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In final interview, liberal Cardinal says Church '200 years out of date'
MSNBC ^ | 09/02/2012 | Reuters

Posted on 09/02/2012 1:22:52 PM PDT by caldera599

ROME (Reuters) - The former archbishop of Milan and papal candidate Cardinal Carlo Maria Martini said the Catholic Church was "200 years out of date" in his final interview before his death, published on Saturday.

Martini, once favored by Vatican progressives to succeed Pope John Paul II and a prominent voice in the church until his death at the age of 85 on Friday, gave a scathing portrayal of a pompous and bureaucratic church failing to move with the times.

"Our culture has aged, our churches are big and empty and the church bureaucracy rises up, our rituals and our cassocks are pompous," Martini said in the interview published in Italian daily Corriere della Sera.

"The Church must admit its mistakes and begin a radical change, starting from the pope and the bishops. The pedophilia scandals oblige us to take a journey of transformation," he said in the interview.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Current Events
KEYWORDS: cardinal; heresy; nonsense; nothappening; progressive
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"Radical change"? Calls to accept the use of artificial birth control and accept divorce and remarriage like the Protestant churches, which are now decaying? Sounds like something Call to Action or the LCWR would come up with. With all due respect to His Eminence, the Church will survive. Jesus said so, or he must have failed to read Matthew 16:18 if he doesn't realize that.
1 posted on 09/02/2012 1:22:59 PM PDT by caldera599
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To: caldera599

Here’s a Catholic the default media can spend air time on.


2 posted on 09/02/2012 1:25:29 PM PDT by Steely Tom (If the Constitution can be a living document, I guess a corporation can be a person.)
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To: caldera599

I was raised Catholic. I served as an altar boy for three years before, after 2000 years, they changed from Latin to English. That’s when they lost me...I’m now a card carrying agnostic.


3 posted on 09/02/2012 1:28:04 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: gorush

It’s said that as one gets older, one gets wiser. That doesn’t apply to “infallible” institutions.


4 posted on 09/02/2012 1:32:40 PM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: caldera599

Islam is 1400 years “out of date” but I don’t see MSNBC whining about Islam.


5 posted on 09/02/2012 1:33:22 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Had enough of the freaks running the show yet?)
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To: caldera599

>>Calls to accept the use of artificial birth control and accept divorce and remarriage like the Protestant churches, which are now decaying?

Some are decaying. Some are thriving. Most are treading water. But, I get your point that if the RCC is going to act like Protestants, then they aren’t really the RCC anymore.


6 posted on 09/02/2012 1:40:12 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: FlingWingFlyer

>>Islam is 1400 years “out of date” but I don’t see MSNBC whining about Islam.

Because Catholics stopped cutting heads off a long time ago.


7 posted on 09/02/2012 1:41:54 PM PDT by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: OldNavyVet
That doesn’t apply to “infallible” institutions.

The word "apply" was highlighted (different color) on my post and it triggered an ad to some website about learning how to spell..

My Dictionary supports my spelling.

Is it just me that sees the highlighted word?

8 posted on 09/02/2012 1:41:55 PM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: OldNavyVet
You're seeing things again.

Cordially,

9 posted on 09/02/2012 1:46:47 PM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: caldera599

Priests who have acted along with modern sexual mores are the ones who are molesting boys. Right and wrong, good and evil, moral and immoral do not change over time.

Catholicism and its strict rules about sexual conduct has had it right all along. Spread of STDs, divorce, single motherhood and resulting poverty, HIV/AIDS, and sexual crimes are at remarkable highs in great part because of sexual attitudes out of control. Lifetime monogamy between people of the opposite sex is a great formula for stable, independent, and healthy families.


10 posted on 09/02/2012 1:47:01 PM PDT by MikeyB806
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To: caldera599

Maybe the church is big and empty because of the progressives that have attemtped to take it over.


11 posted on 09/02/2012 1:50:26 PM PDT by Beowulf9
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To: OldNavyVet
The Church is not infallible; the tenet of "Infallibility" comes in when the Pope issues an edict, because those are supposed to be the words of God. The Church itself has never been infallible.

Other than that, it's just people doing their best in whatever situation they end up in. It's just that some of them think they are God, like doctors and democrats.

12 posted on 09/02/2012 1:51:42 PM PDT by Bernard ("He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else' - Benjamin Franklin)
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To: gorush

I rejoined a traditional Latin Mass community in Jnauary, and haven’t looked back. The TLM is growing by leaps and bounds, and when we have a sung (Gregorian Chant Missa Solemnis) Mass, there are 10 altar boys an a church packed with families with young children.

It’s time for you to come home, gorush.


13 posted on 09/02/2012 1:55:27 PM PDT by paterfamilias
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To: Beowulf9

“Maybe the church is big and empty because of the progressives that have attemtped to take it over.”

I believe that you are spot on, Beowulf.

Se my previous post to gorush.


14 posted on 09/02/2012 1:56:41 PM PDT by paterfamilias
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To: paterfamilias

I’ll be fine, thanks.


15 posted on 09/02/2012 1:57:47 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: gorush

I am adding you to my prayer list.


16 posted on 09/02/2012 2:03:50 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Pray for our republic.)
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To: Bigg Red

Aw shucks.


17 posted on 09/02/2012 2:04:36 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: paterfamilias

Yes. It is sad but then the fact that the devil keeps turning himself into an angel of light is sad.


18 posted on 09/02/2012 2:04:50 PM PDT by Beowulf9
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To: caldera599

bad things happen.

but endorsing bad things as okay, is not okay


19 posted on 09/02/2012 2:13:16 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: gorush

I don’t think Latin was an “official” Church language until (maybe) the 7th or 8th Century. Most of the Gospels were written in Greel, and most of the early followers of Christ probably spoke the same language as Him (Aramaic).


20 posted on 09/02/2012 2:16:59 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: Alberta's Child

Thanks...I’ll have to rethink my whole agnostic position...I’ll get back to you or I’ll have my people contact your people.


21 posted on 09/02/2012 2:19:19 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: Beowulf9

Obviously, the Church has had a few too many Martinis.


22 posted on 09/02/2012 2:28:09 PM PDT by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class!)
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To: gorush

OK — great! LOL.


23 posted on 09/02/2012 2:48:11 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: gorush
But seriously.... because of language? You didn't consider that the first languages of the Faith were Hebrew/Aramaic, THEN Greek, and THEN Latin?

"Eek, and now English? Too much! There's probably no God!"

24 posted on 09/02/2012 2:50:14 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Of course...it was a joke. I don’t type well enough to justify my position to you....and I hope you feel the same way.


25 posted on 09/02/2012 2:53:05 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

But those earlier languages were uniform (nearly) across the world at the time.

English is just a single example of the local vernacular in effect now. Very different from the clarity and immutability of the common languages and very subject to nuance and abuse.

The reason I left the New Mass was because of the handshake (hug; grope) of Peace. An even worse reason to leave, probably. But later I found there were some perfectly good reasons to take shelter in the Tridentine Mass.

I would elucidate but you already know them and I have to leave for Latin Mass in 15 minutes.


26 posted on 09/02/2012 3:02:00 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: OldNavyVet

“It’s said that as one gets older, one gets wiser. That doesn’t apply to “infallible” institutions.”

~ ~ ~

“infallible”...

God wouldn’t leave us wondering or every one making up their
own version of His plan. There is an authority we can
turn to, the Holy Father.

Roman Catholicism is more than an “institution”, it is the one and only true faith. God gave her the gift to be correct on faith and morals. She is, history shows it.

Example, when Christians and non-Christians even Catholic
Bishops rejected Pope Paul VI because he would not change and ACCEPT contraception. He predicted the fruit of
contraception and it’s all come true. Contraception has almost destroyed the family, morals, brought about legalization of killing your own children, the murder of an innocent babe in it’s mother’s womb.

My heart says you will convert/revert when the Great Warning happens. Pray the entire world converts, non-Christians too.


27 posted on 09/02/2012 3:11:51 PM PDT by stpio
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"There's probably no God!"

Is that really your view of an agnostic's position?

Did you hear about the agnostic, dyslexic insomniac? The poor guy stayed awake all night wondering if there really IS a dog.

28 posted on 09/02/2012 3:27:52 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: caldera599

**church failing to move with the times.**

What is so important about the current/modern times?

The Catholic Church is formed on the one and only Song of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

I’m happy with that — and I bet a lot of Catholics are happy with that.

BTW, The Catholic Church moves even more slowly that governments. Glory Be!


29 posted on 09/02/2012 3:54:17 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: steve86
Oh, I love the Latin Mass too, and would be an attendee if there were one less than 100 miles from me. Nor am I unaware of the benefits of having educated people speaking and writing the same language from, oh, Oslo to Cadiz to Prague.

But English, while a local vernacular, is local on 3 continents --- the British Isles, Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, and many ex-British-Empire places --- and the best and most widespread "second" language almost everywhere, on all 6 inhabited continents. That has its advantages, too.

I am by no means a philologist, but I don't think that any language that's in use is ever immutable. Just look at the difference between Classical Greek, Koine Greek, Modern Greek.

Used to be, Greek was the language of drama, poetry, philosophy, theology, mathematics and the sciences -- high civilization --- while Latin was the language of cops, soldiers, construction workers, publicans and petty bureaucrats. That's one connotation of Jerome's Latin version being "Vulgate" --- common --- and the Greeks thought it was a damned shame.

'Course, before them, the rabbis of Yavne thought Greek was a damned shame!

30 posted on 09/02/2012 3:56:43 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("You can observe a lot just by watchin'." - Yogi Berra)
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To: Salvation

Oops

The Catholic Church is formed on the one and only Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.


31 posted on 09/02/2012 4:00:58 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: gorush
Ha! Good one! (And I didn't mean to insult ya --- I was just tickling your ribs, really.)

On the recently-departed Cardinal M. we had been talking about, God rest his soul --- I had read one of his lines too quickly, and thought he'd said "the vestments we wear are pom-poms."

.

(Martini with pom-pom.)

32 posted on 09/02/2012 4:01:47 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("You can observe a lot just by watchin'." - Yogi Berra)
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To: paterfamilias

I rejoined a traditional Latin Mass community in Jnauary, and haven’t looked back. The TLM is growing by leaps and bounds, and when we have a sung (Gregorian Chant Missa Solemnis) Mass, there are 10 altar boys an a church packed with families with young children.


My mother would not walk out of there. She would just camp out until next Sunday. After that, we’d have to drag her home.


33 posted on 09/02/2012 4:02:52 PM PDT by 98ZJ USMC
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To: caldera599
Martini, famous for comments that the use of condoms could be acceptable in some cases, told interviewers the Church should open up to new kinds of families or risk losing its flock...Martini was much loved and thousands paid their respects at his coffin in Milan cathedral on Saturday...

Disclaimer: When God kicked Adam and Eve from the Garden, he could have been merciless. He wasn't he said they could take the Juniper tree with them. Hence, we can still have gin. Life rarely gets better than a classic dry martini made with but a dash of olive juice and three queen olives.

This guy would have made a horrible Pope. Let those who loved him revel in the memory. May he rest in peace.

34 posted on 09/02/2012 4:05:32 PM PDT by stevem
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To: caldera599
like the Protestant churches, which are now decaying?

lol...whatever you say, dude. I bow to your superior knowledge, obviously.

35 posted on 09/02/2012 4:18:55 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: gorush
>> after 2000 years, they changed from Latin to English. That’s when they lost me...I’m now a card carrying agnostic. <<

You would have been a "card carrying agnostic" during the early centuries of Christianity too then, since the Mass was in GREEK in those days, not Latin. Most of the Catholic liturgical words come from Greek, including the word "Catholic" itself (from the Greek "katholikos", meaning "universal") The Latin Mass didn't start until the fourth century A.D., and even then it was only commonplace in the western churches. Certainly Jesus and the apostles knew nothing of Latin.

36 posted on 09/02/2012 4:29:46 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: BillyBoy

Once again...it’s a joke...yet I can still recite the “sucipiot” after all these years.


37 posted on 09/02/2012 4:32:25 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: gorush
I've met a lot of traditionalist "Latin language Tridentine Mass is the ONLY valid type of liturgy" Catholics online. These folks are as bad the "King James version of the Bible is the ONLY acceptable Bible translation" folks in protestant camps. What they both have in common in the thing they're proclaiming as THE only acceptable form didn't even exist until the late 1600s.

There's been a wide variety of bible translations and liturgies developed over the 2000 year history of Christianity and they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Some of the holiest figures in church history had nothing to do with latin litugries, including the apostles themeselves. The sooner Christians stop this "my the way or the highway" attitude, the better.

38 posted on 09/02/2012 4:40:19 PM PDT by BillyBoy ( Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: BillyBoy

As an agnostic I can hardly be referred to as a “traditionalist” what ever that means...although i can certainly guess. I’m an ex-catholic history buff who cannot afford the indulgence’s necessary for the Vatican to smooth my path to a guaranteed eternal salvation. I’ll have to try to get there on my own.


39 posted on 09/02/2012 4:47:54 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: BillyBoy

As an agnostic I can hardly be referred to as a “traditionalist” what ever that means...although i can certainly guess. I’m an ex-catholic history buff who cannot afford the indulgence’s necessary for the Vatican to smooth my path to a guaranteed eternal salvation. I’ll have to try to get there on my own...but that’s how I roll, so there’s hope.


40 posted on 09/02/2012 4:48:28 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
But English, while a local vernacular, is local on 3 continents --- the British Isles, Canada, USA, Australia, NZ, and many ex-British-Empire places --- and the best and most widespread "second" language almost everywhere, on all 6 inhabited continents. That has its advantages, too.

Would seem the common language of the World is becoming/has become English...Would it not be naive to think that God does not have a hand in this???

Perhaps the Catholic religion should just let go of the old, dead Latin just as it one time let go of the old, dead Greek...

41 posted on 09/02/2012 6:13:29 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Salvation
The Catholic Church is formed on the one and only Son of God, Jesus Christ, our Lord.

So the Catholic religion claims...However when one reads and believes the entirety of the scriptures, one is clearly led away from the Catholic religion...

42 posted on 09/02/2012 6:18:19 PM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: Beowulf9

The churches began to empty in Europe as many clerics abandoned their faith for the tenants of the Enlightenment. That led in France to the French revolution sought to destroy Christianity. In the 19th Century, we have the replacement of religion by ideology and the worship of the state. In the 20th Century were see the state raised to supreme power and the material devastation of the world. After Vatican II, the Progressives gain control and change everything. The disaster is owing to the life-work of men like this Cardinal. Like Onama, he sees a devastated landscape and refuses to understand that it is he who has done this.


43 posted on 09/02/2012 7:06:40 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: gorush

One thing is sure, that is like saying: I don’t need a boat, I’ll just swim across the Amazon.


44 posted on 09/02/2012 7:09:18 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: Iscool

Only if “one” agrees with your premises.


45 posted on 09/02/2012 7:10:41 PM PDT by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: OldNavyVet

It certainly doesn’t apply to obtuse freepers.


46 posted on 09/02/2012 7:11:57 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: Alberta's Child
I don’t think Latin was an “official” Church language until (maybe) the 7th or 8th Century.

You obviously don't know the history behind Pope Damasus I in 382 commissioning St. Jerome to produce The Vulgate which updated the Vetus Latina. Latin was the official language of the Church in the first century, several hundred years before you "think" it was.

47 posted on 09/02/2012 7:29:20 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: BillyBoy
Certainly Jesus and the apostles knew nothing of Latin.

So you think that Pilate was conversant in Aramaic even though the Romans spoke Latin?

Next time you comment on that which you know not don't forget to include the caveat "in my unlearned opinion."

"And there was also a superscription written over him in letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew: THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS." Luke 23:38

"This title therefore many of the Jews did read: because the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, in Greek, and in Latin." John 19:20

"A king, the angel of the bottomless pit; whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek Apollyon; in Latin Exterminans," Apocalypse 9:11

48 posted on 09/02/2012 7:44:11 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I was under the impression that the earliest roots of the Latin Mass as we know it date back to the reforms of the Roman Missal under Pope St. Gregory the Great.


49 posted on 09/02/2012 7:48:42 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Though it would make sense for Latin to be the “official” language of the Church so far back, considering the early spread of the faith through the Roman Empire.


50 posted on 09/02/2012 7:51:03 PM PDT by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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