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Fishwrap’s nutty over the Holy See’s ending of “tropes” during the Agnus Dei
What Does The Prayer Really Say? ^ | 10/14/12 | Fr John Zuhlsdorf

Posted on 10/14/2012 8:03:19 AM PDT by markomalley

I am sure you have heard this at one point or another… perhaps even too often.  Hitherto in many places, during the last stage of preparation before the distribution of Holy Communion, if the work at the altar was going on for a while, the singing of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) would be extended – vamped, in a manner of speaking – by the addition of additional (sometimes even appropriate) Christological titles.  Lamb of God… Prince of Peace… King of Kings… etc.

Over the years, however, I have heard some real howlers inserted.

In any event, that’s all over now and the liberal home-spun liturgy types are not happy.  No, not one little bit.   The Holy See determined that these “tropes”, these additions inserted to lengthen the Lamb of God are right out.

Over at the Fishwrap some of them have a little nutty about the Roman oppression, the “control” they are exerting.   Here is a taste, to add some relish to your reading:

[...]

Several also expressed frustration that the Vatican congregation was apparently issuing directives to bishops’ conferences on the matter.

One liturgist, Viatorian Fr. Mark Francis, [This is the guy who, after Summorum Pontificum, in the pages of The Tablet attacked Pope Benedict and anyone who likes the Extraordinary Form. I recall in particular his condescending assertion that the Pope, unlike Francis himself, "is not a trained liturgist". HERE.] called the changes “another revision to a former way of operating.”

“We’re into this fundamentalist kind of approach,” said Francis, who has previously taught at the Catholic Theological Union in Chicago [Ooooo!  What prestige!] and served in Rome as his congregation’s superior general until July.  [I wonder how they are doing with vocations....]

The changes to the “Lamb of God,” Francis said, are “another example of [the bishops'] trying to maintain the purity of the Roman rite.”  [Imagine such a thing!  Imagine]

“Other than simply being literally faithful to the previous way of doing these things, what does this do for us?” he asked. [Instead of being "literally faithful" we should be "figuratively faithful"! At least I figure that's what that means.] “How does this help our worship? That question is very rarely asked anymore.”

Felician Sr. Judith Kubicki, an associate professor of theology at Fordham University, [The admixture of Jesuits and liturgy is usually volatile.] said she saw the change as “two-pronged,” [Sounds rather warlike, no?] both as a logistical adjustment following the recent changes in the liturgy and as a further signal that the Vatican is concerned about “controlling the text” of the Mass. [WHAT?!? What is this you say?  Imagine! The "Vatican" trying to control the text of the Mass!]

“It’s another example of a need to completely supervise what the prayer text is,” [It is almost as if there is a connection between what we believe and how we pray!] said Kubicki, who also served as president of the North American Academy of Liturgy in 2008. “And if you have these tropes … they’re no longer under supervision.”

[...]

Imagine Rome trying to control the text of the Roman Rite!

Who do they think they are?!?

Those men in the Congregation.  Are they liturgists?!?


TOPICS: Catholic; Worship
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 10/14/2012 8:03:22 AM PDT by markomalley
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To: markomalley

AT our noon Mass, there is a contemporary, upbeat band/choir that plays a lot of protestant music. There are drums, guitars, keyboards etc....none of which I mind, though I am an old fashioned kind when it comes to music in the Mass.

Anyway, when they do the Agnus Dei, it is a very lively tune and the congregation dances and claps to it. I HATE it! But, I can accept that some like it. I use the time to pray and prepare to receive my Lord.


2 posted on 10/14/2012 8:21:28 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: markomalley

I don’t think I’ve ever seen this done, ad libbing the Agnus Dei.


3 posted on 10/14/2012 8:21:56 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Jvette
Anyway, when they do the Agnus Dei, it is a very lively tune and the congregation dances and claps to it. I HATE it! But, I can accept that some like it. I use the time to pray and prepare to receive my Lord.

In my case, I just audibly pray: Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, misere nobis...over and over and over again, timing the dona nobis pacem for when the congregational dancing and singing over Christ's body is done with.

Yes, I have gotten a few stares.

4 posted on 10/14/2012 8:24:45 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: Jvette

I would look for another parish.


5 posted on 10/14/2012 8:33:51 AM PDT by RPTMS
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To: markomalley

I think they sang enough variations or substitutions for “Lamb of God” to allow all the eucharistic ministers time to get situated. At our parish, they start coming up during the sign of peace, but there are often 8 or more, and if the Lamb of God ended early, well we would have to sit in complete silence for a moment or two (the horror).


6 posted on 10/14/2012 8:34:55 AM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: married21
I think they sang enough variations or substitutions for “Lamb of God” to allow all the eucharistic ministers time to get situated. At our parish, they start coming up during the sign of peace, but there are often 8 or more, and if the Lamb of God ended early, well we would have to sit in complete silence for a moment or two (the horror).

Reference GIRM 83:

The Fraction

83. The priest breaks the Eucharistic Bread, assisted, if the case calls for it, by the deacon or a concelebrant. Christ’s gesture of breaking bread at the Last Supper, which gave the entire Eucharistic Action its name in apostolic times, signifies that the many faithful are made one body (1 Cor 10:17) by receiving Communion from the one Bread of Life which is Christ, who died and rose for the salvation of the world. The fraction or breaking of bread is begun after the sign of peace and is carried out with proper reverence, though it should not be unnecessarily prolonged, nor should it be accorded undue importance. This rite is reserved to the priest and the deacon.

The priest breaks the Bread and puts a piece of the host into the chalice to signify the unity of the Body and Blood of the Lord in the work of salvation, namely, of the living and glorious Body of Jesus Christ. The supplication Agnus Dei, is, as a rule, sung by the choir or cantor with the congregation responding; or it is, at least, recited aloud. This invocation accompanies the fraction and, for this reason, may be repeated as many times as necessary until the rite has reached its conclusion, the last time ending with the words dona nobis pacem (grant us peace).

Leaving aside the idea of "eucharistic" ministers, the proper action is to repeat "Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, misere nobis" as often as needed, not to ad lib.

7 posted on 10/14/2012 8:43:43 AM PDT by markomalley (Nothing emboldens the wicked so greatly as the lack of courage on the part of the good -- Leo XIII)
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To: sitetest

You haven’t? In my experience it is usually done with the massive cremation, i.e., the Mass of Creation. “Jesus, Lamb of God...Jesus, Bread of Life...Jesus, Prince of Peace...etc.”


8 posted on 10/14/2012 8:49:52 AM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: Jvette

You need to report that nonsense to the Bishop and if he won’t stop it write a letter to the CDF.


9 posted on 10/14/2012 8:56:28 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: married21
to allow all the eucharistic ministers(sic) time to get situated.

You most likely mean extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion. As Redemptionis Sacramentum reminds us, only a Priest may be referred to as a Eucharistic Minister. People need to stop blurring the distinction between the Ministerial Priesthood of the ordained and the common priesthood of the believer.

1. The Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion

[154.] As has already been recalled, “the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”.[254] Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone. Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon,[255] to whom it belongs therefore to administer Holy Communion to the lay members of Christ’s faithful during the celebration of Mass. In this way their ministerial office in the Church is fully and accurately brought to light, and the sign value of the Sacrament is made complete.

10 posted on 10/14/2012 9:04:07 AM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: markomalley

Ok. Looks like we will be singing “Lamb of God” a few more times. Too bad some folks get their undergarments in such a twist over these things. Perhaps the deal is that if the Liturgy “settled down” into a pattern that left less to local choice, there would not be as much need for full time liturgy coordinators and other liturgists?


11 posted on 10/14/2012 9:08:11 AM PDT by married21 (As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.)
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To: markomalley

You would be drowned out by the “band”.


12 posted on 10/14/2012 9:10:35 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: Jvette

That sort of abuse has led me to entirely abandon the ordinary form — to the point even a funeral Mass is off limits for me.


13 posted on 10/14/2012 9:23:14 AM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

I didn’t thing the dancing and clapping were a problem, just something I personally do not like.

As for the protestant songs, I thought that the priest was the decision maker as to what is sang or not during the Mass.

Our priest loves this band, he asked them to come to our parish after they were run out of a different one.

As for our bishop, well, if I thought there was even a small chance he would care or do something I would write to him about it.


14 posted on 10/14/2012 9:40:30 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: RPTMS

I imagine someday soon I will as it is being slowly but surely taken over by Spanish speakers. In a few years, there will most likely be no English Masses, as there won’t be enough English speakers there to justify it.

In the meantime, I love this parish and am very active in it so I will ride it out til it’s time to go.


15 posted on 10/14/2012 9:42:26 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: steve86

I honestly am not sure what’s abuse and what’s not having come back to the Church just a few years ago. I vaguely remember the Latin Mass from my youth.

I am very much a traditionalist though and until this priest came to our parish, we were considered a very conservative parish.


16 posted on 10/14/2012 10:01:43 AM PDT by Jvette
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To: markomalley

I don’t think that Pinch Sulzberger and the New York Fishwrap have earned the right to tell Catholics what to do.

They are too busy Catholic-bashing, almost every day.


17 posted on 10/14/2012 10:05:01 AM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Unam Sanctam
Dear Unam Sanctum,

I have heard versions of the Agnus Dei that included more words than what is included in the missal, but in these cases, it's abominable, but written down. It is, for better or worse, part of the planned liturgy. It isn't ad libbed, with lines added to fill extra “dead air” time.


sitetest

18 posted on 10/14/2012 10:07:56 AM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: married21

Our parish church liturgy has always been very close to the GIRM (General Instructions of the Roman Missal). However, there have been a few exceptions. Now, our Bishop Gerald Barns, not known for being a Traditional Bishop, just gave all the pastors their marching orders which have come down from the Vatican.

A priest or deacon must remove the Holy Communion ciborium(s) from the tabernacle and return it to same. No Extraordinary Ministers can do that.

Extraordinary Ministers are NOT to come on to the altar and stand behind the priest during the Agnus Dei. All EMs are to remain at the foot of the altar and never be on the altar before the priest takes Holy Communion.

There are some other changes as well, such as to where the priest’s chair is to be placed and just who gets to process in and out of Mass with the priest.

For our parish, the changes required will not be all that significant. For the parish next door, which dresses the EMs up in albs and has them march down the aisle with the priest and sit on the altar during the Mass as well as do a few other things, I can just hear the hoots and hollering. In that parish, at the recitation of the Our Father, the pastor invites all of the children at Mass to come up onto the altar. It will be interesting to see how many of these pastors follow the Bishop’s directives.


19 posted on 10/14/2012 11:13:16 AM PDT by CdMGuy
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To: Jvette

I am no theologian or expert on liturgical affairs but it seems to me that exuberant display of faith — like singing and dancing — can have a valid place in worship, as we see in the scriptures, JUST NOT PROPERLY IN THE MASS. I admire the Protestants and others who sincerely engage in what you might call active worship but then they don’t have a Real Presence thing going on there. If at some point in the early Mass dancing and singing was included — well, they could make mistakes then, too. Reverence and solemn focus on the Holy Eucharist is supreme then or now..


20 posted on 10/14/2012 12:53:04 PM PDT by steve86 (Acerbic by nature not nurture TM)
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To: sitetest

“I have heard versions of the Agnus Dei that included more words than what is included in the missal, but in these cases, it’s abominable, but written down. It is, for better or worse, part of the planned liturgy. It isn’t ad libbed, with lines added to fill extra “dead air” time.”

What type of stuff are they adding?


21 posted on 10/14/2012 1:53:45 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: sitetest

I have heard the Prince of Peace one added.

This is almost as good as losing the “Christ has died, Christ has risen, Christ will come again.” that OCP dreamed up.

May OCP dreamed up these extra verses to the Agnus Dei too. Wouldn’t surprise me one bit.

Getting the hand slapped by the Pope, aren’t they?


22 posted on 10/14/2012 2:03:59 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: markomalley

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. We’ve never done this in the Spanish liturgy, but it didn’t bother me when I went to English Mass. However, if the Head Office says not to do it, okay.


23 posted on 10/14/2012 2:07:45 PM PDT by Tax-chick (I am relentlessly reasonable. Mrs. Don-o said so.)
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To: Salvation

Maybr OCP

Getting their hand

My mind was moving faster than my fingers were! LOL!


24 posted on 10/14/2012 2:09:23 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Maybe OCP

Getting their hand

My mind was moving faster than my fingers were! LOL!


25 posted on 10/14/2012 2:09:33 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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