The First Mormon President? Does Faith Matter? [Yes, indeed!!! Lest we have a false god leading USA]

You insufferable boor.

Yet there is SOMETHING that has kept you attracted enough to be able to reply to post #166.

I find that to be fascinating!

But we can get an insite into what these ‘Godless” people believe - out of their own mouths they are known?

Another good idea!!

In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these “Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet”, for our salvation depends on them.

1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say “Thus Saith the Lord,” to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed—reject them and suffer.

I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captain—how close do our lives harmonize with the Lord’s anointed—the living Prophet—President of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.

Ezra Taft Benson

(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng

But we can get an insite into what these ‘Godless” people believe - out of their own mouths they are known?

Another good idea!!

Professor Robert Millet teaching at the Mission Prep Club in 2004 http://newsnet.byu.edu/video/18773/ <-- Complete and uneditted

Timeline... Subject...

0:59 "Anti-Mormons..."

1:16 "ATTACK the faith you have..."

2:02 "We really aren't obligated to answer everyone's questions..."

3:57 "You already know MORE about God and Christ and the plan of salvation than any who would ATTACK you."

I’m not interested in what he has to say.

Yet you keep showing up on Colofornian's threads. If you weren't interested, you'd just skip the thread. This is like those who claim that no one cares on threads with 500+ posts. Obvious evidence suggests the statement is false.

I don’t see any Mormons on here criticizing Christian beliefs, so afford them the same courtesy they afford you.

You're not very informed about the history of Mormonism, are you? Ever hear of the derogatory term "gracers"? You don't hang around the religion forum, so I wouldn't expect you to know about what transpires on the forums here but Mormon criticism of Christianity has tapered off recently, primarily because the Mormon apologists wouldn't follow the forum rules and got zotted.

Thanks, but Mormons don’t drink coffee, so I doubt they’ll be providing me any time soon.

They ain't supposed to eat MEAT in the summer time; either.

Go ahead; ask them. I'm sure they will provide lots of answers.

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 89

Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.

1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.

1 A ^aWord OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—

2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the ^aword of wisdom, showing forth the order and ^bwill of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—

3 Given for a principle with ^apromise, adapted to the capacity of the ^bweak and the weakest of all ^csaints, who are or can be called saints.

4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of ^aevils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of ^bconspiring men in the last days, I have ^cwarned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—

5 That inasmuch as any man ^adrinketh ^bwine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.

6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, ^apure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.

7 And, again, ^astrong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.

8 And again, tobacco is not for the ^abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.

10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome ^aherbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—

11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with ^aprudence and ^bthanksgiving.

12 Yea, ^aflesh also of ^bbeasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used ^csparingly;

13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be ^aused, only in times of winter, or of cold, or ^bfamine.

14 All ^agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;

15 And ^athese hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.

16 All grain is good for the ^afood of man; as also the ^bfruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—

17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.

18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, ^ashall receive ^bhealth in their navel and marrow to their bones;

19 And shall ^afind ^bwisdom and great ^ctreasures of ^dknowledge, even hidden treasures;

20 And shall ^arun and not be ^bweary, and shall walk and not faint.

21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the ^adestroying angel shall ^bpass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

You remind me of a Muslim.

Oh?

Do you have a working knowledge of them, too?

HR>

“I Will Be a Second Mohammed”

In the heat of the Missouri “Mormon War” of 1838, Joseph Smith made the following claim, “I will be to this generation a second Mohammed, whose motto in treating for peace was ‘the Alcoran [Koran] or the Sword.’ So shall it eventually be with us—‘Joseph Smith or the Sword!’ ”[1]

It is most interesting that a self-proclaimed Christian prophet would liken himself to Mohammed, the founder of Islam. His own comparison invites us to take a closer look as well. And when we do, we find some striking—and troubling—parallels. Consider the following.

Mohammed and Joseph Smith both had humble beginnings. Neither had formal religious connections or upbringing, and both were relatively uneducated. Both founded new religions by creating their own scriptures. In fact, followers of both prophets claim these scriptures are miracles since their authors were the most simple and uneducated of men.[2]
Both prophets claim of having angel visitations, and of receiving divine revelation to restore pure religion to the earth again. Mohammed was told that both Jews and Christians had long since corrupted their scriptures and religion. In like manner, Joseph Smith was told that all of Christianity had become corrupt, and that consequently the Bible itself was no longer reliable. In both cases, this corruption required a complete restoration of both scripture and religion. Nothing which preceded either prophet could be relied upon any longer. Both prophets claim they were used of God to restore eternal truths which once existed on earth, but had been lost due to human corruption.
Both prophets created new scripture which borrowed heavily from the Bible, but with a substantially new “spin.” In his Koran, Mohammed appropriates a number of Biblical themes and characters—but he changes the complete sense of many passages, claiming to “correct” the Bible. In so doing he changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place. In like manner, Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon, much of which is plagiarized directly from the King James Bible. Interestingly, the Book of Mormon claims that this same Bible has been substantially corrupted and is therefore unreliable. In addition, Joseph Smith went so far as to actually create his own version of the Bible itself, the “Inspired Version,” in which he both adds and deletes significant portions of text, claiming he is “correcting” it. In so doing he also changes many doctrines, introducing his own in their place.
As a part of their new scriptural “spin,” both prophets saw themselves as prophesied in scripture, and both saw themselves as a continuation of a long line of Biblical prophets. Mohammed saw himself as a continuation of the ministry of Moses and Jesus. Joseph Smith saw himself as a successor to Enoch, Melchizedek, Joseph and Moses. Joseph Smith actually wrote himself into his own version of the Bible—by name.
Both prophets held up their own scripture as superior to the Bible. Mohammed claimed that the Koran was a perfect copy of the original which was in heaven. The Koran is therefore held to be absolutely perfect, far superior to the Bible and superceding it. In like manner, Joseph Smith also made the following claim. “I told the Brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book.”[3]
Despite their claim that the Bible was corrupt, both prophets admonished their followers to adhere to its teachings. An obvious contradiction, this led to selective acceptance of some portions and wholesale rejection of others. As a result, the Bible is accepted by both groups of followers only to the extent that it agrees with their prophet’s own superior revelation.
Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith taught that true salvation was to be found only in their respective religions. Those who would not accept their message were considered “infidels,” pagans or Gentiles. In so doing, both prophets became the enemy of genuine Christianity, and have led many people away from the Christ of the Bible.
Both prophets encountered fierce opposition to their new religions and had to flee from town to town because of threats on their lives. Both retaliated to this opposition by forming their own militias. Both ultimately set up their own towns as model societies.
Both Mohammed and Joseph Smith left unclear instructions about their successors. The majority of Mohammed’s followers, Sunni Muslims, believe they were to elect their new leader, whereas the minority, Shiite Muslims, look to Alī ibn Abī Ṭālib, whom they consider Divinely appointed, as the rightful successor to Muhammad, and the first imam. (Ali was the cousin and son-in-law of the Islamic prophet Muhammad). Similarly, the majority of Joseph Smith's followers, Mormons, believed their next prophet should have been the existing leader of their quorum of twelve apostles, whereas the minority, RLDS, believed Joseph Smith's own son should have been their next prophet. Differences on this issue, and many others, have created substantial tension between these rival groups of each prophet.
Mohammed taught that Jesus was just another of a long line of human prophets, of which he was the last. He taught that he was superior to Christ and superceded Him. In comparison, Joseph Smith also made the following claim.

“I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him, but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”[4] In light of these parallels, perhaps Joseph Smith's claim to be a second Mohammed unwittingly became his most genuine prophecy of all.

[1] Joseph Smith made this statement at the conclusion of a speech in the public square at Far West, Missouri on October 14, 1838. This particular quote is documented in Fawn M. Brodie, No Man Knows My History, second edition, (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1971), p. 230–231. Fawn Brodie’s footnote regarding this speech contains valuable information, and follows. “Except where noted, all the details of this chapter [16] are taken from the History of the [Mormon] Church. This speech, however, was not recorded there, and the report given here is based upon the accounts of seven men. See the affidavits of T.B. Marsh, Orson Hyde, George M. Hinkle, John Corrill, W.W. Phelps, Samson Avard, and Reed Peck in Correspondence, Orders, etc., pp. 57–9, 97–129. The Marsh and Hyde account, which was made on October 24, is particularly important. Part of it was reproduced in History of the [Mormon] Church, Vol. III, p. 167. See also the Peck manuscript, p. 80. Joseph himself barely mentioned the speech in his history; see Vol. III, p. 162.”

[2] John Ankerberg & John Weldon, The Facts on Islam, (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 1998), pp.8–9. Eric Johnson, Joseph Smith & Muhammed, (El Cajon, CA: Mormonism Research Ministry, 1998), pp. 6–7.

[3] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.4, pp.461.

[4] Documentary History of the [Mormon] Church, vol.6, pp.408–409.

Tell us why we should allow the muslim 4 more years

Tell us why we should allow the MORMON any years while you're at it.

There isn't even an Ultimate god in Mormonism...Nobody knows who the gods are that were part of the council which appointed the god of this world -- a former man, say Mormons.
So there's not even any Ultimate Authority in Mormonism!

I thought this kind of bigotry was confined to the Demonrats.

He clearly separated the Kingdom of God and earthly kingdoms into two separate realms.

Jesus’ teaching in one area is not an excuse to reject either his or apostolic teaching in another area. A house divided against itself cannot stand, and God will not tell us in one place what he forbids us to do in another. Any interpretation of Scripture which results in such an inconsistency must be false.

Jesus, when he teaches us to render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what is God’s, is not teaching the modern civil religion of hermetically sealing private religious sentiment from any contact with public discourse. That is an anachronistic reading at best.

Rather, he is teaching us to recognize the difference between possession and ownership. Caesar has a limited range of authority, and he does have a right to use what grant of authority God has given him (as long as he uses it righteously – see Romans 13), including the printing and tax collection of money that bears his image.

But God is the ultimate owner, and we must still give to God what is God’s. And what is God’s? First, our own heart, upon which is imprinted His image. But what else? What do we have that is not God’s? He owns the cattle on a thousand hills. What does anyone have, whether coin, or authority, or life, that they did not receive from him (cf. 1 Cor 4:7)? It is the failure to recognize and act on His ownership of us that is the heart of idolatry.

I am positive that you give your time, talent, and treasure to false gods and to those who support them.

And how do you arrive at such a remarkable conclusion? Do you believe obedience to God is impossible? You appear to be rationalizing further disobedience based on your proposed impossibility of the Christian avoiding full participation in someone else's idolatry. Breathtaking.

Now I do agree that before someone comes to faith in Christ, obedience to God is impossible. As the Scripture says, whatever is not of faith is sin, and the lost sinner, lacking faith, is hell-bent on a wide variety of idolatries, and remains so until touched by God’s grace:

1Cor 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, [10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

However, I cannot accept your conclusion. You may not intend it, but it voids God of his power to save, to redeem lost souls, to wash them in his blood and bring them to faith in Jesus. If it were about my own weakness, I would agree with you. I could never on my own be free of sin. But salvation is of God, and is not constrained by the weakness of the sinner, but rather is the cure for that very weakness:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. [17] For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Therefore, while we may be in the world, and must rub shoulders with those who follow false and harmful beliefs, up to and including doing commerce with them ….

1Cor 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: [10] Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

… we must not be of the world, driven by its godless fears and misconceptions, or supportive of it’s mission of destroying Christian faith:

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Even as Jesus makes it clear, while we are not expected to leave this world until God calls us home, neither are we to be contaminated with the evils of this world:

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

… and not the least of these evils is idolatry, and while I may be unable to buy food or clothing or see or hear things crafted by unbelievers, living free of idolatry is not only possible but an affirmative obligation of Christian living:

1Cor 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. [14] Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

We live among rebels to God, but we must not join them in their rebellion, or provide material support to evangelists of the rebellion, which is what false teachers and false prophets clearly are. We live among idolaters, but we do not support their idolatry, nor voluntarily give ourselves to be under the power of an open preacher of idolatry, nor even to wish him well, lest we be counted by God as partakers of his evil. See 2 John 1:10,11.

God assures us we do not have to sin in order that good may come of it, but if we trust him, he will himself provide us with a way of escape, not from the hardships of a life of obedience to God, but from the far more fearsome consequences of living in rebellion to God:

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. [29] Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. [30] But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. [31] Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Peace,

SR

What forums rules?

The ones that say you can hate on Morons all you want?

Moo.

typo:

while I may be unable to avoid buying food or clothing or seeing or hearing things crafted by unbelievers

Sorry.

Moo.

I thought this kind of bigotry was confined to the Demonrats.

Well, no, being critical of a false religion isn't bigotry at all. It's love. It's telling your teeage daughter that the guy she is seeing is up to no good, and if you're right, and telling the truth, you're saying it only because you want to prevent harm, and promote the well-being of your daughter.

So, the only way you can get to real bigotry is by intentionally saying disparaging things about a person or a group that are not in fact true. But rather than deal with those facts (because attempting to refute them would take real work), it is much easier to just shoot the messenger. And accusing the messenger of being a bigot is not a practice of conservatism, but of the left. Per Alynski, don't get tangled up in discussing real facts; just marginalize the opposition by false accusations of bigotry.

It’s called “bracketing” by the psych ops folks. Google it. People don’t like to think too hard if they don’t have to. So you repeatedly tag a target with a strongly negative emotive label like “bigot,” to establish an unconscious negative emotional response to that target that prevents people from even hearing what they have to say.

And it works well, too. Look what it has done for the homosexual agenda. It's almost a conditioned reflex. You're for traditional marriage? You must be a bigot. Or you don’t trust jihadis getting into your state department? You're an Islamophobe. Oppose killing innocent babies in the womb? You woman hater you.

See, so genetically, that kind of automatic "you’re a hater" meme has got dem fingerprints all over it. Where did you say you were from again?

And your point?

Jim has made his position clear on this topic:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2917406/posts

Lastly, we're having a bit of changeover on our moderator staff. At least two moderators resigned this afternoon after I flatly refused to rein in a so-called anti-Mormon "bigot" on FR. Well, if being in opposition to false prophets and false prophecy makes a Christian believer a bigot, then I guess I'm a bigot. I've posted before that I flat do not believe that the Book of Mormon is the true word of God. Nor do I believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. The Christian bible warns us to be weary of false prophets and that I am. Romney being the presumptive Republican nominee does not change that fact.

I don’t care at all what his opinion on the matter is.

Likewise; my voting for any person can hinge upon any test I want to apply to them; right?

Exactly! Your 'test' is your choice, not anyone else's.

There are those being saved in Russia and CUba and other communist nations as well. Tose are NOT the leaders of the system and they are not the ideologues that promote communism. They are the citizens who are forced to live in these hell holes.

I have not said anything in this thread that disagrees with that