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Theologians Find Matthew Vines' 'Homosexuality Is Not a Sin' Thesis Not Persuasive
Christian Post ^ | 09/30/2012 | Lillian Kwon

Posted on 09/30/2012 7:48:31 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Editor's Note:

This is part two in a three-part series that will feature both sides of the debate on the Bible and homosexuality. The series launched with an interview with Matthew Vines.

This second story features responses from evangelical theologians. Ending the series will be guest contributions from Christians who have chosen not to engage in homosexuality and those who don't believe a gay lifestyle conflicts with the Bible.

"Being gay is not a sin" is the mantra that one young Harvard student is trying to promulgate. But while Matthew Vines has attracted a growing following with what some are describing as accessible, scholarly arguments, evangelical scholars don't believe he'll make much headway in the Christian community.

"His arguments are not new, and his predecessors failed to win the day within the Christian community," said Dr. Evan Lenow, assistant professor of Ethics at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. "Therefore, I doubt he will have significant impact in the long term."

Vines, 22, grew up in a Christian home and takes his faith seriously. Thus, as a homosexual feeling conflicted with the church's teaching – that homosexuality is a sin – he decided to take a leave of absence from Harvard University two years ago in order to study Scripture and dozens of scholarly works on the subject.

The Wichita, Kan., resident went into his research questioning the "traditional" teaching as it has caused emotional devastation among gay persons in the church, according to Vines. Also motivating his study was a picture of a bleak future for him – where he would "always be left out" and "always be alone" while his friends get married and have children.

Two years later, he ended up producing a dissertation that he believes "dismantles every Bible-based argument against homosexuality."

But the arguments he presents have been rehashed from the work of such scholars as Finnish Old Testament scholar Martti Nissinen, homosexual New Testament scholar Dale Martin (Yale), and homosexual church historian John Boswell, according to Dr. Robert Gagnon, associate professor of New Testament at the Pittsburgh Theological Seminary, who is considered the foremost expert on the Bible and homosexuality.

"Every one of these rehashed arguments I have refuted in previous work, of which Vines shows not the slightest awareness," said Gagnon, who studied the issue for 15 years after completing a masters of theological studies at Harvard Divinity and a Ph.D. in New Testament at Princeton Theological Seminary.

Nevertheless, Vines is challenging the "traditional interpretation" of Scripture, maintaining that Christians who hold this view are misreading the Bible.

His arguments can be viewed in an hour-long video where he breaks down six passages (seven if you include the Creation account) in Scripture that are commonly used to condemn homosexual behavior.

The Christian Post asked several evangelical theologians to respond to some of those arguments.

Genesis: God Created Them Male and Female

Vines argued (in his video) that while Christians cite the Genesis account of God creating a man and a woman to argue against same-sex unions, he said they miss an important point in the creation story.

"In Genesis 2:18, God says, 'It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him,'" Vines stressed.

For Adam, that suitable partner was Eve, a woman. And for most men, a woman is the right partner. But for homosexuals, a "suitable" partner would be someone of the same-sex, Vines contended.

"But the necessary consequence of the traditional teaching on homosexuality is that, even though gay people have suitable partners, they must reject them, and they must live alone for their whole lives," he maintained. "By holding to the traditional interpretation, we are now contradicting the Bible's own teachings: the Bible teaches that it is not good for the man to be forced to be alone, and yet now, we are teaching that it is."

Rejecting the argument, Lenow told CP, "Mr. Vines is missing the point of the text. Prior to the creation of Eve, Adam was naming the animals. Part of the creation mandate in Genesis 1 is that the animals would reproduce after their kind. This is explicitly stated in Gen 1:22 regarding the sea creatures and birds and implied regarding the beasts of the earth in the language of 'after their kind' in Gen 1:24-25.

"Adam surely noticed that each of the animals had a 'partner' by which they could reproduce. Thus, part of the idea that it was not good for man to be alone was that he could not reproduce 'after his kind' without a suitable partner. Therefore, as part of the first marriage in Genesis 2, God intended for procreation to be a part of this union."

Lenow added: "We need to look at Adam not only as a historical figure but also as the representative of all mankind. Scripture itself views Adam in this way in Romans 5 as Paul speaks to sin entering the world through one man – Adam. Therefore, in this context, we see Adam representing all of mankind. God's design for man is that he could enter into a complementary relationship with a woman, who is like him yet still different. At a very basic level, the complementary biological differences between man and woman make this clear. Thus, homosexual intercourse cannot be the union of a man and his suitable helper since the complementary biological differences do not exist.

"Related to this, if God viewed marriage as the means for mankind to reproduce after his kind, then homosexual marriage and intercourse violates God's command in Gen 1:28."

Sean McDonough, professor of New Testament at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary, also offered his take.

"His (Vines') take on Genesis 1 is theologically incoherent. He seems to concede the goodness of God's creation of man and woman (which forms the basis for subsequent biblical teaching on marriage and sexuality), then claims that in the current state of things homosexual desire is natural, and therefore good, for homosexuals. But this spectacularly avoids the problem of the Fall in Genesis 3.

"One might equally argue that while peace was a desirable state for Adam and Eve in Eden, murderous envy was the 'natural' state of Cain, and thus he cannot be condemned for acting on his innate desires. He also suggests that the only possible way not to be alone in the world is to be in a sexual relationship. Why would this be so?"

Also denouncing Vines' argument that it is not good for man to be alone and that a "suitable" partner is needed, Gagnon of Pittsburgh Seminary stated:

"Such arguments [show] a complete disregard for context, which stresses that the missing sexual element in man is woman. A more accurate rendering of the Hebrew than NIV's 'helper suitable for him' is 'a helper as his counterpart (ezer kenegdo).' The Hebrew term kĕnegdô consists of kĕ meaning as, like; suffix ô meaning his; and neged connoting both corresponding to (i.e., similarity as humans) and opposite (i.e. difference as regards a distinct sex extracted from him). The text does not present the sex of the 'counterpart' or 'complement' as optional. Four times in three verses (2:21-23) the narrator emphasizes that something is 'taken from' the adam or undifferentiated human and formed into a woman ('side' may be a better translation than 'rib' of Hebrew tsela' since it means this in its 36 other uses in the Hebrew Bible). The principle of two sexes becoming one flesh is thus grounded in the picture of two sexes emerging from one flesh (2:24). What is required in the story line of Gen 2:21-24 is not merely a joining or merger of two persons but a rejoining of the two sexes into one.

"Orientation does not take precedence over formal (embodied, structural) prerequisites such as gender, monogamy, and age. If people are unhappy with God's conditional provision, they do not get to choose whatever option brings satisfaction to their sexual desires.

"Moreover, while it is 'not good' for humans to be alone, it is far worse for humans to engage in same-sex intercourse. The former is not a sin but an experience of deprivation. The latter is regarded by Scripture as a violation of a core value in sexual ethics. To engage in same-sex intercourse as a means to averting loneliness is to subvert a higher value in Scripture for the sake of lesser consideration."

Natural vs. Unnatural; Lust vs. Loving

Romans 1:26-27 is a New Testament passage where the Apostle Paul writes, "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. In the same way, the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error." (NIV)

Here, Vines defined "natural" differently from evangelical Christians, who view God's original design of male and female as natural.

"Gay people have a natural, permanent orientation toward those of the same sex; it's not something that they choose, and it's not something that they can change," he asserted.

"If the point of this passage is to rebuke those who have spurned their true nature, be it religious when it comes to idolatry or sexual, then just as those who are naturally heterosexual should not be with those of the same sex, so, too, those who have a natural orientation toward the same sex should not be with those of the opposite sex."

He added, "Paul's reference to same-sex behavior is intended to illustrate this larger sin of idolatry. But in order for this analogy to have any force, in order for it to make sense within this argument, the people he is describing must naturally begin with heterosexual relations and then abandon them."

Lenow's rebuttal:

"The crux of his argument is that Paul knows nothing of committed same-sex relationships. Therefore, the violation would have to be heterosexuals (by orientation) participating in homosexual behavior. The problem with this is multi-faceted. First, it assumes that Scripture is not fully inspired by God. Even if Paul knew nothing of sexual orientation, the Holy Spirit inspired the text. This would imply that God himself was not aware of the concept of sexual orientation and was incapable of framing the message in such a way that it would be clear.

"Second, the idea that homosexuals have a 'natural' inclination towards relationships with people of the same sex is in fact a rejection of what God has revealed about himself. Paul's condemnation of idolatry in verses 22-25 is based on the fact that the unrighteous 'exchanged the truth of God for a lie.' Part of the truth of God is what he has revealed about the creation.

"As told to us in Genesis 2-3 and evident in observing nature, God created two genders that complement one another in multiple ways, not the least of which is through biological differences making sexual intercourse procreative. To reject this natural sexual function of the body is to reject how God created mankind in Genesis 1-2. Thus, Mr. Vines is committing the same sin that he rests solely on the backs of those who worshiped false gods – exchanging the truth of God for a lie.

"Finally, Mr. Vines assumes as scientific fact that which has not been proven. He assumes that sexual orientation is permanent and part of one's genetic make-up. However, there is no scientific study that proves Mr. Vines' position. All scientific studies attempted to prove this suffer from small sample sizes and preconceived agendas."

Dr. Richard J. Mouw, president of Fuller Seminary, also opposed Vines' argument.

"It is difficult to get around the clear implication here that 'natural relations' means a relationship between a man and a woman. It is quite a leap to suggest that Paul was not ruling out same-sex intimacy. The fact that he does not elaborate on this seems clearly to be due to the fact that he simply takes all same-sex intimacy to be violations of God's creating and redeeming will. It isn't just lustful homosexuality that counts as 'abandoning natural relations' but same-sex intimacy as such."

Gagnon, an ordained elder in the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.), asserted that Vines errs in arguing that the Apostle Paul "has only lustful homosexual relationships in view since (allegedly) committed homosexual relationships were unknown in the ancient world."

"Vines … errs in claiming that nothing akin to homosexual orientation was known in the ancient world. Greco-Roman theories (Platonic, Aristotelian, Hippocratic, and even astrological) existed that posited at least some congenital basis for some forms of homosexual attraction, particularly on the part of males desiring to be penetrated," the Pittsburgh professor noted.

"Simply put, many in the ancient world attributed one or more forms of homosexual practice to an interaction of nature and nurture. Moreover, many believed that homoerotic impulses could be very resistant to change. As classicist Thomas K. Hubbard notes, 'homosexuality in this era [viz., of the early imperial age of Rome] may have ceased to be merely another practice of personal pleasure and began to be viewed as an essential and central category of personal identity, exclusive of and antithetical to heterosexual orientation' (Homosexuality in Greece and Rome: A Sourcebook of Basic Documents [University of California Press, 2003], 386). Hubbard also points to a series of later texts from the second to fourth centuries that 'reflect the perception that sexual orientation is something fixed and incurable' (ibid., 446). It is important to remember that many of the same Greco-Roman moralists and physicians who held such views could still oppose the behaviors arising from homoerotic predispositions.

"Paul viewed sin as innate, generating impulses that people don't ask for and often wish they could get rid of. If some Greco-Roman moralists and physicians, operating within a culture that tolerated and at times endorsed at least some homosexual practice, could reject forms of homosexual practice committed by those with a biological predisposition, it is virtually impossible that Paul, operating out of a Jewish subculture, would have embraced homosexual unions entered into by homosexually oriented persons.

"There is nothing in the language of Rom 1:24-27 that limits Paul's indictment only to exploitative or promiscuous forms of homosexual relations. On the contrary, Paul clearly echoes Gen 1:26-27 in Rom 1:23, 26-27, picking up from Gen 1:26-27 eight terms in the same tripartite sequence (human, image, likeness; birds, four-footed animals, reptiles; male, female). Paul's indictment centers around what homosexual practice is not and can never be: a complementary sexual union between 'male and female.'"

Rejecting Vines' argument that Paul only condemns lustful behavior and heterosexuals engaging in homosexual acts, Gagnon further maintained that the expressions "exchanged" and "leaving behind" do not refer to a willful exchange of heterosexual desire for homosexual desire.

"Rather, they refer to a choice of gratifying innate homoerotic desires instead of complying with the evidence of male-female complementarity transparent in material creation or nature. This is clear from the preceding example involving idolatry, where Paul states that the Gentiles exchanged the truth about God and the glory of God transparent to human reason through observation of 'the things made' by God. Likewise, on the horizontal sphere, some humans suppressed the truth about male-female complementarity evident in anatomical and physiological structures of male and female and instead pursued gratification of innate urges to have intercourse with members of the same sex.

"Although Vines claims that Paul means by 'nature' merely social convention, an examination of the use of the word phusis in Paul suggests otherwise. 'Nature' in Paul corresponds to the essential material, inherent, biological, or organic constitution of things as created and set in motion by God (Gal 2:15; 4:8; Rom 2:14; 2:27; 11:21, 24). This includes even the reference to nature in 1 Cor 11:14-15 where the hair argument is similar to the Stoic argument for beards for men, based on natural endowment. Specifically, nature gives an indication that scalp hair is more indispensable for women than for men by making major hair loss there much rarer for women. (Vines incorrectly reads Paul as saying that nature allows men only short hair.)

"Obviously, the conclusion drawn from an observation of nature is more convincing in some cases than others, which is probably why the nature argument is only one of multiple arguments used in 1 Cor 11:2-16, whereas it is the argument, along with the echo to Gen 1:27, that Paul uses to reject homosexual practice in Rom 1:26-27."

Homosexuals Won't Inherit the Kingdom of God?

In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Paul lists those who will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Vines noted that the King James Version includes those who are "effeminate" but later translations have altered the word to "homosexuals" or "men who have sex with men."

"Effeminate" in the Greek is "malakos" which literally means "soft," he pointed out. In a sexual context, the word was used to describe general licentiousness and debauchery and men who took the passive role in sexual relations. But Vines argued that the term was also used in other contexts such as to label those who are weak-willed, cowardly or lazy.

"So many people were labeled this term for so many different things – most of them not even sexual in nature, and most of the sexual ones about men in relationships with women ... The notion that Paul is singling out gay people here and saying that they will not inherit the kingdom of God simply doesn't hold up under scrutiny."

McDonough said Vines' argument is "fatally flawed."

"He (Vines) fails to recognize that Paul is using (or creating himself) a word drawn directly from the vocabulary in Leviticus 18," noted the Gordon-Conwell professor. "Thus not only does he fail to see that Paul is indeed forbidding all homosexual practice in the church, he is doing so precisely on the basis of the Law – a Law which, contra Vines, was still looked upon a guide for Christian faith and practice in all sorts of ways."

Vines has argued that the "only place in Scripture where male same-sex relations are actually prohibited" is in Leviticus. The Old Testament law code, however, never applied to Christians, he asserted. "We are not subject to the Old Law" because of "Christ's fulfillment of the law," he said.

McDonough offered: "How can we tell which bits (of the Old Testament law) to obey and which bits are purely ritual? One way is to pay attention to places where New Testament writers explicitly uphold the law as here in 1 Corinthians 6."

Where's Jesus?

The Christian scholars called Vines out for not addressing Jesus' teachings.

"Another aspect of the biblical case for marriage that Mr. Vines does not address is the teaching of Jesus regarding marriage," Lenow observed.

"In Matthew 19:3-12, Jesus is confronted by the Pharisees about marriage. While their question addresses the issue of divorce, Jesus answers them with his interpretation of God's design for marriage – one man and one woman for life," said Lenow.

"In verses 4-6, Jesus responds, 'Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.' In this passage, Jesus affirms that God created male and female and that marriage is designed between one man and one woman ... Biblical marriage and biblical sexuality is heterosexual in nature according to Jesus himself."

McDonough also highlighted Jesus' teaching.

"While Vines doesn't make much of Jesus' own ethical teaching here, it is worth pointing out Jesus' severe denunciation of sexual immorality in the Sermon on the Mount," said McDonough. "It is historically unthinkable to imagine a Jesus who, as a Scripture-following Jew, would simultaneously intensify the Law's teaching on heterosexual immorality, and yet toss aside the Law's clear teaching on homosexual immorality."

Gagnon, meanwhile, cited Mark 10:2-9 (parallel in Matthew 19: 3-9) where Jesus "clearly extrapolated a limit on the number of persons in a sexual union to two from the twoness of the sexes given by God in creation for complementary sexual pairing: 'male and female [God] made them' (Gen 1:27) and 'For this reason a man … will be joined to his woman and the two will become one flesh (Gen 2:24)."

"If Jesus regarded a male-female prerequisite as foundational for formulating other principles in sexual ethics (like prohibitions of polygamy and a revolving door of divorce and remarriage), he obviously was strongly opposed to a behavior that directly called into question that very prerequisite (homosexual practice)," the Pittsburgh Seminary professor contended.

"Why, then, didn't Jesus speak against homosexual practice explicitly? Quite simply, no one in the Judaism of his day was even advocating for homosexual practice, let alone engaging in it. For the same reason Jesus said nothing against incest. It is a historical no-brainer that he didn't need to because Jews already regarded this as a severe offense. Jesus set out to close the few remaining loopholes in the Law of Moses regarding sexual ethics. There never was a loophole for homosexual practice in the Scriptures.

"Every text in Scripture from Genesis to Revelation treating sexual matters – whether narrative, law, proverb, poetry, moral exhortation, or metaphor – presupposes a male-female prerequisite for all sexual activity. This is hardly a minor position within Scripture. It is, as Jesus noted, a position foundational for all matters of sexual ethics."

Denying Homosexuals Happiness?

To sum up his thesis, Vines stated that the Bible "never directly addresses, and it certainly does not condemn, loving, committed same-sex relationships."

Yet the "traditional" teaching denies a "small minority of people ... a lifetime of love and commitment and family" which in turn inflicts "on them a devastating level of hurt and anguish," the young student said in his appeal to Christians.

"There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that Christians are called to perpetuate that kind of pain in other people's lives rather than work to alleviate it, especially when the problem is so easy to fix. All it takes is acceptance."

Lenow responded:

"When Mr. Vines speaks of inflicting devastating pain and anguish on homosexuals by denying them the opportunity to marry, he is attempting to quantify pain and pleasure and determine if one outweighs the other. However, such attempts at moral calculus are inconsistent at best. Instead, we should evaluate whether or not homosexual relationships accomplish the goods of marriage according to Scripture.

"Since marriage is not commanded, proponents of same-sex marriage are actually attempting to accomplish a good at the expense of biblical sexuality. Therefore, the evil inflicted by active participation in sin actually undermines any good that could be accomplished in a loving, committed relationship. Mr. Vines, then, has transferred the blame for sin from those in violation of God's command to those who are attempting to uphold the clear teaching of Scripture."

Mouw acknowledged the need to have "real empathy" for those who struggle with same-sex attraction.

But he added, "It is a false choice to say that either we bless same-sex relationships or condemn a person like Vines 'to be alone the rest of his life.' There are many ways to remain celibate and still experience genuine community, including mutually nurturing friendships and shared commitments to serving the Kingdom."

Redefining Sin

So far, Vines' YouTube video has attracted nearly 400,000 views and the praises of the LGBT community.

Freelance writer Douglas Quenqua recently called Vines "a voice for gay Christians" who is making an impact, in The New York Times. Quenqua quoted James Gooch, a 21-year-old gay Christian, as saying, "I found my faith all over again in that video."

Though Vines' arguments may be nothing new, Lenow believes part of the attraction has to do with Vines' presentation.

"Most proponents of homosexuality have not been making biblical arguments in recent years. Now there is a young man making a plea from Scripture in support of homosexuality," he observed. "Many people still enjoy hearing a reasoned argument, and that is what Mr. Vines is attempting to do."

But for McDonough, Vines' main appeal is emotional, "with a thin dusting of logic on top."

"Vines presents himself as a sensitive, rational soul simply trying to figure out what the Bible really says. But underneath the veneer there is a pretty manipulative premise: if you disagree with me, you are by definition cruel and oppressive," McDonough commented. "Who wants to be cruel and oppressive?"

The evangelical scholars agreed that Vines may be able to sway some believers.

"We are living in a time when many younger folks are looking for alternatives to traditional Christian views about sexuality," said Mouw of Fuller. "Unless we do a much better job of ministering to people with their very real dilemmas, arguments like those set forth by Vines will arise, even though they are highly speculative as interpretations of biblical teaching."

But ultimately, the question is whether Vines has interpreted Scripture correctly, the scholars emphasized.

"I see no good reason to accept his interpretations," said Mouw.

Lenow, meanwhile, believes those who hold a high view of the inspiration and authority of Scripture will not likely be swayed. "Mr. Vines is justifying sinful behavior and encouraging others to do the same. As Christians, we should call one another to holiness rather than to sin."

McDonough stressed the need to "show love for all" and to acknowledge that "we are all sinners saved by God's grace." But, he added, "giving up on the Scripture and redefining sin so that people can follow their own desires is no way to love them."

It's only been in the last four to five decades that people in the church have attempted to condone homosexuality from a biblical standpoint, according to Lenow.

If one were to follow Vines' logic, that calling homosexuality a sin marginalizes homosexuals, then the church would have to approve of all things that the Bible calls sin "lest we marginalize any segment of society," Lenow noted.

"This would, in effect, eliminate sin from Scripture and eliminate our need for a Savior. By doing so, we would eliminate the church and Christianity."


TOPICS: Current Events; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: gagnon; homosexuality; matthewvines; robertgagnon; sin

1 posted on 09/30/2012 7:48:39 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

This response was necessitated because of an interview with MATTHEW VINES.

You can read it here:

http://www.christianpost.com/news/matthew-vines-says-most-christians-are-wrong-homosexuality-is-not-a-sin-82026/

Matthew Vines is a 22-year-old gay Christian who believes being gay is not a sin. He came to that conclusion after two years of studying Scripture and the works of dozens of biblical scholars. The Harvard University student, currently on leave of absence, is now trying to win over fellow believers not just with an emotional testimony but with what he is presenting as biblically solid arguments.
“There is no contradiction between being Christian and being gay,” he told BBC.

His arguments – mainly against six Bible passages that are commonly used by Christians to condemn homosexuality – are gaining popularity as evidenced by his YouTube views. In six months, an over hour-long video of Vines meticulously challenging what he calls the traditional interpretation of Scripture has garnered nearly 400,000 views.

In an interview with The Christian Post, Vines made it clear that he believes that Christians who believe homosexuality is a sin are wrong. “Loving, same-sex relationships” are not addressed in the Bible, let alone condemned.


2 posted on 09/30/2012 7:50:15 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (bOTRT)
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To: SeekAndFind

WRONG

3 posted on 09/30/2012 7:53:56 AM PDT by bmwcyle (Corollary - Electing the same person over and over and expecting a different outcome is insanity)
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To: SeekAndFind

It is the homosexual act that is the sin. Simply being attracted to someone of the same sex or opposing sex is not a sin, but acting on that is the problem.

We are all tempted by many things. “Temptation” is not a sin. Don’t let it go further.


4 posted on 09/30/2012 7:58:38 AM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: ConservativeMind

Correct.

I did not agree with Gore Vidal on many things, but he was clear on the point you made. He said no one is homosexual. And no one is heterosexual. There are simply activities. Some acts are homosexual. Some acts are heterosexual. That’s it. He engaged in homosexual acts, but thought it was silly to classify himself as a homosexual.

What this does is highlight the fallacy of “I was born this way”. It shows that homosexuality is a lifestyle. It’s a choice. It can be fought against, and people can be normal if they choose to be normal. Recognizing the sinfulness of the acts is a good start, but some refuse to do so.


5 posted on 09/30/2012 8:06:17 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (ua)
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To: SeekAndFind

It turns on a definitional question about the term “gay”.

If “gay” is understood as meaning the subjective state of a man being sexually attracted only to other men, but not to women, then indeed being “gay” is not a sin, rather it is a besetting temptation.

If “gay” is understood as meaning engaging in homoerotic acts, then “being gay” is a sequence of sins (though in that case I find the use of the verb to be in this context dubious, since engaging in sodomy is not an ontological matter, but a behavioral one.)


6 posted on 09/30/2012 8:07:40 AM PDT by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know...)
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To: SeekAndFind

IMHO homosexuality is a sexual perversion, with or without regard to biblical priciples.


7 posted on 09/30/2012 8:10:08 AM PDT by umgud (No Rats, No Rino's)
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To: SeekAndFind

Homosexual behavior is not God’s way.


8 posted on 09/30/2012 8:13:54 AM PDT by FlyingEagle
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To: SeekAndFind
This Vines kid is a glowing example of why amateurs shouldn't try to "do this at home." Consider the arrogance of a 22 year-old whose arguments are crippled by confirmation bias, who thinks he can skim the surface, tweak a few words, and rebut centuries of considered thinking just so he can feel better. Rather pathetic, really, and hardly newsworthy.
9 posted on 09/30/2012 8:18:49 AM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: SeekAndFind
I'm still confounded by the fact that just because you use your penis in an unsanitary, unnatural and anti-biological way with a person who, through billions of years of natural selection was never intended to be your mate, makes you so special and so entitled to special so-called “rights.”

But then again, if every murderer voted Democrat the Left would find a way to decriminalize homicide.

10 posted on 09/30/2012 8:18:50 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Mitt who? I'm voting for Ryan.")
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To: SeekAndFind
"This would, in effect, eliminate sin from Scripture and eliminate our need for a Savior. By doing so, we would eliminate the church and Christianity."

That's what they're after. Demoralization of mankind.

11 posted on 09/30/2012 8:24:00 AM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (0bama's agenda¬óDivide and conquer. FREEDOM OR FREE STUFF- YOU GET ONE CHOICE, CHOOSE WISELY)
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To: hinckley buzzard

Indeed! My thoughts exactly. Unfortunately, this is the world we live in now. Apparently, wisdom is only found in the young, “open minds” of today’s youth.


12 posted on 09/30/2012 8:56:32 AM PDT by Jagdgewehr (It will take blood)
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To: SeekAndFind

Homosexuality is not a sin. Heterosexuality is not a sin. Homosexual actions and desires for adultery are a sin.


13 posted on 09/30/2012 9:03:56 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: SeekAndFind

I assume murderers feel “emotional devastation” knowing their actions are sins, too, but at least no one listens to their special pleadings. I want to hear this argument from someone who despises homosexuality for once.


14 posted on 09/30/2012 9:04:49 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: SeekAndFind

“Loving same-sex relationships,” okay. Sexing same-sex relationships, I don’t think so.


15 posted on 09/30/2012 9:08:20 AM PDT by Tublecane
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I wonder if this guy is a Christian at all. Growing up in a Christian household doesn’t make one Christian. Clearly this guy is troubled. He’s trying to make his sinful life right with God instead of being humble repenting of his sin and praying to God for help to no longer sin.


16 posted on 09/30/2012 9:09:46 AM PDT by RginTN
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To: ClearCase_guy

We don’t need to go that far. I wouldn’t say a heterodexual’s attractions and fantasied are one hundred percent heterosexual, but there is a strong connection between desire and action. Show me a man who has sex only with women and I’ll probably see someone who thinks mostly about having sec with only women.

If I ate an apple every morning of my lif there would be nothing wrong or dehumanizing about calling me an apple eater. Likewise, serial homologue or heterosexers can be called with accuracy homosexuals and heterosexuals. Nothing about doing so implies that they aren’t as complex or inscrutable as any human who ever lived.

Which is not to say everyone’s “born that way.” Men in prison prove otherwise, if nothing else.


17 posted on 09/30/2012 9:15:43 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: SeekAndFind
"Every man's way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts."
Proverbs 21:2
18 posted on 09/30/2012 9:18:07 AM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: ConservativeMind
"It is the homosexual act that is the sin. Simply being attracted to someone of the same sex or opposing sex is not a sin, but acting on that is the problem. We are all tempted by many things. “Temptation” is not a sin. Don’t let it go further."

Well said.

19 posted on 09/30/2012 9:18:36 AM PDT by ex-snook (without forgiveness there is no Christianity)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Sorry, that post was filled with a egregious amount of bad autocorrects.


20 posted on 09/30/2012 9:19:03 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

Not a problem. Perhaps I quibble, but I think the philosophical or theological issue is simply this: Do humans have a defined nature or essence beyong simply being generally sinful? I have free will. I can do anything. I can be anything. My choices are my own, and many of my choices are mistakes. I wrestle with gluttony more than some other sins. On the whole, lust is not a sin that I wrestle with all that much (happily married). Different people are tempted by different things. I don’t know that their personal temptations really reflect on any particular “essence” of their nature.


21 posted on 09/30/2012 9:28:35 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (ua)
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To: SeekAndFind
At least the young man is studying Scripture. He may find the truth.

1 Timothy 8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.

Sodomy means sodomy. This cannot be explained away. 1Cor 6:9 says both homosexuality and sodomy just to be clear.

22 posted on 09/30/2012 9:33:42 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: ClearCase_guy

You don’t have to be much of an essentialist to go further than Vidal, though. I don’t assume you object to calling people Republicans or doctors, for instance, based on what they do. I figure sexual orientation to be more basic than your occupation or party affiliation. Not that I’m an orientation essentialist along the lines of the rainbow activists. Just that attraction to and congress with hims or hers can be very consistent.

Anyway, if all we were allowed to say is that we’re sinful humans describing humanity would be knida boring.


23 posted on 09/30/2012 9:37:10 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: DaveMSmith

RE: At least the young man is studying Scripture. He may find the truth.

2 Peter 3:15-16

5 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.


24 posted on 09/30/2012 9:49:38 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (bOTRT)
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To: Tublecane
Indeed. But I would say this --

Ronald Reagan was a Democrat. Then he smartened up and became a Republican. It wasn't hard to do. One can say "I 'am' a Democrat" without denying the possibility of change.
Some folks like candy. Then they become diabetic and the candy has to go. One can say "I 'am' a candy lover" without actually eating candy.

Some folks like their wine. Then they like it too much and they struggle with alcoholism. Some win that struggle and some do not. Now, some folks do say "I 'am" an alcoholic and I cannot change. I may never drink again, but I will always "be" an alcoholic."

Homosexuality may be like that. It's not like "being" a Democrat, or "being" a candy lover. It's like having a strong and relentless temptation toward alcohol. On the whole, society recognizes that fighting that temptation is worthwhile.

But the homosexuals have convinced society that their little temptation needs to be applauded. They say their homosexuality is essential to their being. It cannot be changed. It cannot be fought. Indeed, they wish to embrace that sin with actual pride.

I guess I like Gore Vidal's approach because he was unapologetic about just choosing to be that way. He didn't have to be that way. It wasn't like he was born that way. He just liked it that way.

I found that refreshing and honest.

25 posted on 09/30/2012 9:50:46 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy (ua)
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To: ClearCase_guy

RE: Gore Vidal

By the time he was 25, he had already had more than 1,000 sexual encounters with both men and women, he boasted in his memoir “Palimpsest.”

Mr. Vidal tended toward what he called “same-sex sex,” but frequently declared that human beings were inherently bisexual, and that labels like gay (a term he disliked) or straight were arbitrary and unhelpful.

For 53 years, he had a live-in companion, Howard Austen, a former advertising executive, but the secret of their relationship, he often said, was that they did not sleep together.


26 posted on 09/30/2012 10:07:52 AM PDT by SeekAndFind (bOTRT)
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To: SeekAndFind
I hold out more hope for him than folks like Dan Savage (See Dan Savage ‘bullying’ Christians by calling Bible ‘bullsh*t’)

I see the destruction Peter is talking about being not a destruction of the individual but that of the 'old man', redeemed through repentance of sin. The Lord loves all and wishes all to His kingdom. Faith and salvation is a path and process.

27 posted on 09/30/2012 10:30:59 AM PDT by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: SeekAndFind
Matthew Vines is a 22-year-old gay Christian

To be a CHRISTian, you have to be Christ-like.

Which by definition, means you cannot be engaging in behaviors that God has called sinful, much less, an abomination.

Matthew can call himself a Christian all day long, but until he quits sinning, he is a sinner bound for Hell.
28 posted on 09/30/2012 11:17:01 AM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: ConservativeMind
Simply being attracted to someone of the same sex or opposing sex is not a sin, but acting on that is the problem.

Actually, I don't believe that's correct.

“You have heard the commandment that says, ‘You must not commit adultery.’But I say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. So if your eye—even your good eye—causes you to lust, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your hand—even your stronger hand—causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell."

--Matthew 5:27-30, NLT

Even heterosexuals thinking about lusting after each other is a sin. It requires forgiveness. Homosexuals lusting after each other is easily as bad. Yet few seriously discuss full-on acceptance of adultery. Homosexuality, however, gets quite a full-court press for acceptance for some reason.

29 posted on 09/30/2012 12:27:16 PM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Future Snake Eater

“Lust” is a sin. Looking or being attracted, isn’t.


30 posted on 09/30/2012 2:33:36 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: SeekAndFind
At least the young man is studying Scripture. He may find the truth.

Sadly, he's not looking for truth but for loopholes.

31 posted on 09/30/2012 2:38:16 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
Sadly, he's not looking for truth but for loopholes.

Yep. The Devil can use scripture too ( see how he tempted Jesus).
32 posted on 09/30/2012 4:54:37 PM PDT by SeekAndFind (bOTRT)
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To: SeekAndFind

A lot of people don’t believe in hell either but that doesn’t that they won’t be there!


33 posted on 09/30/2012 5:31:24 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: SeekAndFind

A lot of people don’t believe in hell either but that doesn’t mean that they won’t be there!


34 posted on 09/30/2012 5:31:46 PM PDT by ForAmerica (Texas Conservative Christian Black Man!)
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To: Future Snake Eater; ConservativeMind
Here are a few thoughts.

It's true that there are "internal acts" which are deliberate: indulging in lustful fantasies, using mental images for self-stimulation, generally running porn in your head. To the entent that they are intentional, these are sins in themselves, whether you ever act on them externally or not.

This is different, however, from unbidden temptations: feelings of desire which distract or torment you, and which you did not choose to harbor in your head. People troubled in this way (whether they are temptations to lust, wrath, jealousy, envy, revenge or whatever) have an obligation to figure out how to drain the power out of these thoughts, change them, or escape them without succumbing.

Bottom line: unbidden feelings are not sins, even if they assail you strongly and persistently. Inward surrender to lustful thoughts, though, is a sin.

I reckon 99% of people experience forbidden appetites at some point in their lives -- maybe for years ---- and have to learn how to achieve a level of inward peace and self-control.

This is a major and gradual achievement, a struggle, and not an easy one for most of us.

35 posted on 09/30/2012 5:31:56 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Just the facts, ma'am, just the facts.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well said!


36 posted on 09/30/2012 6:22:38 PM PDT by ConservativeMind ("Humane" = "Don't pen up pets or eat meat, but allow infanticide, abortion, and euthanasia.")
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To: SeekAndFind

My question for him and those who think like him is as follows: do you really think the first century Christian church where all the NT books are addressed to initially would have thought homosexual behavior(or any sexual behavior outside the defintion of marriage that Jesus affirmed in Matthew 19:4-6 for that matter) is not sinful?

Whether he likes it or not, the Bible is “hopelessly heteronormative” just as Steve Schlissel described the Bible as “hopelessly patriarchal”. I would also add it’s “hopelessly Jewish” as well.


37 posted on 10/01/2012 9:28:32 PM PDT by ReformationFan
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To: SeekAndFind
If one were to follow Vines' logic, that calling homosexuality a sin marginalizes homosexuals, then the church would have to approve of all things that the Bible calls sin "lest we marginalize any segment of society," Lenow noted.

"This would, in effect, eliminate sin from Scripture and eliminate our need for a Savior. By doing so, we would eliminate the church and Christianity."

And that, ladies and germs, IS the real goal behind such unabashed rationalizations and justifications for what Scripture clearly labels as SIN. The devil's operational mode has always been to countermand God's plan. Why should we be surprised when he pulls yet another trick out of his hat? Vines is not nearly as objective as he thinks he is nor is he being at all honest with others OR himself.

Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man sows, that shall he also reap. (Galatians 6:7)

But you have planted wickedness, you have reaped evil, you have eaten the fruit of deception. (Hosea 10:13)

38 posted on 10/01/2012 10:51:22 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: ConservativeMind

You’re right! We ALL have it in our natures to sin, but having that inclination to do something God calls wrong is not the same as actually committing the wrong act. By this young man’s logic, someone who has a natural inclination to have sex with children, should be allowed, “If it makes him happy.” Is he willing to go that far? Or, what about a woman who wants sex with an animal? Or a man having multiple wives? Where CAN the line be drawn if the only criteria is another’s “happiness”?


39 posted on 10/01/2012 10:59:06 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: boatbums

If he really wanted to address his temptation, he should first start on steady ground, studying more basic Bible doctrines, then after firming up a relationship with God, let God guide him through adversity.

Instead he has sought to take God’s Provision and reinterpret it by his own carnal mind, only proving a carnal reasoning to himself independent of God the Holy Spirit, thereby scarring his soul even more deeply.

It will be more difficult for him to approach God as though he were a babe, to begin a sanctifying process worked by God and not himself.


40 posted on 10/02/2012 2:45:20 AM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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