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Does Jesus Condemn Tradition?
Catholic Exchange ^ | August 30, 2012 | MARCELLINO D'AMBROSIO, PH.D.

Posted on 08/30/2012 2:39:06 PM PDT by NYer

One of the great battle cries of the Protestant Reformation was “sola scriptura!” Many thought that the Catholic Church had cluttered up the simple Christian faith by adding all sorts of practices, customs and doctrines over the centuries. They thought the Church in their day was guilty of exactly the same Pharisaical obsession with traditions condemned by Jesus in this Sunday’s gospel (Mark 7:1-23). The solution, it seemed, was simple. Let’s purify the Church by ditching all these traditions and keeping the Bible alone.

But if we read this portion of the Bible closely, the Lord is not telling us that tradition is a dirty word. His apostle Paul, in fact, tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 to “hold fast to the traditions you received from us, either by our word or by letter.”

“Tradition” simply means something that is handed or passed on from one person to another, one generation to another. The question to ask when examining any particular tradition is “where did it come from?” Its value depends on its origin. Did it come from Jesus? His apostles? Some pious believers who lived centuries later? The traditions Paul passed down were divine (from the Lord) and apostolic traditions, like the meaning and importance of the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 11:23-34) or the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus (I Cor 15:3-11) and so were of the utmost importance.

The traditions of the Pharisees were quite a different matter. They were not of themselves evil. But they were pious customs of human origin passed down to support the living out of the law. Unfortunately, the Pharisees were incapable of distinguishing divine law from its human support system. Worse than that, they actually used pious customs as loopholes to help them get around the difficult demands of the Torah.

If you get your Bible out and read the full text of Mark chapter 7, you’ll get a clearer picture of this. Everyone knows that when God gave Moses and the Israelites the 10 commandments, he meant business. The fourth commandment, “honor your father and mother,” means not just that young kids ought to do what their parents tell them, but that adult children should provide for the financial needs of aging parents, assuring they live out their declining years in honor and dignity. But the Pharisees had recourse to a non-biblical religious custom that absolved them from this weighty responsibility. They “dedicated” their money to God and thereby “sheltered” it, making it unavailable for parental support.

It’s not “tradition” that’s the problem here, but the deviousness of the human heart that will use piety as an excuse to evade the obligations of true religion, which include, our second reading tells us, looking after orphans and widows and presumably elderly relatives in their distress (James 1:27).

And this is exactly Jesus’ point in this Sunday’s gospel. The kinds of foods we eat don’t make us spiritually impure. No, it is the foul things that come out of the deep recesses of the human heart, wounded by original sin, that separate us from God and each other and lead to all the misery in this world.

The Pharisees thought they’d purify Israel through dietary laws and religious customs. Protestant Reformers of the 16th century thought they could purify the church by leaving behind ecclesiastical traditions and customs. History has proven both endeavors to be futile.

The answer is simple. Let’s just commit ourselves to radical obedience to God’s Word. Let’s admit our need, our sinfulness, our tendency to make excuses, and humbly, genuinely lay open our lives and hearts before God’s word and listen. As Moses tells us in Deuteronomy (4:1-8) and James tells us in his letter, let’s do more than just listen. Let’s really hear and obey. Let’s give ourselves no wiggle room, but act on God’s word, regardless of how much it may cost us.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Mainline Protestant; Theology; Worship
KEYWORDS: catholic; christian; pharisees; protestant; solascriptura; tradition

1 posted on 08/30/2012 2:39:12 PM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 08/30/2012 2:40:03 PM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: NYer

“The Pharisees thought they’d purify Israel through dietary laws and religious customs. “

Really? I thought the Torah did that.


3 posted on 08/30/2012 2:52:05 PM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: NYer
Does Jesus Condemn Tradition?

No, but I talked to Him this morning and He really can't
stand folks that call names on the internet. True story.

He had a lot of criticism for them, those name-callers.

Slammed them pretty good, He did.

4 posted on 08/30/2012 3:02:05 PM PDT by humblegunner (Pablo, being wily, pities the fool.)
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To: NYer

Here we go again ping ...


5 posted on 08/30/2012 3:07:47 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: NYer

They’re gonna rename the car “the General Sherman.”


6 posted on 08/30/2012 3:18:40 PM PDT by pogo101
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To: pogo101; Admin Moderator

Whoops. I posted to the wrong thread. Haste makes waste. Sorry.


7 posted on 08/30/2012 3:20:32 PM PDT by pogo101
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To: Daveinyork

Rabbinic tradition evolved that was intended as “helper” law, regulatory “guidelines,” for a modern parallel, that would help the Torah compliant avoid accidental disobedience to direct Torah commands. This body of additional tradition was codified as Mishnah, and included such things as ritual handwashing, the Corban Rule mentioned in the article, and an amazing set of Sabbath rules.

IIRC, one such rule involved a rope of a specific length, with a stone tied to each end. With this rope, you could know how far you walked, and thus avoid walking too far. But of course you could always have a servant move the far stone to your next destination, and since a stone is a place, you could “honestly” say you had only travelled thus far between two places. No small wonder Jesus was bent on setting his people free from such nonsense.


8 posted on 08/30/2012 3:25:51 PM PDT by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Charles Henrickson

Didn’t you basically write this piece last weekend or is it just my imagination?


9 posted on 08/30/2012 3:57:21 PM PDT by PJ-Comix (Beware the Rip in the Space/Time Continuum)
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To: pogo101

Still the out of place posting was very funny, kind of like a slightly deaf eccentric uncle breaking into a conversation the family is having about a situation with a completely off topic remark.


10 posted on 08/30/2012 3:57:43 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Not left wing! Not right wing! But....CHRIST WING!)
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To: NYer

Christ condemned tradition when tradition was used get around clear cut commands of the revealed written laws of God. The law says “Honor thy father and thy mother”. Christ was condemning the use of tradition as a way to deny seeing to the needs of ones parents. It was less about the tradition itself and more about how the traditions of men were being used to justify sin and evil, in the NAME of that tradition, in direct controvention to the revealed word of God.

Christ set the written revealed word of his Father above tradition. Christ used written scripture to defeat the Devil’s wiles when Christ fasted 40 days in the desert. He didn’t use Talmudic taditions, maxims and phrases. “As it is written...” began the key phrases as Christ trounced the Devil’s temptings!


11 posted on 08/30/2012 4:11:41 PM PDT by mdmathis6 (Not left wing! Not right wing! But....CHRIST WING!)
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To: PJ-Comix; NYer; All
Didn’t you basically write this piece last weekend or is it just my imagination?

I wrote a sermon on this topic for this past Sunday:

"Tradition! Tradition!" (Sermon on Mark 7:1-13)

Yes, my sermon made many of the same points as in this article.

But when the Roman Catholic author writes, "Protestant Reformers of the 16th century thought they could purify the church by leaving behind ecclesiastical traditions and customs," he is painting with too broad a brush. I am a Lutheran pastor--a traditional, liturgical, sacramental Lutheran pastor--and I can tell you that Luther retained most traditions and customs, generally only correcting those abuses that needed to be reformed for the sake of the gospel.

12 posted on 08/30/2012 4:16:08 PM PDT by Charles Henrickson (Lutheran pastor, LCMS)
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To: NYer
The answer is simple. Let’s just commit ourselves to radical obedience to God’s Word. Let’s admit our need, our sinfulness, our tendency to make excuses, and humbly, genuinely lay open our lives and hearts before God’s word and listen. As Moses tells us in Deuteronomy (4:1-8) and James tells us in his letter, let’s do more than just listen. Let’s really hear and obey. Let’s give ourselves no wiggle room, but act on God’s word, regardless of how much it may cost us.

Reject the Pagan Traditions of Sunday, Christmas and Easter.

But celebrate on G-d's Feasts and Shabbat.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
13 posted on 08/30/2012 4:32:09 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: All
Does Jesus Condemn Tradition?
"Tradition" Is Not a Dirty Word
Essays for Lent: Tradition

Prayer and monasticism in Orthodox tradition (Prayer and silence)
The Tradition of Midnight Mass: History
Charles Borromeo and Catholic Tradition, re: Catholic Architecture [Catholic Caucus]
Revelation, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium
Tradition and Progress Not Opposed, Pope Tells Liturgy Conference
Rome's Station Churches Revive Ancient Tradition
Antioch Tradition Adorns the Church, Says Pope
CARA Reports on Religious Life Confirm Tradition [Catholic Caucus]
Apostolic Tradition [Church Fathers contra Sola Scriptura]
"Little Lost Lambeth," What Christian Tradition, Lambeth Conference & Aldous Huxley have in common

14 posted on 08/30/2012 4:44:51 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
The Pharisees thought they’d purify Israel through dietary laws and religious customs. Protestant Reformers of the 16th century thought they could purify the church by leaving behind ecclesiastical traditions and customs. History has proven both endeavors to be futile.

The Reformers desired to bring the church BACK to the orthodox faith that Jesus and His Apostles had established. Just as Jesus condemned the Pharisees for "Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition", the church of the middle ages had transgressed the Word of God. It wasn't the "ecclesiastical traditions and customs" of the early church that they rejected - since ALL of the Reformers continued nearly every one of those same customs in the newly formed churches - but the ones that did what the Pharisees had done, and that was to nullify, cancel or make void the word of God by their traditions.

The Geneva Study Bible says this about Matthew 15:6

    As much as you could, you destroyed the power and authority of the commandment: for otherwise the commandments of God stand fast in the Church of God, in spite of the world and Satan.

The People's New Testament says:

    Modern Pharisaism does the same. Church tradition leads to dogmas that set aside God's commands. The corruption of the simplicity of early Christianity is due to following human tradition.

I think Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary says it best:

    15:1-9 Additions to God's laws reflect upon his wisdom, as if he had left out something which was needed, and which man could supply; in one way or other they always lead men to disobey God. How thankful ought we to be for the written word of God! Never let us think that the religion of the Bible can be improved by any human addition, either in doctrine or practice. Our blessed Lord spoke of their traditions as inventions of their own, and pointed out one instance in which this was very clear, that of their transgressing the fifth commandment. When a parent's wants called for assistance, they pleaded, that they had devoted to the temple all they could spare, even though they did not part with it, and therefore their parents must expect nothing from them. This was making the command of God of no effect. The doom of hypocrites is put in a little compass; In vain do they worship me. It will neither please God, nor profit themselves; they trust in vanity, and vanity will be their recompence.

A good example of what the church had done to pervert the Word of God with their traditions was in how they viewed the Holy Scriptures. At the start of Christianity, the eyewitness accounts of Jesus and His teachings were passed down orally along with the prophetic proof from the Old Testament concerning the Messiah. The Apostles and disciples of Jesus taught those same truths to their disciples who passed along the same teachings. This was called "orthodoxy" or the truth. Once the New Testament Scriptures were composed and they were copied and passed on to additional churches and the Apostles died along with the eyewitnesses to Jesus, these Scriptures became the repository of the same truths handed down by the oral tradition.

What the church of the early middle ages was guilty of doing was slowly substituting the authority of the Scriptures for the self-claimed authority of the magesterium and whatever "oral tradition" they ruled was part of the faith ABOVE what the Bible said. What that error led to was the creation of various customs that did what the Pharisees had done - made the Word of God null and void. The Reformer's goal was to rid the church of those dogmas and customs that could not be proved by Scripture or which made void the doctrines that were clearly taught (i.e.; justification by faith).

15 posted on 08/30/2012 9:19:24 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Reject the Pagan Traditions of Sunday, Christmas and Easter.
But celebrate on G-d's Feasts and Shabbat.

Ah, so Sunday isn't also God's day? Christmas I couldn't care less about; but Easter... without the Resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity. Easter is, of all the religious holidays, feasts, and fasts, the best. None of the Feasts in Judaism come close to [displaying] the hope that Easter clearly presents: Resurrection.

16 posted on 08/30/2012 10:59:18 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: NYer; All
YES - CHRIST absolutely CONDEMNED the following the Traditions of man, which the Catholics also follow as did the Pharisees

Mark 7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mark 7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Matthew 15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Matthew 15:6: And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mark 7:8: For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

17 posted on 08/30/2012 11:50:01 PM PDT by AmbassadorForChrist
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To: AmbassadorForChrist

Catholics and Orthodox follow Christ’s tradition, Holy Tradition as handed down from Christ through the Apostles. Quite different. The Holy Tradition is the interpretation of scripture as Christ taught — hence we have a belief in the Trinity etc. — once that is removed then anything goes — see the Oneness Pentecostals etc.


18 posted on 08/31/2012 1:05:15 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: AmbassadorForChrist; Cronos
Mark 7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

This is the same as Matt. 15:3 - there is a distinction between human tradition (that we should reject) and apostolic tradition (that we must accept).

Matthew 15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Jesus condemns human traditions that void God's word. This verse to condemn all tradition. But this verse has nothing to do with the tradition we must obey that was handed down to us from the apostles. (Here, the Pharisees, in their human tradition, gave goods to the temple to avoid taking care of their parents, and this voids God's law of honoring one's father and mother.)

CHRIST absolutely CONDEMNED the following the Traditions of man, which the Catholics also follow as did the Pharisees

In Mark 3:14 and 16:15, Jesus commands the apostles to preach (not write) the gospel to the world. Jesus gives no commandment to the apostles to write, and gives them no indication that the oral apostolic word he commanded them to communicate would later die in the fourth century. If Jesus wanted Christianity to be limited to a book (which would be finalized four centuries later), wouldn't He have said a word about it?

Luke 10:16 says - He who hears you (not "who reads your writings"), hears me. The oral word passes from Jesus to the apostles to their successors by the gracious gifts of the Holy Spirit. This succession has been preserved in the Holy Catholic Church.

In Acts 15:27 - Judas and Silas, successors to the apostles, were sent to bring God's infallible Word by "word of mouth." In 1 Peter 1:25, we learn that the Word of the Lord abides forever and that Word is the good news that was "preached" (not read) to you. Because the Word is preached by the apostles and it lasts forever, it must be preserved by the apostles' successors, or this could not be possible. Also, because the oral word abides forever, oral apostolic tradition could not have died in the fourth century with all teachings being committed to Scripture.

When we look to 2 Thess. 2:15, we read, in fact, it was this apostolic tradition that allowed the Church to select the Bible canon (apostolicity was determined from tradition). Since all the apostles were deceased at the time the canon was decided, the Church had to rely on the apostolic tradition of their successors. Hence, the Bible is an apostolic tradition of the Catholic Church. This also proves that oral tradition did not cease with the death of the last apostle. Other examples of apostolic tradition include the teachings on the Blessed Trinity, the hypostatic union (Jesus had a divine and human nature in one person), the filioque (that the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son), the assumption of Mary, and knowing that the Gospel of Matthew was written by Matthew.

Is the Bible the "pillar of truth" in the Christian religion? No. According to the Bible Itself, the Church is the "pillar of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15), not the Bible. Is private interpretation of the Bible condoned in the Bible Itself? No, it is not (2 Peter 1:20). Was individual interpretation of Scripture practiced by the early Christians or the Jews? Again, "NO" (Acts 8:29-35). Can there be more than one interpretation of the Bible? No. The word "truth" is used several times in the New Testament. However, the plural version of the word "truth" never appears in Scripture. Therefore, there can only be one Truth.

Is the Bible the sole "teaching from God?" No. The Bible Itself states that there are "oral" teachings and traditions that are to be carried on to the present-day (2 Thessalonians 2:15; 1 Corinthians 11:2; 2 Timothy 2:2; Romans 10:17; 1 Peter 1:24-25). These teachings are what the Catholic Church considers "Sacred Apostolic Tradition." This type of "Tradition" never changes because it was passed down by the Apostles themselves. It is not the same as the man-made traditions condemned in Scripture. The man-made traditions condemned in Scripture were those of the Jewish Pharisees. In fact, as Christians, we are suppose to disassociate ourselves from persons who do not follow Apostolic Tradition (2 Thessalonians 3:6). If oral tradition is not to be followed, why did St. Paul state Christ said something that is not recorded in the Gospels (Acts 20:35)? St. Paul must have "heard" this saying, not read it from any Gospel or "Scripture," thereby, proving that some things Christ said were not recorded in the Gospels (John 21:25) and were passed on orally among His disciples instead, but were just as valid as anything written since St. Paul himself used one of these oral passages in one of his own epistles.

Does the Bible state It is the sole or final authority of Christianity? No. Neither this statement nor anything even close to it appears anywhere in the New Testament. In fact, Christ said that the Church is to resolve disputes among Christians, not Scripture (Matthew 18:17).

19 posted on 08/31/2012 6:13:23 AM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: Springfield Reformer

“No small wonder Jesus was bent on setting his people free from such nonsense.”

Only to find themselves enslaved to similar nonsense.


20 posted on 08/31/2012 6:41:41 AM PDT by Daveinyork
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To: NYer
Does the Bible state It is the sole or final authority of Christianity? No. Neither this statement nor anything even close to it appears anywhere in the New Testament.

Answering "no" does't make it so.

Acts 17:10-11
10 The brethren immediately sent Paul and Silas away by night to Berea, and when they arrived, they went into the synagogue of the Jews.
11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.

The Bible itself commends the Bereans for searching out the scriptures (written word) and using them to the judge the preaching and teaching of Paul and Silas (oral tradition as you call it). It commends them for it! The written word is primary, what you want to call oral tradition is secondary.

The Bereans did not use the scriptures as a means to an end ... it WAS the end ... the final authority with which to judge; to judge what??? ... Get ready for it ... hard to swallow truth coming ... ready for it? ... They used the scriptures to judge APOSTOLIC PREACHING AND TEACHING!

... and the truth will set you free ...

21 posted on 08/31/2012 7:48:06 AM PDT by dartuser ("If you are ... what you were ... then you're not.")
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To: OneWingedShark
U-2012> Reject the Pagan Traditions of Sunday, Christmas and Easter.
But celebrate on G-d's Feasts and Shabbat.

Ah, so Sunday isn't also God's day? Christmas I couldn't care less about; but Easter... without the Resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity. Easter is, of all the religious holidays, feasts, and fasts, the best. None of the Feasts in Judaism come close to [displaying] the hope that Easter clearly presents: Resurrection. Reject the Pagan Traditions of Sunday, Christmas and Easter. But celebrate on G-d's Feasts and Shabbat. Ah, so Sunday isn't also God's day? Christmas I couldn't care less about; but Easter... without the Resurrection of Jesus there is no Christianity. Easter is, of all the religious holidays, feasts, and fasts, the best. None of the Feasts in Judaism come close to [displaying] the hope that Easter clearly presents: Resurrection.

Yah'shua's resurrection occurred on the G-d's Commanded Feast of First Fruits,
which occurs ( as detailed in Leviticus 23:15) on the day following the Shabbat
following Pesach, which was the first day of the week.
First Fruits is when the first and finest of the harvest are offered to YHvH.
It happens on the first day of the week, which begins at sundown on Saturday
as outlined in the WORD.

Constantine at Nicea in the mood of anti-semitism rejected anything Jewish,
introduced pagan feasts as a substitute for G-d's commanded feast day.

Fifty days after the feast of First Fruits was the G-d commanded feast
of Shavuot (Pentecost in the Greek) where all observant Jews were
to be in Jerusalem to celebrate the giving of the WORD(Torah) to Moses,
spending the day reading YHvH's WORD (Jesus).

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach

22 posted on 08/31/2012 9:49:05 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
Yah'shua's resurrection occurred on the G-d's Commanded Feast of First Fruits, which occurs ( as detailed in Leviticus 23:15) on the day following the Shabbat following Pesach, which was the first day of the week. First Fruits is when the first and finest of the harvest are offered to YHvH. It happens on the first day of the week, which begins at sundown on Saturday as outlined in the WORD. Constantine at Nicea in the mood of anti-semitism rejected anything Jewish, introduced pagan feasts as a substitute for G-d's commanded feast day. Fifty days after the feast of First Fruits was the G-d commanded feast of Shavuot (Pentecost in the Greek) where all observant Jews were to be in Jerusalem to celebrate the giving of the WORD(Torah) to Moses, spending the day reading YHvH's WORD (Jesus).

You completely miss the point. Why would I celebrate the preview when I can celebrate the thing itself? (What comes to mind is the Star Wars fans excited about the previews when they saw them [for eps 1,2,3] a few years ago... unlike Star Wars though, the real deal here [Jesus's Resurrection] is far better than the preview of a traditional feast.)

23 posted on 08/31/2012 10:07:06 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: OneWingedShark
U-2012>Yah'shua's resurrection occurred on the G-d's Commanded Feast of First Fruits, which occurs ( as detailed in Leviticus 23:15) on the day following the Shabbat following Pesach, which was the first day of the week. First Fruits is when the first and finest of the harvest are offered to YHvH. It happens on the first day of the week, which begins at sundown on Saturday as outlined in the WORD. Constantine at Nicea in the mood of anti-semitism rejected anything Jewish, introduced pagan feasts as a substitute for G-d's commanded feast day. Fifty days after the feast of First Fruits was the G-d commanded feast of Shavuot (Pentecost in the Greek) where all observant Jews were to be in Jerusalem to celebrate the giving of the WORD(Torah) to Moses, spending the day reading YHvH's WORD (Jesus).

You completely miss the point. Why would I celebrate the preview when I can celebrate the thing itself? (What comes to mind is the Star Wars fans excited about the previews when they saw them [for eps 1,2,3] a few years ago... unlike Star Wars though, the real deal here [Jesus's Resurrection] is far better than the preview of a traditional feast.)

What you call the thing itself is a Pagan feast day created by Pontiff Constantine
of the "Roman "church" purposefully to distract and impugn the Holy WORD of G-d.

Constantine, the Roman Pontiff, convened the Nicene Council in 325 CE and issued this edict:

ON THE KEEPING OF EASTER.

From the Letter of the Emperor to all those not present at the Council.
(Found in Eusebius, Vita Const., Lib. iii., 18-20.)

When the question relative to the sacred festival of Easter arose, it was
universally thought that it would be convenient that all should keep the
feast on one day; for what could be more beautiful and more desirable,
than to see this festival, through which we receive the hope of
immortality, celebrated by all with one accord, and in the same
manner? It was declared to be particularly unworthy for this, the
holiest of all festivals, to follow the custom [the calculation] of the
Jews, who had soiled their hands with the most fearful of crimes, and
whose minds were blinded. In rejecting their custom,(1) we may
transmit to our descendants the legitimate mode of celebrating Easter,
which we have observed from the time of the Saviour's Passion to the
present day[according to the day of the week].
We ought not,
therefore, to have anything in common with the Jews, for the Saviour
has shown us another way; our worship follows a more legitimate and
more convenient course(the order of the days of the week); and
consequently, in unanimously adopting this mode, we desire, dearest
brethren, to separate ourselves from the detestable company of the
Jews, for it is truly shameful for us to hear them boast that without
their direction we could not keep this feast. How can they be in the
right, they who, after the death of the Saviour, have no longer been led
by reason but by wild violence, as their delusion may urge them? They
do not possess the truth in this Easter question; for, in their blindness
and repugnance to all improvements, they frequently celebrate two
passovers in the same year. We could not imitate those who are openly
in error. How, then, could we follow these Jews, who are most
certainly blinded by error? for to celebrate the passover twice in one
year is totally inadmissible. But even if this were not so, it would still
be your duty not to tarnish your soul by communications with such
wicked people[the Jews]. Besides, consider well, that in such an
important matter, and on a subject of such great solemnity, there ought
not to be any division. Our Saviour has left us only one festal day of
our redemption, that is to say, of his holy passion, and he desired[to
establish] only one Catholic Church. Think, then, how unseemly it is,
that on the same day some should be fasting whilst others are seated
at a banquet; and that after Easter, some should be rejoicing at feasts,
whilst others are still observing a strict fast. For this reason, a Divine
Providence wills that this custom should be rectified and regulated in a
uniform way; and everyone, I hope, will agree upon this point. As, on
the one hand, it is our duty not to have anything in common with the
murderers of our Lord; and as, on the other, the custom now followed
by the Churches of the West, of the South, and of
the North, and by some of those of the East, is the most acceptable, it
has appeared good to all; and I have been guarantee for your consent,
that you would accept it with joy, as it is followed at Rome, in Africa,
in all Italy, Egypt, Spain, Gaul, Britain, Libya, in all Achaia, and in the
dioceses of Asia, of Pontus, and Cilicia. You should consider not only
that the number of churches in these provinces make a majority, but
also that it is right to demand what our reason approves, and that we
should have nothing in common with the Jews. To sum up in few
words: By the unanimous judgment of all, it has been decided that the
most holy festival of Easter should be everywhere celebrated on one
and the same day, and it is not seemly that in so holy a thing there
should be any division. As this is the state of the case, accept joyfully
the divine favour, and this truly divine command;
for all which takes
place in assemblies of the bishops ought to be regarded as proceeding
from the will of God. Make known to your brethren what has been
decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we
can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted
me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together,
seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for
destroying the evil designs of the devil
, and thus causing faith, peace,
and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my
beloved brethren.

from DOCUMENTS FROM THE FIRST COUNCIL OF NICEA [THE FIRST ECUMENICAL COUNCIL] A.D. 325

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
24 posted on 08/31/2012 11:14:09 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
What are you talking about? Easter isn't there to "distract and impugn the Holy WORD of God" (I fixed the spelling of God for you, btw) it's there to celebrate the action of God, that is the Resurrection. You keep bringing up the old Judaic Feasts and Fasts, tradition, which the church rejected as being binding upon the gentile believers recorded in Acts 15:
Acts 15
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 And certain having come down from Judea, were teaching the brethren -- `If ye be not circumcised after the custom of Moses, ye are not able to be saved;'
2 there having been, therefore, not a little dissension and disputation to Paul and Barnabas with them, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas, and certain others of them, to go up unto the apostles and elders to Jerusalem about this question,
3 they indeed, then, having been sent forward by the assembly, were passing through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the nations, and they were causing great joy to all the brethren.
4 And having come to Jerusalem, they were received by the assembly, and the apostles, and the elders, they declared also as many things as God did with them;
5 and there rose up certain of those of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying -- `It behoveth to circumcise them, to command them also to keep the law of Moses.'
6 And there were gathered together the apostles and the elders, to see about this matter,
7 and there having been much disputing, Peter having risen up said unto them, `Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe;
8 and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us,
9 and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts;
10 now, therefore, why do ye tempt God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 but, through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, we believe to be saved, even as also they.'
12 And all the multitude did keep silence, and were hearkening to Barnabas and Paul, declaring as many signs and wonders as God did among the nations through them;
13 and after they are silent, James answered, saying, `Men, brethren, hearken to me;
14 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name,
15 and to this agree the words of the prophets, as it hath been written:
16 After these things I will turn back, and I will build again the tabernacle of David, that is fallen down, and its ruins I will build again, and will set it upright --
17 that the residue of men may seek after the Lord, and all the nations, upon whom My name hath been called, saith the Lord, who is doing all these things.
18 `Known from the ages to God are all His works;
19 wherefore I judge: not to trouble those who from the nations do turn back to God,
20 but to write to them to abstain from the pollutions of the idols, and the whoredom, and the strangled thing; and the blood;
21 for Moses from former generations in every city hath those preaching him -- in the synagogues every sabbath being read.'
22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole assembly, chosen men out of themselves to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas -- Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren --
23 having written through their hand thus: `The apostles, and the elders, and the brethren, to those in Antioch, and Syria, and Cilicia, brethren, who [are] of the nations, greeting;
24 seeing we have heard that certain having gone forth from us did trouble you with words, subverting your souls, saying to be circumcised and to keep the law, to whom we did give no charge,
25 it seemed good to us, having come together with one accord, chosen men to send unto you, with our beloved Barnabas and Paul --
26 men who have given up their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ --
27 we have sent, therefore, Judas and Silas, and they by word are telling the same things.
28 `For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, no more burden to lay upon you, except these necessary things:
29 to abstain from things offered to idols, and blood, and a strangled thing, and whoredom; from which keeping yourselves, ye shall do well; be strong!'
30 They then, indeed, having been let go, went to Antioch, and having brought the multitude together, did deliver the epistle,
31 and they having read, did rejoice for the consolation;
32 Judas also and Silas, being themselves also prophets, through much discourse did exhort the brethren, and confirm,
33 and having passed some time, they were let go with peace from the brethren unto the apostles;
34 and it seemed good to Silas to remain there still.
35 And Paul and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and proclaiming good news -- with many others also -- the word of the Lord;
36 and after certain days, Paul said unto Barnabas, `Having turned back again, we may look after our brethren, in every city in which we have preached the word of the Lord -- how they are.'
37 And Barnabas counseled to take with [them] John called Mark,
38 and Paul was not thinking it good to take him with them who withdrew from them from Pamphylia, and did not go with them to the work;
39 there came, therefore, a sharp contention, so that they were parted from one another, and Barnabas having taken Mark, did sail to Cyprus,
40 and Paul having chosen Silas, went forth, having been given up to the grace of God by the brethren;
41 and he went through Syria and Cilicia, confirming the assemblies.

So, why do you intend to lay upon non-jewish believers the very things that the Holy Spirit and the early church (to include members of the Twelve) the very thing they rejected? Are you greater than God?

What you call the thing itself is a Pagan feast day created by Pontiff Constantine of the "Roman "church" purposefully to [snip]

The thing itself is, as I said, a celebration of the Resurrection; while I would like to idealistically disagree with the reasoning herein —that the day should be celebrated, universally, on the same day— because the Resurrection is big enough and good enough that it ought to be celebrated every day... the truth is that we humans would grow bored with it, there is some truth to the saying that "familiarity breeds contempt," and I must therefore accede that [officially] celebrating the Resurrection is best done at a particular time.

From your own reference:

Make known to your brethren what has been decreed, keep this most holy day according to the prescribed mode; we can thus celebrate this holy Easter day at the same time, if it is granted me, as I desire, to unite myself with you; we can rejoice together, seeing that the divine power has made use of our instrumentality for destroying the evil designs of the devil, and thus causing faith, peace, and unity to flourish amongst us. May God graciously protect you, my beloved brethren.

So again; I must ask why do you sow discord among those you call your brethren? Do you not know what God has said about such?

Proverbs 6
16 These six hath Jehovah hated, Yea, seven [are] abominations to His soul.
17 Eyes high -- tongues false -- And hands shedding innocent blood --
18 A heart devising thoughts of vanity -- Feet hasting to run to evil --
19 A false witness [who] doth breathe out lies -- And one sending forth contentions between brethren.
And again, James 3:
13 Who [is] wise and intelligent among you? let him shew out of the good behaviour his works in meekness of wisdom,
14 and if bitter zeal ye have, and rivalry in your heart, glory not, nor lie against the truth;
15 this wisdom is not descending from above, but earthly, physical, demon-like,
16 for where zeal and rivalry [are], there is insurrection and every evil matter;
17 and the wisdom from above, first, indeed, is pure, then peaceable, gentle, easily entreated, full of kindness and good fruits, uncontentious, and unhypocritical: --
18 and the fruit of the righteousness in peace is sown to those making peace.

25 posted on 08/31/2012 12:38:28 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Salvation; NYer
Have you ever seen the phrase...TLDR? It stands for Too Long, Didn't Read.

Seriously, though, I've been gone from the Religion Forum for quite some time and I come back to browse and I see that people like you and NYer are still cutting and pasting your endless arguments and links. I'm guessing you are probably arguing with the same people too.

My question, which I know you really don't have an answer for, is “How many people have come to the saving knowledge of Jesus through your arguing?” In my experience I've seen no one “argued” into believing in Jesus.

Anyway, I've seen the inside of the "polished tombs" again, and since all I see is the same dead bones, I'll leave again.

26 posted on 08/31/2012 10:58:09 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ScubieNuc; NYer

**My question, which I know you really don’t have an answer for, is “How many people have come to the saving knowledge of Jesus through your arguing?”**

You would not believe how many people have come back to the church after reading the truth as posted by Catholics like NYer and myself.


27 posted on 09/01/2012 12:21:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: mdmathis6

Did you read the Catholic definition of tradition at the beginning of the article?

This is not talking about rubrics for Mass.


28 posted on 09/01/2012 12:23:53 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I find it interesting that I asked, “How many people have come to the SAVING KNOWLEDGE OF JESUS through your arguing?” and you answered, “You would not believe how many people have COME BACK TO THE CHURCH...”

Being saved through faith in Jesus is not the same as ‘coming back to a church’. But I understand, you view your church membership as something equivilant to salvation. I know you are wrong, but I’m not going to waste yours or my time arguing with you as to why.

Now, I said I was leaving, so I’ll be true to my word.


29 posted on 09/01/2012 4:18:56 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: NYer
Worse than that, they actually used pious customs as loopholes to help them get around the difficult demands of the Torah... But the Pharisees had recourse to a non-biblical religious custom that absolved them from this weighty responsibility."

Where can I buy an Indulgence?
30 posted on 04/22/2013 10:38:15 PM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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To: UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide
Where can I buy an Indulgence?

The church is not in the business of selling indulgences. You may want to check eBay.

31 posted on 04/23/2013 3:48:49 AM PDT by NYer (Beware the man of a single book - St. Thomas Aquinas)
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To: NYer

Thank the Protestant Reformation.


32 posted on 04/25/2013 8:59:03 AM PDT by UnbelievingScumOnTheOtherSide (REPEAL WASHINGTON! -- Islam Delenda Est! -- I Want Constantinople Back. -- Rumble thee forth.)
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