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The acceptance of the book of Revelation {ecumenical}
Religious Tolerance ^ | 2009 | rt

Posted on 10/15/2012 2:03:43 AM PDT by Cronos

During the 1st century CE, Judaism was composed of about 24 separate religious groups. Some of these were the Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes, various groups within the Christian movement, followers of John the Baptist, etc. One which had a strong political agenda was the Zealot party. The Zealots taught that a military-political Messiah would soon appear, as prophesized in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He would conquer the world, and rule for a thousand years from Jerusalem.

This concept of millennialism was promoted during the second century CE, by Montanus, a recent convert to Christianity. He prophesized that the New Jerusalem would shortly descend out of the clouds and land in a town called Phrygia. He set a date for the event, thus becoming one of the first Christians to predict when the end of the world would occur. His teachings were rejected by the rest of the Church. At the Synod of Iconium in 230 CE all baptisms performed by the Montanus sect were declared invalid. The Council of Constantinople in 380 CE went further, and declared millennialism to be a heresy.

the Church was slow to accept Revelation as scripture. Origen, an early Christian theologian, used the term antilegomena to describe those books -- including Hebrews, James 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John and Revelation -- whose inclusion in the official canon of the Bible was actively disputed. In the fourth century CE, when the canon of the Bible was assembled from among the approximately 50 gospels and hundreds of epistles then in use by the Christian movement, Revelation was only reluctantly included. To this day, Orthodox churches do not use Revelation for scripture readings during worship.

Martin Luther downgraded the significance of Revelation. It portrays God as inflicting horrendous punishments on humanity -- a concept that is today sometimes called "Ambush Theology." Luther concluded that he could not readily harmonize the God described in Revelation with the God to whom Jesus prayed to as Abba. When Luther translated the Bible into the German language, he downgraded Revelation by relegating it to an appendix.


TOPICS: Catholic; Ecumenism; History; Orthodox Christian
KEYWORDS:
The Alogi sect (who rejected the doctrine of the logos in AD 200) denied the authenticity of the book of the Apocalypse

They stated that this was written by a Gnostic heretic called Cerinthus (1st century, contemporary of the Apostle John)

The Apocalypse was excluded by most Syriac Churches early on -- from the 4th century at least

Eusebius wrote "The Apocalypse is by some accepted among the canonical books but by others rejected" (Church History III.25).

and this was not included in the Biblical canon of St. Cyril of Jerusalem

1 posted on 10/15/2012 2:03:50 AM PDT by Cronos
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To: Cronos

I think we’re living in the book of REVELATION now.


2 posted on 10/15/2012 2:16:50 AM PDT by Twinkie (HUSSEIN OBAMA GOTTA GO!!!)
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To: All
The seven heads of the beast are the first seven emperors: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius,Nero, Vespasian, Titus

The seventh, revelation says " his reign will be short" - Titus' reign was 2 years (AD 79 to 81).

The eight, Domitian is the one who started the second persecutions of Christians -- the book says "And the beast which was and is not: the same also is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into destruction". -- because many thought Domitian was Nero returned -- Juvenal, a Roman author (pagan) called Domitian a second Nero calvus Nero

3 posted on 10/15/2012 2:48:07 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Twinkie

well, people have believed that since the 2nd century. Probably the persecutions of Nero and then Domitian and then the Macrianii were instrumental in that — after all it did look like the end of the world to them


4 posted on 10/15/2012 2:53:14 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

Well I have news for them. A lot of the prophecies are repeated by different holy men throughout the bible. For instance there are around 100 prophecies that predicted that the Messiah would be born and about 200 that He will return. These prophesies were foretold by different holy men at different places and times throughout history. Revelation is one of those books where many of the prophesies within it were foretold by holy men such as Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, and the Apostles long before John had the vision on Patmos when he was up in age. The creatures described by Ezekiel and Daniel match that seen by John in his vision. For this reason I believe Revelation should be included.


5 posted on 10/15/2012 3:16:37 AM PDT by jsanders2001
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To: Cronos

Irvin Baxter, of the End Time program on TBN makes a pretty good case for it truly being the end time. Some time it’s gonna be, if not now, WHEN? It IS time; but not for despair.


6 posted on 10/15/2012 4:40:25 AM PDT by Twinkie (HUSSEIN OBAMA GOTTA GO!!!)
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To: Cronos
"The seven heads of the beast are the first seven emperors: Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius,Nero, Vespasian, Titus"

I believe there were three emperors not mentioned here between Nero and Vespasian: Galba, Otho and Vitelius.

7 posted on 10/15/2012 5:00:52 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

You’re right, but those guys only sat on the throne for a few months apiece, and it was a time of general upheaval and civil war. It wouldn’t have been surprising for a 1st century author to leave them out of a symbolic list like this.


8 posted on 10/15/2012 5:46:53 AM PDT by Claud
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To: circlecity

well, they were there for a few months each in the time between AD 68 and 69 (the year of the 5 emperors)


9 posted on 10/15/2012 6:29:07 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos; Claud

In most other instances I would be inclined to agree with you but with regard to prophecy I think these other three emperors (inconsequential as they were) cause real problems for the Roman emperors theory of the heads of the dragon. I am not discarding it, rather, like other prophecies of Revelation I put various interpretations in my back pocket while I wait for the Holy Spirit or historical revelation to open my eyes, ears and heart to the correct interpretation. In the meantime I try to avoid getting caught up in the “newspaper” exegesis I see so many engage in.


10 posted on 10/15/2012 7:11:02 AM PDT by circlecity
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To: Cronos
The Council of Constantinople in 380 CE went further, and declared millennialism to be a heresy.

And this is one condemnation that worked. From that day to this there have been no millenialists in the Catholic Church--neither on the right or the left. There is every other kind of deviation imaginable (on both sides of the spectrum) but the Catholic Church is 110% free of millenialism of any kind. It is opposed by liberals, conservatives, radicals, and reactionaries. No faction of any ancient liturgical church wants any troublesome messiah mucking things up.

It's a pity that the Church can't rid itself of other heresies as completely and as successfully as it has of millenialism.

11 posted on 10/15/2012 9:21:42 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Cronos

“Martin Luther downgraded the significance of Revelation. It portrays God as inflicting horrendous punishments on humanity — a concept that is today sometimes called ‘Ambush Theology.’”

The Book of the Apocalypse is the Word of God, and so Luther had no authority to downgrade it. Revelation 9:21 states:”Nor did they repent of their murders”. Does this not describe the obstinate defense of abortion we have seen for decades? When a world unrepentantly commits the gravest sins, does not the final door, the door of God’s Justice have to open at some point? I’m not sure God will so much inflict punishment as get out of the way and permit countries who don’t respect human life to inflict it upon each other. Why would that be God’s fault? Martin Luther was probably a manic-depressive. His fear of damnation is probably what had him searching the Scriptures to find a way he could say he was saved once and for all. Sorry if I offend others, but I say throw his errors out, not the Book of Revelation.


12 posted on 10/15/2012 10:45:20 AM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: MDLION

question — why do you say the Book of the Apocalypse is canonical? It was disputed by many and even today the Ethiopian Orthodox (an Oriental Church, not Eastern Orthodox) pretty much reject it.


13 posted on 10/15/2012 11:42:10 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
First council of constantinople (AD 381)
Canon 5 Those who from heresy turn to orthodoxy, and to the portion of those who are being saved, we receive according to the following method and custom: Arians, and Macedonians, and Sabbatians, and Novatians, who call themselves Cathari or Aristori, and Quarto-decimans or Tetradites, and Apollinarians, we receive, upon their giving a written renunciation [of their errors] and anathematize every heresy which is not in accordance with the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God. Thereupon, they are first sealed or anointed with the holy oil upon the forehead, eyes, nostrils, mouth, and ears; and when we seal them, we say, The Seal of the gift of the Holy Ghost.

But Eunomians, who are baptized with only one immersion, and Montanists, who are here called Phrygians, and Sabellians, who teach the identity of Father and Son, and do sundry other mischievous things, and [the partisans of] all other heresies— for there are many such here, particularly among those who come from the country of the Galatians:— all these, when they desire to turn to orthodoxy, we receive as heathen. On the first day we make them Christians; on the second, catechumens; on the third, we exorcise them by breathing thrice in their face and ears; and thus we instruct them and oblige them to spend some time in the Church, and to hear the Scriptures; and then we baptize them.


14 posted on 10/15/2012 11:50:18 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Augustine
St. Augustine was for a time, as he himself testifies (City of God XX.7), a pronounced champion of millenarianism; but he places the millennium after the universal resurrection and regards it in a more spiritual light (Sermo, CCLIX). When, however, he accepted the doctrine of only one universal resurrection and a final judgment immediately following, he could no longer cling to the principal tenet of early chiliasm. St. Augustine finally held to the conviction that there will be no millennium. The struggle between Christ and His saints on the one hand and the wicked world and Satan on the other, is waged in the Church on earth; so the great Doctor describes it in his work De Civitate Dei. In the same book he gives us an allegorical explanation of Chapter 20 of the Apocalypse. The first resurrection, of which this chapter treats, he tells us, refers to the spiritual rebirth in baptism; the sabbath of one thousand years after the six thousand years of history is the whole of eternal life — or in other words, the number one thousand is intended to express perfection, and the last space of one thousand years must be understood as referring to the end of the world; at all events, the kingdom of Christ, of which the Apocalypse speaks, can only be applied to the Church (City of God XX.5-7). This explanation of the illustrious Doctor was adopted by succeeding Western theologians, and millenarianism in its earlier shape no longer received support.

15 posted on 10/15/2012 11:54:39 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

The millenium was rejected for one and only one reason: the evil Rome (which was to have been destroyed) converted to chrstianity, and it could no longer play its role as the villain to be destroyed. Thus the “messiah” and the “messianic kingdom” were “spiritualized” beyond recognition, and (strangely) this is the one and only heresy which has never re-entered the Catholic Church because both Left and Right don’t want any messiah mucking things up for them.


16 posted on 10/15/2012 12:30:20 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: circlecity; Cronos

Fair enough—it’s certainly debatable. I’m agnostic on the theory, but you’re right to avoid the newspaper exegesis.


17 posted on 10/15/2012 12:56:31 PM PDT by Claud
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To: Cronos

I believe the Holy Spirit has guided the Catholic Church to know which books are inspired and which aren’t, or at least aren’t inerrant. What other churches say doesn’t qualify with me as the final authority. I also have no problem believing that God would want the final book of the Bible to both recap history and give believers a preview, admittedly difficult to fully understand, of how He will bring history to a conclusion.


18 posted on 10/15/2012 1:18:25 PM PDT by MDLION ("Trust in the Lord with all your heart" -Proverbs 3:5)
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To: Cronos

666, THE ANTI-CHRIST:


Of course, the name Nero adds up to ‘666’ in Greek.
But there is more

[Dt 17:15-17] “He whom you set over you as king must be your kinsman....But he shall not have a great number of horses;
nor shall he make his people go aback again to Egypt to acquire them, against the Lords’ warning that you must never go
back that way again. Neither shall he have a great number of wives, lest his heart be estranged, nor shall he accumulate
a vast amount of silver and gold.”

So there are at least 3 major things a king must never do:
1) great number of horses -——————war chariots/large army.
2) great number of wives -——————worship false idols/gods
3) accumulate vast amt. gold/silver——gold/silver—> greed;

King Solomon was a prototype of a great King who had gone bad of which the entirety of 1 Kgs Chps 10&11 detail very nicely:
[1Kgs Chps 10 &11]

GREAT # HORSES: LARGE ARMY
[1 Kgs 10:26] “Solomon collected chariots and drivers; he had one thousand four hundred chariots and twelve thousand drivers.”

GREAT # WIVES: WORSHIP FALSE IDOLS/GODS
[1 Kgs 11:1] “King Solomon loved many foreign women besides the daughter of Pharaoh, from nations which the Lord had forbidden
the Israelites to intermarry, “because” he said “they will turn your hearts to their gods”. But Solomon fell in love
with them. He had several hundred wives of princely rank and three hundred concubines, and his wives turned his heart.”

ACCUMULATE VAST AMT. GOLD/SILVER: GREED
[1 Kgs 10:14] “The gold that Solomon had received each year weighed six hundred and sixty-six gold talents.” (666 and listed first within 1 Kings 10&11)

666 WITHIN REVELATION


[Rev 13: 17-18]
“so that no one may buy or sell unless he has the mark , that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name.
This calls for wisdom: let him who has understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number, its
number is six hundred sixty-six.”

Look at the above quote, ‘this calls for wisdom’. ‘WISDOM’ is a reference to Solomon(Solomon was renowned for and prayed for wisdom) in [1Kgs Chps 10 &11] who
was a prototype for a king who went bad and whom in [1 Kgs 10:14] taxed his people 666 talents of gold per year. So it would seem that the beast or Anti-Christ
is typically a national or even a larger world stage figure(through conquest) with large armies, vast amt. of gold/silver or greed, and who is against(anti) Christianity
and/or worships false gods. This certainly applies to Nero. Moreover, this figures within the 20th century with Hitler, Stalin , Pol-Pot, and Mao.
Which are all anti-christs leading up to the final anti-christ of the end times. So thus, the general and precise meaning of what John and Revelation are getting at.
Consequently, what John wrote about in Revelations and 666 is not really about counting up letters in a name, that is rather an insignificant part.


19 posted on 10/15/2012 4:51:55 PM PDT by RBStealth
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To: RBStealth

well, don’t forget that Napoleon was also called the anti-Christ and Genghis Khan and Timur-e-Lang and Mahmud of Ghazni killed probably more people in percentage terms than Hitler or Stalin or even Mao


20 posted on 10/15/2012 10:28:05 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Neither has Arianiam or Donatism or Marcionism or Montanism... it’s not the one and only


21 posted on 10/15/2012 10:33:42 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

onedurful.


22 posted on 10/15/2012 10:52:32 PM PDT by RBStealth
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To: RBStealth
I'm just pointing out how we are saying "oh, so many bad people", when in past times there were also "so many bad people"

Case in point is the year 430 AD -- Attila, Alaric, Vandals, Huns, Goths, Heruli, Angles, Jutes, etc. all attacking the Empire. Must have seemed like the end of times

Or in the 10th century -- the end of a 1000 years, you have Magyar attacks, Saracen attacks (the Saracens had conquered Spain and Sicily and even parts of southern Italy

23 posted on 10/16/2012 12:26:24 AM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos

you are legend.


24 posted on 10/16/2012 10:39:47 AM PDT by RBStealth
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To: RBStealth

ok. it’s just that we think we’re living in the end-times when in comparison to things that happened in 430 AD, in 1452, the 9th and 10th century, or in eastern europe from 1939-1956, this looks like a cakewalk..


25 posted on 10/20/2012 11:11:55 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Twinkie
Ya' think ?
26 posted on 10/20/2012 11:19:52 PM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple. Fight ... or Die !)
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To: RBStealth
Read this. the name of Latium,DIV
27 posted on 10/21/2012 12:52:02 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple. Fight ... or Die !)
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To: RBStealth

28 posted on 10/21/2012 1:17:56 AM PDT by Yosemitest (It's simple. Fight ... or Die !)
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To: Cronos

Dude! Your Catholic right! Yet you dont know what your talking about yet you want to teach others? and express your opinions. You couldnt even mention Sennarcherib and Nebuchadnazzar from the bible when it was appropriate to me. These times in Catholic Prophecy: Bible and Catholic saints prophecy agree that these times are whats known as the little chastisement, although we wont consider it little, with the Big chastisement being the second coming.

Try reading some of the below,all of which carry book reviews by me:
http://www.amazon.com/Trial-Tribulation-Triumph-Before-Antichrist/dp/1882972732/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.com/Triumph-Power-Glory-Catholic-Church/dp/0761516042/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.com/Coming-Soon-Unlocking-Revelation-Applying/dp/193101826X/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.com/Prophets-Times-Rev-Gerald-Culleton/dp/0895550504/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.com/Catholic-Prophecy-The-Coming-Chastisement/dp/0895550156/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

http://www.amazon.com/Warning-West-Aleksandr-Solzhenitsyn/dp/0374513341/ref=cm_cr-mr-title

Please I dont wish any further correspondance nor do I wish to further enlighten you. 9 times out of 10 my comments are addressed to ‘none’, I addressed mine to your name the article poster, my mistake.
Reading is the path: The Bible, Prophecy and History. Good day.


29 posted on 10/21/2012 8:32:04 AM PDT by RBStealth
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To: Cronos

One last thing:

http://www.markmallett.com/blog/


30 posted on 10/21/2012 8:56:09 AM PDT by RBStealth
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To: RBStealth
Sorry, but those links are sheer speculation. The incidents in the book of Apocalypse clearly indicate Nero's time.

I don't want to waste any more time enlightening you, so do stop. thanks

31 posted on 10/21/2012 11:06:28 PM PDT by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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