Skip to comments.Get this...
Posted on 08/23/2012 9:57:37 AM PDT by NYCCatholic
Okay, another question for my awesome freepers...
Get this...a friend of mine recently attended a week-long silent retreat given by a congregation of nuns in the Northeast. I won't name the order. During daily Mass, the Priest allowed one of the nuns to proclaim the Gospel and give a homily.
Is this allowed? I was under the impression that only a Priest or Deacon can read the Gospel and give a homily.
guess it wasn’t really silent was it
You are correct.
You acquired yuor trogloyditic impressions during the Pre-Feminization Era. /sarc/
Oh No!!! I am sure God wil smite them for that
Can you believe it? How dare they
Smite them oh mighty Smiter!
Some time back, I used to serve at Mass during the summer where we go on vacation. One time the priest came in, and explained to me before Mass that he had a sore throat and could barely talk. He could say the Mass, because it would be valid even if people couldn’t hear most of it. But he asked me to read the Gospel as well as the Epistles.
In the circumstances, I agreed. But I must say that I felt uncomfortable about doing it, and briefly explained to the congregation, who hadn’t been told, why I was doing it at our pastor’s request.
Absent such an emergency, there is no excuse for anyone but the priest or a deacon to read the gospel. Especially not a nun who evidently does so by her own “authority.”
Catholicism isnt about private interpretation: it isn't a Burger King religion, and by that I mean a have it your way religion. If they intended to end up in "my little chapel of preference" , their GPS is out of whack: they've come in the wrong door and sat themselves down in the wrong church.
It's probably pure ignorance: no oppositional- defiance involved. In that case, I'd like to be there to bestow on them a beamish smile and a heapin' helpin' of Remedial Catechism.
Write the Bishop and copy the CDF.
Can. 757 It belongs to priests, as co-operators of the Bishops, to proclaim the Gospel of God. For the people entrusted to their care, this task rests especially on parish priests, and on other priests entrusted with the care of souls. Deacons also are to serve the people of God in the ministry of the word, in union with the Bishop and his presbyterium.
Can. 767 §1 The most important form of preaching is the homily, which is part of the liturgy, and is reserved to a priest or deacon. In the course of the liturgical year, the mysteries of faith and the rules of christian living are to be expounded in the homily from the sacred text.
64. The homily, which is given in the course of the celebration of Holy Mass and is a part of the Liturgy itself, should ordinarily be given by the Priest celebrant himself. He may entrust it to a concelebrating Priest or occasionally, according to circumstances, to a Deacon, but never to a layperson. In particular cases and for a just cause, the homily may even be given by a Bishop or a Priest who is present at the celebration but cannot concelebrate.
65. It should be borne in mind that any previous norm that may have admitted non-ordained faithful to give the homily during the eucharistic celebration is to be considered abrogated by the norm of canon 767 §1. This practice is reprobated, so that it cannot be permitted to attain the force of custom.
66. The prohibition of the admission of laypersons to preach within the Mass applies also to seminarians, students of theological disciplines, and those who have assumed the function of those known as pastoral assistants; nor is there to be any exception for any other kind of layperson, or group, or community, or association.
Nuns like most monks, brothers and, obviously, laypeople are not ordained. Only priests are ordained.
If a nun truly gave the homily, the priest allowing it erred.
Truth is wasted on the obtuse.
None of you peons are allowed to read the Bible. Ever. Only the Catholic High Priests are allowed to read and interpret the Bible. They will tell you what it says.
One of the ding glimmers of womynchurch.
I am guessing there is a dearth of young sisters and postulants in that order.
I never understood why the Catholic church felt women didn’t belong in positions of preaching the gospels.
1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
I believe that you all still left that in your bibles.
You are also aware that Jesus (God) only chose men as his apostles and the priests and bishops are the successors to them.
I notice that Paul never had a problem with Pricilla’s sermons.
Pricilla was not performing a Mass, she was speaking to a group. The Mass involves the Eucharist. Nice try though.
You forgot your /s/
If you mean "public reading and teaching about the Gospel in schools, in talks, in speaking engagements, teaching at every level, Scripture scholars and theologians in Universities, using print, broadcast or digital media" etc. --- then of course women can proclaim and preach the Gospel.
E.g.I would say 80% of the DRS's (Directors of Religious Education) and 90% of the catechists at the parish level are women. Women evangelists, too --- though we need more, many more.
I "preached" on the Gospel when I gave the eulogy at my father's funeral. But was after the dismissal blessing, i.e. not structurally part of the Funeral Mass as such. Again, it has to do with the order of the Liturgy specifically, not with silencing women. We teach and preach, ubicumque et semper. Just not at homily time.
“homily at Mass”
My point is why not? I mean, I’ve never read anything in the Bible that says women may not. I don’t think Jesus turned women away.
33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints. 34 The women are to keep silent in the churches; for they are not permitted to speak, but are to subject themselves, just as the Law also says. 35 If they desire to learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is improper for a woman to speak in church. 36 Was it from you that the word of God first went forth? Or has it come to you only? 37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandment. 38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized. - 1Cr 14:33-38 NASB.
In the context, the silence (submission) of a woman is in respect to her husband, according to the law -- "Women, obey your husbands; husbands, honor your wives." -- that 'she' not put herself above her husband, especially in the midst of the congregation. This also has multiple dimensions of protection for the family and the church.
But to say that a women -- in every circumstance -- is not permitted to preach the Gospel, then you have taken the armor from her feet, the full armor of God, to be shod with the Gospel of truth. (Eph 6: 13-15)
If it is a cloister of Nuns, only, would they not the have the commission to preach the Word?
But ultimately, it wasn't the women handing out Gospel tracks whose tables were overturned, it was the beer tables, the stuffed animal tables, and bingo tables that defiled the temple.
Short answer, as Catholicism sees it,
So then "What is the nature of the priesthood? Why are priests males?"
In 1994, in Pope John Paul II's official explanation, which was supposed to lay these questions to rest, he just said (ahem) "the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women."
In other words, he was arguing, not from his own authority, but from his own lack of authority: the priesthood is a special role specially set out by Jesus when he chose a dozen men out of his group of male and female followers. Thus it is based on His example: nobody here has the authority to change this.
I can imagine a whole lot of questions that might arise from this line of thinking. Such as
And my answer is: I don't know!
In a toss up between an argument-driven practice or an example-driven practice, Catholics (and Orthodox) go with example.
This is pretty scandalous in a world where the explanation comes first, then the practice. But Catholics and Orthodox say, no, the example comes first, then the practice, and then the explanation. Because this is not something we invented: this is something we received.
What is the logic behind that? Teaching I can see as that is what Paul commanded. But reading Scripture in a service isn't allowed by anyone but the above?
The nun could read the readings; the priest always reads the Gospel and gives the homily.
Find another retreat center.
Lay ministers can read the First and Second Readings, but not the Gospel.
Where are you getting the idea that Catholics are not allowed to read the Bible?
Some plamplet? Some preacher who hates Catholicism?
Who is that? I don’t think that name is in the Bible.
“You are also aware that Jesus (God) only chose men as his apostles and the priests and bishops are the successors to them.”
Because as you must also be aware:
Jesus (God) only chose fishermen and tax collectors as his apostles
So why are not the priests and bishops, who are the successors to them, mending nets and filing tax liens?
I just got back from back to school shopping frenzy. I didn't mean to be taken seriously.
My post was not meant to be taken seriously.
A priest must preside at the Mass, because only a consecrated priest is enabled, through having received the sacrament of priesthood, to consecrate the bread and the wine—with Christ acting through him.
Since the priest presides at the Mass, it is a reasonable rule that he should read the Gospel, while a lay person or persons are often or usually chosen to read the epistles.
That is at Mass. Of course, any Catholic—or anyone else—is welcome to read the Gospels, either to themselves or aloud, outside of the Mass. It would be perfectly legitimate, for example, for a lay person to read the gospel to others at a Bible study class.
This rule is not necessary, per se, but it is the rule, as set down by the Church, because the Gospel selections, in which Jesus himself usually appears and speaks, are honored above the two other biblical texts read at every Mass.
If there is a deacon present, then he, too, is permitted to read the gospel.
These are not unchangeable laws, but they are reasonable ones, as set down by the Church and by long custom.
I misspelled it. Priscilla. She and her husband founded the church at Ephesus. Acts 18.
Women are not ordained, they are not permitted to give the Homily in Church during Mass. Unordained men are not permitted either.
He also chose Paul a former tent maker, in short he chose a cross section of society but they were all male.
No such thing as a "lay minister". You're thinking of a lector.
The fishermen and tax collector didn’t continue as fishermen and a tax collector.
The relevant passage: (Acts 18:26) [Apollos] began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Auila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
IMO, this is far from saying Priscilla “gave sermons”. I could elaborate further, but I’m limited by my iPhone. At any rate, I think an honest reading of that passage paints a picture of a couple inviting a friend to their house to explain how he is in error.
IOW the scene I imagine is one where, over dinner, some friends have a friendly conversation, where two are helping the one perfect his faith. Nothing more dramatic than that; certainly nothing like Priscilla standing up and giving a sermon to a group of people.
I don’t doubt they did, and it’s clearly (started) in their house. However the passage in Romans nor in Acts indicate with any clarity that Priscilla gave sermons, when people met there for the purpose of celebrating Mass.
Again, the passage in Acts merely indicates three people met at their house for the purpose of helping Apollos perfect his faith. This is not Mass in the strict sense, which is why any teaching Priscilla engaged in is perfectly understood to be not only acceptable but required of anyone of faith, no matter the gender.
IOW, I imagine (and this is probably Church teaching too) that Priscilla and Aquila probably had friends over for dinner to share the faith, to fellowship, etc. but such instances, as described in Acts for example, we’re not church “services” (if you call it that) or “Mass” (as we Catholics say).
That is, the instance in Acts was not for the purpose of worshipping God. It was to instruct a fellow Christian in the matters of Faith, which Carholic women are not only “free” to do but encouraged to do.