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Dolan spoils the party (Why did Democrats allow the cardinal to give a right-wing prayer? )
Salon ^ | September 7, 2012 | SARAH POSNER

Posted on 09/08/2012 6:12:36 AM PDT by NYer

The Democrats still have a religion problem. No, not that religion problem. They just can’t seem to get past wanting the blessing of a larger-than-life religious figure — even when that figure has called their policies “un-American” and depicts their core beliefs as antithetical to our most cherished freedoms.

The circumstances leading up to Cardinal Timothy Dolan’s benediction last night were politically fraught, but they didn’t have to be. First, Mitt Romney announced Dolan would be giving the closing benediction at the Republican National Convention. (At the time, I wrote that the move signaled Dolan had chosen sides with the GOP. Nothing he said last night seemed to suggest otherwise.) Under fire from fellow Catholics and others, and in an effort to appear nonpartisan, Dolan offered to perform the same function in Charlotte. While some observers have argued that Dolan was backed into a corner and working from a position of weakness — he needed the Democrats to give him cover from the charges of partisanship — the Democrats looked like the ones in the position of weakness. They couldn’t, after all, say no.

Or could they have — or should they have? The problem with celebrity benedictions and invocations is that they are necessarily political, no matter how much both the host and guest protest that it’s really about honoring God, and not about politics. It’s a political convention! How can anything that happens at it not be political?

As Irin Carmon has detailed, Dolan took the opportunity to offer a prayer freighted with the hottest of the hot-button issues of the campaign — abortion, contraception and marriage equality, the latter two framed as infringements of religious liberty, what Dolan last night called “the first, most cherished freedom.”

In other words, Dolan wasn’t giving a final blessing on the proceedings, he was signaling to conservatives that he was there precisely to condemn them.

This, and in particular, Dolan’s prayer for protecting “those waiting to be born,” thrilled antiabortion activists. “This was a moment in history. So proud and inspired to witness #truthtopower,” tweeted Americans United for Life president Charmaine Yoest.

This all happened on the same day that Bishop Robert W. Finn of Kansas City was convicted of failing to report to authorities the Rev. Shawn Ratigan, who had a “pornography problem.” The conviction was the first of its kind in the ongoing church sex abuse scandal, with the case offering damning evidence that Finn failed to take any meaningful action to prevent Ratigan from taking lewd photographs of young girls on playgrounds and at church functions. Recently the New York Times reported that Dolan himself, while archbishop of Milwaukee, authorized payments to abusive priests so they would agree to be defrocked without a protracted internal church process. The report prompted the advocacy group Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests to protest, “In what other occupation, especially one working with families and operating schools and youth programs, is an employee given a cash bonus for raping and sexually assaulting children?”

Perhaps Democrats thought they looked tolerant, embracing of a big tent, to have Dolan there. After all, there are pro-life Democrats seeking a place within the party. Indeed, Sister Simone Campbell’s well-received speech drew wild applause when she proclaimed that her pro-life stance is about more than one issue. As she demonstrated so vividly, the Catholic Church and its many affiliated charitable organizations are well-known to many Americans for the essential social services they provide in their communities.

The Democrats’ conflict with Dolan is not just about the church’s opposition to abortion (a view Campbell shares, but doesn’t talk much about). On the matter they call religious freedom, the Bishops have, for more than a year, embarked on a carefully orchestrated campaign, staffed with lobbyists, bolstered by activists and cheered on by the Republican Party, to paint reproductive and LGBT rights as dire threats to the religious freedom of millions of Americans Catholics (and evangelicals). As the Bishops this summer called on Catholics to commemorate the martyrdom of St. Thomas More, whom Henry VIII beheaded over his loyalty to Rome, Father Paul Scalia (son of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia) more explicitly compared the contraception mandate to Henry VIII’s break with the Catholic Church and the bloody religious wars of Reformation England.

Before last night, the DNC had given a prominent role to women’s rights advocates, including Planned Parenthood president Cecile Richards, NARAL Pro-Choice America president Nancy Keenan and Sandra Fluke, the center of the Bishops’ storm over the contraception mandate. Although this point was not emphasized, Fluke, in particular, is a symbol of what happens when one religious group — one with a lot of money and a powerful Washington lobbying arm — tries to impose its religious views through policy. But that particular danger to religious freedom, religious pluralism and secular government was left unspoken at the convention, a serious shortcoming of the Democrats when it comes to talking about religion. Instead, Dolan was given a spot to advocate the opposite view.

Dolan was not speaking truth to power. Dolan is power. Sister Simone could not have given the benediction; nuns are considered laypeople and women are barred from ordination in the Catholic Church. American nuns are under Vatican investigation for promoting “radical feminist themes.”

The church, of course, is free to have these rules. That’s the real essence of religious freedom: The government won’t interfere with the church’s internal policies and governance. On matters that affect other citizens, though, religious freedom demands respecting the religious views of others as well: Many, many religious people, including many dissenting Catholics, believe their faith supports marriage equality, supports access to reproductive healthcare, supports equal roles for women and LGBT people within the faith. But by letting Dolan trounce on the convention’s full-throated celebration of equality for women and LGBT people, the Democrats bared their real religion problem: They still can’t seem to speak truth to power.



TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: cardinaldolan; democrats; gop; homosexualagenda; naturallaw; prolife; religiousliberty
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1 posted on 09/08/2012 6:12:42 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Right-wing prayer? Lol!


2 posted on 09/08/2012 6:13:34 AM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: NYer

Oh wow! THAT was my immediate reaction too:

...a right-wing prayer????????

____________________________

PS I was absolutely ASTOUNDED at how un-statesmanlike and ignorant...even INSANE this Democrat convention seemed.


3 posted on 09/08/2012 6:18:31 AM PDT by SumProVita
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To: NYer
The church, of course, is free to have these rules. That’s the real essence of religious freedom: The government won’t interfere with the church’s internal policies and governance...They still can’t seem to speak truth to power.

Nah, liberal politicians would never do anything like that. They would NEVER force Catholic institutions to provide contraception coverage in their insurance policies.

Oops, wait, they did just that. The Dems are not about speaking truth to power. They are about imposing their power on truth.

4 posted on 09/08/2012 6:18:37 AM PDT by dirtboy
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To: dirtboy

From the article:
“That’s the real essence of religious freedom: The government won’t interfere with the church’s internal policies and governance. On matters that affect other citizens, though, religious freedom demands respecting the religious views of others as well: Many, many religious people, including many dissenting Catholics, believe their faith supports marriage equality, supports access to reproductive healthcare, supports equal roles for women and LGBT people within the faith.”

In other words, you religious people are free to prattle on within the confines of your buildings’ walls, but don’t you dare try to live out those beliefs in any real way, because that interferes with our right to govern your lives.


5 posted on 09/08/2012 6:23:42 AM PDT by keats5 (Not all of us are hypnotized.)
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To: SumProVita
...a right-wing prayer????????

That must mean that God is a Republican. :)

6 posted on 09/08/2012 6:25:29 AM PDT by stars & stripes forever (Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord!)
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To: NYer

I don’t understand why they brought Dolan in, either. It made no sense.


7 posted on 09/08/2012 6:26:11 AM PDT by stevem
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To: NYer

What was he supposed to say? “Oh Lord,we ask you to bless and guide the hands of all abortionists”,I guess.


8 posted on 09/08/2012 6:28:59 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Voter ID Equals "No Representation Without Respiration")
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To: NYer

It’s not like anyone heard it. Unless they were watching Fox. And I don’t think those viewers had a problem with it.


9 posted on 09/08/2012 6:29:19 AM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Rome didn't fall in a day, either.)
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To: stevem

God Bless Cardinal Dolan. The truth needs to heard loud and clear and maybe he got through to some of these heretics.


10 posted on 09/08/2012 6:32:18 AM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: NYer

Hey Ms. Posner......ALL Prayer is Right Wing....there is what’s RIGHT, and then there’s what’s left.


11 posted on 09/08/2012 6:32:28 AM PDT by Ann Archy ( ABORTION...the HUMAN Sacrifice to the god of Convenience.)
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To: stevem
"It made no sense."

Especially after the NO vote, voiced quite loudly, to include God in their platform.

12 posted on 09/08/2012 6:32:53 AM PDT by radioone ( Main Stream Media. The Government built that.)
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To: NYer

It’s not that the democrats hate God, it’s just that they’d rather worship Government.


13 posted on 09/08/2012 6:33:21 AM PDT by MNnice
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To: NYer

My guess is The DemoRats are DESPERATELY out to prove that they aren’t as EXTREMIST as they TRULY are!It Blew UP In Their UGLY,HATEFUL FACES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


14 posted on 09/08/2012 6:36:42 AM PDT by bandleader
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To: SumProVita

The culture of death party loves death ... even if it has to be suicide.


15 posted on 09/08/2012 6:44:32 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: keats5
In other words, you religious people are free to prattle on within the confines of your buildings’ walls, but don’t you dare try to live out those beliefs in any real way, because that interferes with our right to govern your lives.

Yet ... liberals have no qualms about inflicting their beliefs on the general populace; for example, the HHS mandate. Sandra Fluke represented the liberal revulsion over the insistence that women, planning an abortion, be required to undergo an ultrasound test.

"An America in which states humiliate women by forcing us to endure invasive ultrasounds we don't want and our doctors say we don't need."

She is all about freedom of speech except for the speechless, unborn victim.

God bless Timothy Cardinal Dolan for stepping into the viper's lair and challenging their beliefs. And this is how the they responded:

Liberals cuss out Archbishop Timothy Cardinal Dolan (Caution: GRAPHIC CONTENT!)

16 posted on 09/08/2012 6:47:44 AM PDT by NYer (Without justice, what else is the State but a great band of robbers? - St. Augustine)
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To: Ann Archy
......ALL Prayer is Right Wing....there is what’s RIGHT, and then there’s what’s left

This has be added to the Freeper's Hall of Wisdom. Excellent statement, short, sweet and to the point. Should be made into a bumper sticker.

17 posted on 09/08/2012 6:49:15 AM PDT by Two-Bits (Failure to know history is sadly a way to repeat some of the most evil ever done.)
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To: Two-Bits
Hmmm .. it IS intrigueing ...


After the RIGHT is gone,

You have what's LEFT

RIGHTEOSNESS exalteth a nation


Looks like I have my next rear window sticker

Thanx Ann Archy

18 posted on 09/08/2012 7:01:10 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: SumProVita

The only thing missing was the cock crowing.


19 posted on 09/08/2012 7:05:19 AM PDT by ops33 (Senior Master Sergeant, USAF (Retired))
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To: bandleader
If you can stand the stench go to the DU and read the thread called "Do y'all really have any idea how devastating it is for LGBT Democrats to see Cardinal Dolan"

There are way over 240 remarks and almost 30 F words just on the reply title.

Yea he got their goat big time Hallelujah...LOL

20 posted on 09/08/2012 7:07:02 AM PDT by Johnny_cash
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To: maica

Did C-span show it?


21 posted on 09/08/2012 7:12:31 AM PDT by Freee-dame
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To: Tanniker Smith

My wife and I watched (on Fox, which we also don’t watch that much anymore either) and heard (with puke buckets standing by) to uncle obie and then Cardinal Dolan. Dolan was truly a gem in the pile of excrement left on stage by the clown-mander in chief. To see the on line reaction to Cardinal Dolan was disgusting to say the least. Of course we are talking the party of inclusiveness regardless of race, religion or opposing view points right? Didn’t think so. We for sure had no problem with the Cardinal putting it to these clowns who can’t even determine when you have a 2/3 voice vote. That was one of the most pitiful wool pulling scenes I’ve seen in a long time. And then the “no’s” still hung with them after being stabbed in the back. Fool them as many times as you like apparently.

Go Packers

Helping keep mankind warm for 65 years.


22 posted on 09/08/2012 7:16:08 AM PDT by rktman
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To: NYer
If what Dolan prayed was “right wing”... then GOD is right wing... because he spoke the words and commandments of GOD.

LLS

23 posted on 09/08/2012 7:19:47 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer ("if it looks like you are not gonna make it you gotta get mean, I mean plumb mad-dog mean" J. Wales)
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To: NYer; SumProVita; dirtboy; keats5
I think Dolan was way, way too subtle. This gal Sarah Posner didn't even pick up half of the stuff she ought to have been enraged about.

For instance: "Nature and nature's God" is a reference to Natural Law; "institutions You have given us for the nurturing of life" refers to marriage as instituted by Divine and Natural Law; but not 1% of the DNC listeners would have caught that. Posner apparently didn't.

If the gay activists had "caught" that, there would have been howling. Chairs flipped over. Wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Unfortunately, it was "dog-whistle" signal for the ears only of believers like us, NYer, and all the other Catholics who would fine-tooth-comb the text for "the good stuff".

24 posted on 09/08/2012 7:22:13 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us and on the whole world.)
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To: NYer

Author is an idiot:

“nuns are considered laypeople and women are barred from ordination in the Catholic Church.”

Nuns are Religious who have taken vows, and certainly are NOT “laypeople”.

“Many, many religious people, including many dissenting Catholics, believe their faith supports marriage equality, supports access to reproductive healthcare, supports equal roles for women and LGBT people within the faith.”

No they don’t believe their faith supports these things, they just pretend it doesn’t matter.

“the convention’s full-throated celebration of equality for women “
It was about killing babies, which has nothing to do with “equality”.


25 posted on 09/08/2012 7:23:53 AM PDT by G Larry (Progressives are Regressive because their objectives devolve to the lowest common denominator.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

;-)))

“Nature and nature’s God” is a reference to Natural Law;

_____________________

I caught that too. However, whether they heard it, understood it...or not, I believe God will answer that prayer.


26 posted on 09/08/2012 7:28:05 AM PDT by SumProVita
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To: SumProVita
I was absolutely ASTOUNDED at how un-statesmanlike and ignorant...even INSANE this Democrat convention seemed.

All of it was a desperate appeal to keep the various radical elements of their base together - meaning their internal polling must be showing huge problems. Even the late addition of Dolan was an attempt to keep Catholic Democrats. They didn't even pretend to appeal to traditional Americans, other than lumping them into some nebulous group called the "middle class" and insisting the Republicans were out to kill them.

Independents had to have been utterly repulsed - if they even bothered to watch.

27 posted on 09/08/2012 7:31:29 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves (CTRL-GALT-DELETE)
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To: Freee-dame

Yes, Cardinal Dolan’s prayer was shown on C Span.


28 posted on 09/08/2012 7:37:10 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: NYer

Miss Posner and her fellow travellers would consider John the Baptist a “right wing religious fanatic” for not supporting Herod Antipas’ “marriage equality” of incestuous adultery with his half-brother Phillip’s wife.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%206:14-29&version=NKJV


29 posted on 09/08/2012 7:37:43 AM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: NYer
This will be on the stage at the next 'Rat convention as their object of worship.


30 posted on 09/08/2012 7:42:48 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Another point missed by many, including the author..

Strengthen our sick and our elders waiting to see your holy face at life’s end, that they may be accompanied by true compassion and cherished with the dignity due those who are infirm and fragile.

Can you say "death panels"? Nice slam on Obamacare, Cardinal Dolan!

31 posted on 09/08/2012 7:44:00 AM PDT by cport (How can political capital be spent on a bunch of ingrates)
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To: NYer

My question would be, why would Dolan agree to go into that den of deviants in the first place? To me, that would be casting your pearls before the swine. Jesus, in the New Testament warned about that.


32 posted on 09/08/2012 7:44:24 AM PDT by sport
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To: NYer

‘Dolan was not speaking truth to power. Dolan is power.’

Uh, this is no state church in the U.S.. The RCC(or any other religion for that matter) does not have the power of the courts, the police and the military to enforce its rules on anyone.

‘Sister Simone could not have given the benediction; nuns are considered laypeople and women are barred from ordination in the Catholic Church. American nuns are under Vatican investigation for promoting “radical feminist themes.”’

Don’t like a church’s rules, don’t go. Women do not have a “right” to be ordained in the RCC just as I as a Protestant do not have a “right” to take communion in the RCC. Hence, I worship at a PCA congregation. These liberal women are free to attend the Episcopagan/Episcopal church USA instead. That’s how religious liberty and true freedom of religious choice works.


33 posted on 09/08/2012 7:48:14 AM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: Mrs. Don-o

“Let he who has ears hear.”


34 posted on 09/08/2012 7:53:25 AM PDT by Running On Empty (The three sorriest words: "It's too late")
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To: NYer

Good job Cardinal Dolan!


35 posted on 09/08/2012 7:59:42 AM PDT by Batman11 (We came for the chicken sandwiches and a Sweet Tea Party broke out!)
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To: SumProVita
...un-statesmanlike and ignorant...

Yep. Have you seen the YouTube video where the guy "polls" dem conventioneers on whether Obama should ban corporate profits?

While watching, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry...

Democrats: Let's Ban Profits!

36 posted on 09/08/2012 8:00:45 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: G Larry

“Author is an idiot:

“nuns are considered laypeople and women are barred from ordination in the Catholic Church.”

Nuns are Religious who have taken vows, and certainly are NOT “laypeople”.

“Many, many religious people, including many dissenting Catholics, believe their faith supports marriage equality, supports access to reproductive healthcare, supports equal roles for women and LGBT people within the faith.”

No they don’t believe their faith supports these things, they just pretend it doesn’t matter.

“the convention’s full-throated celebration of equality for women “
It was about killing babies, which has nothing to do with “equality”.”

My thoughts exactly. Ms. Posner certainly is an idiot.

BTW, I have been at more than a few functions in which a nun has given benediction. The difference is that it was not an apostate nun.


37 posted on 09/08/2012 8:13:09 AM PDT by paterfamilias
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To: jonno

Indeed. That video is both funny and sad all at once.


38 posted on 09/08/2012 8:15:03 AM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: NYer

Cardinal Dolan went into the den of the devil. What I saw in the last 3 days of “their” convention astounded me.

The brazeness of their excesses and demands to the intolerance and denial...such is what was on display for all America to see.

One can’t help but think about their convention in a religous context. A Biblical context and not have your very heart & soul ponder the evil that was on display. You might think what I am writing is over the top, but deep down you are just as bothered by it as I am. A lot of my conservative friends are more than distressed by the display they saw.

This is not the democrat party of even 4 years ago. For all our battling to ‘get our party back,’ one has to be amazed at where the Democrat party has gone.

This post might get pulled, but consider...

3 times the denial of God, (and none wept bitterly like Peter) for this sin.

The ‘war on women’ battlecry? The conversation here is not about denying women anything, it is about who is going to pay for HER CHOICES(Harlots and whores?).

Consider carefully some of the insights into who or what the Whore of Babylon is considered to be. I offer this version for consideration...keep in mind what the democrat convention discussed...Jeruseleum, God, and fornication...

When John introduces the Whore in Revelation 17, he tells us: “Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ‘Come, I will show you the judgment of the great harlot who is seated upon many waters, with whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and with the wine of whose fornication the dwellers on earth have become drunk.’ And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness, and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast which was full of b.asphemous names, and it had seven heads and ten horns. The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her fornication; and on her forehead was written a name of mystery: ‘Babylon the great, mother of harlots and of earth’s abominations.’ And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. When I saw her I marveled greatly” (Rev. 17:1–6).

This passage tells us several things about the Whore: (1) She is an international power, since she “sits on many waters,” representing different peoples (17:15), and she has committed fornication with “the kings of the earth,” and she has inflamed “the dwellers on earth” with her fornication. (2) She is connected with the seven-headed Beast from Revelation 13:1–10. That Beast was a major pagan empire, since its symbolism combined animal elements from four other major pagan empires (compare Rev. 13:1–2 with Dan. 7:1–8). (3) The Woman is connected with royalty, since she is dressed in the royal color purple. (4) The Woman is rich, for she is “bedecked with gold and jewels and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup.” (5) She has committed some kind of fornication, which in Scripture is often a symbol of false religion—lack of fidelity to the God who created heaven and earth. (6) She is symbolically known as Babylon. (7) She is a central cause of “abominations” in the land, abominations being a reference to practices, especially religious practices, that are offensive to God. And (8) she persecutes Christians “the saints and . . . martyrs of Jesus.”

While the rest of her description could refer to a number of things, the symbolic designation “Babylon” narrows it down to two: pagan Rome and apostate Jerusalem. It is well known that the early Church Fathers referred to pagan Rome as “Babylon”; however, there are also indications in Revelation that the Whore might be apostate Jerusalem. Historically, a number of commentators, both Protestant and Catholic, have adopted this interpretation.

Where did this come from? Oddly enough...
http://archive.catholic.com/library/Whore_of_Babylon.asp

And let’s talk about this thought...all the people ‘prepping’ to shelter/bug out etc. In Revelations it says that Christians, God’s people, will be called out of her to not share in her punishments. Are we really witnessing the preperations for God’s call?


39 posted on 09/08/2012 8:15:32 AM PDT by EBH (Courage, Trust, Sacred Honor, Truth, Freedom)
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To: EBH

apostate Jerusalem, what is that?

That is not the Jerusalem the Jesus re-establishes. The democrats deny Jerusalem...


40 posted on 09/08/2012 8:20:21 AM PDT by EBH (Courage, Trust, Sacred Honor, Truth, Freedom)
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To: sport
...why would Dolan agree to go into that den of deviants in the first place? To me, that would be casting your pearls before the swine. Jesus, in the New Testament warned about that.

I think it was symbolic in many ways. Highlighted their sins, rebuked them, called them to repent and like Pharaoh, hardened a few hearts. Pearls before swine and the dust from our feet.

41 posted on 09/08/2012 8:23:52 AM PDT by EBH (Courage, Trust, Sacred Honor, Truth, Freedom)
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To: All
The Democrats still have a religion problem. No, not that religion problem. They just can’t seem to get past wanting the blessing of a larger-than-life religious figure — even when that figure has called their policies “un-American” and depicts their core beliefs as antithetical to our most cherished freedoms.
"...Take your flocks and your herds, as you have said, and be gone, and bless me also!"
-- Pharoah, to Moses, in Exodus 12:32

42 posted on 09/08/2012 8:30:43 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (At the end of the day, you have to worship the god who can set you on fire.)
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To: EBH
3 times the denial of God...

First. I want to very careful not to "point out their speck while ignoring my plank".

However, I got a sense that this was more than just a floor vote at a convention. For me it was as if the camera could almost pan backward and bring into view the judgment seat of God.

Methinks the democrat party - and perhaps by extension, the USA - has finally sealed their (our???) doom by not implicitly denying God (condoning abortion, homosexuality, etc.), but in fact by EXPLICITLY - 3 times - denying his supremacy.

Perhaps Rev. Wright is finally correct. It may be "God DAMN America" - unless we repent...

43 posted on 09/08/2012 8:34:19 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: jonno
I am not so much pointing out their “speck,” as considering that this was no small event to have happen in a Biblical sense.

What they did, how they did it and Dolan....

We know, as Christians, this was no frivolous thing and neither was Dolan’s rebuke to the party.

44 posted on 09/08/2012 8:42:44 AM PDT by EBH (Courage, Trust, Sacred Honor, Truth, Freedom)
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To: EBH
Agreed

I am not so much pointing out their “speck,”

Sorry - I wasn't very clear. I didn't mean to imply that you were pointing out a speck, I was trying (unsuccessfully) to make the point that in the context of judgment, I am not without sin...

45 posted on 09/08/2012 8:56:59 AM PDT by jonno (Having an opinion is not the same as having the answer...)
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To: paterfamilias
The teminology is somewhat less than crystal clear.

Actually, nuns are not strictly clergy, in that they are not ordained and cannot perform any of the functions which are restricted to men in Holy Orders, e.g. hearing Confession, saying Mass, administering Confirmation or Anointing of the Sick. They are not deacons, priests, or bishops.

In that sense, they are laity.

Although ascetics, nuns, and unordained members of religious associations of men are not "clerics," as members of canonical congregations they are sometimes included under the title clergy in its wider sense as vowed religious.

This indicates that as people who have not received the sacrament of Holy Orders, they are still in a special way dependent under ecclesiastical authority.

46 posted on 09/08/2012 9:32:22 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Holy God, Holy Mighty, Holy Immortal, have mercy on us and on the whole world.)
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To: jonno

No need to apologize, just wanted to be sure on both our context.

In reference to judgement, I offer you this verse to consider:

Revelation 18:4 ...’And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.’


47 posted on 09/08/2012 9:34:43 AM PDT by EBH (Courage, Trust, Sacred Honor, Truth, Freedom)
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To: NYer

It was a great prayer. Called the dimocrats on the dime.


48 posted on 09/08/2012 10:05:47 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer

It’s called Death Insurance. They love being atheists, pretending they’re too smart to believe in God, trashing Christians, pushing God out of the national mind. But in the end, somewhere in the back of their tiny minds is a voice that says “yes, but what if?” Somewhere, they know the evil they are.

So they keep a priest or two on call for the end. Kind of like Ted Bloato Boozo Kennedy’s last letter to the Pope, the one with the fat check if His Holiness would just pull a few strings and get His Murderous Fatness past the pearly gates.


49 posted on 09/08/2012 10:23:16 AM PDT by DPMD
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Comment #50 Removed by Moderator


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