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Use Labor Day to remember Catholic social doctrine, priest says
Catholic News Agency ^ | September 3, 2012 | Kevin J. Jones

Posted on 09/03/2012 7:41:32 AM PDT by Alex Murphy

Port Arthur, Texas, Sep 3, 2012 / 06:32 am (CNA/EWTN News).- A Catholic priest involved in labor advocacy says that Labor Day is a time to reflect on Catholic teaching about the role of work in society and in God’s plan for mankind.

“Labor Day is just really an opportunity to focus not on the secular world, but on what our Church teaches,” Father Sinclair Oubre, spiritual moderator of the Catholic Labor Network, told CNA Aug. 30.

Fr. Oubre is pastor of St. John the Evangelist Parish in Port Arthur, Texas, in addition to his duties with the Catholic Labor Network. He said his network aims to “re-establish the wonderful tradition” of Catholic social teaching on labor, the dignity of workers, and their right to organize a union.

“The roots of Labor Day are Catholic,” he said. While the origins of the annual September holiday are disputed, the priest credits 19th-century Catholic labor activist Peter J. McGuire with founding the holiday.

Fr. Oubre said Catholic teaching has a positive view of work. Catholics should remember that they are “co-creators in God’s ongoing creation” and are called to “build up the kingdom of God” in their daily labor.

This means that those who are in positions of responsibility, like management or ownership, have “a moral responsibility to work for justice.” They should “recognize that their workers and employees are not simply another means in the production process.”

Workers, for their part, should “reflect deeply” upon their own responsibilities.

“Whether it’s working for an insurance company processing claims or working at a General Motors plant up in Michigan, they are participating in a common effort,” Fr. Oubre said.

“They owe both God and their employer a full day’s work for a full day’s wages. They are really called to work as best they can because they are participating, while they work, in God’s ongoing creation.”

He encouraged those without work to “remain hopeful” and to look to their religious or parish community as “a source of support.”

In his small, predominantly black Texas parish, the priest reported, the most pressing concern is not unemployment but underemployment.

“Either people are being forced to work part-time to avoid losing benefits that go to take care of health care and retirement, or they are having to work multiple jobs because the wages they are receiving are so low that they and their family cannot live on it,” he said.

He said Catholics should search their souls and “not get caught up in the rhetoric of the secular world saying that the market will take care of it.” The sole reliance on the market has been rejected by papal teaching, he noted.

Fr. Oubre also finds some common views of the unemployed are “troubling.” People sometimes assume that those who can’t care for themselves are “obviously just lazy.”

“I think it’s scary in the rhetoric I hear around me, as we focus so much on Ayn Rand and ‘Atlas Shrugged,’” he said, referring to the 20th century novelist who advocated radical individualism and capitalism.

The priest is wary of the mentality that says, “I’ll take care of myself and pull myself up by my own bootstraps.” He stressed that people are “social creatures” and need to care for those who are born with health problems or who suffer crippling accidents.

“I’m speaking of family members whose children are born with spina bifida and have to try to raise their child and meet their health care needs. I’m thinking of the worker who’s driving to work and suddenly is caught up in an auto accident that’s not his fault and is paralyzed from the waist down,” he said.

“We talk about ‘I just take care of myself.’ There’s somethings that happen where people can’t take care of themselves.”

In order to know how to live in the modern economy, Fr. Oubre encouraged the study of Catholic social thought.

He said Pope Leo XIII’s 1891 encyclical “Rerum Novarum” rejected both socialism and “the brutal, brutal capitalism that was crushing and killing people” in the transition from agricultural to industrial society. The encyclical stressed that workers “could not justly enter into a contract that paid them a wage that did not give them at least a wage that they and their family could live upon.”

“He clearly condemned unregulated free marketism as well as socialism as being an insult to human dignity,” Fr. Oubre said.

Catholic social teaching on the place of labor has continued through various popes to Pope Benedict XVI’s 2009 encyclical “Caritas in Veritate.”

Fr. Oubre also recommended that Catholics read the U.S. bishops’ Labor Day statement.

He noted that Labor Day has traditionally marked an increase in political activity.

“It is absolutely imperative that Catholics be authentic to their Catholic social teaching, and not be ‘cafeteria Catholics’ of the left or the right. The real challenge is to conform ourselves to what our Church calls us to.”

“That means being pro-life, that means standing up for the dignity of marriage,” he said. “That also means fighting for the rights of our immigrant community and acknowledging the rights of workers to organize unions and participate in collective bargaining.”

“We have to try to live every aspect of Catholic social teaching,” he said.


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“The roots of Labor Day are Catholic,” he said. While the origins of the annual September holiday are disputed, the priest credits 19th-century Catholic labor activist Peter J. McGuire with founding the holiday....

....“I think it’s scary in the rhetoric I hear around me, as we focus so much on Ayn Rand and ‘Atlas Shrugged,’” he said, referring to the 20th century novelist who advocated radical individualism and capitalism. The priest is wary of the mentality that says, “I’ll take care of myself and pull myself up by my own bootstraps.” He stressed that people are “social creatures” and need to care for those who are born with health problems or who suffer crippling accidents....

....In order to know how to live in the modern economy, Fr. Oubre encouraged the study of Catholic social thought. He said Pope Leo XIII’s 1891 encyclical “Rerum Novarum” rejected both socialism and “the brutal, brutal capitalism that was crushing and killing people” in the transition from agricultural to industrial society. The encyclical stressed that workers “could not justly enter into a contract that paid them a wage that did not give them at least a wage that they and their family could live upon.” “He clearly condemned unregulated free marketism as well as socialism as being an insult to human dignity,” Fr. Oubre said.

Catholic social teaching on the place of labor has continued through various popes to Pope Benedict XVI’s 2009 encyclical “Caritas in Veritate.” Fr. Oubre also recommended that Catholics read the U.S. bishops’ Labor Day statement.

1 posted on 09/03/2012 7:41:34 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: All
Vatican to America: ‘Social Justice’ is About Relationships, Not Socialism
Peter Cardinal Turkson, President of the Vatican’s Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace, has a message for Catholics in America, particularly those involved in social justice ministry, that could put a damper on the political machinations of the Shadow Party.

The message? “Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.” This clarification may very well be the catalyst to set the Catholic Church in America back on course with authentic Catholic teaching on hot-button issues involving massive government entitlement programs and other forms of overreach. If nothing else, it will almost certainly jump-start the “social justice” debate among Catholics. Cardinal Turkson, you see, is scheduled to deliver the plenary address at the 2011 Catholic Social Ministry Gathering in February.
It would be useful if we just observed our sense of justice as our ability to fulfill the demands of the relationships in which we stand.

This is in contrast to socialism, he explained, which is an ideology in which private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies. What the Pope proposes in ‘Caritas in Veritate,’ said Cardinal Turkson, is ‘achieving the common good without sacrificing personal, private interests, aspirations and desires.’

Cardinal Turkson said the Council was also surprised that the Pope’s concept of the ‘gift,’ was perceived in some circles as encouraging government welfare handouts. In ‘Caritas in Veritate,’ Pope Benedict described the concept of “gift” as a way to understand God’s love for men and women in his gift of life and his gift of Jesus.
Whether he intended to or not, Cardinal Turkson has now echoed what many conservative Catholics in America have been calling for repeatedly — subsidiarity in economic policy. More importantly, the Cardinal observes the heart of the matter in noting that a ‘handout’ and a ‘gift’ are not at all the same, with the latter being more in keeping with the Gospel message.


2 posted on 09/03/2012 7:54:33 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: All
Catholic Anti-Communism
Communism was never popular in America, and no American group was more fervently anti-Communist than the Catholics. The American bishops, like the Vatican, had condemned Marxism before 1900 for its atheism, its violation of natural law principles, and its theory of inevitable class conflict. They condemned the Russian Revolution of 1917 that brought Lenin and the Bolsheviks to power. They condemned American Communism in the 1930s for its adherence to the Moscow party line, its frequent about-turns of policy, and its support of the anti-Catholic Republicans in the Spanish Civil War.

Even in the Second World War, when America and the Soviet Union were allies against Nazism, Catholics kept their distance. Archbishop Francis Beckman of Dubuque, for example, warned in 1942 that "the Christ-haters of Moscow and their international brethren… may well take note of the Church Militant when she becomes aroused." And even as victorious American and Soviet troops shook hands at the River Elbe in early 1945, Catholic Mind reminded its readers that although "during the war there has been much wishful thinking about the transformation of the Soviet system… the reality remains unchanged." It added that "the war has given the dictatorship a stronger, more penetrating grip on the country than it ever had before." But it was in the twenty years of the "high" Cold War era, 1945-1965, that Catholic anti-Communism reached its climax, affecting every Catholic at home, at school, at work, in politics, in church, and even in devotional life.

The "culture wars" of the 1970s and 1980s contributed to the fragmentation of American Catholic culture, which enjoyed little of the certitude that had held it together in the 1950s. Marxist Communism as an atheist ideology had lost virtually all its radiance by the mid 1970s though it began to show up in religious dress, much modified, in elements of liberation theology. Still, the old anti-Communist verities lived on in the mind of Pope John Paul II. Annealed to political-religious struggle in Cold War Poland, he recognized no essential change in the situation, however much his American flock might be experiencing second thoughts. The events of 1989 vindicated him, enabling Catholic anti-Communists everywhere to rejoice. Their own view of the world had prevailed while its greatest rival of the century had degenerated and then died.


3 posted on 09/03/2012 8:01:28 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
So many people misunderstand social justice. Paul Ryan puts it very well in this article: Two facets that people forget or don't know about:
subsidiarity -- letting the smallest government deal with you on a problem, for example, zoning for me would be the county and the city.
solidarity -- common sense. Ryan puts it better than I can.

Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Holiness (Paul Ryan)

So if people can support Ryan -- then they are supporting the REAL Catholic definition of social justice!

4 posted on 09/03/2012 8:11:40 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Cronos
**“Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.”**
 
Adding to that:
“Catholic social ministry begins and ends with Jesus Christ,” he said. “If it doesn’t, it isn’t Catholic.”

Archbishop Chaput

 

5 posted on 09/03/2012 8:15:19 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
bears repeating --> So if people can support Ryan -- then they are supporting the REAL Catholic definition of social justice!

As Ryan says

The work I do as a Catholic holding office conforms to the social doctrine as best I can make of it. What I have to say about the social doctrine of the Church is from the viewpoint of a Catholic in politics applying my understanding to the problems of the day.
Serious problems like those we face today require charitable conversation. Civil public dialogue goes to the heart of solidarity, the virtue that does not divide society into classes and groups but builds up the common good of all.
The overarching threat to our whole society today is the exploding federal debt. The Holy Father, Pope Benedict, has charged that governments, communities, and individuals running up high debt levels are “living at the expense of future generations” and “living in untruth.”
We in this country still have a window of time before a debt-fueled economic crisis becomes inevitable. We can still take control before our own needy suffer the fate of Greece. How we do this is a question for prudential judgment, about which people of good will can differ...
 Simply put, I do not believe that the preferential option for the poor means a preferential option for big government.
Look at the results of the government-centered approach to the war on poverty. One in six Americans are in poverty today– the highest rate in a generation. In this war on poverty, poverty is winning. We need a better approach.
To me, this approach should be based on the twin virtues of solidarity and subsidiarity–virtues that, when taken together, revitalize civil society instead of displacing it.
Government is one word for things we do together. But it is not the only word.  We are a nation that prides itself on looking out for one another– and government has an important role to play in that. But relying on distant government bureaucracies to lead this effort just hasn’t worked.
You can read the entire speech  here.  Here is a video

6 posted on 09/03/2012 8:16:22 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

Thanks for the repeat and the additional quote from Ryan’s speech.


7 posted on 09/03/2012 8:41:27 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation; Cronos

Thanks to both of you for your posts


8 posted on 09/03/2012 8:56:15 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: Cronos
And just who would administer this “Social Justice”? A coterie of Catholic priests at court whispering into the ears of whomever is in power?

No thank you, we've seen enough examples of that.

And who would define just what “Social Justice” is? The Vatican? Catholic bishops? Catholic congressmen like Robert Drinan?

Again, no thank you, “social justice” is just social injustice with a smile.

9 posted on 09/03/2012 8:56:58 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

Will you be voting for Paul Ryan’s views then? Maybe not?


10 posted on 09/03/2012 9:04:24 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Alex Murphy
.......“That also means fighting for the rights of our immigrant community and acknowledging the rights of workers to organize unions and participate in collective bargaining.”

Pretty much describes why we are in the mess we now find ourselves.

11 posted on 09/03/2012 9:16:01 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: Salvation

One thing we all should have learned about politicians of every stripe by now is that their expressed views before election are as meaningless as a promise of a good time written on a restroom wall.

Even the union shill priest in the article talked a good game.


12 posted on 09/03/2012 9:47:19 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Just mythoughts
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2925948/posts

Wonder why UNION leadership 99.9% of the time support lying liberals?

13 posted on 09/03/2012 10:03:00 AM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: Alex Murphy
“The roots of Labor Day are Catholic,” he said. While the origins of the annual September holiday are disputed, the priest (Oubre) credits 19th-century Catholic labor activist Peter J. McGuire with founding the holiday....”

McGuire also founded what was renamed the “Socialist Labor Party”. “Activist”? right.

14 posted on 09/03/2012 10:11:19 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Salvation

“Archbishop Chaput”

Love that guy. I wish he were head of the USCCB.


15 posted on 09/03/2012 2:05:55 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Just mythoughts

“our immigrant community”

Is that a euphemism for “hordes of illegal-alien border crashers?”


16 posted on 09/03/2012 2:10:34 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: count-your-change

“And who would define just what “Social Justice” is?”

The concept of “social justice” is of and from Satan.

Christians are called to charity, mercy, and love. The minute you term the acts that should arise from these virtues a matter of “justice,” you have given the government a license to send men with guns to enforce them.

As with all leftist evil, “social justice” substitutes the power of the state for our God-given free will. Where God says He wants us to be loving, merciful, and charitable, but leaves us the free will to be otherwise, “social justice” is the state saying, “Screw free will. You will *act* as we think you should, or men with guns will come and arrest, fine, or kill you.”

As Shakespeare tells us, “The quality of mercy (and charity, and love)...is twice blessed. It blesseth him that gives, and him that takes.”

Government-enforced redistribution of resources in the name of “social justice” is twice damned: It robs the free will of him that gives, and degrades him that takes.

Shakespeare also notes that, “...in the course of justice, none of us should see salvation. We do pray for mercy, and that same prayer doth teach us all to render the deeds of mercy.”

There is God’s will at work: people learning to be merciful for its own sake, and not because some leftist has a gun pointed at their heads.

And what does “social justice” teach us? From the POV of the taxed, “Men with guns take my hard-earned wages and give it to strangers, leaving me no choice in where and whether to perform deeds of charity.” From the POV of the taker, “They are so reluctant to help me that men with guns have to make them do it. How deep their contempt for me must be.”

As with so many of Satan’s programs, “social justice” appears to be noble, but is in fact deeply evil and destructive.

Where you find charity, mercy, and love, there also is Our Lord.

Where you find “social justice,” there also is Satan.


17 posted on 09/03/2012 2:13:55 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc

Social Justice is Socialist Justice.


18 posted on 09/03/2012 2:15:48 PM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: Alex Murphy

Seems your thread has led to a sudden downpour of verbiage in defense of “social justice” on FR. How odd. Wonder why that might be?

Has some Vatican functionary stepped in it again, or does some Republican politician have something to overcome with conservatives in this regard?


19 posted on 09/03/2012 2:32:29 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: dsc
I think you're conflating social justice with socialism. They aren't the same.

"Love God with your whole heart, mind, and soul" and "Love your neighbor as yourself" are how Jesus summarized the Commandments. Economic activity and relationships are no more exempt from that than any other aspect of human existence, pace Ayn Rand.

(I would hope that no thinking Christian looks to Rand for any sort of guidance. Rand may be the diametrical opposite of Marx, but the opposite of an error is usually another error.)

20 posted on 09/03/2012 2:48:26 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion

“I think you’re conflating social justice with socialism.”

Please have another look at my longer note. Social justice *is* socialism. It cannot be otherwise.


21 posted on 09/03/2012 3:14:31 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: RegulatorCountry
Seems your thread has led to a sudden downpour of verbiage in defense of “social justice” on FR. How odd. Wonder why that might be?

Simply put, it's because not everyone subscribes to the same type of "conservatism" as Free Republic does. I'm glad for the support that we do get in these areas:

That said, there are other areas promoted by Free Republic, where Catholic support suffers, IMO due to a conflict with "Catholic Social Teaching" aka Social Justice:
22 posted on 09/03/2012 8:07:31 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy

I don’t think you’re distinguishing between cafeteria Catholics—empty-eyed, loopy-smiled libtards—and what one might call Free Republic Catholics, who have no problem with any of the things you listed.


23 posted on 09/03/2012 11:31:23 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc
Is that a euphemism for “hordes of illegal-alien border crashers?”

I have considered your question since I read it earlier. America has reached a tipping point of almost no return under this twisted curse called 'social justice'. Even our founding fathers specifically stated that government could not establish any religion. This writing basically flips that international sign to what it was the made America the superpower of superpowers.

Personally I resent that a 'church' can require me to fund their socialism.

24 posted on 09/03/2012 11:50:39 PM PDT by Just mythoughts (Please help Todd Akin defeat Claire and the GOP-e send money!!!!!)
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To: count-your-change

Who administers the social justice among your Jehovah’s Witnesses?


25 posted on 09/04/2012 12:36:15 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: dsc; dfwgator
The term "social justice" is badly abused. As the Cardinal clarified (see my post 2 above): “Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.”.....This is in contrast to socialism, he explained, which is an ideology in which private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies.

And, as Ryan has confirmed: Government is one word for things we do together. But it is not the only word. We are a nation that prides itself on looking out for one another– and government has an important role to play in that. But relying on distant government bureaucracies to lead this effort just hasn’t worked.

It could have a better translation into English, but it is as you said, a call to charity, mercy, and love.

26 posted on 09/04/2012 12:40:18 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Alex Murphy

As stated —> Calvin’s famous soberness has its roots in his effort for social justice!


27 posted on 09/04/2012 12:57:28 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Alex Murphy
As stated --> Calvin's famous soberness has its roots in his effort for social justice!

Calvin considered it unthinkable that a rich man would keep on enriching himself while witnessing poverty around him. In his view, the rich man had, according to the Bible, the duty to help the poor and certainly the refugees in his vicinity. It is for this reason that Calvin in his sermons sometimes ranted relentlessly against frivolity and decadence because the money spent on such things would be better spent on the poor. So Calvin’s famous soberness has its roots in his effort for social justice! from the dutch christians portal

28 posted on 09/04/2012 12:58:47 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

You left out environmental justice, economic justice and all those other justices that turn out to be just another injustice.


29 posted on 09/04/2012 2:11:57 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
You left out environmental justice, economic justice and all those other justices that turn out to be just another injustice

Whatever they may be, that's a separate issue. Or are you against legal justice as well?

Social justice is clearly NOT socialism and is against big government -- a society does not necessarily have to be defined as "government doing everything" - in fast that does not work, as the Vatican has stated -- better for "society" as in individuals to remember their Christian duties, believing in Christ as the Son of God and work as a society, not relying on govt to do everything.

30 posted on 09/04/2012 2:25:25 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
I'm glad you brought up “legal justice” since as a process and not an outcome it is so often far distant from any normal human’s concept of actual justice.

In the legal system no degree of innocence can prevent the accused person from being financially ruined even if they receive “legal justice”.

“Social justice is clearly NOT socialism and is against big government”

It never starts out as socialism and overweening government but it must end that way as the advocates for “social justice” turn to the state to be the enforcer of their vision of justice.

Thus “social justice” sounds especially good to the ‘labor advocate’ who asks for nothing more than the right of workers to organize and ends up closing the workers place of employment.
And what about the guy that didn't want to be “organized”? Well, he's out of a job too and wonders how that's justice.

You want to go on to “social justice” for illegal aliens?

31 posted on 09/04/2012 3:46:08 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

So, you are against justice for murder victims or rape victims? Really?


32 posted on 09/04/2012 4:20:54 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: count-your-change
but it must end that way

Not really, to say it must is incorrect.

You want to go on to “social justice” for illegal aliens? -- nope, but I want to get justice for those who were killed by the Islamists. Are you against justice for that?

33 posted on 09/04/2012 4:22:07 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: dsc
I don’t think you’re distinguishing between cafeteria Catholics—empty-eyed, loopy-smiled libtards—and what one might call Free Republic Catholics, who have no problem with any of the things you listed.

Oh, but I wasn't speaking of the cafeteria-dwellers. You might be surprised what some of the hard-core Free Republic Catholics believe, politically. You might be even more surprised what their bishops - the ones hard-core Free Republic Catholics say are the most conservative - believe, politically.

34 posted on 09/04/2012 6:18:03 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: Alex Murphy
Yes, like Calvin, the person who started all his social justice, railing against the rich right

Calvin considered it unthinkable that a rich man would keep on enriching himself while witnessing poverty around him. In his view, the rich man had, according to the Bible, the duty to help the poor and certainly the refugees in his vicinity. It is for this reason that Calvin in his sermons sometimes ranted relentlessly against frivolity and decadence because the money spent on such things would be better spent on the poor. So Calvin’s famous soberness has its roots in his effort for social justice

35 posted on 09/04/2012 6:22:03 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
“Must” is entirely the correct term. What is touted as “social justice” is Marx's theory on the value of labor.

“Must” because Catholic social doctrine cannot be satisfied with Catholics alone practicing the ideologies of social and economic justice but this Owellian notion absolutely requires the power of the State to enforce it.

As John Paul II said:
“...society and the State must ensure wage levels adequate for the maintenance of the worker and his family, including a certain amount for savings. This requires a continuous effort to improve workers’ training and capability so that their work will be more skilled and productive, as well as careful controls and adequate legislative measures to block shameful forms of exploitation, especially to the disadvantage of the most vulnerable workers, of immigrants and of those on the margins of society. The role of trade unions in negotiating minimum salaries and working conditions is decisive in this area (Centesimus Annus, no. 15).”

Islamists? What?

“You want to go on to “social justice” for illegal aliens? — nope, but I want to get justice for those who were killed by the Islamists. Are you against justice for that?”

Have you quit beating your wife? Of course, any practical examination of the fraud called “social justice” is off limits and to be ignored with silly questions like that above or something about rape victims.

Any examination of the socialist political platform called “social justice” reveals it to be just the old State coercion behind a certain mask of religiosity.

36 posted on 09/04/2012 7:20:21 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Alex Murphy

“You might be surprised what some of the hard-core Free Republic Catholics believe, politically.”

I don’t think so.

There is a common practice here of telling Catholics what they believe instead of listening to Catholics telling what they believe.


37 posted on 09/04/2012 12:17:44 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: Cronos

Arguments to the effect that:

“Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.”.....This is in contrast to socialism, he explained, which is an ideology in which private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies...”

...are entirely without merit.

The phrase “social justice” was a commie buzzword before the Church started using it. It was engrafted onto Catholic thought specifically to create confusion. Here’s how it goes, step by step:

1. Tell people that Catholic social justice is different from commie social justice.

2. One by one, gradually incorporate elements from commie social justice into so-called Catholic social justice.

3. Argue that since Catholic social justice is in agreement with these elements of communism, communism is Catholic.

4. Die and burn in Hell.

It is a fact—a stone cold fact—that the moment the concept of “justice” is introduced, “private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies.” Always have been, always will be.

The Church must jettison this Satanic trojan horse and return to terminology and theology that predates communism.


38 posted on 09/04/2012 12:35:23 PM PDT by dsc (Any attempt to move a government to the left is a crime against humanity.)
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To: dsc
There is a common practice here of telling Catholics what they believe instead of listening to Catholics telling what they believe.

It all depends on what we mean by "Catholic". Do we mean a group of politically conservative laypeople who happen to attend church together? A united group of bishops? Catholic tradition? The Magisterium? Who here purports to speak for the moniker "Catholic"?

All I can offer is quotes from their bishops on the subject of universal healthcare, illegal immigrant amnesty, expansion of federal and union powers, entitlement programs, etc., since "where the bishop is, there is the Catholic Church" or something like that. It's up to FR's Roman Catholics to speak for themselves, as to whether they believe likewise. The sad part is, most of them (at least those active in the Religion Forum) publicly offer up those same bishops as political conservatives.

I'll give credit where credit is due. Will the Catholics give debit where debit is due?

39 posted on 09/04/2012 12:42:09 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: dsc
Arguments to the effect that:
“Social justice” is about “relationships,” not “socialism.”.....This is in contrast to socialism, he explained, which is an ideology in which private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies...”
...are entirely without merit.

The phrase “social justice” was a commie buzzword before the Church started using it. It was engrafted onto Catholic thought specifically to create confusion. Here’s how it goes, step by step:

1. Tell people that Catholic social justice is different from commie social justice.
2. One by one, gradually incorporate elements from commie social justice into so-called Catholic social justice.
3. Argue that since Catholic social justice is in agreement with these elements of communism, communism is Catholic.
4. Die and burn in Hell.

It is a fact—a stone cold fact—that the moment the concept of “justice” is introduced, “private property and private interests are totally placed in the service of government policies.” Always have been, always will be.

The Church must jettison this Satanic trojan horse and return to terminology and theology that predates communism.

FWIW, your entire post was seriously awesome, especially that paragraph about "justice". I wouldn't argue with a single word of it.

40 posted on 09/04/2012 1:15:54 PM PDT by Alex Murphy
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To: dsc
return to terminology and theology that predates communism.

On that I agree.

41 posted on 09/04/2012 11:35:08 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: dsc
return to terminology and theology that predates communism.

On that I agree but note that the origin of the term is clerical from the early 1800s and THAT predates communism. However, it has been usurped by communism and twisted around, just like the word "gay" in other circumstances

42 posted on 09/04/2012 11:35:58 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: count-your-change
you just said you were against any terminology using the word justice, economic justic, legal justice, justice for rape victims etc.

If you want a better term, fair enough. It can be termed as imitating Christ in looking after one's brethren. It most definitely should NOT be in govt's purview.

43 posted on 09/05/2012 1:18:44 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
What I did say is that what is labeled “justice” of one sort or another usually turns into injustice.

My quote from John Paul II plainly shows what Catholic “social doctrine” involves....using the power of the state to force upon the citizenry what they might reject on their own.

It's all fine and well for him to tout the socialist line about the right of association (labor unions) but what of others right of non association, those who do not wish to be forced to join a union or lose their job? Where is the justice in Catholic social doctrine for them?

Immigrants (illegal aliens) rights are held up as part of Catholic social doctrine on justice but again their supposed right to come across the border at will produces great injustice.

I go to the hospital emergency room and it costs me $2000 even with my insurance and the hospital frankly admits I'm subsidizing those who cannot and will not pay anything.
“We don't send bills to Mexico”.

“If you want a better term, fair enough. It can be termed as imitating Christ in looking after one’s brethren”....and that I do voluntarily not with the State's gun to my head as Catholic “social doctrine” calls for.

“Social justice” works very well for a few by producing injustice for others.

44 posted on 09/05/2012 2:03:46 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
Hardly -- firstly yours is a selective quote, now if I quote from some random statement by your Jehovah's Witness Watchtower, is that an official statement?

Secondly, this talks about society and your post has conveniently missed out what the rest of the post says namely . Rerum novarum is opposed to State control of the means of production, which would reduce every citizen to being a "cog" in the State machine.

45 posted on 09/05/2012 2:36:55 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
My quote was from Centesimus Annus, no. 15, an encyclical commemorating the hundred year anniversary of Rerum novarum, 1891.

“Rerum novarum is opposed to State control of the means of production, which would reduce every citizen to being a “cog” in the State machine.”

But behind that statement are calls for that very thing.

By what right does the State decide that the labor of a kid flipping burgers is worth over $10 an hour? Or that I should be forced to join and pay an organization against my will to have a job?

Read the Centesimus Annus and see that is the sort of State control being called for whether it be labeled “social or distributivity justice”.

You say my quote was “selective” and indeed it must be unless I'm going to display several pages of small type. Being selective it is no less accurate and is in no case a “random” statement.

What could be more “official” than John Paul II’s letter?

The simple fact of the matter is as shown by numerous examples is the “social justice” is just the vision of justice by the socialists and ends up as the injustice of the State setting wages, who can work where and demands that I join organizations with persons I don't wish to.

Quite frankly, I think the Catholic “social doctrine” betrays a profound ignorance of the Gospel message about private property, wages, employee/employer relationships, and indeed, justice itself.

46 posted on 09/05/2012 4:29:13 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: Alex Murphy; Cronos
Since much of Catholic social teaching involves workers and their wages I thought a small portion of an article from Crisis Magazine might highlight the practical problems of actually putting such social teaching into effect without the power of state to enforce it.

“May 27, 2009
The Minimum Wage and Catholic Social Teaching
by Fr. Rob Johansen

The Family Wage

Since Rerum Novarum, the Church has fervently held that the basis of determining a just wage should be the concept of the “family wage.” The family wage is one sufficient for a working man to support himself, his wife, and his children. While the Church acknowledges that all members of the family have a contribution to make to the well-being of the family, she nonetheless insists that the norm of stable family life is founded upon there being one principal breadwinner for the family, the father; as Pius XI wrote: “Every effort must therefore be made that fathers of families receive a wage large enough to meet ordinary family needs adequately” (QA 71). John Paul II also advocated the family wage, seeing it as a protection against treating human beings themselves as a commodity, to be evaluated solely on the basis of their productive potential.”

But as is clear in the article no one can or is even willing to try to define exactly what constitutes “a wage large enough to meet ordinary family needs adequately” or what these ordinary family needs are or at what level they should be provided.

My ordinary family need of a computer for business and entertainment and record keeping may not be the need of my neighbors family so shall we be paid differing amounts for the same work? Just who is going to make this decision? Our employer? Me? Some government entity? A theologian?

Catholic social teaching ephasizes the right to form labor unions but labor unions have fought two tier wage scales of all kinds and I can imagine how a union contract paying a family head much more than a single person would be regarded.

The article is interesting for it's discussion of practical questions but really supplies no really useful answers, as expected, and we're left with either voluntary agreements between individuals wherein both parties come out ahead or government mandate favoring one class of persons over another and everyone losing.

Catholic “social doctrine” is at its heart political clap-trap, a trait it shares with the so-called “social gospel” of some Protestants.

47 posted on 09/05/2012 9:47:53 AM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change; Alex Murphy

And so is your Jehovah’s Witnesses, cyc — tied in to communism. And for that matter, Calvin’s preaching was for social justice as indicated above.


48 posted on 09/05/2012 12:27:02 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

Saying “So’s yer mama!” doesn’t quite cut it. I really expected better.

Cheers!


49 posted on 09/05/2012 1:07:05 PM PDT by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change
it;s the same when the shoe is on the other foot. If one talks about Jehovahs Witnesses blood transfusion ban killing people, then your posts have been "your momma" etc. look in the mirror

What about the Jehovah's Witnesses links to communism?

50 posted on 09/05/2012 7:34:03 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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