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Pope’s ambition, a blend of the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite, could sweep Church [Catholic Caucus]
CatholicHerald.co.uk ^ | Friday, 20 May 2011 | William Oddie

Posted on 10/04/2012 4:23:16 PM PDT by Salvation

The Pope’s ambition, a powerful blend of the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite, could sweep the Church

There are too many difficulties attending both the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite

By William Oddie on Friday, 20 May 2011

The Pope’s ambition, a powerful blend of the Novus Ordo and the Old Rite, could sweep the Church

Cardinal Walter Brandmüller celebrated the Extraordinary Form Mass at St Peter's Basilica on Sunday (CNS photo)

An extremely interesting story by John Thavis – which appears currently on the Herald’s homepage under the headline “Pope’s ‘reform of the reform’ in liturgy to continue” – reports what seems to me a potentially wondrous proposed advance. But will it happen? There is a danger that what amounts to an entirely new proposal of a fresh liturgical development, going beyond both the Ordinary and the Extraordinary forms of the Mass to something possibly better than either, will sink without trace: so here’s my two penn’orth towards getting it noticed and talked about, and I hope acted on. Here’s what Cardinal Kurt Koch, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity (of all things) said on Sunday:

“The Pope’s long-term aim is not simply to allow the old and new rites to co-exist, but to move toward a ‘common rite’ that is shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms.”

The fact is that both existing forms, as at present celebrated, lack something. Much has been alleged and lengthily spelled out about the defects of the Novus Ordo, so I say nothing about them here. But the Old Rite (I intend to call it that in future: “Extraordinary Form” sounds like a physical defect of some sort) also presents its difficulties, if for no other reason than that it has become so unfamiliar to many if not most people. I have always thought it nonsensical and wrong that the Old Rite should be banned in the aftermath of Vatican II; the liberalisation of its use following Summorum Pontificum was long overdue. But the great and undoubted riches of the Old Rite, it has seemed to me since I recently began to attend it on Sundays, are impeded from re-entering the mainstream of the Church’s liturgical life by an almost inseperable barrier. It’s very difficult indeed for anyone not actually brought up with it (and that’s a large and growing proportion of congregations these days) to find out what is actually going on, except at certain key points when bells, the elevations and so on, indicate it unmistakeably.

Though I have been moved by the powerful atmosphere of devotion surrounding the celebrations of the 1962 Mass I have attended, especially during the silent prayer of consecration itself, I have struggled during most of the celebration to pinpoint what point in the Mass we have actually reached: just where I am and what is happening. I have the text there in front of me, in both English and Latin: but when the Mass is being “said”, either virtually inaudibly or in total silence, it’s easy to get lost. Look, this isn’t in any way a negative reaction. But it is a difficulty. I will just have to persevere. But it’s discouraging. I had already studied (and been greatly moved by the beauty of) the text. There were some landmarks in it I was watching out for, for instance that wonderful opening declaration “Introibo ad altare Dei”: but I never even heard it the first time, and still haven’t. We were miles past it when I caught up. Now, as I say, I will need to persevere: but most people who don’t have a long acquaintanceship with the old Mass and how to attend it will be put off. And that is a very great pity.

So the idea of a “common rite” that is “shaped by the mutual enrichment of the two Mass forms” is very attractive to me. The Novus Ordo, celebrated in Latin as a High Mass (as it is in what I am fortunate to be able to say is the church I attend on Sundays, the Oxford Oratory), is very moving as it is. To add, for instance, the whole introductory rite of the old Mass, asperges and all, would immensely enrich it even further. In a new translation (which would have to be done to the same standard as that of the awaited translation of the Novus Ordo) it would help at churches which are, at the moment, liturgically struggling to get to the point of devotional take-off (I’m assuming, of course that there’ll be no guitars around by then: if there are, better for them to stick to the Novus Ordo we have rather than compromise the “enriched” form I look forward to having).

Meanwhile, the struggle to establish, often against the obstruction of local bishops, the absolute right of those who wish for it to have the old Mass, continues. As a story on this home page reports:

A new Vatican instruction calls on local bishops and pastors to respond generously to Catholics who seek celebration of the Mass according to the 1962 Roman Missal. The instruction, issued today, said pastors should approve such Masses for groups of faithful, even when such groups are small or are formed of people from different parishes or dioceses.

But the CDF statement does more than just call on bishops to “respond generously”, as though they had any business whatever doing anything else. It tells, them, in terms, that the people have an absolute right to the old Mass if they want it, and that they are not to get in the way:

The Motu Proprio Summorum Pontificum constitutes an important expression of the Magisterium of the Roman Pontiff and of his munus of regulating and ordering the Church’s Sacred Liturgy. The Motu Proprio manifests his solicitude as Vicar of Christ and Supreme Pastor of the Universal Church, and has the aim of:

a) offering to all [my italics] the faithful the Roman Liturgy in the Usus Antiquior, considered as a precious treasure to be preserved;

b) effectively guaranteeing and ensuring the use of the forma extraordinaria for all who ask for it, given that the use of the 1962 Roman Liturgy is a faculty generously granted for the good of the faithful and therefore is to be interpreted in a sense favourable to the faithful who are its principal addressees

Bishops are also instructed “to offer their clergy the possibility of acquiring adequate preparation for celebrations in the forma extraordinaria. This applies also to seminaries, where future priests should be given proper formation, including study of Latin and, where pastoral needs suggest it, the opportunity to learn the forma extraordinaria of the Roman Rite”.

So the people have a right to the old Mass: and the clergy should be trained in its use: that is the Pope’s wish. In the light of all that enthusiastic stuff about a “Benedict bounce” that we heard from the bishops after the Pope’s visit, can we expect them now to respect his wishes?

I have two motives in harrying the bishops in this matter: first, it’s a matter of justice: those who want the old Mass now have an actual right to it, and it’s the bishops’ pastoral duty actually to facilitate the implementation of that right. Second, the more the Old Rite is celebrated, the more likely, perhaps, will become what I would really like to see: a new rite, in which the best of the Novus Ordo (including two of the three new Canons) would be retained, with the whole liturgy enhanced by the riches of the Old Rite, now clearly and audibly celebrated for the first time: that could be a liturgical wonder which would sweep the Church.

I prattle, of course. There are too many enemies of any real “reform of the reform”, and they are too powerful, for any such thing to get off the ground anytime soon. Aren’t there? All the same, according to the Herald, Cardinal Koch says that this and nothing less is “the Pope’s long-term aim”. But how long is “long-term”? There’s the question. Ah, well.



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; liturgy; novusordo; rites
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Benedict XVI's Reform: The Liturgy Between Innovation and Tradition

Benedict XVI's Reform: The Liturgy Between Innovation and Tradition

by Nicola Bux

When Benedict XVI reestablished the celebration of the older Latin Mass, voices of protest rose up from many sides. The widespread fear was-and is-that the Pope had revealed himself as the reactionary defender of tradition that many have accused him of being since he was the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the former Holy Office.

Defenders of Benedict XVI have responded to these objections by explaining that the use of the Tridentine Rite is not a "step backward" to pre-Vatican II times, but rather a step forward. Now the Church can see what the older rite offered in terms of beauty, reverence, and meaning and perhaps desire more of those elements in the ordinary form of the Mass.

A professor of theology and liturgy, the author of this book explains the motives behind the Pope's decision to allow two forms of the Mass. He does this by turning to the Pope's own theological and liturgical writings, but he also draws from his experiences on various Church commissions and in offices of the Roman Curia.

The author also brings to his subject an astute understanding of current social and spiritual trends both inside and outside the Church. Sensitive to modern man's hunger for the sacred, he desires with Pope Benedict XVI that the Mass be first and foremost a place of encounter with the living God.

Nicola Bux is a priest of the Archdiocese of Bari and a professor of eastern liturgy and sacramental theology. He has studied and taught in Jerusalem and in Rome. He is a consultor to the Congregations for the Doctrine of the Faith and for the Causes of Saints and consultant of the international Catholic theological journal Communio. He was recently named a consultor to the Office of Liturgical Celebrations of the Supreme Pontiff.


1 posted on 10/04/2012 4:23:26 PM PDT by Salvation
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To: All

Saturday, May 19, 2012


2 posted on 10/04/2012 4:24:39 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: All

Preface to Nicola Bux's "Benedict XVI's Reform", by Vittorio Messori

The Preface to Nicola Bux's Benedict XVI's Reform: The Liturgy Between Innovation and Tradition | Vittorio Messori

The “liturgical crisis” that followed the Second Vatican Council caused a schism, with many excommunications latae sententiae; it provoked unease, polemics, suspicions, and reciprocal accusations. And perhaps it was one of the factors—one, I say, not the only—that brought about the hemorrhaging of practicing faithful, even of those who attended Mass only on the major feasts. Well, it might seem strange, but such a tempest has not diminished but, rather, increased my confidence in the Church.

I will try to explain what I mean, speaking in the first person, returning thus to a personal experience. Some would regard this approach as immodest, but others would see it as the simplest way of being clear and to the point. It happens to be the case that despite my age I have only a very slight recollection of the “old” form of the Church’s worship. I grew up in an agnostic household and was educated in secular schools; I discovered the gospel—and began furtively to enter churches as a believer and no longer as a mere tourist—just before the liturgical reform went into force, which for me meant only “the Mass in Italian”.

In sum, I caught the tail-end of history. Only a few months later, I would find the altars reversed and some new kitschy piece of junk made of aluminum or plastic brought in to replace the “triumphalism” of the old altars, often signed by masters, adorned with gold and precious marble. But already for some time I had seen—with surprise, in my neophyte innocence—guitars in the place of organs, the jeans of the assistant pastor showing underneath robes that were intended to give the appearance of “poverty”, “social” preaching, perhaps with some discussion, the abolition of what they called “devotional accretions”, such as making the Sign of the Cross with holy water, kneelers, candles, incense. I even witnessed the occasional disappearance of statues of popular saints; the confessionals, too, were removed, and some, as became the fashion, were transformed into liquor cabinets in designer houses.

Everything was done by clerics, who were incessantly talking about “democracy in the Church”, affirming that this was reclaimed by a “People of God”, whom no one, however, had bothered to consult. The people, you know, are sovereign; they must be respected, indeed, venerated, but only if they accept the views that are dictated by the political, social, or even religious ruling class. If they do not agree with those who have the power to determine the line to be taken, they must be reeducated according to the vision of the triumphant ideology of the moment. For me, who had just knocked at the door of the Church, gladly welcoming stabilitas—which is so attractive and consoling to those who have known only the world’s precariousness— that destruction of a patrimony of millennia took me by surprise and seemed to me more anachronistic than modern.

It seemed to me that the priests were harming their own people, who, as far as I knew, had not asked for any of this, had not organized into committees for reform, had not signed petitions or blocked streets or railways to bring an end to Latin (a “classist language”, but only according to the intellectual demagogues) or to have the priest facing them the whole Mass or to have political chit-chat during the liturgy or to condemn pious practices as alienating, which instead were precious inasmuch as they were a bond with the older generation. There was a revolt on the part of certain groups of faithful—who were immediately silenced, however, and treated by the Catholic media as incorrigibly nostalgic, perhaps a little fascist—united under the motto that came from France: on nous change la réligion, “they are changing our religion.” In other words, although it was pushed by the champions of “democracy”, the liturgical reform (here I am abstracting from the content and am speaking only of the method) was not at all “democratic”. The faithful at that time were not consulted, and the faithful of the past were rejected. Is tradition not perhaps, as has been said, the “democracy of the dead”? Is tradition not letting our brothers who have preceded us speak?

Continue reading "Preface to Nicola Bux's "Benedict XVI's Reform", by Vittorio Messori" »


3 posted on 10/04/2012 4:25:57 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Liturgy Ping!

Should be a good Catholic discussion.


4 posted on 10/04/2012 4:33:25 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

OK

My suggestion:

Use the new cycle of readings, and calendar of saints.

Use the old liturgy.

Bishops shall enforce compliance, particularly with the psalm of the day (which too many “ministers of music” ignore).


5 posted on 10/04/2012 4:42:11 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Salvation

As a deaf person, now Nicola knows how *I* felt when I converted. Now I have to learn different responses thanks to Papa Benedict, and if this is to be understood a third remake altogether. :)

And people keep telling me that the Church is against change? It’s changed more in the 6 years I’ve been there probably more than in the last 40. :)

As a replacement of the Ordo, sure, but I believe the extraordinary form should be retained.


6 posted on 10/04/2012 4:49:59 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: ArrogantBustard

That would be a pretty good compromise.


7 posted on 10/04/2012 4:50:18 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Oddie exaggerates the difficulty, even for newbies, of understanding what’s going on in the Old Rite. It was designed to be understood without being heard, since they didn’t have sound systems in the Old Days. With a bit of preparation, one can readily learn.

But putting the new lectionary 3-year cycle into the Old Rite would be very, very, very foolish.

The 3-year cycle, 150 sets of 3 readings (really 4, since they turned the Gradual into an extended Responsorial Psalm), means 600 different readings that repeat only once every three years.

The genius of the Old Mass was the annually repeating cycle of 2 readings. That’s 100 readings (plus another 30 perhaps for major feast days). After 20 years of devoutly attending Mass, a Catholic could know them all by heart. 600 readings wash over everyone like water off a duck’s back.

I say, put the old cycle of readings into the Novus Ordo. And return to the gradual versicles that are there, in the Novus Ordo, instead of the responsorial psalm, which no one responds to.


8 posted on 10/04/2012 4:51:26 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: ArrogantBustard

I also want the old music — Gregorian chant.

With old hymns too.


9 posted on 10/04/2012 4:52:16 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: JCBreckenridge

As for the sanctoral cycle, again, foolish to put the Novus Ordo cycle into the Old Mass, but yes, update the Old Mass Sanctoral with some of the more recently canonized saints.


10 posted on 10/04/2012 4:54:16 PM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: Salvation

I don’t think there’s much good about the Novus Ordo, but what I did like was the 1965 Missal, which was a translation into the vernacular of the 1962 Missal with a few changes (the Last Gospel had been removed, for example). It was used from 1965 until the Novus Ordo came into use in 1970.

Bring that back and I don’t think there’s a Catholic in the world who would object (except for extremists at either end of the spectrum). It would be a great compromise and, better yet, the translations into most major languages already exist.

Perhaps a few parts of the ordinary in Latin or Greek could be kept in those languages: the Kyrie, the Agnus Dei, the Sanctus, etc. Most people know these things or could learn them easily, and it would tie us to our liturgical and cultural past.

The Old Calendar, with the addition of the new saints, should also be brought back. We need the the different liturgical seasons clearly delimited by the traditional feasts, the Rogation Days, etc.

One of the big problems now in encouraging the 1962 Missal is simply that most current priests don’t have the time (and alas, some don’t have the ability) to learn Latin, so even those who would like to do it, unless they are so devoted they join an order dedicated to nothing but that, can’t realistically be expected to celebrate it.

And the old 12 minute dead-silent or mumbled low mass, which unfortunately was the standard in the US, was an abuse that we don’t want to go back to, and one of the things that made people willing to accept the Novus Ordo.


11 posted on 10/04/2012 4:55:36 PM PDT by livius
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To: ArrogantBustard

I like your plan.


12 posted on 10/04/2012 4:59:00 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Pray for our republic.)
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To: Houghton M.

**600 readings wash over everyone like water off a duck’s back.**

Disagree, because we Catholics are exposed to a greater part of the Bible. We can handle it.


13 posted on 10/04/2012 5:00:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I also want the old music — Gregorian chant.

With old hymns too.

&&
That would be wonderful.


14 posted on 10/04/2012 5:00:42 PM PDT by Bigg Red (Pray for our republic.)
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To: livius

The new translations are basically all the 1965, 1962 missal. As our priest was discussing the changes, another lady and I were following along in her husband’s old missal. The wording was almost identical between the new translations and the older missal.


15 posted on 10/04/2012 5:02:37 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

For the parts that remained the same, they are. But a lot of things changed in 1970 - the new canons (most of which should go away, IMHO, and a couple of which are borderline heretical), the “Responsorial Psalm,” which didn’t exist except as a very brief couple of lines before the Gospel reading, the “Acclamation,” which didn’t exist, etc. A lot of these things were based on faux archaeology popular in Protestant circles in the 1950s and 1960s, where they claimed to have discovered things that the “early Christians” did, with absolutely no evidence. So perfectly legitimate, provable traditional liturgical practices and words that had existed for centuries were thrown out, and strange modern German Protestant fantasies about 2nd Century Christian practice were inserted in their place.

Oh, I forgot; I also don’t like the cycle of readings. We hear very little St Paul anymore, and I think we should bring back the old cycle, although expand it perhaps. Also,we should make sure that we don’t bring back the old abuse where every daily mass was a memorial mass and people heard the same funeral Gospel and Epistle every day, unless there was the feast of a really important saint.

However, you’re right, the few parts of the Mass that didn’t change are now once again translated pretty much the way they were in the 1965 missal.


16 posted on 10/04/2012 5:34:06 PM PDT by livius
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To: Salvation

I agree, but I still don’t get why it would be a big deal for every cathedral to have one old-style Latin Mass a week. I live in NYC and there are many Masses at St. Patrick Cathedral that count for Sunday Mass, beginning one or two on Saturday afternoon and continuing every hour and a half on Sunday. Why not just make one of those old-style Latin? Seems to me it would put an end to much of the fighting without depriving anybody of anything.


17 posted on 10/04/2012 5:57:44 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: Salvation

http://thepracticingcatholic.com/2012/09/26/whats-the-deal-with-the-sign-of-peace/


18 posted on 10/04/2012 6:07:48 PM PDT by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: Salvation

A reasonable compromise would be to have mikes worn and perhaps a rolling display of the prayers both in Latin in English projected roughly where the hymn numbers are. Is it silly? I think the author has a valid point that unlike in better times, the congregation does not know the Latin.

A good step for the Novus Ordo would be to turn the priest toward God, for starters, and add Hail Mary and prayer to St. Michael, and St. John’s Prologue.

As to the calendar, can we have the traditional saints celebrated again? St. George, St. Christopher, St. Lazarus, St. Elijah? Please?


19 posted on 10/04/2012 6:48:56 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Salvation

I had heard a few years ago that he was a fan of kneeling and am glad to see it mentioned again.


20 posted on 10/04/2012 6:50:52 PM PDT by Right Wing Assault (Dick Obama is more inexperienced now than he was before he was elected.)
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To: utahagen

I too would be ever so grateful for one Tridentine Mass available at the cathedral church, per week. Fly-over country must drive for hours to find such a beautiful Holy Sacrifice anywhere, with few dioceses offering one at all and none proficient.

I was received in 2001 and never seen one.


21 posted on 10/04/2012 6:56:51 PM PDT by RitaOK ( VIVA CHRISTO REY)
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To: Salvation

In my opinion, the perfect liturgical blend looks like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q251EywW__M


22 posted on 10/04/2012 7:32:07 PM PDT by Claud
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To: Salvation

Old Rite with New Rite’s 3 year cycle of readings. I can live (happily) with that. I first heard that recommended by a former SSPX priest in 1996!


23 posted on 10/04/2012 9:46:20 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: annalex

“mikes worn and perhaps a rolling display of the prayers both in Latin in English projected roughly where the hymn numbers are. Is it silly? I think the author has a valid point that unlike in better times, the congregation does not know the Latin.”

Then they should learn and we should teach them. I teach Latin to my Grade 8’s so that they do understand what is being said at mass.


24 posted on 10/04/2012 11:34:41 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: Salvation

Except we’re not handling it. Catholics are 100 times less biblically literate than they were under the old rite.


25 posted on 10/05/2012 2:50:31 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: annalex

The congregation did not know the Latin in the old days. The idea that you have to hear everything and follow it word-for-word is a Protestant idea.

Those who cared knew exactly what was happening because they had studied and learned. Those who didn’t care didn’t know nuthin. That part is still true. The difference is that even those who “care” don’t know much.

The idea that the goal is to be able to hear and follow along with the Latin when attending the Traditional Mass is a fallacy that will only lead to misunderstanding it.

It was (and is) the Sacrifice of Christ. It takes place. We are present at it and drawn into it at a much deeper level than knowing every single word. In the Novus Ordo people, presumably hear and understand every single word and they don’t bother to come—from 75% to 25% Mass attendance. Now just how is that a gain?????????


26 posted on 10/05/2012 2:54:56 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: annalex

Those who wanted to could follow the Latin by using Latin-English hand missals. They could not hear every word (none or inadequate sound systems) but they could know exactly what was being said by means of the priest’s and servers’ gestures (not just the bells) and, if they wanted to, follow the English in their missals. But they could also participate in, devoutly and fully, without knowing Latin.

A variety of levels of “following along” were possible and all could be full of devotion.

Today, we can hear every word in a language we supposedly know inside and out and most people sit there letting it wash over them.

So how is that different from the old days when most people could not follow the Latin? There always was a percentage of people who just didn’t much care. That percentage is the same today as it was.

But the difference is that 50% of those who came back then (but didn’t much care) don’t even come today.

So how is that a gain?


27 posted on 10/05/2012 2:59:22 AM PDT by Houghton M.
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To: vladimir998

The 3 years practice is best.


28 posted on 10/05/2012 3:14:48 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Is not the “psalm of the day” what is now the “response psalm” ?

Better use an intro psalm to said first, then the opening hymm right away.


29 posted on 10/05/2012 3:18:48 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: JCBreckenridge
Then they should learn and we should teach them.

Yes; the question is, what should be the teaching aids?

30 posted on 10/05/2012 5:15:50 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Houghton M.
The idea that the goal is to be able to hear and follow along with the Latin when attending the Traditional Mass is a fallacy

No question, there is a contingent that goes to Mass without care; then there is a contingent that wants to be at the Sacrifice of the Mass, understands it with or without the knowledge of Latin and does not need word-by-word supplements of any kind; finally there is a contingent of learners who want to transition from the first group to the second group. For them, not a compromise is needed but learning aids; again, it is no different than the display with the hymnal numbers. To tell them: "learn some Latin then come back" is not the best approach. Neither is "don't attempt to understand the words".

[From your second post to me:] the difference is that 50% of those who came back then (but didn’t much care) don’t even come today

So how is that a gain?

Again, the topic of the article is: what transitional forms of the Mass could be offered for those who wish to attend the Traditional Mass but find the transition too steep, given the realities of today, whether we like these realities or not? I think that the bilingual missals are not sufficient: it is easy to loose your place and then one loses the mental space he is supposed to be in and instead frantically races up and down the missal to re-synchronize. The modern electronic means exist to offer synchronized display for those who need it; operating them should be the job of the altar boys, no different than holding up the Gospel and bringing the vessels.

On the other hand, I disagree with the idea of a compromise in the way the author proposes it: a yet third form of the Mass that is neither Traditional nor Novus Ordo.

I think that the Novus Ordo itself should be evolving toward the Old Mass, not in the spirit of compromise but in the spirit of improvement. It is, after all, an experimental form of liturgy and the experiment should continue since we are apparently not ready to cancel it outright. Hence my second suggestion, to reintroduce elements that were simply cut in the Novus Ordo for no clear reason.

31 posted on 10/05/2012 5:39:45 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: Biggirl

Some “ministers of music” substitute whatever they want for the psalm. It ain’t right.


32 posted on 10/05/2012 6:31:31 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

That is why, if there was any changes, start off with a psalm chanting which go right away into an intro hymm which would match it as best as possible. It would be a balance.


33 posted on 10/05/2012 6:36:36 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: annalex

Rather, combine the very best of both rites. This Pope gets it right. Remember, even though I am past 50, I hardly remember the old mass, I am very much a child of the new mass.


34 posted on 10/05/2012 6:38:36 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Salvation

Didn’t Fr. Fessio already try this, and did not receive huge support from Pope John Paul II or Cardinal Ratzinger?


35 posted on 10/05/2012 11:08:34 AM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: annalex

I was given a latin missal which was very helpful to me.


36 posted on 10/05/2012 12:31:17 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: Salvation

Our Mass is currently a blend of the two and is quite lovely. We use the Adoremus Hymnals. Lots of beautiful old songs in there! The Kyrie, Gloria, Sanctus and Lord’s Prayer are all in Latin. The church is in an older part of downtown KC and homeschool families come from all over the metro to attend Mass there. The choir is magnificent! I don’t ever want to move from this area strictly because of the amazing Mass. I don’t ever want to go back to the hand clapping, back slapping, humorous Masses we’ve attended before. I only want holy and reverent for the rest of my life. I had no idea how incredible it could be.


37 posted on 10/05/2012 1:47:18 PM PDT by samiam1972 ("It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."-Mother Teresa)
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To: Biggirl

Well, how are you going to “combine” them? The priest can be facing God or he can be facing you, — not both. People either kneel at the barrier and receive on the tongue or receive in the hand without kneeling. The consecration is either in Latin or it is in English. Prayer to St. Michael is either said or not said. The Good Friday prayer for the conversion of the Jews is either said or not said. Etc.


38 posted on 10/05/2012 5:25:09 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: JCBreckenridge

A missal is helpful but it is not the only aid feasible without disrupting the Mass. In fact, the reliance on the Missal is itself disruptive because it keeps you nose in the book and your mind anxious no to go out of synch, when you should be looking at the altar.


39 posted on 10/05/2012 5:29:45 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

Seeing as I’m deaf, I found the missal quite helpful. :)


40 posted on 10/05/2012 11:18:47 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: Houghton M.
Except we’re not handling it. Catholics are 100 times less biblically literate than they were under the old rite.

Those not paying attention now, won't pay attention, even in a two year cycle. I like the way it is now, simply because we DO get more Scripture readings, and if the priest is doing his job, an understand of the reading with the homily.

41 posted on 10/06/2012 3:20:33 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: JCBreckenridge

I never said it was not helpful. It is insufficient, even to the deaf.


42 posted on 10/06/2012 7:08:17 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

No, it’s not insufficient. It was enough for me, and I was a convert so I didn’t have the years of experience with it growing up.

If I wanted to worship in front of a screen - I’d go back to my protestant church. No screens.


43 posted on 10/07/2012 12:18:41 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: JCBreckenridge

That is was enough for you does not mean it is sufficient for everyone. Here, someone took the trouble to write an article wishing someone made the Old Mass a bit more accessible. I am sure he, too, has seen a missal.

Protestantism is not defined by screens any more than it is defined by books, chairs, or electricity.


44 posted on 10/07/2012 2:14:09 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

There are better ways to help people learn than to ensure that they never do.

If I, a deaf person can learn to understand the Latin mass, despite having to learn the English rites and then the Latin - then surely they can learn too.

Some people are motivated to learn about their faith - others, not so much.


45 posted on 10/07/2012 4:58:15 PM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: JCBreckenridge

I don’t want to make repetitive posts.

Yes, some learn and others don’t. This is a Catholic Church: the difficulty of following a text in a foreign language from a book when the priest is barely audible and while one is actually trying to get one’s mind on the Sacrifice Mass itself — should not be made into some kind of a rite of admission.


46 posted on 10/07/2012 7:43:18 PM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

**Novus Ordo itself should be evolving toward the Old Mass**

I do think this is going to happen, and, in fact, has already started to happen with the new translations which are more accurate to the original Latin Vulgate.

Next come the readings. I was going to buy one of the NABRE (Revised Edition) until I found out that all had been revised was the Old Testament. When they revise the New Testament perhaps the USCCB will adopt a new lectionary format. I think it will happen, but maybe I’m being too optomistic.


47 posted on 10/07/2012 8:10:11 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: annalex

Thanks for using the term “Sacrifice Mass.”


48 posted on 10/07/2012 8:13:00 PM PDT by thecodont
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To: annalex

Latin shouldn’t be a ‘foreign language’ for Catholics. If they don’t know, then we should be providing classes that they can attend to improve their knowledge of Latin.


49 posted on 10/08/2012 4:46:39 AM PDT by JCBreckenridge (Texas, Texas, Whisky)
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To: Salvation

No, I don’t think you are too optimistic. There is a healthy movement in the Church, and the fact that the true translations have been adopted in English shows that it has reached the episcopate. Unlike in democracies where the governing body changes every four years, the trends in the Church have every chance to flourish over time.


50 posted on 10/08/2012 5:21:53 AM PDT by annalex (fear them not)
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