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German bishops get tough on Catholics who opt out of church tax
Reuters ^ | 9/21/2012 | Tom Heneghan

Posted on 09/24/2012 1:17:52 PM PDT by Dr. Thorne

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To: dfwgator
Piłsudski said "the Germans will destroy our bodies, the Russians will destroy our souls"

If I look at Poland's choices in 1939 -- no choice but death on either side. The death camps, the killing of 20% of their population was inevitable

121 posted on 09/26/2012 7:50:15 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lx

I believe that FDR was enamoured of Stalin and was a b*. Churchill saw the problem with the Russians controlling eastern europe, but had no pull


122 posted on 09/26/2012 7:51:08 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lx
Didn't Germany lose Gdansk via the Versailles treaty?

that was the treaty, but the fact was that Gdansk was a mixed ethnic city -- like much of Europe, there was never any fixed line

If we look at many cities, like say Lwow, it has been Russian, Polish, Austrian, Kievan Rus, etc. etc. at different times in it's history. Wroclaw was first Polish, then for a long time czech, then Austrian, then German and now Polish.

123 posted on 09/26/2012 7:54:42 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lx; dfwgator
the idea of poles as an inferior race is kind of strange since I see more blue-eyed blondes here (like my wife) than in Germany

There's a joke -- if you are walking west from Warsaw, how do you know when you have crossed into Germany? it's when the cows look prettier than the women :-P

Crude, but Polish women are gorgeous -- german, not really - i'd say below average.

124 posted on 09/26/2012 7:56:17 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

According to the Germans racial theories, most Poles had Germanic “warrior” blood in them from the mixing over the centuries, and therefore this made them potentially a threat to the “Thousand Year Reich” if they were not wiped out completely...basically “this town isn’t big enough for the two of us.” They figured that Czechs, Slovaks, Russians, etc. would be easier to rule over than the Poles.

There was documentation that suggested that Hitler planned to eliminate Poles as a race by the mid 70s, had the Nazis won the war.


125 posted on 09/26/2012 8:00:26 AM PDT by dfwgator (I'm voting for Ryan and that other guy.)
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To: dfwgator; Lx
I think this is more due to history than race. In terms of race, hitler was very inconsistent -- he was allies with the Croats and Bulgarians but hated Russians, Ruthenians and Poles and he put Aryan Roma (Gypsies) in concentration camps

Poles are more "Aryan"-looking than Germans. Though of course the "purest" Aryans are Iranis or northern Indians

In historical terms the Poles were the great rivals to Germans and Muscowites

The Czechs were the first slavs to gain entry to "civilisation" and this came from the west, the Germanics. the Kievan Rus got this from the Byzantines.

Poland was in between the two

The Bohemians got pulled into the Germanic orbit and right from Ottakar of Bohemia entered into the Holy Roman Empire -- this was part of the problem for the czechs and led to the Hussite rebellions in part (ethnic).

the Poles saw this and didn't go the same way, preferring to set up their own state. This was enhanced by the union with the Lithuanians

126 posted on 09/26/2012 10:11:03 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lx
And, note, I say Muscowites, not Russians. The Kievan Rus were destroyed by the Mongol invasions and their individual states were under Mongol rule.

The city state of Moscow which was initially set up by Vladimir-Suzdal took it's opportunity and became tax-collector for the Mongols.

They then absorbed the other states of the Kievan Rus and after the fall of Constantinople set themselves up with a divine mission -- to gather the various states of the Rus and then to gather all the Orthodox states into one Orthodox Empire

Unfortunately the Muscowites also took influences from the Mongols hence the autocracy

This then extended to taking over the Slavs

the problem is that the only slavs that stood in their way were the Poles.

127 posted on 09/26/2012 10:17:05 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
that was the treaty, but the fact was that Gdansk was a mixed ethnic city -- like much of Europe, there was never any fixed line

If I remember correctly, Danzig / Gdansk was something like 90% German speaking (95% using German numbers, 85% by Polish estimates, correct me if I'm wrong), so it was more of a political than a demographic decision to declare Gdansk / Danzig a "free city".

In any way, far less mixed ethnic than e.g. Miami or la Ciudad de los Angeles.
128 posted on 09/26/2012 11:49:04 AM PDT by wolf78 (Inflation is a form of taxation, too. Cranky Libertarian - equal opportunity offender.)
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To: wolf78
true, the city had been mostly Polish until the last partition in 1793

But the tradition of Danzig as a free city dates back to the Hanseatic league

129 posted on 09/26/2012 7:24:00 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: wideawake
Nice headline, sure to get the blood pumping. A few relevant facts: (1) In Germany, citizens have the option of either designating that 8% of their taxes go to a church, or of opting for that tax money to go directly to the state.

First of all, liberal German bishops adopted this system because they consider it more profitable to local clergy. This system is in fact destructive for the church. German clergy will be more and more dependent from the state.
What is more, Catholics are not the clients of the church and they have full rights to boycott such unCatholic solutions. Vatican court is on the side of the people on this issue anyway.
A pity that they cannot force German bishops to act like real Catholic shepards should act...
130 posted on 09/29/2012 3:14:08 PM PDT by Lukasz
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To: Lukasz
First, this system was forced on the German episcopate by the state. It was not their idea.

Second, the Vatican has fully supported them on this. Quite rightly so. Perhaps you are unaware, but the way you exempt yourself from church tax in Germany is by publicly renouncing your church membership. You either go to a magistrate or to the parish office in person and formally renounce your allegiance to the church of your baptism. Someone who publicly proclaims that they are no longer a Catholic has excommunicated himself and forfeited the sacraments. In fact, the gall of someone demanding the sacraments after openly committing apostasy is morally repugnant.

Third, many Germans who pay no church tax - because they are poor and do not have sufficient taxable income - are still very welcome. The issue is not one of payment, but of public renunciation of the Church.

131 posted on 09/29/2012 4:12:50 PM PDT by wideawake
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To: wideawake
German episcopate was not forced because German state has no such power. They welcomed this idea because it is profitable for them.
You need to realize that most of the people who declared themselves Catholic in fact rarely attend to German churches. So they would not support the church in traditional way.
On other hand most of the German clergy do little to bring people to real Catholic faith. While such people would support the church voluntary in traditional way for sure. Catholics don't need socialist anti-Christian state to control their church donations.
You need to realize that German church is in tragic shape and I don't talk about money. Orthodox Catholics (in opposition to liberal ones) are often forced to travel far outside of their territorial church if they wish to see some sacrum during the mass. They would love to support the church in the place that they attend where they met God-loving priests. They don't want to support liberal episcopate allied with unfriendly state.
Would you support people who tolerate such masses?? http://breviarium.blogspot.com/2012/09/kto-powiedzia-ze-nom-musi-byc-nudny.html

The case is simple, Vatican court already ruled out that Catholics who refuse to participate in this founding system cannot be excommunicated. You are Catholic if you believe in Catholic dogmas (I doubt that many German bishops would pass such test, by the way).
Beside of that people who boycott the system donate in the traditional way by giving cash directly to priest.
132 posted on 09/30/2012 1:48:48 AM PDT by Lukasz
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To: Lukasz
Paradox, German bishops are willing to offer sacraments to those who rarely attend to church but officially declared themselves Catholics.

While they refuse to offer sacraments to those who attend regularly, declare themselves Catholic and donate in traditional way.

So please tell me what is important for German bishops, faith, people or maybe just cash?
133 posted on 09/30/2012 2:03:45 AM PDT by Lukasz
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