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God is Not a Torturer: Debunking the Doctrine of Eternal Torment
ReligiousLiberty.TV ^ | 10/17/2012 | Michael Peabody

Posted on 10/17/2012 5:32:20 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” John 3:16

[caption id="attachment_5052" align="alignright" width="215" caption=""The Water Torture.— Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoudère's Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556.""]"The Water Torture.— Facsimile of a Woodcut in J. Damhoudère's Praxis Rerum Criminalium: in 4to, Antwerp, 1556." - Used to illustrate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cure[/caption]

Pouring water over the covered face of an immobilized person is a brutal thing to do. The captive experiences severe pain and an overwhelming sensation of drowning. Some victims have even been known to break their bones as they struggle against the restraints.

But waterboarding is nothing compared with what American theologian Jonathan Edwards described God doing in his famous 1741 sermon, “Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God.” This tortuous existence extends into eternity from the moment of death.

American evangelist Charles Spurgeon preached that, “In hell there is no hope. They have not even the hope of dying; ­the hope of being annihilated. They are forever, ­forever, ­forever lost! On every chain in hell, there is written ‘forever’.  In the fires there, blaze out the words, ‘forever’.  Above their heads, they read, ‘forever’. Their eyes are galled and their hearts are pained with the thought that it is ‘forever’.  Oh, if I could tell you tonight that hell would one day be burned out, and that those who were lost might be saved, there would be a jubilee in hell at the very thought of it. But it cannot be­ it is ‘forever’ they are cast into the outer darkness.”

From the perspective of Edwards and Spurgeon, the depths of hell are inversely proportionate to the heights of Heaven, as an all-powerful God gives eternal life to both the saved and the damned. While tears and sorrow will vanish from Heaven, the saved live with enduring knowledge and are even expected to rejoice that somewhere else concurrently living souls of the damned ranging from evil dictators to their unsaved neighbors day after day experiencing continuous ripping pain throughout eternity. An unrepentant child who died 1,000 years ago is being tortured that much longer than a recent mass murderer.

But is this really something that God would do?  Does this belief influence how many Christians relate to the rest of the world?

In a 2008 USA Today poll, 57% of Southern evangelical respondents, and 48% of the general public, said that they believed torture can be justified to obtain information from suspected terrorists.

Why would be Christians be more willing to justify torture than the general public? It might go back to the doctrine of eternal torment in hell.  Many believe that God will engage in torture day and night for eternity, so it would follow that Americans fighting for a righteous cause are justified in engaging in torture for short amounts of time to meet their objectives.

In the aftermath of the terrorist attacks, on September 13, 2001, Ann Coulter, in an infamous column wrote, “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity. We weren't punctilious about locating and punishing only Hitler and his top officers. We carpet-bombed German cities; we killed civilians. That's war. And this is war.”

In Catholic theology, torture isn’t only reserved for the eternally lost. The church teaches that even the saved will suffer in purgatory for their sins until their debt of temporary punishment for venial sin has been paid through their own suffering.

But does suffering in hell appeal to the blood lust of an angry God, or do many Christians simply have the wrong picture of God? Where did this idea come from?

The doctrine of hell, as is commonly believed, has its origin in Plato and its application in the writings of Augustine who believed that God must punish, not only save, otherwise no human life, lived well or badly, made any ultimate difference. (See James V. Schall, "Regarding the Inattentiveness to Hell in Political Philosophy,"DivusThomas, (Piacenza), (#3-4, 1989), 273-79.)

Augustine believed that ultimately salvation from hell was the ultimate goal since one’s destination and one’s existence were the only things that were eternal. He divided society between the people who were saved in the “City of God” and the damned “Earthly City.”  Since the two “cities” were intermingled on earth, The City of God must be fortified against the hellish Earthly City by an all-powerful totalitarian church that could police and protect the flock.

Because humanity set on a downward course through original sin, Augustine created the framework for an intermingling of church and state which would be necessary to ensure the survival of public moral virtues that would save as much of society as possible.

Invoking the doctrine of eternal hell, Augustine made an argument along the lines that if two men lived in a house which people knew ‘with absolute certainty’ was about to fall down on them and kill them.  If the men were warned of the impending danger and they refused, what should we do? Should we rescue them now, and reason with them later, or leave them to die? According to Augustine, we should rescue them now, for "I think that if we abstained from doing it, we should well deserve the charge of cruelty."  (See Augustine, “A Treatise Concerning the Correction of the Donatists; or Epistle CLXXXV).

[caption id="attachment_5041" align="alignright" width="200" caption="Religious punishment: Burning at the Stake"]Execution by burning at the stake[/caption]

Accordingly, Augustine believed that it was the duty of the religious community to conduct investigations to locate heresy in Hell on Earth - Burning at the stakeorder to prevent the messages of heretics from corrupting the righteous. As a leading bishop, Augustine personally assisted in the interrogation, or inquisition of pagans, unorthodox Christians, and others he viewed as holding unacceptable beliefs. Ultimately, the Church took control over defining what was “true” doctrine and anybody who disagreed or preached contrary to these “truths” could be justifiably tortured or even killed in order to keep society free of harmful heresy and to fulfill the greater purpose.

So Christians acting with presumably good intentions resorted to techniques ranging from starvation to heaping burning coals on parts of the bodies of heretics. Then they started inventing ways to cause pain more efficiently while avoiding death in order to obtain confessions. Medieval torturers would tie the hands of the accused to pulleys on the ceiling and attach weights to the feet and ankles.  They invented methods of stretching the joints of subjects to the point where bones were pulled from their sockets. They pulled at skin with pincers and thumbscrews and invented waterboarding, a technique first practiced by the Inquisition against Mennonite Christians in 1554.

Augustine’s beliefs in eternal hell, just war, and torture continue to have a tremendous influence on the modern world.

Augustine would consider this vein of thought pure heresy, but if Jesus Christ would really provide for eternal life both heaven and hell, maybe Christopher Hitchens was on to something when he titled his book, “God is Not Great.” If, as I type this, God is burning people at unquenchable stakes, then why would He care about the temporal suffering of a child who lost his pet dog or a father suffering the ravages of cancer? Even His suffering and death on the cross lasted less than a day – how could a week, a year, a century, or eternity possibly be justified? How can a God like this possibly be “love”?

What a person believes about hell has a lot to do with what they think about God and how they believe people should be treated. As we enter times of social stress and ambiguity, when fundamental values are at stake, people of faith who doubt the power of God to change lives and believe that they are needed to fight the spiritual battle often engage a persecutory impulse, justified by a concept that whatever torture they mete out will be nothing to the fires of hell. In fact, for over a thousand years, Christians were religious persecutors.

I’m not a theologian so this may not be complete but here is a basic overview of what the Bible says about heaven and hell.

  1. God created a perfect world that was originally designed to last forever. God did not create a hell. It was not through a process of trial and error with death introduced before perfection. “God saw that it was good.”
  2. Satan was a high ranking created being who felt that he should be honored just like God was honored, and Satan accused God of being unfair and unjust – Satan argued that God’s love was not unconditional and unlimited and that if God’s rule was ever challenged, God would become a tyrant and arbitrarily destroy those who challenged Him. (If this sounds a lot like current popular teachings on hell, that’s because it is the same.)
  3. God allowed Himself to go on Trial before the universe of created beings. Was Satan right about God being an unjust tyrant? God’s argument was that He was both loving and just. The entire universe of created beings is the jury.
  4. In order to make his case, Satan was given an opportunity to tempt Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. God told Adam and Eve they could eat the fruit of any other trees, but not to eat the fruit of the tree of the “knowledge of good and evil”, because it would lead to their death. When they ate the forbidden fruit, Creation became mortal. Satan tempted them and said that if they ate the fruit they would not die, but that their eyes would be opened and they would know both good and evil. (Genesis 3)
  5. When they ate the fruit, plants and animals began to die, and it wasn’t long until people began to die as a consequence of the sin that had been introduced to the world through this action. God did not lose his love for humanity but He also knew that the penalty for their transgression was eternal death. (Romans 6:23 – “The wages of sin are death.”)
  6. Rather than destroy His created people like Satan said God would do, God found a way to pay the penalty for sin while allowing those who chose to live to avoid eternal death. When Jesus died on the cross, he paid the price for sin once and for all, and there was enough grace to extend to every person on earth. It is not limited. The saved will not have to supplement their salvation in purgatory. “For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit.” 1 Peter 3:8 (NIV).
  7. Jesus was placed in a borrowed tomb and was unconscious from His death on Friday until His resurrection on Sunday. Jesus did not descend into hell (he did descend to death) on Friday and did not ascend to heaven until after He was resurrected. In fact, He told Mary not to touch Him because He had “not yet ascended” to Heaven. (John 20:17)
  8. Jesus will return as He promised. The living who have been saved by accepting this sacrifice on their will ascend to heaven and the righteous dead will be resurrected at that time. (1 Thessalonians 4:13)
  9. During the 1,000 years after the Second Coming, the books will be opened and the saved will be able to examine all of God’s actions throughout history and to see whether the accusations that Satan brought forward were true or false. They will also determine whether God was just in his decisions involving those who were not saved.  (1 Corinthians 6:2,3 Revelation 15:3, 20:1-4.
  10. After that, there will be another resurrection of those who were not saved for the sentencing and final disposition. (John 5:29, Revelation 20:5,7) The actions of God will be explained to everybody who has ever lived in history. Satan will try to rally the unsaved to mount a physical attack on the Kingdom of God. (Revelation 20:8, 9). God’s “Great White Throne” will become visible to all inside and outside of the Holy City and God will pronounce judgment. (Revelation 20:12; Luke 13:28) At this point, everybody will bow before God and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. (Philippians 2:10; Isaiah 44:22,23)Those who have been saved through the death of Christ will live and those who were not saved will be destroyed with finality along with the earth which has suffered the ravages of sin. "Fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured" all the unsaved. (Revelation 20:9, 15; see also 2 Peter 3:7) "The heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up" (2 Peter 3:10).  “Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 21:11).
  11. The destructive results of the fire will be eternal, but the fire itself will go out.  (Malachi 4:1-3)
  12. God will show his Creative power and recreate the earth again, just as He did at the beginning but this time those who are saved will be able to watch it happen.  In this new earth, there will be no more hell. The saved will be able to fully enjoy Heaven without knowing that somewhere else God is torturing those who are not there with them. God’s character will vindicated as a God of love and a God of justice.Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’[b] or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”  (Rev. 21:1-5).
  13. The perfection of Eden will be restored and the only remnants of sin and death will be the memories of those who lived through it. The curse of sin will have been destroyed.  “Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign forever and ever.”  (Revelation 22:1-5)
Christians need not live as if they are victims of Stockholm syndrome, with irrational love for a captor who actively tortures His creation. Instead, the Bible paints a picture of a God who does not torture. The freely available gift is eternal life, the wages of sin are eternal death.

“And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Revelation 21:4.

 

Thy mercy, O Lord, is in the heavens; and thy faithfulness reacheth unto the clouds.

Thy righteousness is like the great mountains; thy judgments are a great deep: O Lord, thou preservest man and beast.

How excellent is thy lovingkindness, O God! Therefore the children of men put their trust under the shadow of thy wings.

(Psalm 36:5-7)

 

###

 

For more information about the doctrine of hell, visit:

 

Hell Truth (Amazing Facts) - http://www.helltruth.com/

Brian P. Phillips - “Annhilation or Everlasting Torment?” Ministry Magazine (1996) http://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1996/August/annihilation-or-endless-torment

Film: Hell and Mr. Fudge - http://hellandmrfudge.org/


TOPICS: Apologetics; General Discusssion; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian
KEYWORDS: heaven; hell; love; pimpmyblog; torment; yopios
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1 posted on 10/17/2012 5:32:24 PM PDT by ReligiousLibertyTV
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Jesus made many clear statements regarding Hell:

http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-did-jesus-say-about-hell.html?m=1


2 posted on 10/17/2012 5:41:05 PM PDT by TigerClaws
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Hell is real. You don’t want to go there.

Only Jesus can save you from it.


3 posted on 10/17/2012 5:41:34 PM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
Tom Anderson, the editor of Farm and Ranch magazine, told the story of a liberal and a conservative church that faced one another across a road. One day the sign in front of the liberal church read, "there ain't no hell." Soon afterwards, the sign in front of the conservative church read, "to hell there ain't."
4 posted on 10/17/2012 5:43:02 PM PDT by Fiji Hill (Deo Vindice!)
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To: PastorBooks

Heck is where people who don’t really believe in Gosh think they’re not headed.


5 posted on 10/17/2012 5:44:09 PM PDT by Ingtar (Everyone complains about the weather, but only Liberals try to legislate it.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Well, unless one rejects much of what Jesus said as either never having said it, or a lie, then there most certainly is everlasting hell. And not because God is torturing anyone, but because they have chosen to reject God and all his goodness, and now exist outside goodness where there is NO love, No compassion, No forgiveness, nothing at all of which most of us consider to be good. Only wailing and gnashing of teeth so to speak. It may very well be that there is no literal burning, Jesus may have used that word as the best way to get across the idea of torment, but there is torment nonetheless.


6 posted on 10/17/2012 5:47:48 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: TigerClaws
Jesus made many clear statements regarding Hell:

I guess that isn't good enough for some people?

The title of the article is absurd.

Secondly, the souls that are in Hell have gone their on their own accord. God gives them every opportunity to repent and come to Him.

7 posted on 10/17/2012 5:53:02 PM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Hell - The biggest extortion job in history.


8 posted on 10/17/2012 5:55:57 PM PDT by tomkat
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
In Catholic theology, torture isn’t only reserved for the eternally lost. The church teaches that even the saved will suffer in purgatory for their sins until their debt of temporary punishment for venial sin has been paid through their own suffering.

Wrong. Purgatory is where the souls that are bound for Heaven undergo a purification, not torture, because "nothing impure can enter Heaven"

9 posted on 10/17/2012 5:57:30 PM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: HerrBlucher

Amen.


10 posted on 10/17/2012 5:59:38 PM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: tomkat

“You’ll believe it when you get there.” Padre Pio


11 posted on 10/17/2012 6:01:08 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: frogjerk
the souls that are bound for Heaven undergo a purification, not torture

Ever been purified? Hurts like hell. Not "hell" hell, but think of full soul bikini wax. "RRRRRRiiippp". But what are you going to do? Beats the alternative.

12 posted on 10/17/2012 6:01:16 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (Tequila can hurt but it wasn't designed to kill you. Taqiyya is.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

I remember a drive home from college where I was discussing an issue with my father. In the course of the discussion he said something that crossed my idea of who God was. I could not accept what he was saying and argued with him. He showed me many verses but I continued to reject what he was trying to teach me. Finally he asked ‘Son, when are you going to let the Bible say what the Bible says?’ It was like I got hit between the eyes and immediately the resistance disappeared. I responded with ‘ok, I get it’. He thought I was being sarcastic (I was a teenager after all) and he was pressing the point when I said ‘Dad, really, I get it now.’ It was the single most significant moment of my life to date. People do not want to come to God on his terms.


13 posted on 10/17/2012 6:06:12 PM PDT by Frapster (There you go again....)
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To: Sirius Lee
the souls that are bound for Heaven undergo a purification, not torture Ever been purified? Hurts like hell. Not "hell" hell, but think of full soul bikini wax. "RRRRRRiiippp". But what are you going to do? Beats the alternative.

No, I have never been purified from sin as is the purpose of purgatory and neither have you yet. So any real comparison to anything on earth is lacking.

14 posted on 10/17/2012 6:08:04 PM PDT by frogjerk (OBAMA NOV 2012 = HORSEMEAT)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

It really is irrelevant what you or I think about it. The Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, God the Son and Second Person of The Trinity said:

Mar 9:41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.
Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
Mar 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
Mar 9:46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Mar 9:47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
Mar 9:48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Eternal Salvation is free for the asking....while we’re still breathing. But if a person has the gall to reject God’s Plan of Salvation and go out into eternity still carrying a record of sin and guilt, that person has CHOSEN to spend eternity in the lake of fire.

Let’s face it; there’s only one of two places we can go to in eternity; and whichever one we wind up in, it was BY OUR OWN CHOICE.


15 posted on 10/17/2012 6:10:06 PM PDT by Tucker39
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
Hell is the wages of sin, not torture.

There is a way out. The free gift of Jesus's sacrifice for you.

Your choice!

16 posted on 10/17/2012 6:11:12 PM PDT by Tolkien (Grace is the Essence of the Gospel; Gratitude is the Essence of Ethics.)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
It's the eternal separation from G-d. G-d is pure love and pure light. G-d doesn't send to to Hell, people go there voluntarily by rejecting Yashua which is rejecting G-d. G-d says “Okay, you don't want to be with me, then there's a place I have set aside for the devil and his angels. You can go habitate with them”.
17 posted on 10/17/2012 6:13:00 PM PDT by SkyDancer (Never Have Regrets, Because At The Time It Was Exactly What You Wanted.)
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To: Frapster
People do not want to come to God on his terms.

As I like to tell people who have that reticence: "There's your trouble..."

18 posted on 10/17/2012 6:17:57 PM PDT by Migraine (Diversity is great; until it happens to YOU.)
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To: frogjerk

Purgatory isn’t a place anymore; John Paul said so.


19 posted on 10/17/2012 6:18:07 PM PDT by mquinn (Obama's supporters: a deliberate drowning of consciousness by means of rhythmic noise)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; HossB86; ...
Seventh-day Adventists hold to annihilationism, that even a Hitler will be simply burned up at the end (and which fundamental SDA's believe is also the fate of those who worship on Sundays and do not keep the laws which SDA's require). The fact is that the Lord Jesus warned that it would be better to pluck out one's eye than to go into unquenchable fire, (Mk. 9:43-48) in the same place prepared for the devil, and both will suffer eternal punishment, (Rv. 14:11; 20:10; Mt. 24:41,36) in accordance with their guilt. (Lk. 12:48; Rv. 20:21-15) Annihilationism makes a mockery of the warnings of Christ, and few souls would be dissuaded from living a life of fulfilling their lust if the penalty is simply being burned up in the end.

From http://www.bible.ca/su-annihilation-refuted.htm:

Click to View

Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
1 Cor 15:53
All men's bodies will become immortal at the resurrection

Man's body is not immortal right now.

  1. Man is not immortal YET, but will be made that way! But mortality corresponds to the body. It is the body that will be made immortal, not the soul!
  2. "The real issue between Dualists and Annihilationists is nothing other than this: Does Scripture teach that the wicked will be made immortal for the purpose of suffering endless pain; or does it teach that the wicked following whatever degree and duration of pain God may justly inflict, will finally and truly die, perish and become extinct forever and ever?" (The Fire That Consumes, Edward W. Fudge, Annihilationist, p. 425)

First we notice that we as Christians are to seek immortality. Obviously we do not possess it yet if we seek it

Rom 2:7 "to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life"

Second at resurrection the mortal (us now with a physical mortal body) will put on the immortal (all men will have an immortal body)

1 Cor 15:53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"

Now this is a powerful argument against annihilation. If ALL MEN both good and WICKED put on immortality at the resurrection, then how do they then cease to exist? What kind of immortality is that? Hence eternal torment! Never to die again! Man's body is not immortal now, but will be made so. All men, whether good or wicked! Man survives death consciously, then at resurrection is made immortal!

How can the wicked suffer the second death if they are immortal and then suffer the second death? If the wicked die again, then how can:

"come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory?" 1 Cor 15

  1. Simple, mortal refers to the body part not the soul. when man dies he survives death consciously. After resurrection, his immortal spiritual body is given to him and he will never again be apart from his body. IMMORTAL. But the second death is not the separation of the body and soul, but the separation of man from God for eternity in hell!
  2. Remember, the saying, "Death is swallowed up in victory" will come about at the final resurrection. If the wicked die PHYSICALLY again, then God was wrong when he said: "when this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."" Obviously this was not true, for the wicked are swallowed up in physical death and death keeps its victory forever!

While living

We are a spirit with a physical body

While dead in Hades

We are a spirit without a physical body

after resurrection

We are a spirit with a spirit body, just like Christs! 1 Jn 3:2; Phil 3:20-21

This argument is irrefutable unless one:

  1. denies that the wicked are even raised from the dead as Christadelphians do thus contradicting "there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Acts 24:15
  2. affirms that none of 1 Cor 15 has anything to say about the resurrection of the wicked, the central resurrection chapter of the Bible. Yet v22 proves this applies to ALL MEN! "For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all shall be made alive."

Click to View

Click to View

The #1 argument annihilationists use:
(Notice it is an argument of human reasoning, not scripture)

Herbert W. Armstrong and his many splinter groups state:

A loving God wouldn't torment forever his creation

A loving God will torment forever his creation

Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)

"The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment" (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)

Herbert W. Armstrong and many of his splinter groups have taken the unusual position that the Devil and his angels will be tormented forever.

Click to View

Argument refuted:
You already worship and respect a God who is going to eternally torment the Devil and millions of angels! These spirit beings cannot be destroyed by fire! You already believe a loving God is going to do this!!! The Devil and man are both equally God's creatures. The argument is completely inconsistent. The argument is so completely refuted, we have designated it a knock out punch!

Seventh-day Adventists & Jehovah's Witnesses believe the devil and demons will be annihilated along with evil men. Christadelphians do not believe that the devil and demons are actual persons, but merely the personification of sin.

These annihilationists argue:

  1. "Morally, the doctrine of eternal conscious torment is incompatible with the Biblical revelation of divine love and justice. The moral intuition God has implanted within our consciences cannot justify the insatiable cruelty of a God who subjects sinners to unending torments. Such a God is like a bloodthirsty monster and not like the loving Father revealed to us by Jesus Christ." (a SDA leader)
  2. "The doctrine of eternal torment is a wicked defamation of Jehovah. It is a foul stain upon his lovable name." (a Jw leader)
  3. And now, who is responsible for this God-dishonoring doctrine? And what is his purpose? The promulgator of it is Satan himself; and his purpose in introducing it has been to frighten the people away from studying the Bible and to make them hate God. (Jw's: J. F. Rutherford, Watchtower Society's Second President)
  4. How can Christians possibly project a deity of such cruelty and vindictiveness whose ways include inflicting everlasting torture upon his creatures, however sinful they may have been? Surely a God who would do such a thing is more nearly like Satan than like God, at least by any ordinary moral standards, and by the gospel itself. (Clark Pinnock, Professor, McMaster University)

Argument refuted:

This argument is faulty human reasoning and not based on any passage of the Bible. We may not understand the justice of God by eternally punishing the wicked. Yet we also do not understand the grace of God by rewarding the saved with eternal life. On human terms, we cannot understand either "kindness and severity of God" Rom 11:22

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Wicked Men, the devil and his angels will be tormented forever:

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The devil & his angels tormented forever

Wicked men tormented forever

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

The devil and angels are just as much God's creation as man, therefore the argument is invalid!

  1. Unsaved men spend eternity in the same place as the Devil and his angels: Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
  2. According to annihilationists, man is wholly physical and the devil is wholly spiritual (a created spirit being). Yet both will be thrown into the same place! Obviously then, man is not wholly physical, but has a spiritual side, just like the devil.

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is the fire literal or figurative?

In case you had not noticed Arians, who take an entirely physical outlook of man have a real problem regardless of whether they take the fire of hell literal or symbolic.

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is the lake of fire and hell fire literal or symbolic?

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: Literal

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Valley of Hinnom, located just outside the city of Jerusalem. You can see it in the maps at the back of your Bible.

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe that this valley is where the wicked will literally be burnt with literal fire.

  1. "gehenna and the lake of fire are the same. A very large fire would have the appearance of a fiery lake, hence its description". ... "flames of the "lake of fire" purify the earth's surface, burning in one vast worldwide holocaust 2 Pet. 3:10. ... all the things man has created be burned up, as well as the rest of those People who will not have received salvation and eternal life because of willful rebellion against God ... the wicked to be reduced to ashes by the fire which will consume the earth's surface" (WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
  2. This great fire is the same as the "lake of fire," mentioned in Revelation, when God judges the incorrigibly wicked. It will sweep around the entire earth! The elements themselves will be dissolved, the surface of the earth will be purged and consumed with tremendous heat. Every remnant of man's sin, every sign of iniquity, every last trace of evil will be devoured by the heat of this fire. (Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)

Seventh-day Adventist: Literal and symbolic

  1. Location of Hell ... this earth is reserved for that fire which will bring judgment and perdition to the wicked. Their punishment will be in this earth. ... The prophet portrays the entire planet enveloped in the destroying fire. Even the streams and dust are transformed into an exploding combustion of pitch and brimstone." ... This brings us to the third great fact about the subject of hell. Hell as a place of punishment will be this earth turned into a lake of fire at the Day of Judgment." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)

Jehovah's Witness: literal and Symbolic

  1. "the surrounding language of the book of revelation make evident the symbolic quality of the lake of fire" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
  2. "so also the revelation of Jesus Christ with his powerful angels in a flaming fire will result in permanent destruction only for the wicked 2 Pe 3:5-7" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Fire)
  3. "Symbolic of compete destruction . Jesus used Gehenna as a representative of utter destruction. ... the symbolic picture here" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Gehenna)

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Will the Hell fire ever burn out? All Arians say YES!

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:

  1. "Even so it will be with the FINAL gehenna fire. It will be unquenched--but it will finally burn itself out!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)
  2. Many people believe in an ... ever-burning hellfire ... But the Bible's simple teaching conveys nothing of the kind. Our God is a loving, merciful Father who does not want to consign anyone to that fate. (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
  3. This is why Jesus calls it aionios or age-lasting fire! The translation "everlasting" is misleading, since the fire itself will not burn forever. Obviously not, since God's Word clearly shows that when the present earth is purged and purified, it will be refashioned into a resplendent NEW EARTH! ... Jude 7 calls this ancient punishment "eternal fire" -- yet, the fire which devoured these cities in ancient times is not still burning in Palestine today! It burned itself out, long, long ago! ... "Unquenchable Fire" Mark 9:43 ... Does this mean the fire burns forever? Not at all. Take a match, light it and set a piece of paper on fire. Let it burn. Don't put it out, or snuff it out. Just let the paper burn, until it burns up. Soon it will burn itself out. Now, what do you have? A burned-up piece of paper. But did you put it out? Did you "quench" it? No. You left it unquenched. It was not quenched. Not at all! Even so, the final Gehenna fire will not be "quenched," or "put out." Nevertheless, in time, it will burn itself out when the wicked and all their wicked works are burned up! Any fire will go out when it runs out of fuel. That's the way the final Gehenna fire will be. In time, it will naturally burn itself out!(Heaven, Hell And The Hereafter, Triumph Prophetic Ministries (Church of God) W. F. Dankenbring)

Seventh-day Adventist:

  1. the New Testament references to "eternal punishment" (Matt 25:46), "eternal destruction" (2 Thess 1:9), "eternal fire" (Matt 25:41; Jude 7), and "eternal judgment" (Heb 6:2), do not necessarily mean a process that goes on forever. ... The actual duration of aionos is determined by the context. For example, the fire by which the wicked are punished is said to be "eternal" (Matt 18:8; 25:41) or "unquenchable" (Matt 3:12). This can hardly mean that the wicked will be agonizing forever in the midst of unextinguishable fire. The latter is clear from Jude 7, which says that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered "a punishment of eternal fire." Here "eternal-aionou" obviously means not never-ending but complete and permanent. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Advent Hope For Human Hopelessness)
  2. the fire is "eternal-aionios," not because of its endless duration, but because of its complete consumption and annihilation of the wicked. (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
  3. "the length of punishment. HOW long will the wicked continue to live and suffer in that fire? ... one thing we can say with certainty--the wicked won't live in that fire throughout eternity." (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)

Jehovah's Witness:

  1. "Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Rev 20:10 Will the Devil be tormented forever in the lake of fire?

H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups: YES (see below)

Christadelphians: NO! (The devil doesn't exist.)

Jehovah's Witness: NO

  1. "those cast into the lake of fire, [devil is cast there] go into second death from which there is no resurrection" (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Lake of fire)
  2. "Some commentators have pointed to the Biblical instances of the word torment to support the teaching of eternal suffering in fire. However, ... Rev 20:10 does not have that sense." (Jehovah's Witness, Aid to Bible understanding, Torment)

Seventh-day Adventist: NO

  1. "sinners, Satan, and the devils ultimately are consumed in the lake of fire and experience the extinction of the second death" (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
  2. Malachi 4:1 "the day is coming, burning like a furnace ... so that it will leave them neither root nor branch" No words of any language could make it more forceful or clear. This eternal fire burns up eternally. Even Satan, the root, is finally consumed. (Seventh-day Adventist, Joe Crews, Amazing Facts, Hell-Fire)

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
How can the Devil be tormented forever, if the hell fire burns out?

Exclusive to H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups:

  1. The verse ... Rev 20:10 ... indicates that the devil is to be cast into the lake of fire that had already consumed and destroyed the beast and false prophet. Satan, being spirit, is the one who will be tormented forever. The evil angels-the demons-will be included with Satan in his torment (Matthew 25:41). (What Happens After Death?, United Church of God, an International Association)
  2. "Satan will be cast into the same conflagration that will destroy all incorrigible mortals. Rev. 20:10 But since he is a spirit being, he will not be destroyed by the flames (see Luke 20:36) Revelation 20:10 shows Satan himself is to be TORMENTED unto the ages of the ages--"FOREVER AND EVER"! His torment will last forever. But not this fire. It will last only as long as combustible material remains to be consumed. Satan's torment, however, will continue forever as a mental anguish resulting from seeing all that he has striven toward, worked for, plotted for, burned up as the earth is purified by fire!"(WCG, What is hell? Ambassador BCC, Lesson 6, 1977)

Armstrong Refuted:

Only H. W. Armstrong and splinter groups believe the devil will be tormented forever.

One Neo-Sadducee refutes another: We are taking the unusual approach to let the Seventh-day Adventist church refute Armstrong. We agree with their comment.

  1. "it is impossible to visualize how the devil and his angels, who are spirits could "be tormented [with fire] day and night for ever and ever" (Rev 20:10). After all, fire belongs to the material, physical world, but the devil and his angels are not physical beings. Eldon Ladd rightly points out: "How a lake of literal fire can bring everlasting torture to non-physical beings is impossible to imagine. It is obvious that this is picturesque language describing a real fact in the spiritual world: the final and everlasting destruction of the forces of evil which have plagued men since the garden of Eden." (SDA, Samuele Bacchiocchi, ch 6, Hell: Eternal Torment Or Annihilation)
  2. Armstrong openly admitted that the devil being a spirit being, is different from men and must be tormented forever, "being as angels unable to die" they argue.

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H. W. Armstrong Refuted:

How can Armstrong and splinter groups say that the Lake of Fire was designed specifically for the devil and his angels, then in reality, they are totally unaffected by it? Their eternal torment is not caused by the lake of fire, since they argue it goes out, but by mental anguish.

The argument is so completely refuted, we have designated it a knock out punch!

H. W. Armstrong Vs. H. W. Armstrong:

Term

applied to men Armstrong argues

applied to devil Armstrong argues

"Eternal fire"

Mt 18:8; Jude 7 "will burn out"

Mt 25:41 "will never burn out"

"eternal punishment"

Mt 25:46 punishment will stop

Rev 20:10 "punishment will never stop" "eternal punishing"

lake of fire (how can the lake of fire destroy flesh of men and spirit of devil in one place)

men composed of only of flesh will be cast in

devil composed only of spirit will be cast in but it will have no effect on the devil.

smoke of hell

Takes literally: "will one day be gone, invisible from the earth, like Sodom" Jude 7

Takes symbolically: "will always be visible" Rev 20:10

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Which fits better?

"Once burnt - always burnt" or

"eternal conscious punishment"?

Annihilation

Eternal conscious punishment

The devil and his angels:

Rev 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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Wicked men:

Rev 14:10-11 he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

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Punishment that goes on forever!

Mt 25:46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

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Hell is a place of darkness reserved, not annihilation

Jude 13: "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever" "outer Darkness" Lk 13:27

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Hell is banishment away from God's presence

2 Th 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord

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Hell is banishment away from God's presence

"there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth there when you see Abraham in the kingdom of God, but yourselves being cast out." Mt 22:13

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Hell is banishment away from God's presence

"outside are the dogs" Rev 22:15
"
assign him a place with the hypocrites" Mt 24:51

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
False argument on Jude 7 debunked!

False argument:

It is argued that Sodom experienced the "punishment of eternal fire" and the fire has been out for 5000 years! This verse is said to prove that hell is an annihilation.

Jude 7

2 Pe 2:6

"Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example, in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire."

"He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly thereafter"

False argument refuted:

  1. Annihilationists are forced to TAKE LITERALLY that hell is literal fire, brimstone, lake of fire, the garbage dump of Jerusalem (gehenna). Yet they quickly retreat from taking any of the symbols of hell literally, for they know it will cause them great problems in other areas are argumentation by which the will be refuted. See the photogallery of hell for more. In short, annihilationists will not argue that hell is literal fire, yet here they are forced to take it literal, showing the typical inconsistency of their false doctrine.
  2. Jude is one of a large series of "examples" or "types" found in the New Testament.

Antitype
Shadow of what is to come: Col 2:17

Type

Text

Literal Incense

Symbolic incense: Prayer

Rev 5:8

Literal Candles

Symbolic candles: Christians are light

Rev 1:20

Literal Sanctuary

Symbolic sanctuary: Our bodies

1 Cor 6:19

Literal Instrumental music: Harp

Symbolic music: heart strings

Eph 5:19

Literal Priestly garments

Symbolic garments: Clothed by our deeds

Rev 19:8

Literal weekly Sabbath Day

Symbolic Sabbath day: Eternal rest in heaven

Heb 4

Sodom: Literal Fire and brimstone

Symbolic fire: Hell

Jude 7

So what happened to Sodom, is no more literal, than the Christian's priestly garments (good deeds) or his incense (prayer). To point to Sodom and argue that is what hell literally is, is as wrong as to point to incense and argue that is what prayer literally is.

What is amazing is that Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists, H. W. Armstrong all teach that the fire of hell is symbolic! This completely agrees with the truth of what Jude 7 is saying and refutes their view of annihilation. One minute they argue the fire is symbolic, then when they come to Jude 7 they argue, "see the fire is literal and it doesn't burn any more". Such flip flopping is the trade mark of false teachers that confuses their sorry disciples.

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Blessings in Heaven are the same duration as the punishment in hell.

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Heaven and Hell are same duration

Eternal/forever

Greek

Used of heaven

Used of hell

aion

Mt 25:46 but the righteous into life eternal.

  1. Mt 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
  2. 2 Thess 1:9 "these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord
  3. Mt 25:41 "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels"
  4. Jude 13 "for whom the black darkness has been reserved forever"

aionios

Lk 18:30 in the age to come, eternal life.

  1. Rev 14:11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; and they have no rest day and night
  2. Rev 20:10 they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Matthew 10:28 refutes annihilation

False Argument:

"God will destroy both body and soul in hell."

Refutation of Argument:

Jesus used two different Greek words to describe what man does and what God will do in hell. Man can kill

  

Mt 10:28

Lk 15:4

Lk 15:8

"And do not fear those who kill (apokteino) the body, but are unable to kill (apokteino) the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."

"What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost (apollumi) one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost (apollumi), until he finds it?

"Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?"

APOKTEINO

to kill

apollumi
(a) lose, (Suffer) loss, lost
(b) destroy, destroyer, destruction, destructive

The sheep, coin and soul continue to exist even though lost!

The fact that Jesus changed words in Mt 10:28, proves that there is a difference in what man can do to man and what God can do to man.

 

Mt 10:28

Lk 12:4-5

Man can kill the body

"And do not fear those who kill (apokteino) the body,

Lk 12:4-5 "And I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill (apokteino) the body

Man cannot kill the soul. Interesting, if hell is simply being thrown into a literal fire pit or dump, then why cannot man kill the soul. Why does God's act of throwing the same man into this same place destroy the soul? According to annihilationists, once man is killed, he ceases to exist. This proves that there is a conscious part of man that survives death.

but are unable to kill (apokteino) the soul;

and after that have no more that they can do.

God too can kill the body like man

-

"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who after He has killed (apokteino)

After the man is dead can cast into hell after judgement at the end of time. Notice that casting into hell in Luke is equated with the different Greek (apollumi) word in Matthew

but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell."

has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!

These two verses actually refute annihilation.

Notice that Jesus uses one Greek word (apokteino) for what man can do and another Greek word (apollumi) for what God does at the end of time in hell. If the Greek words were the same, then annihilationists would have a possible argument.

Notice that Luke 12 indicates that God can kill the body, then afterward cast into hell. Hell never means the grave. According to annihilationists, a man is destroyed 100% at death. This verse proves otherwise!

The word destroy (apollumi) in Mt 10:28 doesn't mean annihilation or a ceasing of existence.

Texts where (apollumi) is used:

Comment

Matthew 10:28 "And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy (apollumi) both soul and body in hell.

The Greek word, as proven below, does not mean annihilation, but a continuation of existence in a lost state or ruined state.

Mark 2:22 "And no one puts new wine into old wineskins; otherwise the wine will burst the skins, and the wine is lost (apollumi), and the skins as well; but one puts new wine into fresh wineskins."
Matt 9:17: "the wine pours out (apollumi)"

The wine, didn't cease to exist, it was simply spilt on the ground

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost (apollumi) sheep of the house of Israel."

The sheep that are "destroyed" or "lost" in fact represent the lost who walk the earth right now! They clearly exist!

Luke 15:4,6 "What man among you, if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them, does not leave the ninety-nine in the open pasture, and go after the one which is lost (apollumi), until he finds it?" ... "And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost (apollumi)!'

The sheep still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

Luke 15:8-9 "Or what woman, if she has ten silver coins and loses (apollumi) one coin, does not light a lamp and sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it? And when she has found it, she calls together her friends and neighbors, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have found the coin which I had lost (apollumi)!"

The coin still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

Luke 15:24,32 for this son of mine was dead, and has come to life again; he was lost (apollumi), and has been found.' And they began to be merry." ... "But we had to be merry and rejoice, for this brother of yours was dead and has begun to live, and was lost (apollumi) and has been found."

The son still existed even though "destroyed" (apollumi)

John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes (apollumi), but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man shall give to you, for on Him the Father, even God, has set His seal."

The food goes bad and is unusable, it doesn't cease to exist!

2 Co 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing (apollumi).

Notice, like the lost sheep, the lost are perishing (lost) NOW. This is present tense! They certainty exist even though perished!

2 Thess 1:9 And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power

(the word "apollumi" is NOT USED in 2 Thess 1:9)

Although the word "apollumi" is NOT USED in this verse, notice that hell is explained as being "away from God's presence and glory". This proves that hell is a banishment not an annihilation.

False argument refuted on Mt 10:28:

It is falsely argued by annihilationists, that in Mt 10:28 the word "apollumi" (Strongs #622) means to annihilate into non-existence because every other place this word is used in the TVM of #5658 (Tense - Aorist; Voice - Active; Mood - Infinitive) it means this. The truth is that we find most forms of the word used interchangeably. But remember they power of Mt 10:28 is that Jesus used two different words: Kill the body is all man can do, but destroy or "make lost" is what God does in Hell. Had Jesus used the same word in both instances, then annihilationists would have an argument because for them man can cause another man to cease to exist with a gun in the same way God can cause someone to cease to exist in Hell. But since two different words are used, our argument is powerful. Of course the most powerful argument we have is that only God can destroy the soul and man can only kill the body. The way annihilationists define man as a "mono-unit" of flesh alone, instead of a dichotomous combination of flesh and spirit like God, annihilationists simply cannot explain how man cannot kill the soul.

 

Here are the instanced in the Bible where "apollumi" is used in the TVM of #5658:

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5658 Aorist; Active; Infinitive: TO DESTROY

    • Mt 2:13 for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Mt 10:28 fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Mk 1:24 What do we have to do with You, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Lk 6:9 Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Lk 9:56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Lk 19:47 But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Jas 4:12 There is one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)
    • Lk. 6:9 "is it lawful on the Sabbath to do good, or to do harm, to save a life, or to destroy it?" (Strongs #622; TVM #5658)

But the difference between moods is irrelevant: Being in a state of destruction is equal to taking actions to bring someone into that state of destruction. So to say, "has lost" or "lose" or "had lost" are identical concepts as far as what the word itself means. The argument is invalid and displays a dismal understanding of simple Greek. With the same kind of Christadelphian reasoning, we could conclude that TVM 5660 only means "lost" since it is only used three times and each time it means "lost". Notice, however, that in Luke 9:25, the word LOST to denotes the equivalent to hell.

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5660 Aorist; Active; Participle: HAS LOST; LOSES

    • Matthew 10:39 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it."
    • Luke 15:4 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "if he has a hundred sheep and has lost one of them"
    • Luke 9:25 (5660 Aorist; Active; Participle) "For what is a man profited if he gains the whole world, and loses or forfeits himself?"

Yet we find both the Subjunctive and the Indicative mood forms of the word Apollumi using both LOST AND DESTROY. This proves the Christadelphian argument false.

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive: LOSE; LOSES; DESTROY

    • Matthew 16:25 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "whoever loses his life for My sake shall find it."
    • Luke 15:8 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "if she has ten silver coins and loses one coin"
    • Mt 12:14 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "counseled together against Him, as to how they might destroy Him"
    • John 10:10 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy"
    • John 6:39 (5661 Aorist; Active; Subjunctive) "all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day"

Apollumi #622 with TVM 5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative: HAD LOST; DESTROYED

    • Matthew 22:7 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "But the king was enraged and sent his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and set their city on fire"
    • Luke 15:9 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "I have found the coin which I had lost!"
    • Luke 17:29 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all"
    • Jude 5 (5656 Aorist; Active; Indicative) "after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe"

Here a couple of useful passages where the LXX uses the word:

  • Is. 43:28 - "and the rulers defiled my holy things and I have given to destroy Jacob and Israel unto a reproach." "destroy" is APOLESAI
  • Ezek. 30:11 - "to destroy the land" Here's something interesting - In Dan. 7:26 where the NAS has annihilated and destroyed, the LXX has AFANISAI and APOLESAI.

TVM Notes:

5656 Mood - Indicative The indicative mood is a simple statement of fact. If an action really occurs or has occurred or will occur, it will be rendered in the indicative mood. (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5658 Mood - Infinitive: The Greek infinitive mood in most cases corresponds to the English infinitive, which is basically the verb with "to" prefixed, as "to believe." Like the English infinitive, the Greek infinitive can be used like a noun phrase ("It is better to live than to die"), as well as to reflect purpose or result ("This was done to fulfil what the prophet said"). (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5660 Mood - Participle: The Greek participle corresponds for the most part to the English participle, reflecting "-ing" or "-ed" being suffixed to the basic verb form. The participle can be used either like a verb or a noun, as in English, and thus is often termed a "verbal noun.") (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

5661 Mood - Subjunctive The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances. Conditional sentences of the third class ("ean" + the subjunctive) are all of this type, as well as many commands following conditional purpose clauses, such as those beginning with "hina." (from: Logos Library systems: TVM)

 

 

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
The physical creation will be annihilated, not men!

  1. All Arians view that heaven is a physical restored paradise upon the earth. They have no concept of man's spiritual existence apart from the Gen 1:1 creation. Yet the Bible clearly teaches that the physical creation that occurred some 10,000 years ago in Gen 1:1, will be "uncreated" Just as the 103 (?) elements of the periodic table came into existence at creation, they will go into extinction at the second coming: 2 Pe 3:10. Our eternal reward is a spiritual existence in the spiritual presence of God in the realm He has always existed in before Gen 1:1.

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The wicked will not be annihilated But the heaven and earth will be annihilated!

W. E. Vine: LOU (3089) to loose, is used of the future demolition of the elements or heavenly bodies, 2 Pet. 3:10, 11, 12

2 Peter 3:6,9-12 "the world at that time was destroyed (Gr: apollumi), being flooded with water. ... The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish (Gr: apollumi) but for all to come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, in which the heavens will pass away with a roar and the elements will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) with intense heat, and the earth and its works will be burned up. 11 Since all these things are to be destroyed (Gr: LOU) in this way, what sort of people ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens will be destroyed (Gr: LOU) by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat!"

  1. This text provides a powerful argument for those who view the annihilation of men and the eternal continuity of the physical creation.
  2. Notice that 2 Pe 3 describes BOTH the "perishing (apollumi) of men" and "destruction (LOU) of creation".
  3. Two different words are used. Notice that "apollumi" is used to destruction of men and that LOU is used to describe the annihilation of the earth!
  4. But even better notice that the flood perished "apollumi" the earth in the time of Noah and a different Greek word is used for the annihilation "LOU" of the earth by fire!
  5. The conclusion is that "apollumi" describes not the annihilation, but "making lost" both men in hell and the earth at the Noaic flood and "LOU" describes the annihilation of the earth at the second coming!

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Heaven and hell are described in word pictures that are not to be taken literally
see the photo gallery of heaven and hell

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Heaven & Hell Are Spiritual not physical

  1. Heaven is "not of this creation": Hebrews 9:11,24
  2. God's future kingdom is "not of this world or realm": John 18:36
  3. Physical universe will be destroyed: 2 Peter 3:10; Revelation 20:11
  4. "Things seen are temporary, but things not seen are eternal": 2 Cor 4:18
  5. "The first things have passed away": Revelation 21:4
  6. Created things will be removed: Hebrews 12:25-27
  7. No longer any sea, night, sun or moon: Revelation 21:1,23; 22:5
  8. Heaven is in the very presence of the Father: John 13:36-14:6
  9. We hope to "enter within the veil" where God dwells: Heb 6:19-20;10:19-20
  10. We are earthbound guests with a heavenly destination: 1 Pe 1:17; Heb 13:14

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Misused Proof Texts exposed

Various other annihilation proof texts debunked:

Psalm 37:19-22 They will not be ashamed in the time of evil; And in the days of famine they will have abundance. But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish—like smoke they vanish away. The wicked borrows and does not pay back, But the righteous is gracious and gives. For those blessed by Him will inherit the land; But those cursed by Him will be cut off.

This Psalm isn't talking about eternal rewards and punishments at all. Rather is speaking about life on earth right now. Notice the context: "And in the days of famine they [righteous] will have abundance ... yet the wicked vanish like smoke" This vanishing takes place before resurrection. Are Annihilationists prepared to deny that the wicked are even raised? (Only a few isolated Christadelphian splinter groups would argue that the wicked dead are not raised! But then they must deal with Acts 24:15, "there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked." Neo-Sadduceeism is always full of contradictions with scripture wherever it turns!)

Malachi 4:1-3 "For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze," says the Lord of hosts, "so that it will leave them neither root nor branch." "But for you who fear My name the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. "And you will tread down the wicked, for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing," says the Lord of hosts.

This speaking of the time when Jesus would come. Notice v4 that Elijah (John the baptist) would come at the same time. It is not speaking of the final judgement. It also employs the same kind of word pictures typical of heaven and hell. This verse is no more literal than the imagery of Gehenna!

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Word Studies!

Studies of words that annihilationists misuse to teach extinction:

These words do not teach annihilation!

"The annihilationists assemble a multitude of texts which in reality are either taken out of context or based on the false assumption that such words as 'perish' automatically and necessarily always mean annihilation." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 119- 120)

destroy
perish
consumed
devoured

1. "Destroy": For example, in the Old Testament, the word ahvad is the word which is usually translated as "destroy." In Num. 21:29, the people of Chemosh were "undone" ("destroyed" in NIV). In the context, the meaning of ahvad is that the people were conquered and sold into slavery. They were not annihilated but enslaved. In 1 Sa. 9:3, 20, Saul's asses were ahvad, i.e., lost. These asses were not annihilated, but lost. In Psalms 31:12, an ahvad vessel is merely broken, not annihilated. In Hab. 1:15, the word Gah rar means to catch something in a net, not to annihilate it. Dah chah in Isa. 53:10 is translated, " It pleased the Lord to bruise him.". Here it refers to Christ's sufferings, not to nonexistence. In Hosea 4:6, God's people are "destroyed" for lack of knowledge. In the context, this cannot mean that they were nonexistent. The same can be pointed out in the case of hoom (Ps. 55:2) and ghah ram (Josh. 6:8; Mic. 4:13). In the Greek, apollumi is used to describe ruined wineskins, lost sheep, and spoiled food (Matt. 9:17; 15:24; John 6:27). Apolia in Mark 14:4 refers to wasted perfume. Diapthero refers to moth-eaten cloth in Luke 12:33 katheiresis to the pulling down of a fortress (2 Cor. 10:4) kataluo refers to lodging for the night (Luke 9:12) kataryco to a fig tree which "encumbered the ground" (Luke 13:7); luo refers to putting off one's shoes (Acts 7:33); portheo refers to persecuting the church in Gal. 1:13; phthiro refers to defiling the temple of God in 1 Cor. 3:17. The assumption that the words "destroy" and "destruction" automatically mean annihilation is not good English, much less good Hebrew or Greek. We can think of someone being "destroyed" or "wiped out" in an emotional sense without implying that the person has ceased to exist. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)

2. "Perish" or "perished." In various forms the word "perish" appears 152 times in the KJV. In the Old Testament, there are 11 Hebrew words which are translated as "perish." The main word ahvad is the same word which is frequently translated as "destroy." We have already seen that it is erroneous to assume that ahvad means annihilation. Sha mad is found in Jer. 48:42 where Moab is said to be destroyed in the sense of the people being enslaved, not annihilated. Shah rhath is used of ruined girdles and vessels in Jer. 13:7; 18:4; kah rath is used of cutting a covenant or cutting timber to build the temple in Gen. 15:18; 1 Kings 5:6; eah vag. nah phal, and gah var are used to describe a miserable emotional state (Ps. 42:7; 55:4, 88:15,16). In the New Testament, there are ten different Greek words which are translated "perish." Some of these words such as apollumi were also translated as destroy and do not mean annihilation. Apothneesko is used in John 12:24 to describe the grain of wheat which when planted "dies" and then sprouts. Obviously, it cannot mean annihilation. Aphanrzo refers to things which moths and rust can "corrupt" (Matt. 6:19,20). Kataphthiro is used to describe "corrupt" minds in 2 Tim. 3:8 (KJV). Even in English we speak of fruit as "perishable" in the sense that it can spoil. Burned out light bulbs have "perished." In neither case is annihilation intended. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)

3. "Consume" or "consumed.": Forms of these words appear in the KJV 162 times. In the Old Testament, 20 different Hebrew words are translated as "consume." The usual word, ah chal is also used in Ps. 78:45 where the psalmist says that the flies "devoured" or consumed the Egyptians. The psalmist surely means that the flies tormented them, not annihilated them. Jeremiah used another word, bah lah, in Lam. 3:4, saying that his flesh and skin were "made old," or consumed, i.e., he was consumed with grief, not annihilated. Kah lah is used in Ezek. 13:13 where hailstones "consumed" a wall, i.e., knocked it down, not annihilated it. Dah gach is the normal word for putting out a fire. When we "put out a candle," we do not annihilate the candle. Even in English we speak of people being consumed with "grief, greed or lust," yet we do not mean that the person has ceased to exist. We have demonstrated that the annihilationists are in error when they arbitrarily assume and then assert that such words as "perish" necessarily mean annihilation. Once this point is granted, one is no longer impressed by such works as Froom where hundreds of quotes from biblical and extra-biblical literature are given to prove conditionalism simply upon the erroneous assumption that the mere presence of such words in the text means that the authors believed in annihilationism. ("Death and The Afterlife" by Robert Morey, p. 108-111)

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Annihilation vs. Eternal conscious torment
Is eternal conscious torment a pagan false doctrine and a Jewish fable?
Here we document that annihilationists all accept that the view we have proven true, namely eternal conscious torment, was widely believed in the ancient world. They argue that Jesus borrowed from these false pagan doctrines in his teaching on hell. We reject this, as it would mean that Jesus promoted false doctrine. As the spiritual eyes into the spirit world, we believe that Jesus' teaching on eternal conscious torment is not untrue, simply because other cultures had similar views!

Introductory comment:

  1. To think that Christ was ignorant of what Gehenna meant to the common people of His day or to assume that He was mistaken in using the rabbinic descriptions of Gehenna is to do great injustice to Him who was the greatest teacher who ever lived. Indeed, the mere fact that Christ utilized the rabbinic language connected with Gehenna, such as "unquenchable fire" and "never- dying worms," demonstrates beyond all doubt to any reasonable person that he deliberately used the word Gehenna to impress upon his hearers that eternal punishment awaits the wicked after the resurrection. No other conclusion is possible.
  2. The greatest problem that Annihilationists face when examining the intertestamental (between the Old & New Testaments) literature, is that the doctrines of the existence of the soul after death and eternal punishing are often manifest, with no "introduction" as would be required by a "new teaching." The Annihilationist view is that between the Old and New Testaments, Platonic philosophy infiltrated true Bible doctrine and entirely new concepts were introduced to replace the old beliefs about the soul and punishment. Yet, strangely lacking are any evidences of controversy in this area of belief. The Annihilationist answer to that would be that there was evidence of a difference of belief in the intertestamental writings. But since they can produce no actual apologetic or actual conflict from the historical records, they must argue from the silence of some intertestamental writers, who may discuss the future of the righteous without mentioning the wicked. Sometimes, as in the case of Fudge's and the Adventist Froom's quoting from Tobit, where it says that the unrighteous shall cease from all the earth, they claim that that proves the writer did not believe in eternal punishing. That is indeed a poor argument.

Robert Morey, Dualist, comments:

  1. First, Gehenna is the place of judgement (Matt. 23:33). He even used the rabbinic expression, "the judgement of Gehenna" (Bab. Tal. ER126).
  2. Second, Gehenna is always placed at the end of the world after the resurrection (Matt. 5:22; 23:33). This was expounded by John in Rev. 20:1-15. This was also the rabbinic position (Mid. Gen. 159).
  3. Third, Gehenna is the place where the body as well as the soul is punished (Matt. 5:22; 10:28; Mark 9:43-48). The rabbis saw that the resurrection of the wicked was necessary in order for them to receive their full punishment in the body (Mid. Gen. 159; 211n4).
  4. Fourth, Gehenna was the place of conscious torment. When Christ used the phrases "unquenchable fire" and "never-dying worms" (Mark 9:47,48, author's paraphrase), He was utilizing biblical (Isa 66:24), apocryphal (Judith XVI:17), and talmudic (Mid. Gen. 214) images which all meant conscious suffering. The annihilationists have a counter argument at this point. They point out that, literally speaking, while the worms and the fire in a city dump may destroy a dead carcass, it cannot be said that the dead carcass feels any torment. Therefore, they conclude that Christ's language must be interpreted to mean that the wicked will be annihilated, not tormented. The problem with this interpretation is that it fails to take into account that when Christ spoke of Gehenna in such terms as "worms and fire," He was clearly using rabbinic phraseology. Thus, it is more crucial to discover how these words were understood in rabbinic literature than by pointing to modern city dumps. The intertestamental literature is clear that the Jews believed that the departed could feel what was happening to their dead body. Indeed, when the worms start gnawing on the body, "the worms are as painful to the dead as a needle in the flesh of the living" (Bab. Tal. Shah. 777,778). Since the "gnawing worms" clearly meant conscious torment in rabbinic thought, the annihilationist's argument is invalid due to their ignorance of the meaning of such rabbinic terminology. That Judith XVI:17 also teaches conscious torment is clear.
  5. Fifth, the wicked are cast into Gehenna and will remain there for all eternity (Matt. 5:29,30). In Gehenna, the wicked are "destroyed" (Matt. 10:28). That the word "destroyed" (apollumi) does not mean "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence" is clear from the rabbinic meaning of the word, the lexicographical significance of the word, and the way the word is used in the New Testament. Thaver's Greek-English Lexicon defines apollumi as "to be delivered up to eternal misery" (p.36). Since Thayer himself was a Unitarian who did not believe in eternal punishment, his definition could only be the result of his knowledge of the meaning of his Greek word. There is no lexicographical evidence for the annihilationist's position that apollumi means "to annihilate" or "to pass into nonexistence." (Death and The Afterlife, Robert Morey, Dualist, p. 89, 90)
More info http://www.nonsda.org/study12.shtml http://www.bibleprobe.com/SDA.htm http://defendingcontending.com/2009/01/03/seventh-day-adventism-exposed/
20 posted on 10/17/2012 6:18:07 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: TigerClaws

And most Christians do not beleive it is God who tortures people in hell. Who is it that does that to people on earth and in hell? A lot of Christians don’t beleive in or that there is a force in opposition to God that struggles for their worship and souls and therefore, they don’t beleive in hell, either.

The God Jesus talked about and demonstrated to mankind is the opposite of hell’s god. The place of God is opposite of hell’s god. People have the free will of which force they folllow and worship.

This is why I can never understand people who experience or see evil on earth and get mad at God as if He did it to them. That is up-side-down to me.


21 posted on 10/17/2012 6:18:51 PM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Without Hell, what unpleasantry is there to be saved from?
Eternal annihilation, ceasing of existence, is something many have no fear of: what is there to fear in simple absence? was there something unpleasant about your non-existence before conception?


22 posted on 10/17/2012 6:22:15 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Rosencrantz: Do you ever think of yourself as actually dead, lying in a box with the lid on it? Nor do I really. Silly to be depressed by it. I mean, one thinks of it like being alive in a box. One keeps forgetting to take into account that one is dead. Which should make all the difference. Shouldn’t it? I mean, you’d never know you were in a box would you? It would be just like you were asleep in a box. Not that I’d like to sleep in a box, mind you. Not without any air. You’d wake up dead for a start and then where would you be? In a box. That’s the bit I don’t like, frankly. That’s why I don’t think of it. Because you’d be helpless wouldn’t you? Stuffed in a box like that. I mean, you’d be in there forever. Even taking into account the fact that you’re dead. It isn’t a pleasant thought. Especially if you’re dead, really. Ask yourself: if I asked you straight off I’m going to stuff you in this box now – would you rather to be alive or dead?
Naturally you’d prefer to be alive. Life in a box is better than no life at all. I expect. You’d have a chance at least. You could lie there thinking, well, at least I’m not dead. In a minute, somebody’s going to bang on the lid and tell me to come out. (knocks) “Hey you! What’s your name? Come out of there!”

- Rosencrantz & Guildenstern Are Dead, by Tom Stoppard


23 posted on 10/17/2012 6:24:54 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: HerrBlucher
Actually, you are wrong about what you think Jesus has said about Hell and about what the Bible overall teaches about Hell and eternity. I don't have a lot of time tonight to go into all of this but here are a few quick keys.

One: Hell is not eternal. Hell is real and is the place where the lost will go UNTIL the great white throne Judgement. At that point they will be judged and then destroyed in the Lake of Fire along with death and Hell. This is what is called the second death or the death (ellimination or ending) of the soul.

Rev. 20:13-14 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Second, in order to be tortured forever you would have to be alive in some form forever which requires one to be immortal. We ONLY recieve or "put on" immortality when we accept Christ.

1Cr 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

When John 3:16 says that whoever accepts Jesus will recieve everlasting life, it is prefaced against the backdrop that those who don't die. Everlasting torture is not death. Death is and has always been an ending. The first death is the death of our earthly body. The second death, which only the unsaved will see, is the death or ending of their soul.

One more thing to think about...if the wages of sin is actually being tortured forever, then Jesus did not pay the price for sin because Jesus wasn't tortured forever. However, if the penalty for sin is the death of our physical bodies, then Jesus did indeed suffer that. There is much more in this article which examines all the verses dealing with hell and the eternity of the unbeliever. I encourage all to read it. It opened my eyes to what the plain truth of what Scripture actually says and not what some people have been told that it says.

http://jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php
24 posted on 10/17/2012 6:34:30 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: frogjerk
So any real comparison to anything on earth is lacking.

Lacking - like a sense of humor.

25 posted on 10/17/2012 6:35:01 PM PDT by Sirius Lee (Tequila can hurt but it wasn't designed to kill you. Taqiyya is.)
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To: frogjerk
Wrong. Purgatory is where the souls that are bound for Heaven undergo a purification, not torture, because "nothing impure can enter Heaven"

First, there is no purgatory mentioned in the Bible.

Second, Christ's death is sufficient to cover ALL of our sins. The idea of purgatory is basically saying that we still have to somehow "earn" our way into heaven. WRONG! It is by Christ's stripes alone that we are saved.
26 posted on 10/17/2012 6:38:34 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ScubieNuc

Sorry, but Jesus used the word everlasting in relation to hell several times. He either said it and meant it, or he didn’t say it, or he said it and did not mean it, or he lied. Take your pick.


27 posted on 10/17/2012 6:39:30 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: frogjerk; metmom; boatbums; caww; presently no screen name; smvoice; HarleyD; HossB86; wmfights; ...
Wrong. Purgatory is where the souls that are bound for Heaven undergo a purification, not torture, because "nothing impure can enter Heaven"

This is open to interpretation, and some descriptions assert torment: “It is a divinely revealed truth that sins bring punishments inflicted by God's sanctity and justice. These must be expiated [atoned, be compensated] either on this earth through the sorrows, miseries and calamities of this life and above all through death, or else in the life beyond through fire and torments or 'purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

“I answer that, In Purgatory there will be a twofold pain; one will be the pain of loss, namely the delay of the divine vision, and the pain of sense, namely punishment by corporeal fire. With regard to both the least pain of Purgatory surpasses the greatest pain of this life… Therefore it follows that the pain of Purgatory, both of loss and of sense, surpasses all the pains of this life “(Aquinas T. The Summa Theologica of St. Thomas Aquinas, Appendix I, Article 1.).

As for nothing unclean, that is why Scripture teaches that believers are washed by faith (1Cor. 6:11) and only plainly teaches that they go to be with the Lord after death or when the Lord returns, if their faith is an obedient kind. . And i have dealt with those who extrapolate Rome's tradition of purgatory (which the Orthodox overall reject) out of some texts, as in this FR thread here or 1Cor. 3 (see here)

28 posted on 10/17/2012 6:46:19 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: HerrBlucher

Pick your verses, post them and I’ll show you where your context is wrong.

Basically the result of rejecting Jesus is eternal or everlasting in nature, but the punishING does not go on forever. The ONLY ones that appear to suffer forever, according to Revelation is the Devil, the anti-christ and the false prophet. Read Revelation and notice what it says and the order and context in which it says it.

Once your soul is destroyed it stays that way forever, therefore that punishment has eternal consequences.


29 posted on 10/17/2012 6:46:25 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ctdonath2

First, accept the Bible on what it says and the clear weight of the evidence is that there is not an eternal punishING.

Second, do you want your children to love you and spend time with you learning about life and the world because they choose to believe in you or would you rather have your kids cling to you out of fear that you will torture them? God is our Heavenly Father and He wants to commune with us but he gives us the option to choose to want to commune with him. If we reject Jesus, then we choose death which is eternal separation from God.


30 posted on 10/17/2012 6:55:24 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ScubieNuc

See the link for the verses. Have at it.

http://thetruth-blog.blogspot.com/2011/01/what-did-jesus-say-about-hell.html?m=1


31 posted on 10/17/2012 6:56:31 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: TigerClaws

Indeed, Jesus did not come to condemn, but to save ourselves from our own foolishness and evil bipolar intents which condemned us in the first place.

To be away from God is to be in hell, and it is as simple as that. Thus, to condemn the Holy Spirit was the last thing to do.

The sinner is bad enough, as he or she is an emergency shelter seeker, usually repenting at the last minute. However, the language that condemns Jesus and rejects the holy spirit is torture.

Christianity knew of Jungian projection and demonic possessions which accused Jesus far before Jung talked about projection himself, or, rather, the limited worldview dominating the perceptions of the us vs. them, projecting into them what we would do if we were them for lack of better alternative thinking, because of blindness.


32 posted on 10/17/2012 7:00:54 PM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrats Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: HerrBlucher

Look, we can play battling links, but that won’t really get anywhere. I posted a link also, which addressed all of those verses and the context in which they are given. If you don’t want to read that, fine, but don’t expect me to disect a long blog on Freerepublic.

I will just reference you back to my first post. I used to preach an eternal Hell and I know all of the verses dealing with Hell/Hades/Ghalena/Sheol/etc. but like you, I just parroted what others had told me without really reading what those verses really said. In the end you can not find ANYWHERE in the Bible where we are immortal before accepting Christ. Second, you can’t ignore what Revelation says about the destruction of Hell and all that were in it in the Lake of Fire.

Now, maybe it’s too hard for you to accept what the Bible lays out right now. I understand. Many good Christians have been mislead on this doctrine, but I am thoroughly convinced after much reading and studying of the Bible that the eternity for the unbeliever is complete and total ellimination in the Lake of Fire. Now that doesn’t mean that they won’t suffer for a time in Hell, but that time is finite and will end.


33 posted on 10/17/2012 7:06:36 PM PDT by ScubieNuc (When there is no justice in the laws, justice is left to the outlaws.)
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To: ScubieNuc

Hey, I would prefer that the Hell not be eternal, actually, I would prefer that it not exist at all, and if it does, that the souls in it have a chance to escape. The passages in the Bible where Jesus talks about eternal hell are a major turn off. I would also prefer that God approve of every fun thing I want to do, or at least understand that when I sin I always have a good excuse. But what I prefer and what is true are obviously two different things.

We can argue what the Bible says and actually means ad infinitum. That is the reason why there are so many protestant sects, each claims to have the real Truth. I call that chaos. Believe what you will, what is true is true. We are not obligated to believe one way or the other about Hell, only to be obedient to God.


34 posted on 10/17/2012 7:27:52 PM PDT by HerrBlucher (Praise to the Lord the Almighty the King of Creation)
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To: ScubieNuc

“do you want your children to love you and spend time with you learning about life and the world because they choose to believe in you or would you rather have your kids cling to you out of fear that you will torture them?”

Continuing your line of reasoning: I don’t want to be a parent who would “put them out of their misery”.


35 posted on 10/17/2012 7:27:58 PM PDT by ctdonath2 ($1 meals: http://abuckaplate.blogspot.com)
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To: TigerClaws

Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing. “The Fire that Consumes” is one of the best books on this subject, by Edward Budge, I believe.


36 posted on 10/17/2012 7:31:53 PM PDT by Tennessean4Bush (An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist fears this is true.)
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To: ScubieNuc
The word "purgatory" comes from Latin. Not surprising that it's not in a book written in Hebrew and Greek, anymore than is "Incarnation," another theological term-of-art derived from Latin.

But the concept is certainly there when Paul speaks of those "saved, but as through fire" and when 2 Maccabees attests to the Jewish practice -- which continues today -- of prayer for the dead.

And you're wrong -- nobody in purgatory is "earning their way into heaven," because they already possess it.

37 posted on 10/17/2012 7:33:29 PM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
Matt. 19

[20] The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

[21] Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

[22] But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

[23] Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

[24] And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

____________________________________________________________

Jesus says the same in Luke and Mark - that the rich must sell all their possessions and give it to the poor. The rich guy would not part with all of his wealth, so he couldn't follow Jesus. This is a real time eyewitness account of an event, not a parable. The meaning could not be more clear.

So to those who believe eternal torment is real, have you sold your possessions and given it to the poor yet? If not, then when will you?

38 posted on 10/17/2012 7:34:59 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

‘This tortuous existence ‘

Pretty much ended his crediblility right there. Writer doesn’t know definitions of simple words, much less definition of Scripture.


39 posted on 10/17/2012 7:39:23 PM PDT by Chaguito
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it would have been better if he’d never been born.


40 posted on 10/17/2012 7:39:31 PM PDT by campaignPete R-CT (campaigning for local conservatives)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

‘This tortuous existence ‘

Pretty much ended his crediblility right there. Writer doesn’t know definitions of simple words, much less definition of Scripture.


41 posted on 10/17/2012 7:40:04 PM PDT by Chaguito
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To: HerrBlucher




Sorry, but Jesus used the word everlasting in relation to hell several times. He either said it and meant it, or he didn’t say it, or he said it and did not mean it, or he lied. Take your pick.

Indeed. In the spiritual realm everlasting means just that. But then there is the annihilationists version:

The Word of God

The annihilationists version

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. " (Revelation 20:10)

"And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet — were burned up — and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever — which means for about a moment." (Revelation 20:10)

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented — for a moment — with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night — because they no longer exist — who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. " (Revelation 14:10-11)

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: " (Matthew 25:41)

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire — which you experience for a moment — prepared for the devil and his angels:”

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46)

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment — by just being burned up and delivered from experiencing everlasting punished — but the righteous into life eternal — which means experiencing it." (Matthew 25:46)

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction — by ceasing to exist — from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (2 Thessalonians 1:9)

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." (Mark 9:47-48)

"And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire — and be burnt up — : Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched — but you will cease to exist." (Mark 9:47-48)

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23) [Note that Jesus parables do not use real names, and use real physical realities to correspond to spiritual ones]

"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments — which unlike my other stories, is science fiction because the dead spiritually know nothing — and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. " (Luke 16:22-23)

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. " (Luke 16:24)

"And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame — .which ongoing torment is not real." (Luke 16:24)

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. " (Luke 16:28)

"For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment — even though they will only experience annihilation." (Luke 16:28)




42 posted on 10/17/2012 8:09:23 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: HerrBlucher

And ReligiousLiberty.TV is another SDA front.


43 posted on 10/17/2012 8:14:00 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

There is a heaven and there is a hell and there is a Purgatory.

Are you aware that the references to hell are in the Bible MORE than the references to heaven?

Look up
hell
Gehenna
Sheol
Hades
underworld
netherworld

and I am sure someone will add another word here.


44 posted on 10/17/2012 9:37:15 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
The Hell of It. A Short Teaching on Hell
Dream of Saint John Bosco: to Hell and Back

Archbishop Chaput addresses the reality of Satan
Letter from Beyond
Catholic Word of the Day: GEHENNA (Hinnom, 10-17-11
To hell with Hell?
Gehenna
Hell Has to Be
The eternity of hell
Hell Is Not Empty and Pedophile Priests Will Go There" (Why Preaching on Hell is Salutary)
The Eternity of Hell
The Four Last Things: Hell

Catholic Caucus: HELL EXISTS AND WE MIGHT GO THERE!
John Calvin’s Worst Heresy: That Christ Suffered in Hell
Natural Calamities Divine Threats & Four Gates of Hell The four Principal Gates of Hell : I Hatred
Pope speaks with priests from his diocese about Heaven and Hell
Whatever Became of Hell? (HAS THE UNQUENCHABLE FIRE BEEN QUENCHED )
One Man's Visit to Hell
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 11: Hell
A Question Of Hell (One Minister Questions Its Existence)
Pope says hell and damnation are real and eternal
The fires of Hell are real and eternal, Pope warns

The Early Church Fathers on Hell - Catholic/Orthodox Caucus
IS THE NEW MASS ‘SOFT ON HELL’?
Heaven and hell seem to be forgotten
Which circle of Hell do You belong in?
"To Hell with Hell!": The Spiritual Dumbing Down of the Generations
Reflecting on Hell: Sermon for the First Sunday in Advent
The Reality of Satan and the Victory of Jesus and Mary (an Exorcist speaks out)
Beware the Serpent’s Promises
Americans Describe Their Views About Life After Death(Only One 1/2 of 1% Think They Are Hell-Bound)
Sister Faustina's Vision of Hell

45 posted on 10/17/2012 9:38:41 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV

Hell is scrolling through pages and pages of text and undisplayed illustrations, cut and pasted from somewhere, all of which read by no one including the poster himself.


46 posted on 10/17/2012 9:41:24 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong! Ice cream is delicious!)
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To: Revolting cat!

Groan! You are right.


47 posted on 10/18/2012 12:07:21 AM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: PastorBooks

But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.


48 posted on 10/18/2012 12:09:31 AM PDT by BlackVeil
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To: BlackVeil

“But in the parable of Lazarus, it is said of the living “they have Moses and the Prophets” to save them from Hell.”

When Jesus said that He hadn’t yet risen from the dead. It was too early to believe on Him for salvation. Moses and the Prophets looked forward to His time, when He would lay down His life for us.

All we have to do is surrender to Him, ask Him to forgive us and trust Him that He will, and He will give us His Spirit and eternal life.


49 posted on 10/18/2012 12:32:49 AM PDT by PastorBooks
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To: ReligiousLibertyTV
Do you accept the Old Testament accounts of the invasion of Canna?
50 posted on 10/18/2012 5:27:58 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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