Skip to comments.Church MilitantTV: Catholic Voter Quandary
Posted on 08/25/2012 12:30:50 PM PDT by sayuncledave
Hello everyone and welcome to The Vortex where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed. Im Michael Voris.
A big question has erupted lately around the question of how should Catholics vote. The choice for faithful Catholics isnt between Obama and Romney. The idea of voting for Obama is simply off the table. No the choice is between voting for Romney or not. Under the or not category that could mean either just not voting for president at all, voting for a 3rd party guy or writing someone in.
Now immediately the knee jerk and valid response on the part of many is what do you mean; not voting at all IS a vote for Obama because your vote isnt able to be used to cancel out a vote FOR him. And that is absolutely true and valid. As a matter of fact, in every presidential race I have voted with the exception of Ronald Reagan, I have for voted for the guy I did so that I could vote AGAINST the other guy. This strategy is often referred to as choosing the lesser of two evils. And it is a very logical short term strategy. In the case before us in this current election .. we have a man who is enemy of life, morality, and truth. It is unthinkable that may Catholic could cats a vote for Obama. So the thinking goes then we have to hold our nose and vote for Romney .. not because hes Romney, but because hes NOT Obama.
Lets look at this a little more deeply. Faithful Catholics dont want Obama because he is a conduit for evil no doubt about it. But think of this .. if/when a faithful Catholic goes into the voting booth and pulls a lever for Romney he is pulling the lever for a man who supports same-sex civil unions and has stated that he thinks such couples should be able to adopt.
In short, the dilemma is a guy who supports a heck of a lot of evil, or a guy who supports a little less evil. Man, thats our choice. And heres the root of the problem. Faithful Catholics and under political conservatives have been used and abused by the Republican Party establishment for decades. In five of the last 8 presidential elections, a republican has won.
Abortion on demand is still the law of the land and America has continued her downward moral spiral, granted at varying speeds depending on which party is in control.
But thats just the point it boils down to a question of just how fast we are rocketing to 1 hell. Warp speed if the democrats are in charge, cruise control if the Republicans are. BUT THERE IS NEVER A REVERSAL OF COURSE. At some point, Catholics and other like minded moral people, who believe that the number one issue with America is not the economy but moral rot, have got to get out of this box of vote for the bad guy OR the REALLY bad guy.
Moral conservatives have been neglected and thrown crumbs from the table paid lip service for decades by the GOP establishment EXACTLY like African American voters have been abused and thrown crumbs from the table and paid lip service by the Democratic establishment for those same decades.
Million of children are still being aborted and the much of African American community is still mired in crushing poverty. How many elections does it take to realize that the establishment of both parties are conning their base for votes.
Just as the primary season began heating up .. leading republicans were putting the word out that all the moral values talk should stop that we needed to concentrate on the economy and nothing else. They got quote the backlash for that.
The talk quickly died away, but it was revealing. It revealed where the heart and mind of party leadership is. And it aint with the moral agenda. Now .. granted .. theres nothing at this late stage .. less than 90 days before the election that can happen to change the way this whole sorry game of money and influence and back-scratching is played .. not right now that is.
But there will be another election .. presumably and it is in the run up to the next one that serious moral conservatives .. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, have to take a good hard look in the mirror and ask themselves if they are really gonna keep supporting the party that takes us to hell at a slower pace.
Moral conservatives get treated this way because the party leadership knows at the end of the day .. most, practically all will choose the lesser of two evils option and therefore, the party establishment never has to give an account because they never have to suffer any consequences. Now there are good moral conservatives within the party, both parties as well as some fringe parties. Polls continue to show that around 40 percent of Americans identify themselves as conservatives. That probably varies on a range depending on what issue comes up specifically.
But nonetheless, these numbers are not small. Imagine what would happen if all the moral conservatives from both the republican and democratic parties .. not just supporters, but leaders as well, elected office holders, movers and shakers, the influence leaders who are sick of the status quo, but have resigned themselves to it, imagine if immediately after this election .. in preparation for the next .. said, thats it. Nothing ever really changes. A new party is needed where men and women from within the current party establishments leave the old game and start an entirely new one? What would be the possibilities?
Right now the system is set up within each party to simply hold on to power. What is done with that power the moral good is held hostage to the desire for power at almost any cost just for its own sake.
This would require a bold move .. motivated by conscience and a desire to see the moral good prevail .. on the part of current leaders. The rank and file joe average voter doesnt have the ability to pull this off. But leaders within the parties do.
Whats to prevent them from getting on the phone with each other and talking about this idea. Its the country and culture thats at stake after all their political careers are of no consequence.
If they try and lose, so what? They would have gone down in a blaze of glory fighting for the good, the true and the beautiful. But one thing is clear and it is this moral conservatives, Catholics and others simply cannot be content to keep going into the booth and voting for FEWER intrinsic evils and expect that anything is gonna besides the SPEED with which we are morally decomposing.
Its highly doubtful that Obama supporters .. the tens of millions of them that will vote for him in a few weeks are undergoing any such moral dilemma and self-examination. They back him precisely BECAUSE of the evils he supports .. abortion .. same-sex marriage and so forth. Until moral conservatives can back a candidate with the same conviction and eagerness .. instead of this lackluster hold your nose approach, America will continue to disintegrate. Its nothing else than a matter of speed, thats all.
In order for the political order to change, the political process must change. When each party has become morally corrupt and only differ in degree, its time to hit the reset button.
GOD Love you, Im Michael Voris
There are NO “moral conservatives” in the Democratic Party. It’s like talking about the “good Nazis” or the “good Khmer Rouge.”
On November 6th, the only moral vote is for the least bad candidate who can win—Romney. As Michael Voris says, any other vote is a vote for Obama.
I am all in favor of having a choice that is better than Romney, McCain, Bush, Dole, Bush, etc. But once the primaries are over, that possibility is foreclosed, and voting for the lesser of two evils IS the only moral vote.
Descending into moral rot SLOWER is better than descending into moral rot FASTER. The only place where people have a third alternative is in heaven.
Speaking of which, why have Catholics always been so intertwined with the Demoncrat party?
Voris is an extraordinarily admirable man. For some reason not all of the Catholics like him, but he is the best member of his species. He even makes a person like me, a bible thumping baptist, feel tempted to convert whenever I hear him stand up for his principles. (Of course, then I remember that their dogmas are incompatible with the bible.) He reminds me of Bishop Fulton Sheen.
The differences between Romney and Obama center primarily around the chin and complexion. I cannot think of a more vile, lying and degenerate duo than Obozo and Mittens.
Catholics are right in the middle of the spectrum and vote about 50%-50% for each party, and usually choose the popular vote winner (Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, etc.) in every presidential election... yet I keep hearing people saying Catholics "have always been a reliable Democrat voting bloc" and are "wholly intertwined with the Demoncrat party"
Jews are usually extremely liberal on the issues, and give at least 70-80% of their votes to the Democrats in every election, reliably voting for the Democrat Presidential candidate in every Presidential election over the last 70+ years... but I keep hearing people say the Jewish vote is "in play" and "winnable for the Republicans"
Am I the only one who finds this analysis of religious voting patterns bizarre? If we analyzed geography this way, we'd list Vermont as a "swing state" and Ohio as "totally owed by the Democrats"
The real problem is in the Catholic leadership. Many Bishops, Priests, Nuns, or even official organizations, tend to endorse leftist social gospel, something Voris also has condemned and discussed. Voris did a program on it called “Soros’ Catholics” or some such thing. You’ll find it under his CIA (Catholic investigative agency) episodes.
Mr. Voris is famous for advocating monarchy. Now he wants his own electoral party? Make up your mind!
“.....why have Catholics always been so interwined with the Democrat party?”
Not my extended Catholic family of Americans of Italian ancestry.
Most of us have been life-long Republicans. My late uncle, who lived on Long Island, New York, was an official of the Republican party on Long Island many years ago.
Most of my present day Massachusetts relatives, Catholics, are conservatives, any they have lived in Massachusetts their entire lives. Same goes for my New York area relatives.
My first cousin, Catholic and an elementary school teacher on Long Island, told me this in an e-mail message last Christmas while mentioning Obama....she said “I want him and his vacationing family GONE!”
Yep. Voris is great on social and moral issues affecting our nation and the world at large. However, his staunch anti-Protestantism prevents a PCA(Presbyterian Church in America) layman such as myself from complete agreement with him.
There shouldn’t be a quandary. If Catholic voters can’t bring themselves to vote for Mormon Romney, then they should vote for Catholic Ryan. But not voting is a vote for obama. Voting third party has the same effect.
Paul Ryan urges Catholics to act before religious freedoms erode
Dolan: Ryan Is a Great Public Servant (great insight into Ryan's views)
Paul Ryans Bishop Defends Him Amid Attacks on His Application of Church Teaching
Paul Ryan, Catholic Who Looks to Church's Social Teaching, Tapped as Romney Running Mate
The other Ryan: the candidates wife, Janna
Paul Ryan, Joe Biden, and Liberal False Equivalence
Ryan as VP Pick Continues Election Year Focus on Catholicism
Paul Ryan Faces Left-Wing Religious Attack
Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Holiness (Paul Ryan)
Paul Ryan: Midwesterner, Catholic, intellectual
Though there is nothing inherently wrong with that. It would be weird if a Catholic, or a Baptist, or a whatever, didn’t stand for what they believe in. I have serious issues with Catholicism which I would never surrender for the sake of being liked.
I’ve watched a few of these Church Militant TV issues and find myself agreeing more than not. So I’m bumping this one.
Much of this happened because of the treatment of immigrants from Europe, especially Ireland and Italy in the late 19th century. The Democrat Party bosses inthe big cities saw huge opportunities in creating new voters, so they helped these folks get jobs, find places to live, and made sure they got to the polls. These immigrants looked at the two parties, saw the Democrats helping them with the problems in their lives, and then the Republicans who were rich people and business owners, making life difficult for them, and the die was cast.
Catholic immigrants in the 19th and 20th centuries faced extremely hostile opposition from the Republicans and the overall establishment. You may wish to view the editorial cartoons of that era for evidence. Thomas Nast comes to mind as a particularly antiCatholic cartoonist. Google is your friend when you wish to view his contribution to American culture.
Every non-Catholic political conservative needs to know that Michael Voris sees them as a "cancer to be eliminated" and sees democracy as "an experiment doomed to failure". Two years ago, almost to the week, Voris revealed his real desire for America (and stunningly, some FReepers actually applauded it). The August 12, 2010 "RealCatholic TV" YouTube-hosted video that was the subject of the FR thread Catholic Government [Michael Voris video] has since been pulled, but copies exist elsewhere. So that there is no mistaking the message, I took the time to transcribe the entire video. Here's the complete text for the Michael Voris/RealCatholicTV video episode titled "Catholic Government", dated August 12, 2010:
Hello everyone, and welcome to "The Vortex", where lies and falsehoods are trapped and exposed. I'm Michael Voris.
There's an inherent problem with democracy. Actually, it's definitional. It's this: everyone gets to vote. That's right, EVERYONE gets to vote.
Consider for a moment: the informed get to vote, those who have studied the candidates and issues, and consider the impact not only on themselves but the society at large. But in addition to the informed, the ignorant get to vote as well, those who have studied nothing and don't care about anything except themselves and their own narrow interests.
Imagine the scene: two voters, walking into voting booths side-by-side. One casts a vote with an eye to improving society at large, by rolling back abortion, defending traditional marriage, or reducing government's ability to crush families with heavy taxation, etc. Such a voter casts his vote with an eye to the common good - the authentic common good, what's best for the culture as a whole. Right next to his is a voter who doesn't give a hoot about society at large. All he cares about is his own selfish interests: insuring abortion stays legal so he can have sex with no consequences, or have his decision to have sex with another man celebrated as a right. Such a voter exhibits little else than an adolescent preoccupation with self-absorption. Imagine, he actually gets to vote! What a country! What a system! And it is a system that will end in self-destruction.
The nature of man is to be self-absorbed. That is because our nature is fallen. It no longer looks at God. Rather, it looks into a mirror. In fact, it stares into the mirror, totally absorbed, and can think of little else. This is why, if we're going to insist on a system where we're going to elect leaders - if we're going to insist on that system - only virtuous people should be allowed to vote. Ruthless men and women who, knowing human nature very well, and thereby the means to control and manipulate it, hold great influence over the selfish masses. They connive and scheme their way to power by appealing to the most base level of human ignorance, namely, to a false sense of liberty. They class everything in terms of "rights": a "right" to marry your homosexual sex partner, a "right" to kill your child, a "right" to have others in society pay for your lack of effort, your desire for contraception, food, housing, medical services, education, clothes - anything that can be imagined. Such societal parasites will cast their votes in such a way that will only hasten the destruction of a nation. It's like a cancer destroying its host. It enjoys ravaging the body, until the body is dead.
The cancer must be eliminated, and the only way to prevent a democracy from committing suicide is to limit the vote to faithful Catholics. Only a true Catholic nation in fact will survive, can survive, because only truly Catholic people will be the ones looking at God & not staring in the mirror. When they cast their their votes, they cast them with an eye to what God desires, not fallen human nature. But as the body politic continues to be ravaged by the cancer of ignorant self-centered voters, it becomes more and more clear that a national euthanasia is occurring.
But in truth, this is really the way the whole idea of democracy is little less than an experiment doomed to failure from the outset. Eventually, the evil in the heart of man overtakes him, when he dismisses God. No, the only way to run a country is by benevolent dictatorship. A Catholic monarch, who protects his people from themselves, and bestows on them what they need, not necessarily what they want, who protects their rights as human beings. It was this political system that caused Europe to emerge from the morass of marauding barbarians and create Western Civilization. A noble Catholic monarch advances the common good while loving and caring for his people. If you think about it, this is exactly how the universe is governed, isn't it? "Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth as it is in Heaven."
God bless you, I'm Michael Voris.
You know, the funny thing here is that you’ve posted this in response to an article that espouses either truly moral republican candidates or a third party which truly espouses moral stances conservatism demands. Does this mean that you, Alex, are in fact against standing against abortion, so-called gay “marriage”, et al? No? In that case, perhaps the diatribe belongs in a more appropriate spot, doesn’t it?
Do you agree with Voris that non-Catholic political conservatives should lose the right to vote, that non-Catholic political conservatives are a "cancer to be eliminated"? Do you agree with Voris that our constitutional republic is "an experiment doomed to failure"?
Do you agree with Voris, and favor an America ruled by a Catholic monarchy?
To agree on this site, dedicated to Constitutional liberty as it is, runs the risk of being banned as some outspoken monarchists indeed have been.
To disagree is to disavow an apparent core tenet of their belief.
So, expect no answer to your questions, Alex Murphy. I’ve not gotten one since that monarchist guy in Texas got canned, I forget his screen name but he developed an odd fixation on trains much like Willie Green, shortly before departing.
That seems pretty consistent with the founders:
"Hence it is that democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and in general have been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths... A republic, by which I mean a government in which a scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect and promises the cure for which we are seeking." (James Madison, Federalist Papers, the McClean Edition, Federalist Paper #10, page 81, 1788)
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote!" Franklin, Benjamin
A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine. - Thomas Jefferson
Our real disease - which is democracy. - Alexander Hamilton
Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. - John Adams
Democracy will soon degenerate into an anarchy; such an anarchy that every man will do what is right in his own eyes and no man's life or property or reputation or liberty will be secure, and every one of these will soon mould itself into a system of subordination of all the moral virtues and intellectual abilities, all the powers of wealth, beauty, wit, and science, to the wanton pleasures, the capricious will, and the execrable [abominable] cruelty of one or a very few. - John Adams
A democracy is a volcano which conceals the fiery materials of its own destruction. These will produce an eruption and carry desolation in their way. The known propensity of a democracy is to licentiousness [excessive license] which the ambitious call, and ignorant believe to be liberty. - Fisher Ames
No kidding. Most Catholics on FR seem to have trouble with the statement that a functional, constitutional representative republic is the best form of government over any country, at any time. I suspect that many secretly believe that a "benevolent Catholic dictatorship" is better than a constitutional republic. Voris certainly thinks so, but how many Catholics publicly take Voris to task for it? The silence is deafening.
Ive not gotten one since that monarchist guy in Texas got canned, I forget his screen name but he developed an odd fixation on trains much like Willie Green, shortly before departing.
That would be B-Chan, who was banned for posting his death-wish for democracy and preference for Monarchy, on a Voris thread.
1) We have a short term political problem:
Personally, I am voting for Romney because the alternative is just too horrific. Hopefully, it will buy us time for the longer term strategies to take effect.
2) Long term political strategies:
I am working with local Tea Parties. We have already won some major victories and we have moved moral and conservative candidates into positions where they have a really likelihood of moving into positions of power.
3) We need a moral revival in this nation starting with our CHILDREN!
Our **most** important mission field is our **own** children. The next most important mission field is the children of our congregation. Once we fully fulfill our responsibilities in these two areas, then we can reach out and be missionaries to others. Sending children into godless government schools is shear idiocy if we expect our children to adopt the Faith of their Fathers. Properly evangelizing our own children will yield good fruit in the future, and possibly armies of missionaries who will work to change the hearts of people one at a time.
Dirty poor and illiterate Catholics managed somehow to educate their children in tuition-free Catholic schools. Catholics in Wichita, Kansas, do it **today**! Now! So?...Why can't Christians across this nation do it NOW! If nuns were essentially dedicated volunteers, then why can faithful Christians ( especially those who are retired) volunteer as well? Do we lack tuition-free Christian schooling because there are too many government teachers sitting in the pews? Is it because too many wives of ministers are government teachers and employees? Are Christian leaders afraid of biting the hand that puts money in the collection plate?
We must pray for our nation but honestly I don't know why God would show us any favor:
1) Believing Christians continue to send their kids into godless indoctrination camps where their children **must** think and reason godlessly just to cooperate in the classroom. Do do this to a child is **fundamentally** against every Christian principle!
2) Millions can turn out to buy a chicken sandwich and somehow we can't shut down every abortion center in this nation and peacefully and legally make it impossible for them to make a profit? Really? Sure we could, if the will to do it were really there.
Descending into moral rot SLOWER is better than descending into moral rot FASTER.
It buys time. Which is sorely needed.
The Progressive Marxists got our nation to this point through infiltrating education ( which was really easy given that its been a socialist-entitlement from the beginning) and legislative gradualism. Little by little they tightened the ratchet.
So....For Christian conservatives to get **everything** they want **immediately** would require a bloody revolution. Personally, I think that would be horrific and absolutely every possible alternative must be explored and fully exploited to avoid that.
If Christians and moral conservatives can turn the ratchet in their direction perhaps in fifty years we can achieve **all** our goals. We must start with education, just as the Progressive Marxists did. We must work to completely shut down government owned and run K-12 schooling and get as many kids out of the Marxist dominated colleges as possible. ( Charles Murray has some good ideas on how to do that.)
Peace be with you
Are you having trouble saying that a functional, constitutional representative republic is the best form of government over any country, at any time?
Not at all, providing that the principles it is based upon are compatible with Catholic / Christian values. But not all republics are equal.
Are you having trouble saying that democracies are not objectively the same as republics and that a tyranny of a majority is less desirable than what Plato called philosopher kings, providing they espouse a wholly Christian philosophy?
Peace be with you
To be honest I’d much rather have the Papists running things than Barack Hussain Obama, Mitt Romney, Karl Rove, Nancy Pelosi, and so on and so forth. Voris is fundamentally right on Democracy, which is what our Republic has certainly devolved into, especially with the healthcare ruling. There is essentially no constitutional protected rights anymore, and I don’t expect them to be retrieved any time soon with our current flock of “representative” leaders. What will likely happen is this: At some point the ponzi scheme that is social security, medicare, medicaid and all the other government programs will reach a point where the banksters and politicians can no longer kick the can down the road. If the military is not stripped bare and if we do not immediately get invaded by the Russians and Chinese, then the economy will collapse, we’ll probably still get invaded, and what we’ll have at the end is a monarchy. And, in fact, there will be monarchies across the world, with little Hitlers here or there rising up from the ruins of the former capitalist economies that tried socialism and Godlessness and faced the inevitable result: absolute rule by evil men.
But this (arguing over Catholic Monarchies, Protestant monarchies) is like arguing over Utopias or our pet ideology, looking to a perfect world. The world will never be perfect, there will never be a perfect governmental order, and that is because men are inherently imperfect and prone to delusions and wickedness. A discussion about the tooth fairy or Santa Claus would be more beneficial.
Appreciate the effort. There aren't many Catholics that prefer a monarchy. I understand the logic and the appeal to the rational, but the fact is that nowhere in Catholic theology is the prescription of temporal government.
Is that your answer to my question, or an evasion? Where do you stand on the mentioned moral evils, such as abortion, so-called gay “marriage,” et al? If your sole intention was to insert another anti-Voris diatribe, take it to a more appropriate spot, such as your own posting, please. Your opinion of Voris has no bearing on the merits of the words of the original post. All it does is repeat your opinion.
LULWAT...? I can’t begin to read that many words
Thanks AM. Very interesting.
s, w added interest ping.