
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To: Slump Tester

Neither.
Study Mormonism and find out who, where and what Mormonism teaches about Israel and the Jews.


18 posted on 08/11/2012 9:32:31 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Slump Tester
Seen any Mormons hijacking planes, flying into buildings, or blowing people up lately?

Their job is to 'appear' good. Evil uses whatever he can to deceive.

Who will stand by Isral, the Mormon or the muslim? DUH!

GOD DOES!! as It is Written DUH!

19 posted on 08/11/2012 9:35:16 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Colofornian

Why are you pinging me to this thread? I have made no comment on it.

I had no idea the other thread was pulled because I had moved on to better things.

Yes, I made a mistake (not your “false information” in which sounds like I did it on purpose) in stating you started the other thread, and I publicly apologized for it.

However, I only said it once, not “at least three times”. Gosh, talk about being untrustworthy.

Again, why ping me to this thread of yours? Not enough “comments” for your liking?

Today is a day of celebration.....Paul Ryan, wooohooo!

I do not intend to diminish my good mood with your hatred of Mormons.

P.S. I am only responding to you to be polite. It’s a good day for America!


20 posted on 08/11/2012 9:42:46 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: NoGrayZone; Colofornian

May I ask you a question?
Why is exposing Mormonism hatred of Mormons?
People tend to say that many times, yet fail to explain why that is.
Second, protocol and politeness dictates if you mention someone in a reply you ping them.
Have a good day.


21 posted on 08/11/2012 9:48:21 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
It's the only thing he ever posts, it's way past being old, it's obsessive, divisive, flame bait.

If you have a problem with evil being exposed - don't click on the link.

Because Christians are commanded to EXPOSE evil so others who don't know, will know to run from it!

And that command is OLD also - like over 2,000 years ago and HOW MUCH HAS IT BEEN HEEDED?! Some ignore it, some constantly complain about it and some learn from it.

Eph 5:11 "Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather EXPOSE them.'

2 John 1:10,11" If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him SHARES in his wicked work."

Since you 'heard' it, you are now responsible for what you do with it!

Titus 3:10 "Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him."

22 posted on 08/11/2012 10:01:57 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: NoGrayZone
I do not intend to diminish my good mood

Philippians 2:21 "For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ."

23 posted on 08/11/2012 10:12:07 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: roylene
Again...I am only responding to be polite. Please don't ping me anymore to any anti-Mormon threads.

"Second, protocol and politeness dictates if you mention someone in a reply you ping them."

Colo current thread has nothing to do with the "pulled" thread. If it was pulled, then it was pulled. End of story, get over it.

24 posted on 08/11/2012 10:13:28 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: roylene; Slump Tester

Exactly. Those who cry the loudest about Mormonism being exposed are the LEAST knowledgeable.


25 posted on 08/11/2012 10:14:55 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name

Don’t bother posting to me as I will not read anything you write.

I’ll ask you to kindly refrain as you’re just polluting my ping page.

Thank you in advance.


26 posted on 08/11/2012 10:15:30 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: presently no screen name
"Philippians 2:21 "For everyone looks out for his own interests, not those of Jesus Christ."

Choosing Paul Ryan was a great step to save America.....an idea, founded on Judeo/Christen beliefs.....in which MANY of us were praying for.

27 posted on 08/11/2012 10:20:59 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: NoGrayZone
Ok, your response has nothing to do with my response but hey its ok.

This is what I said:

May I ask you a question?

Why is exposing Mormonism hatred of Mormons?

People tend to say that many times, yet fail to explain why that is.

Second, protocol and politeness dictates if you mention someone in a reply you ping them.

Have a good day.

Again, have a good day.

28 posted on 08/11/2012 10:32:00 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Then don't post on FR! I can rebuke any words you say - when you choose to pollute w/your godless agenda. Evil doesn't have the floor but the pit!!

"NO ONE can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money." Matt 6:24

29 posted on 08/11/2012 10:42:29 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: NoGrayZone

You rebuke the Word of God and then say you were praying? LOL!! I’m not a mittbot that is easily deceived.


30 posted on 08/11/2012 10:45:10 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Las Vegas Ron
Maybe he likes dividing FR, agenda maybe?

You are the one dividing FR with your godless agenda! This is a GOD FIRST site!

31 posted on 08/11/2012 10:49:02 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; roylene

Please stop pinging me to your hate fest.

I am asking nicely. As say you....have a nice day.


32 posted on 08/11/2012 10:49:33 AM PDT by NoGrayZone (For evil to triumph it is only necessary for good men to do nothing.)
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To: NoGrayZone

NGZ please answer the question: what hate?
I have asked nicely and it appears you may be willing to answer.
I would like to know why you apparently feel that exposing Mormonism is hate.
It is a sincere question, that I have asked (as well as others) have asked of those making the accusation, and have yet to receive an answer.


33 posted on 08/11/2012 10:52:43 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: roylene

UNWILLING


34 posted on 08/11/2012 10:53:15 AM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: roylene; Las Vegas Ron
Some of these threads are pulled not because of the poster, but because those who are angry about the exposure of Mormonism.

EXACTLY!! And thanks for expose them, also! Those who want evil to be good.

35 posted on 08/11/2012 10:54:36 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: presently no screen name; Religion Moderator

You’re fishing in the wrong pond, there are no bites here.

I already asked you once to kindly not post to me, now please knock it off.


36 posted on 08/11/2012 10:57:10 AM PDT by Las Vegas Ron (Medicine is the keystone in the arch of socialism)
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To: NoGrayZone
Then STOP implying it's HATE when one is EXPOSING EVIL!

"Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter".

And that's from GOD!! Each time you do it, you are being WILLFULLY disobedient. It's why you are easily deceived. Let's see what that brings you.

37 posted on 08/11/2012 11:07:31 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Las Vegas Ron

YOU KNOCK IT OFF - YOU don’t clear a path for yourself! Get off the thread then!


38 posted on 08/11/2012 11:10:42 AM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Loud Mime
You like that Obama guy over the Mormon, don’t you?

There was no mention concerning Obama or Romney in this article, this was a discussion concerning Mormonism.
39 posted on 08/11/2012 11:38:30 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: roylene

From what I’ve read, my tagline is correct. But, I’ll change it into a question, because some people get offended. I want them thinking!

If you can go back through the opinions that I have posted, you’ll find that I do not like one telling another that their religious opinions are wrong. Disagreement is OK. I continually cite that these concern metaphysical beliefs - therefore unprovable. Now, what can we make of the claim that one religion is anti-christian when it is without empirical foundation and attacks the philosophy of others?

See? Small planet, isn’t it?

I go to no church. I’ve done that. I believe that they have become financially driven forgiveness factories for some whose behavior is far, far from the examples set by Christ. Some are hurting conservatism’s cause. I live in California; I see it. Organized religion is driving good people away from the republican party. You do not have to be a “christian” to be virtuous.

And yes, my accusations may land on some people the wrong way. I am the subject of complaints. But I believe in God. I don’t believe in this idea of continual forgiveness and sinning. I believe that I will have to pay for all my sins. It creates a better person, even in God’s eyes. What’s wrong with that?


40 posted on 08/11/2012 12:16:10 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Are Pride-filled, judgmental christians qualified to be Christians?)
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To: presently no screen name
Please let me know what you think of this. It's one person's opinion, like yours or mine, but reads toward reason and Christ-like behavior instead of Jeremiah Wright.
41 posted on 08/11/2012 12:27:53 PM PDT by Loud Mime (Are Pride-filled, judgmental christians qualified to be Christians?)
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To: Loud Mime
but reads toward reason

That's your philosophy speaking again and it has nothing to do w/Christ. "Trust in the LORD with all your heart; and lean NOT unto your own understanding".

"As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are MY WAYS HIGHER than your ways and MY THOUGHTS HIGHER than your thoughts".

42 posted on 08/11/2012 1:07:26 PM PDT by presently no screen name
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To: Loud Mime

Ok, not people but God:

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

or

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

or

Jude 16-19
These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage. But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. They said to you, In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires.

or

Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

(There are more of course)

God is very clear false prophets and teachings are to be warned of.

It is up to you of course to accept God’s Word or not, He gave us free will.


43 posted on 08/11/2012 2:17:00 PM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Slump Tester

Good post. Our country is rapidly heading towards a currency collapse; we’re being overrun by illegal aliens; and bloodthirsty, militant Islam is on the march all across the globe. And yet, in spite of it all, the scourge of our age is Mormonism?

Why the obsession with Mormonism? Is it any more “godless” than Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, Astrozorianism?


44 posted on 08/11/2012 2:35:53 PM PDT by kevao
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To: Colofornian
The case of the missing Mormons...has it been solved?
45 posted on 08/11/2012 2:42:10 PM PDT by BlueDragon
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To: Loud Mime
You like that Obama guy over the Mormon, don’t you?

You love that Joseph Smith guy fellow over Jesus Christ of the BIBLE; don't you?

46 posted on 08/11/2012 7:40:29 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Slump Tester
No he’s pulling for someone else who doesn’t have a chance. Of course if you won’t vote for Romney because he’s Morman, it’s the same as voting for the muslim dictator.

No it isn't.

47 posted on 08/11/2012 7:41:24 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: presently no screen name
Do not make this thread "about" individual Freepers. That is also a form of "making it personal."

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.

48 posted on 08/11/2012 7:43:05 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Colofornian
Do you have some "Magic 8-ball" or some peepstone

Well; an object like this is NOT unheard of in MORMON circles...




THE FIRST BOOK OF NEPHI

HIS REIGN AND MINISTRY
CHAPTER 16
The wicked take the truth to be hard—Lehi’s sons marry the daughters of Ishmael—The Liahona guides their course in the wilderness—Messages from the Lord are written on the Liahona from time to time—Ishmael dies; his family murmur because of afflictions. Between 600 and 592 B.C.
1 And now it came to pass that after I, Nephi, had made an end of speaking to my brethren, behold they said unto me: Thou hast declared unto us hard things, more than we are able to bear.
2 And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken ahard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the bguilty taketh the ctruth to be hard, for it dcutteth them to the very center.
3 And now my brethren, if ye were righteous and were willing to hearken to the truth, and give heed unto it, that ye might awalk uprightly before God, then ye would not murmur because of the truth, and say: Thou speakest hard things against us.
4 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did exhort my brethren, with all diligence, to keep the commandments of the Lord.
5 And it came to pass that they did ahumble themselves before the Lord; insomuch that I had joy and great hopes of them, that they would walk in the paths of righteousness.
6 Now, all these things were said and done as my father dwelt in a tent in the avalley which he called Lemuel.
7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, took one of the adaughters of Ishmael to bwife; and also, my brethren took of the cdaughters of Ishmael to wife; and also dZoram took the eldest daughter of Ishmael to wife.
8 And thus my father had fulfilled all the acommandments of the Lord which had been given unto him. And also, I, Nephi, had been blessed of the Lord exceedingly.
9 And it came to passthat the voice of the Lord spake unto my father by night, and commanded him that on the morrow he should take his ajourney into the wilderness.
10 And it came to passthat as my father arose in the morning, and went forth to the tent door, to his great astonishment he beheld upon the ground a round aball of curious workmanship; and it was of fine brass. And within the ball were two spindles; and the one bpointed the way whither we should go into the wilderness.
11 And it came to passthat we did gather together whatsoever things we should carry into the wilderness, and all the remainder of our provisions which the Lord had given unto us; and we did take aseed of every kind that we might carry into the wilderness.
12 And it came to pass that we did take our tents and depart into the wilderness, across the river Laman.
13 And it came to pass that we traveled for the space of four days, nearly a south-southeast direction, and we did pitch our tents again; and we did call the name of the place aShazer.
14 And it came to pass that we did take our bows and our arrows, and go forth into the wilderness to slay food for our families; and after we had slain food for our families we did return again to our families in the wilderness, to the place of Shazer. And we did go forth again in the wilderness, following the same direction, keeping in the most fertile parts of the wilderness, which were in the borders near the aRed Sea.
15 And it came to pass that we did travel for the space of many days, aslaying food by the way, with our bows and our arrows and our stones and our slings.
16 And we did follow the adirections of the ball, which led us in the more fertile parts of the wilderness.
17 And after we had traveled for the space of many days, we did pitch our tents for the space of a time, that we might again rest ourselves and obtain food for our families.
18 And it came to pass that as I, Nephi, went forth to slay food, behold, I did break my bow, which was made of fine asteel; and after I did break my bow, behold, my brethren were angry with me because of the loss of my bow, for we did obtain no food.
19 And it came to pass that we did return without food to our families, and being much fatigued, because of their journeying, they did suffer much for the want of food.
20 And it came to pass that Laman and Lemuel and the sons of Ishmael did begin to murmur exceedingly, because of their sufferings and afflictions in the wilderness; and also my father began to murmur against the Lord his God; yea, and they were all exceedingly sorrowful, even that they did amurmur against the Lord.
21 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, having been afflicted with my brethren because of the loss of my bow, and their bows having lost their asprings, it began to be exceedingly difficult, yea, insomuch that we could obtain no food.
22 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did speak much unto my brethren, because they had hardened their hearts again, even unto acomplaining against the Lord their God.
23 And it came to pass I, Nephi, did amake out of wood a bow, and out of a straight stick, an arrow; wherefore, I did arm myself with a bow and an arrow, with a sling and with stones. And I said unto my bfather: Whither shall I go to obtain food?
24 And it came to pass that he did ainquire of the Lord, for they had bhumbled themselves because of my words; for I did say many things unto them in the energy of my soul.
25 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord came unto my father; and he was truly achastened because of his murmuring against the Lord, insomuch that he was brought down into the depths of sorrow.
26 And it came to pass that the voice of the Lord said unto him: Look upon the ball, and behold the things which are written.
27 And it came to pass that when my father beheld the things which were awritten upon the ball, he did fear and tremble exceedingly, and also my brethren and the sons of Ishmael and our wives.
28 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the pointers which were in the ball, that they did work according to the afaith and diligence and heed which we did give unto them.
29 And there was also written upon them a new writing, which was plain to be read, which did give us aunderstanding concerning the ways of the Lord; and it was written and changed from time to time, according to the faith and diligence which we gave unto it. And thus we see that by bsmall means the Lord can bring about great things.
30 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did go forth up into the top of the mountain, according to the adirections which were given upon the ball.
31 And it came to pass that I did slay wild abeasts, insomuch that I did obtain food for our families.
32 And it came to pass that I did return to our tents, bearing the beasts which I had slain; and now when they beheld that I had obtained afood, how great was their joy! And it came to pass that they did humble themselves before the Lord, and did give thanks unto him.
33 And it came to pass that we did again take our journey, traveling nearly the same course as in the beginning; and after we had traveled for the space of many days we did pitch our tents again, that we might tarry for the space of a time.
34 And it came to pass that aIshmael died, and was buried in the place which was called bNahom.
35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did amourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father, and because of their bafflictions in the wilderness; and they did cmurmur against my father, because he had brought them out of the land of Jerusalem, saying: Our father is dead; yea, and we have wandered much in the wilderness, and we have suffered much affliction, hunger, thirst, and fatigue; and after all these sufferings we must perish in the wilderness with hunger.
36 And thus they did murmur against my father, and also against me; and they were desirous to areturn again to Jerusalem.
37 And Laman said unto Lemuel and also unto the sons of Ishmael: Behold, let us aslay our father, and also our brother Nephi, who has taken it upon him to be our bruler and our teacher, who are his elder brethren.
38 Now, he says that the Lord has talked with him, and also that aangels have ministered unto him. But behold, we know that he lies unto us; and he tells us these things, and he worketh many things by his cunning arts, that he may deceive our eyes, thinking, perhaps, that he may lead us away into some strange wilderness; and after he has led us away, he has thought to make himself a king and a ruler over us, that he may do with us according to his will and pleasure. And after this manner did my brother Laman bstir up their hearts to canger.
39 And it came to pass that the Lord was with us, yea, even the voice of the Lord came and did speak many words unto them, and did achasten them exceedingly; and after they were chastened by the voice of the Lord they did turn away their anger, and did repent of their sins, insomuch that the Lord did bless us again with food, that we did not perish.
 

49 posted on 08/11/2012 7:43:25 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Colofornian
...some Mormon rock (what they call a Mormon urim & thummim) -- that allows you to get an "exact" reading once a "Christian" has been 100% "filled" with pride?

I understand that things like these are VERY useful in understanding MORMONism.



"Now the way he translated was he put the urim and thummim into his hat and Darkned his Eyes than he would take a sentance and it would apper in Brite Roman Letters. Then he would tell the writer and he would write it. Then that would go away the next sentance would Come and so on. But if it was not Spelt rite it would not go away till it was rite, so we see it was marvelous. Thus was the hol [whole] translated."
---Joseph Knight's journal.


"In writing for your father I frequently wrote day after day, often sitting at the table close by him, he sitting with his face buried in his hat, with the stone in it, and dictating hour after hour with nothing between us."
(History of the RLDS Church, 8 vols.
(Independence, Missouri: Herald House,1951),
"Last Testimony of Sister Emma [Smith Bidamon]," 3:356.

"I, as well as all of my father's family, Smith's wife, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, were present during the translation. . . . He [Joseph Smith] did not use the plates in translation."
---(David Whitmer,
as published in the "Kansas City Journal," June 5, 1881,
and reprinted in the RLDS "Journal of History", vol. 8, (1910), pp. 299-300.

In an 1885 interview, Zenas H. Gurley, then the editor of the RLDS Saints Herald, asked Whitmer if Joseph had used his "Peep stone" to do the translation. Whitmer replied:

"... he used a stone called a "Seers stone," the "Interpreters" having been taken away from him because of transgression. The "Interpreters" were taken from Joseph after he allowed Martin Harris to carry away the 116 pages of Ms [manuscript] of the Book of Mormon as a punishment, but he was allowed to go on and translate by use of a "Seers stone" which he had, and which he placed in a hat into which he buried his face, stating to me and others that the original character appeared upon parchment and under it the translation in English."


"Martin Harris related an incident that occurred during the time that he wrote that portion of the translation of the Book of Mormon which he was favored to write direct from the mouth of the Prophet Joseph Smith. He said that the Prophet possessed a seer stone, by which he was enabled to translate as well as from the Urim and Thummim, and for convenience he then used the seer stone, Martin explained the translation as follows: By aid of the seer stone, sentences would appear and were read by the Prophet and written by Martin and when finished he would say 'Written,' and if correctly written that sentence would disappear and another appear in its place, but if not written correctly it remained until corrected, so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates, precisely in the language then used."
(Edward Stevenson, "One of the Three Witnesses,"
reprinted from Deseret News, 30 Nov. 1881
in Millennial Star, 44 (6 Feb. 1882): 86-87.)

In 1879, Michael Morse, Emma Smith's brother-in-law, stated:
 
 "When Joseph was translating the Book of Mormon [I] had occasion more than once to go into his immediate presence, and saw him engaged at his work of translation. The mode of procedure consisted in Joseph's placing the Seer Stone in the crown of a hat, then putting his face into the hat, so as to entirely cover his face, resting his elbows upon his knees, and then dictating word after word, while the scribes Emma, John Whitmer, O. Cowdery, or some other wrote it down."
(W.W. Blair interview with Michael Morse,
Saints Herald, vol. 26, no. 12
June 15, 1879,  pp. 190-91.)


Joseph Smith's brother William also testified to the "face in the hat" version:
 
"The manner in which this was done was by looking into the Urim and Thummim, which was placed in a hat to exclude the light, (the plates lying near by covered up), and reading off the translation, which appeared in the stone by the power of God"
("A New Witness for Christ in America,"
Francis W. Kirkham, 2:417.)


"The manner in which he pretended to read and interpret was the same manner as when he looked for the money-diggers, with the stone in his hat, while the book of plates were at the same time hid in the woods."
---Isaac Hale (Emma Smith's father's) affidavit, 1834.




50 posted on 08/11/2012 7:45:26 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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