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The Tribulation's Purpose vs. The Church's Nature (Dispensational Caucus)
GracethruFaith.com ^ | October 13, 2012 | Jack Kelley

Posted on 10/15/2012 5:14:49 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta

Therefore keep watch because you do not know the day or the hour. (Matt. 25:13)

Those who shy away from the study of prophecy are fond of quoting the above verse as their justification. But earlier in the same passage, the Lord had admonished all who read His words of prophecy to understand them (Matt 24:15). In addition the Apostle Paul wrote that the events leading up to the end of the age should not take believers by surprise (1 Thes. 5:4) implying that we should be familiar with them.

Since the Bible cannot contradict itself, Matt. 24:15 must have been aimed at a different audience than Matt. 25:13. And sure enough, a closer look reveals that both the implied timing and the intended audience of the two Matthew passages are different. Matt. 24:15 was intended for everyone who would ever read the passage, but in Matt 25:13 the Lord was only speaking to people remaining on Earth at His Second Coming. We know this because it follows Matt. 24:30 which describes the 2nd Coming. Matt. 24:36-37 confirms the context to be the 2nd Coming, as does Matt. 25:1. Of course in 1 Thes 5:4 Paul was addressing the church, who will not be on Earth at the 2nd Coming, but in the presence of the Father (1 Thes. 3:13).

What both the Lord (Matt.24:15) and Paul (1 Thes. 5:4) were saying is that while we won’t know the exact timing of things, we should understand the sequence of events leading up to the Day of the Lord. And perhaps no event in the sequence is more controversial than the Rapture of the Church, especially as it relates to the Great Tribulation.

It seems to me that the first thing we should do in trying to obey the Lord’s commandment to understand all this is to clarify two things, 1) the purpose of the Great Tribulation, 2) the nature of the Church.

The Purpose of the Great Tribulation

The phrase Great Tribulation makes reference to a specific event, not a general condition. While the Lord warned the disciples that they and we would experience tribulation as a general condition in this world (John 16:33), He clearly identified the Great Tribulation as having a specific beginning and ending. It will begin when the abomination that causes desolation prophesied by Daniel is erected in the Temple (in the middle of the last 7 years of history) and will end just prior to the Lord’s return, three and one half years later (Daniel 9:24-27 & Matt. 24:29-30).

The Great Tribulation is primarily Jewish in its focus. In fact, it was referred to as the Time of Jacob’s Trouble until the Lord coined the phrase Great Tribulation in Matt 24:21. In doing so , He said it would be a time of unparalleled distress, unique in the history of the world.

Jeremiah 30:3-11 gives us the clearest definition of it’s overall purpose. Let’s read it.

The days are coming,’ declares the LORD, ‘when I will bring my people Israel and Judah back from captivity and restore them to the land I gave their forefathers to possess,’ says the LORD.”

These are the words the LORD spoke concerning Israel and Judah: “This is what the LORD says: ” ‘Cries of fear are heard—terror, not peace. Ask and see: Can a man bear children? Then why do I see every strong man with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor, every face turned deathly pale?"

"How awful that day will be! None will be like it. It will be a time of trouble for Jacob, but he will be saved out of it."

” ‘In that day,’ declares the LORD Almighty, ‘I will break the yoke off their necks and will tear off their bonds; no longer will foreigners enslave them. Instead, they will serve the LORD their God and David their king, whom I will raise up for them."

” ‘So do not fear, O Jacob my servant; do not be dismayed, O Israel,’ declares the LORD. ‘I will surely save you out of a distant place, your descendants from the land of their exile. Jacob will again have peace and security, and no one will make him afraid."

"I am with you and will save you,’declares the LORD. ‘Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished."

In this passage the event is foretold, its purpose explained, and the timing is made clear. Let’s take the timing first. According to verse 3 it will take place after Israel and Judah are re-gathered in the land as one nation, and verse 9 says it will result in David becoming their King again.

There have been two re-gatherings since the passage was written, but the first, beginning in 535 BC, didn’t result in David becoming Israel’s King. (In fact, from about 600 BC to this day they have had no legitimate king at all.)

The second re-gathering began in 1948 AD and continues to this day. Though the population of Israel keeps growing, so do the Jewish populations of all the nations to which the Jews have been scattered, and there are still about as many Jews outside Israel than there are in the land. All that will soon change as the Lord calls all His people to return to their Promised Land following His victory in the Battle of Ezekiel 38-39. The second re-gathering is the one that will lead to the fulfillment of Jeremiah 30:3-11. Isaiah foretold that the second re-gathering would put an end to the contention between Israel and Judah (Isaiah 11:11-13), and Ezekiel 37:15-25 confirms that sometime after this reunion David will be their King.

Now for its purpose. “Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.” (Jere. 30:11)

The idea is that Israel has to be purified in preparation for the Kingdom Age God promised them, and the nations who rejected the Messiah and persecuted His people must be destroyed.

So the purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold; discipline (purify) the people of Israel, and completely destroy the nations to which they had been scattered.

The Nature of the Church

According to Paul’s Letter to the Ephesians, the church is nothing less than a new race of mankind, coming from among both Jews and Gentiles but sharing a destiny with neither. (Ephe. 2:15-16)

The problem had always been that God could never dwell for long in the midst of His creation. Our sins always eventually drove Him away. At the cross, He reconciled all things to himself, things in heaven and on earth (Col 1:19-20). This meant that He was now at peace with His creation for the first time since the Fall of Man. He accomplished this by paying the price for all the sins of mankind. Now, for anyone who would accept it, a full pardon for behavior past, present and future was available, free for the asking.

Accepting this pardon qualifies any person, young or old, Jew or Gentile, good or bad, to become a new creation. When we do it permits God to look upon us as if we are without sin altogether; and in fact as if we had never sinned to begin with. It also requires the division of mankind into three groups: Jew, Gentile and Church (1 Cor. 10:32). No longer being either Jew or Gentile (Galatians 3:26-28) means God’s purpose is not served by having us present in the Great Tribulation.

It’s critical that we understand God’s perspective in this because it’s substantially different from ours. To Him, the church is without sin, holy and blameless, and has been since the cross (Ephes. 5:25-27). Whatever sins we as individuals have committed (or will commit) have been forgiven (Colossians 2:13-14) and it’s as if they never happened (2 Cor 5:17). At the cross, the church became as righteous as God Himself (2 Cor 5:21), having been made perfect forever (Hebr. 10:12-14). Because of the cross God has a people with whom He can live in peace. No further purification is necessary.

What’s The Point?

Therefore, no purpose is served by having the Church endure the Great Tribulation. Remember, the Church is a body spanning 40 generations of human life. If we were not all made perfect at the cross, how could the suffering of the final generation of believers serve to purify all those who have preceded us? All the generations of the Church have died in hope of spending eternity with the Lord as the Bible promises us. Is it only ours who will receive this promise and then only after sharing in Israel’s purification? Of course not.

In Israel’s case it’s a different matter. The past generations who rejected their Messiah are lost. The last generation’s purification through the Great Tribulation won’t save those who have gone before. It’s intended to finally open their eyes and hearts to Jesus so that a remnant of God’s chosen people can be preserved. (Zech. 12:10-13)

And as we’ve seen, during the Great Tribulation God’s focus will be on Israel and His focus is always either Israel or the Church, never both at once. (This was explained by James in Acts 15:12-18 and by Paul in Romans 11:25-27.) If you take the view, as I do, that the Battle of Ezekiel 38 occurs before the Great Tribulation, and realize that one outcome of that battle is to turn Israel back to God, (Ezek. 39:28-29) then you know the church’s days on Earth have to end at the same time. This is what makes the fact that Israel exists again an important sign that the end is near.

In Summary

Of course the Scriptures promise that the Church won’t be present on Earth for the Great Tribulation and we’ve covered these promises in detail in other studies on the Rapture. My intent in this study is not to review them but rather to demonstrate that the two-fold purpose of the Great Tribulation is to discipline Israel and completely destroy the unbelieving nations, and to show that the Church has no part in either. Therefore our presence on Earth during that period would serve no purpose and in fact would be in direct opposition to our nature as God sees us.

It’s also in direct opposition to His nature as revealed in the Bible. The basis of Abraham’s negotiation with God concerning the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was that God could not destroy the righteous with the wicked (Genesis 18:23-25). And Peter revealed how history teaches us that God knows how to rescue godly men from trial while holding the unrighteous for the day of judgment (1 Peter 2:4-9). As John did in Rev. 3:10, Peter used the Greek preposition “ek” in the phrase translated from (out of) trial. It means to keep something out of the time, place, or cause of an event. By using that preposition Peter and John were confirming that God knows how to remove us from the time, place, and cause of the coming judgment before unleashing it upon the world. For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thes. 5:9). You can almost hear the footsteps of the Messiah. 10-13-12


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 10/15/2012 5:14:55 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta
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To: HushTX; righttackle44; patriot preacher; FrdmLvr; caww; bareford101; fishtank; Shelayne; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 10/15/2012 5:16:13 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Good one.

Many good points made here, the first being the most important because is is the Gospel of the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: we, the church, have been washed from ALL of our sins by the blood of Jesus and stand righteous before God, not by our own good works or righteousness but by His good work and righteous. Therefore, my righteousness is a gift from God (Romans 5:17). There's nothing more for me to do. I AM FREE! IT IS FINISHED!

Another point made here is also the theme of II Thessalonians: to COMFORT the church - they need not be afraid of the coming Day of Wrath. It's kind of funny to me in a way how some Christians almost seem to want to go through the seven-year Tribulation.

You know, there's two parts to this tribulation period. In Matthew 24, Jesus called the first part "the beginning of sorrows" and the last part "the end...great tribulation." What's funny is some Christians think that they'll be able to get through the first part ("not the great tribulation yet"). According to Revelation 6:8 and 9:15, HALF of the whole world is DEAD by the end of the first 3 1/2 years (the beginning of sorrows). And except for the remnant of Israel hiding in the mountains (probably Petra in Jordan) the rest of the world is dead by the end of the seven years. As the author indicates, this is not redemptive work, this is God's judgment.

The miraculous salvation and protection of (part of) Israel during "Jacob's trouble" is another fascinating theme.

3 posted on 10/15/2012 5:51:58 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Excellent.

Thank you.


4 posted on 10/15/2012 6:18:59 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Excellent.

Thank you.


5 posted on 10/15/2012 6:18:59 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: PapaNew
Another point made here is also the theme of II Thessalonians: to COMFORT the church - they need not be afraid of the coming Day of Wrath. It's kind of funny to me in a way how some Christians almost seem to want to go through the seven-year Tribulation.

While through the New Covenant the churches have seen tribulation of various levels, the constituents (regenerated believer-disciples of The Anointed One) of His Body will not see corruption, will be withdrawn when the Holy Ghost, He that restrainedth, is taken out of the way prior to the final tribulation. The mature spiritual man knows this. The ones gaining maturity may not appreciate it fully, but should be instructed in the doctrine from the beginning of their overall life of discipleship. In the doctrine of the last things, this great and awful judgment will not be wreaked by The God on His own spiritual children. Praise God for his benefits! Just agreeing --

6 posted on 10/15/2012 7:42:11 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

Define the “Great Tribulation”. Do you consider it to be just the 7 bowls of wrath, or does start earlier?


7 posted on 10/15/2012 8:25:30 AM PDT by aimhigh
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To: aimhigh
Based on Scripture, the Tribulation period is seven years in length, beginning when Jesus Christ opens the first seal of judgment in Revelation 6:2.

The last three and a half years are the worst, but the Scriptures indicate that the time of God's judgment on this earth is seven years.

8 posted on 10/15/2012 8:37:26 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
So the purpose of the Great Tribulation is twofold; discipline (purify) the people of Israel, and completely destroy the nations to which they had been scattered.

BTW, another good passage that explains six reasons in Israel and the world for the pre-crucifixion diaspora as well as the tribulation is found in Daniel 9:24:

Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
[1]to finish the transgression,
[2]and to make an end of sins,
[3]and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
[4]and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
[5]and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
[6]and to anoint the most Holy.

9 posted on 10/15/2012 9:45:46 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: PapaNew
Exactly, PapaNew.

God promised Israel these six things, and He will keep that promise and accomplish all of them during the Tribulation.

10 posted on 10/15/2012 9:49:50 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
“Though I completely destroy all the nations among which I scatter you, I will not completely destroy you. I will discipline you but only with justice; I will not let you go entirely unpunished.” (Jere. 30:11)

People ask: Where is America in End Times ?

This verse lays it out clearly.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
11 posted on 10/15/2012 10:00:24 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
When we do [accept His free pardon] it permits God to look upon us as if we are without sin altogether; and in fact as if we had never sinned to begin with.

Another wonder of the Gospel of God's Grace is that although many Christians hold on to some form of their own righteousness, not knowing or accepting their total freedom from the law, their death to sin, and the free gift of righteousness, they are righteous anyway (their faith in Christ the Savior saves them regardless) and will go up with us to meet the Lord in the air.

12 posted on 10/15/2012 10:00:34 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: PapaNew
Many good points made here, the first being the most important because is is the Gospel of the Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ: we, the church, have been washed from ALL of our sins by the blood of Jesus and stand righteous before God, not by our own good works or righteousness but by His good work and righteous. Therefore, my righteousness is a gift from God (Romans 5:17). There's nothing more for me to do. I AM FREE! IT IS FINISHED!

And because of this, we can be ASSURED of our salvation. If left up to our own works in any way, we could never have that assurance, because then we wouldn't know how much (works) is enough. It's clearly there in the Bible, God's breathed Word.
13 posted on 10/15/2012 10:15:00 AM PDT by crosshairs (America: Once the land of the free. Still the home of the brave.)
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
the Battle of Ezekiel 38 occurs before the Great Tribulation, and realize that one outcome of that battle is to turn Israel back to God, (Ezek. 39:28-29) then you know the church’s days on Earth have to end at the same time. This is what makes the fact that Israel exists again an important sign that the end is near.

I think not only is the battle of Ezekiel 38 & 39 before the Great Tribulation (the last 3 1/2 years) but may very well be the kickoff to the whole seven-year enchilada so to speak. After studying Ezekiel 38 & 39 and Revelation, I believe that sometime around the time of this battle is when the rapture of the church takes place and the tribulation begins.

Ezekiel 39:9 indicates a seven-year period after the war and 39:22 says, So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day and forward. This seems to map with Revelation Chapter Seven (part of the sixth seal) when 144,000 of Israel are "sealed" (saved) after the rapture of the church (Rev 4:1) and after "the fourth part of the earth" is killed (Rev 6:8). (I never thought of this until now, but maybe the battle of Ezekiel 38 & 39 is included in the fourth seal when 1/4 of the world is slaughtered - interesting thought.)

14 posted on 10/15/2012 10:31:19 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: UriĀ’el-2012

LOL!! You nailed it, Uri’el!


15 posted on 10/15/2012 10:46:21 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: PapaNew
Very well said, PapaNew!

I believe that it is very possible that it will be the Ezekiel 38/39 war that causes the world to be in the right condition to go along with the seven-year "peace" covenant that ushers in the Antichrist. And, I also believe that the rebuilding of the Temple will be part of that "covenant with death", as God calls it, and that is what will cause Israel to agree to the treaty.

I've told this story before, but it's quite relevant to the ramifications of this covenant that will be orchestrated by the Antichrist.

A well-known pastor, who travels to Israel frequently, had gone there a little while ago and was talking to some of the military and he asked them how they would recognize their Messiah when he came. Their response was that he would help them rebuild their temple.

It all fits together perfectly, and everything is falling into place so fast it's impossible to keep up with it.

16 posted on 10/15/2012 10:57:20 AM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Wow.

I know that the elements and even the "perfect" red heifers for the temple sacrifice are being assembled in Israel. I know Jesus could come at any time, but He's promised me stuff in the next thirty to forty years that makes me think God may spare America (and, therefore, the world (when America goes the world will quickly plunge, IMO)) for a short "season" while He gathers the last of the guests to His wedding banquet before it all comes down. Hallelujah!

God Bless.

17 posted on 10/15/2012 11:20:17 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
beginning when Jesus Christ opens the first seal of judgment in Revelation 6:2.

If it begins at the first seal, then why do the souls under the alter (fifth seal) ask, "how long"? Wouldn't they know?

18 posted on 10/15/2012 4:29:41 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: aimhigh
I'm just going by when Jesus says the Tribulation will start.

If you disagree with the Scripture then you shouldn't be on a dispensational caucus thread and you need to take your disagreement with Jesus up with Him.

19 posted on 10/15/2012 4:34:56 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; PapaNew; imardmd1; aimhigh; UriĀ’el-2012
Another point made here is also the theme of II Thessalonians: to COMFORT the church - they need not be afraid of the coming Day of Wrath. It's kind of funny to me in a way how some Christians almost seem to want to go through the seven-year Tribulation.
PapaNew

There is no such thing as a seven year tribulation! It does not exist.

RE: Daniel's 70th week from Daniel 9:27

But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.

The week is a seven year time period. The patterns were set down in the Torah in the form of shemita cycles.

Leviticus 25:4 But in the seventh year the land is to have a sabbath of rest, a sabbath to the LORD. Do not sow your fields or prune your vineyards.

Two witnesses, every matter must be established by at least two witnesses.

John 8:17 In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true. 18 I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”

Now two witnesses from Revelation

Revelation 1:19 Write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after this. (Yeshua)

Revelation 4:4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

After Jochanan's (Johns) vision, after the crucifixion, after the resurrection and after the ascension!

Notice there are no references to a seven year time period in Revelation, you'll find time, times and half a time, three and a half days (years actually) and 42 months, all equal three and a half years. So what happened to the other half?

Back to Daniel...

Daniel 9:7 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering.

In the middle of the 'seven' He (Yeshua) will put an end to sacrifice and offering. (It is finished John 19:30).

Now for some fun, that is determining the 'middle of this week'.

This current year on the Hebrew calendar is 5773. The next shemita year is 5775. How do you determine a shemita year? Multiply (or divide) by seven. 7 x 825 = 5775. Now get yourself a Hebrew calendar.

http://www.hebcal.com/hebcal/

The Hebrew year begins on Rosh Hashanah (1 Tishri) so to go to the middle of a week (shemita cycle) count three and a half years and come to Pesach, 15 Nisan (Passover) to arrive at the middle of a week.

Lets start off with the year of the crucifixion, 3790 (30 C.E.).
15 Nisan 3790 is the middle of a/the week here.

3787 is a shemita year, 541 x 7 = 3787, that's 1 Tishri. Add three and a half Hebrew years and you arrive at 15 Nisan 3790. Here's more evidence for you.

From:
http://www.outreachjudaism.org/articles/red-ribbon.html

Why Didn’t the Red Ribbon on the Head of the Scapegoat Turn White in 30 C.E.?

Question:

I was wondering about a story that a “Hebrew-Christian” told me recently. He said that there was a scarlet cloth which would turn white every year when the high priest atoned for the sins of the people. When Jesus died, around 30 A.D., the cloth would no longer turn white when the priest atoned for sins because Jesus was the final atonement. I’ve read this story in other sources, and I wondered what you have to say about it.

Answer:

This assertion with which you were confronted has, in the last decade, attracted wide interest in the evangelical world. In fact, I am somewhat surprised that it has taken this long for one of our website visitors to write in with this question.

Despite the popularity this issue has gained in the Christian world in recent years, this contention stands out as one of the most bizarre arguments used by Christian apologists.

What makes this line of reasoning so strange is that it seeks to use the Talmud to prove that Jesus is the messiah. While most are simply surprised to learn that missionaries would depend on the Talmud in order to prove the validity of the Christian religion, in reality, this misuse of rabbinic literature is widespread...

Anyway here's the meat of this article.

Nevertheless, it is essential that we examine this well-worn argument with which you were confronted. In Tractate Yoma 39b, the Talmud quotes a Baraisa1 that discusses numerous remarkable phenomena that occurred in the Temple during the Yom Kippur service. More specifically, the Talmud states that there was a strip of scarlet-dyed wool tied to the head of the scapegoat2 which at times would turn white in the presence of the large crowd gathered at the Temple on the Day of Atonement. When this phenomenon occurred, the Jewish people perceived this miraculous transformation as a heavenly sign that their sins were forgiven. The Talmud relates, however, that 40 years before the destruction of the Second Temple the scarlet colored strip of wool did not turn white. The text of the Talmud which missionaries quote states,

The Rabbis taught that forty years prior to the destruction of the Temple the lot did not come up in the [high priest’s] right hand nor did the tongue of scarlet wool become white... (Talmud, Tractate Yoma 39b).

Citing the above statement, missionaries contend that the year the scarlet ribbon ceased to turn white coincides with the time that Jesus was crucified. After all, they argue, 40 years prior to the destruction of the Second Temple corresponds to the year 30 C.E,3 which is approximately the time of Jesus’ crucifixion. They conclude, therefore, that the cessation of the whitening of the scarlet ribbon clearly indicates that God was no longer accepting animal sacrifices, and the Jewish people, therefore, needed to turn to Jesus as their only avenue for atonement. Ultimately, this argument asserts that the reason why the scarlet strip of wool did not turn white in the year 30 C.E. was due to the fact that the sins of the Jews were not forgiven because they did not accept Jesus as their messiah...

End:

Or you could just go to The Encyclopedia Judaica to see the reference Jesus died 30 C.E. Your main library should have a copy.

Now, this makes finding the identity of the ruler (anti-Christ) that much easier.

Next!

20 posted on 10/16/2012 1:37:40 PM PDT by Jeremiah Jr (Chi ha-Olamim)
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To: Jeremiah Jr
This is a Dispensational Caucus thread, Jeremiah. We believe what the Holy Spirit wrote in the Scriptures and we take it literally. If God said that the Tribulation will last seven years, then the Tribulation will last seven years. In spite of all of the false doctrines and faddy new theories conjured up by those who don't like the Bible the way it was written so they come up with their own Bible.

What is the end times tribulation?

THE SEVEN-YEAR TRIBULATION PERIOD

Tribulation - The Purpose Of

The Seven Year Tribulation Exists!

Remember, if Scripture has to be denied or discarded for the doctrine to work, then the doctrine is a doctrine of demons.

21 posted on 10/16/2012 2:34:42 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta

I agree with the scriptures, so no problem there. I also believe in the dispensations. Where does Jesus say the tribulation period begins at the first seal? Not even sinners recognize judgment hitting until the sixth seal earthquake hits.


22 posted on 10/16/2012 3:14:31 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: aimhigh
What judgment is the first seal? What happens on earth when the first seal is opened?

And it doesn't matter what sinners recognize. The only thing that matters is what Jesus Christ has told us about this time.

What happens when the first seal is opened?

23 posted on 10/16/2012 3:35:34 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta
What happens when the first seal is opened?

A man sitting on a white horse is crowned, and he goes out to conquer. This translates to war, which we've seen centuries of. The first four seals aren't unusual considering history. Wars have been common. The Black Plague alone killed over a forth of mankind. This is what makes me wonder if the 1st four seals speak of judgments from the time of Christ's resurrection to the start of the tribulation period.

My reference to the souls under the alter is this: Since the tribulation lasts 7 seven years, why would the souls under the alter ask, "how long" if the tribulation period had already started? Wouldn't they already know the answer if the tribulation period had already started?

24 posted on 10/16/2012 4:34:41 PM PDT by aimhigh
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To: Jeremiah Jr
Notice there are no references to a seven year time period in Revelation, you'll find time, times and half a time, three and a half days (years actually) and 42 months, all equal three and a half years. So what happened to the other half?

Actually Revelation explains the period of seven years. Here goes...

As you probably know, Revelation is a timeline of a series of events punctuated by parenthetical explanations of the events and characters being portrayed. The book’s time sequence of things is emphasized by the sequential opening of the seals, one after the other, the blowing of the seven trumpets, one after the other, and the pouring out of the vials in order. Probably need to explain all seven years to get the context of the last 3½ years.

1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [=3½ years], clothed in sackcloth... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:3,7.

The killing of the two witnesses takes place near the end of the trumpet sound of the sixth angel (the second woe) and just before the sound of the seventh angel (the third woe) in Rev. 11:14. This marks the end of the first 3½ years (what Jesus in Matthew 24:8 called “the beginning of sorrows”). So the first 3½ years are from Rev 6:1 through 11:14.

Second 3½ years

From that point on, after the sounding of the seventh angel (the third woe), this beast is allowed to have power to continue 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:4-5.

The beast first appears at the end of the first 3½ years but is given "power to continue" during the second 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

The verses just preceding Revelation 11:14 map to “the midst of the week” when he takes away the temple sacrifice (Dan 9:27). God calls this former political world ruler (who “conquers” Rev 6:2) “the beast” beginning with Rev 11:7 because in the second 3½ years, “he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess 2:4) and is therefore worshiped. (Rev 13:4).

The second 3½ years are from Rev 11:15 through 19:21.

25 posted on 10/16/2012 5:34:31 PM PDT by PapaNew
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To: Jeremiah Jr
Next!

Too bad you took so much of your time chasing rabbits when it might have been put to work advancing the interests of The Kingdom of The God.

The problem is that your argument (rebate-style, that is) is deeply flawed in that it rests on other ephemeral suppositions not in agreement with Holy Scripture.

(1) The seven-year tribulation begins when: (a) The God absolutely determines to initiate His thlipsis on them that trouble those whom He has save (2 Thes. 1:6); (b) the last person to be saved under the New Covenant is saved according to His Own Will (Eph. 2:8); (c) He removes the bodies and souls of all His regenerated believer-disciple-priests from the wrath and corruption to come, as He promised (1 Thess. 2: ), those whom Christ has confessed before The Father and all His angels (Mt. 10:32, Lk. 12:8); (c) The Holy Ghost, the last restraining influential Person left on the Earth removes Himself out of this kosmos back to The Heaven (2 Thes. 2:6,7); (d) the second person of the unholy trinity, no longer hindered, assumes power and is revealed as the man of sin the anti-christ (anti meaning in place of)(Rev. 13:11) proclaiming himself as deity, invests himself as The God in the (reconstructed) Temple of The God (2 Thes. 2:4,8,); and (e) this impostor declares that peace on the earth has been instituted when as in fact the whole kosmos is now at war with The True God, with His Anointed One, and with the Holy Ghost (Jer. 6:14, 1 Thes. 5:3).

Thus begins the Tribulation, the vengeance of The God against the sin-brimmed earth and people, of which the last approximately three and a half years is termed "The Great Tribulation."

(2) The crucifixion took place in 33 AD, not 30 AD, or CE if you prefer that style and cannot bear that Jesus Christ is LORD of all.

(3) You might also take note that The God's progressively revealed Word (not wholly available to Daniel, nor understood by him though he was a diviner)(Dan. 12:9,13). Through the eyes of the Apostles illuminated by the Holy Ghost, we see, sometimes more so than they, as we read, exegete, watch, pray, and experience The God'smessage to us.>p> As studiers and practitioners of The God's dealing with mankind throughout the ages, we do not take counsel with the Talmud (the annals of a now-dead religion) or the Judaic Encyclopedia, the writings of Patristic Fathers (they are also thoughts of dead men, not of the Living Word), nor the Great Catechism of a tradition based on it (an accumulation of some 1700+ years of doctrinal error), and certainly not the musings and mysteries recounted in old wives' tales; for none of those are verbally inspired, inerrant, infallible, plenarily given and complete, providentially preserved, and magnified in The (3rd) Heaven by Him above His Own Name. And it is that that we trust alone in this end of the age time, as ever. And though even our best volume of the English language is widely received, broadly distributed, faithful in translation, marvellous in style and form, yet we do not completely trust in any man's explanation of it without comparison of it with careful exegesis of the original languages with a literal/historical/grammatical interpretation of literal and figurative-literal language; because even the KJV is not inspired. but simply a good translationof the more precise original tongues in which The Holy Ghost elected to express himself to us for the record.

(4) It takes too much effort to reargue all the errors of your propositions, than to move forward with others. in this dedicated and defined dispensational caucus to examine and discuss Biblical truths more deeply and lovingly than discussions such as you have presented.

Perhaps considering moving your disputation to another arena more tolerant of your presuppositions would be more accepting? That would be nice of you.

Or else stay and learn with us without trying to undercut the basic premises, or perhaps come to understand salvational truths?

Respectfully --

Next!

26 posted on 10/16/2012 9:24:48 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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To: Jeremiah Jr; imardmd1
***The problem is that your argument (rebate-style, that is)...***

I meant to say debate-style in the above. I'm sorry -- I missed out on this in rereading my own note.

27 posted on 10/16/2012 9:31:52 PM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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To: aimhigh
A man sitting on a white horse is crowned, and he goes out to conquer.

What indication do you have in that text that the rider on a pale horse is anything but a man? Where in the text there do you get the idea that the rider is not actually what Jesus Christ said it was but is something different - something that each person can decide for himself that it is?

And where in Scripture does God authorize man to change the meanings of what He wrote?

Why are you on a dispensatinal caucus thread, again? You are aware of caucus rules, right? If not, they are on the Religion Moderator's homepage. You may want to run over there and read the rules before you continue.

For everyone else who is on here to learn and not to disparage and change and deny Scripture, we can discuss what Christ was telling us when He opens the first seal of judgment of the Tribulation.

Most theologians agree that the rider represents the Antichrist, who will be “given” his crown by a world that elects him to bring about the peace and safety they desperately crave. The Antichrist will promise peace and make a peace treaty with Israel (Daniel 9:27), but in the end it proves to be a false peace that he uses to entrap an unsuspecting world. This fact is described by the prophet Daniel: “And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many”.

The revealing of the Antichrist in the first seal coincides with Daniel's prophecy of the Antichrist "confirming" a "peace covenant" with Israel which begins the seven year Tribulation period.

My reference to the souls under the alter is this: Since the tribulation lasts 7 seven years, why would the souls under the alter ask, "how long" if the tribulation period had already started? Wouldn't they already know the answer if the tribulation period had already started?

God doesn't tell us that does He? At least in my unchanged Bible He doesn't.

The only thing we can do is guess as to why the Tribulation saints ask God when it will be over. My own opinion is that they are just crying out for the Lord to end all of it and set up His kingdom.

28 posted on 10/17/2012 2:47:06 PM PDT by GiovannaNicoletta (In the last days, mockers will come with their mocking... (2 Peter 3:3))
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To: GiovannaNicoletta; imardmd1
I meant to copy you on my post copied and pasted below. Thought you might be interested in a way to explain the seven years explicit in Revelation, which is somewhat hard to articulate, but relatively easy to understand once the pieces are in place...

God bless

As you probably know, Revelation is a timeline of a series of events punctuated by parenthetical explanations of the events and characters being portrayed. The book’s time sequence of things is emphasized by the sequential opening of the seals, one after the other, the blowing of the seven trumpets, one after the other, and the pouring out of the vials in order. Probably need to explain all seven years to get the context of the last 3½ years.

1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days [=3½ years], clothed in sackcloth... And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. Revelation 11:3,7.

The killing of the two witnesses takes place near the end of the trumpet sound of the sixth angel (the second woe) and just before the sound of the seventh angel (the third woe) in Rev. 11:14. This marks the end of the first 3½ years (what Jesus in Matthew 24:8 called “the beginning of sorrows”). So the first 3½ years are from Rev 6:1 through 11:14.

Second 3½ years

From that point on, after the sounding of the seventh angel (the third woe), this beast is allowed to have power to continue 3½ years (Rev 13:5).

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. Rev 13:4-5.

The beast first appears at the end of the first 3½ years but is given "power to continue" for the next 3½ years (“42 months”) (Rev 13:5).

The verses just preceding Revelation 11:14 map to “the midst of the week” when he takes away the temple sacrifice (Dan 9:27). This former political world ruler (who “conquers” Rev 6:2) is what scripture calls “the beast” beginning with Rev 11:7 because in the second 3½ years, “he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God” (2 Thess 2:4) and is therefore worshiped. (Rev 13:4).

The second 3½ years are from Rev 11:15 through 19:21.

29 posted on 10/18/2012 5:38:38 AM PDT by PapaNew
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To: PapaNew; GiovannaNicoletta
1st 3½ years

The beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit is first mentioned in Revelation 11:7 when he kills the two witnesses after their 3½ year testimony.

It's been a long time since I studied this, but it seems that this beast is not the same one of Rev. 13:1, which rose out of the sea. The sea is the nations (Da. 7:2,3;Rev. 17:15). This beast is a composite of the 3 beasts of Dan. 7:4-6, and is thus like unto the fourth best of Dan. 7:7. Looking from head to toes as consecutive in time, this beast is the modern revival of the ancient Roman Empire. Its identity is the manifestation of the first of the unholy trinity, the anti-God, IIRC.

All the world wonders/admires/follows after (enclitic of direction) this beast, and because they worship the dragon, that old serpent which is the Devil, and Satan (Rev. 12:7,9; 20:2), the power-giving (Eph. 2:2) anti-Spirit (angels are spirits, Heb. 1:7) who empowers the anti-God beast who came up out of the sea.

But then another beast (allo, of the same kind) came out of the earth (metonomy of "them that dwell upon the earth," who were left behind, so to speak), the second person of the unholy trinity, the anti-Christ, a false messiah, anointed by the Devil I suppose (Dan. 7:8; Rev. 12:11-17), a false prophet (Rev. 19:20).

So, it seems that your explanation of "the" beast is not comprehensive in the bestiary panoply, eh? Worth a little more study, perhaps.

Respectfully --

30 posted on 10/18/2012 8:55:14 AM PDT by imardmd1 (Let the redeemed of The LORD say so, whom He hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy. (Ps. 107:2))
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To: imardmd1
But then another beast (allo, of the same kind) came out of the earth (metonomy of "them that dwell upon the earth," who were left behind, so to speak), the second person of the unholy trinity, the anti-Christ, a false messiah, anointed by the Devil I suppose (Dan. 7:8; Rev. 12:11-17), a false prophet (Rev. 19:20).

So, it seems that your explanation of "the" beast is not comprehensive in the bestiary panoply, eh?

Worth a little more study, perhaps.

I think so. You've answered your own question about this second "beast" which, BTW, has no contrary bearing on the seven-year time timetable laid out in Revelation.

Chapter 13 is part of a four-chapter series of parenthetical explanations, background, and overview of the characters and events about to take place. It (re)introduces the "first" beast (13:1) who rises from the sea (probably a Gentile (as you said sea=nations)). It also introduces "another beast" which comes out of the earth (probably a Jew (land often means Israel)). But this second "beast" causes everyone to worship the first beast (13:12), build an image of the first beast (13:14), and forces those who don't want to starve to death to take the number of the first beast (13:16,17).

So in this overview, we see two beasts in a political setting but it is clear the first has preeminence over the second. The second beast is the false prophet who promotes the first beast who ascends out of the bottomless pit (11:7, 17:8) and receives a kingdom (16:10).

31 posted on 10/18/2012 6:42:58 PM PDT by PapaNew
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