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Purgatory is Rooted in a Promise
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | November 1, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer

I have blogged before on Purgatory. For example here: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also provided a PDF document on the Biblical roots of the teaching here: PDF Document on Purgatory .

On this Feast of All Souls I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to think of it in terms of promise, purity and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises to them perfected in purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.

What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect. Now in this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: that we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.

St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace and her account of it is related in her Dialogue. It is here summarized In the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:

The Soul in the State of Grace- Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.” [1].

Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.

So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?” God has made you a promise. But what if it is not yet fulfilled and you were to die today without the divine perfection you are promised yet completed? I can only say for myself that, if I were to die today, as far as I know I am not aware of mortal sin. But I am also aware of not being perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of the heavenly Father!

But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper!. St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I have a long way to go. God is very holy and his perfection is beyond imagining.

Yes, there are many things in us that need purging. Sins, and attachments to sin. Worldly clingings, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows and disappointments. We cannot take any of this to heaven with us. It wouldn’t be heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to his promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corithians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested and that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).

Purgatory has to be – Yes, gold, pure gold, refined, perfect and pure gold. Purgatory has to be if God’s promises are to hold.

Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.

Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because perfection promised us is real: Esse quam videri (To be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin and sorrows. And, having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter heaven of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).

How could it be anything less? – Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on the promise of Jesus and the power of his blood to accomplished complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity, this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises not mere punishments. There’s an old Gospel hymn that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and half won’t do!”

That’s right, 99 1/2 won’t do. Nothing less than 100 is possible since we have the promise of Jesus and the wonder working power of the precious blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, purgatory has to be.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: purgatory
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1 posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:26 AM PDT by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Ping!


2 posted on 11/02/2012 4:51:05 AM PDT by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
And Jesus replied, "By their fruits shall you know them."

;-\

3 posted on 11/02/2012 5:12:21 AM PDT by Gargantua ("Barbie O'Bunga ~ America's First Fly-Strewn, Maggot-Gagging Fag President")
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To: NYer
The concocted; unBiblical idea of "Purgatory" is just another of man's inventions in his quest to try to save himself. If "Purgatory" is real, why isn't it mentioned specifically in the Bible? If "Purgatory", the idea that man can finally be made perfect, is real ... then why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins? I suggest you go back and re-read Ephesians 1 to understand God's plan. Man cannot save himself. "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away ." Isaiah 64:6 (Emphasis mine) Any attempt by man to justify himself with his own acts of righteousness is a slap in the face to a Holy God who sacrificed His own Son so that He could re-establish fellowship with His fallen creations. Jesus is either all-sufficient, or the Bible is only a clever compilation of stories, and we can make up what we want as long as it makes us feel good about ourselves. May God illuminate our hearts and minds to His true Word.
4 posted on 11/02/2012 5:26:21 AM PDT by Swashbuckler99
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To: NYer

Luke 23:43 And Jesus said to him, Amen I say to you, this day you shall be with me in Paradise.


5 posted on 11/02/2012 5:31:04 AM PDT by dangerdoc (see post #6)
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amazing the utter inability of folks to understand the biblical roots of purgatory....

the usual ‘why isnt the word mentioned’ (of course, the word ‘bible’, or words ‘scripture alone’, or ‘faith alone’ are nvr mentioned, nor is ‘trinity’, but im sure they can make excuses for that...

thank goodness we catholics have the historical church, the word of God and his Sacred Tradition.

It all comes together as one when you look at it that way.....


6 posted on 11/02/2012 5:35:43 AM PDT by raygunfan
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amazing the utter inability of folks to understand the biblical roots of purgatory....

the usual ‘why isnt the word mentioned’ (of course, the word ‘bible’, or words ‘scripture alone’, or ‘faith alone’ are nvr mentioned, nor is ‘trinity’, but im sure they can make excuses for that...)

thank goodness we catholics have the historical church, the word of God and his Sacred Tradition.

It all comes together as one when you look at it that way.....


7 posted on 11/02/2012 5:35:58 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: Swashbuckler99

You wrote:

“If “Purgatory” is real, why isn’t it mentioned specifically in the Bible?”

Why isn’t the Trinity specifically mentioned? Why isn’t the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible? Why aren’t we specifically told in the Bible that Matthew wrote a gospel?

“If “Purgatory”, the idea that man can finally be made perfect, is real ... then why did Jesus need to die on the cross for our sins?”

(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death is what powers Purgatory, right? Thus, your question mnakes no sense. Purgatory could not exist without Jesus’ death on the cross.

“I suggest you go back and re-read Ephesians 1 to understand God’s plan. Man cannot save himself.”

I suggest you learn what Purgatory is before you post about it. Clearly, from your questions and suggestion, you do not know what it is.

“May God illuminate our hearts and minds to His true Word.”

May God teach you enough humility to look up what a doctrine actually is before you start posting against it on the internet. That would make you not only more knowledgable, but less foolish looking.


8 posted on 11/02/2012 5:41:32 AM PDT by vladimir998
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To: NYer

After years of working to heal and release earthbound spirits that no longer have a physical body, I am convinced that purgatory is right here.


9 posted on 11/02/2012 5:45:40 AM PDT by tired&retired
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To: NYer

Thanks for posting this.

Many people are confused about what it is and think it is a sleeping period before being resurrected.

I have a friend who is Catholic, I am not, and I have attempted to explain this many times. For some reason, she is stuck on this head thought that as a Baptist(Protestant) we are completely different.

I of course see us all as part of the larger part of the body of Christ and since I was young and having gone to missionary school I probably read and understood quite a bit more of Biblical intention than many.

Not that I am any thing close to a theologian.

I am going to forward this to her and since it’s fairly concise perhaps it will be informative.

It is interesting that the Mormons have a similar process in their belief system but, it extends to all who are dead and will be given the opportunity to convert to Mormonism. Also interesting in that they have a “prayers for the dead” ritual which makes the unliving Mormons.


10 posted on 11/02/2012 5:55:33 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Swashbuckler99
I wrote a detailed reply to you, but my tablet ate it. :-(

However, the short answer to your objection is that nobody in purgatory is "saving themselves" because all of them are already saved. Only saved people even get to purgatory. Purgatory is where the elect of God complete their sanctification before entering His presence.

11 posted on 11/02/2012 6:02:29 AM PDT by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Swashbuckler99

I understand your point, but respectfully disagree.

So far as things being specifically mentioned in the Bible, you may want to consider Deuteronomy 22:13-28.


12 posted on 11/02/2012 6:36:23 AM PDT by GalaxyAB
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To: Vendome
It is interesting that the Mormons have a similar process in their belief system but, it extends to all who are dead and will be given the opportunity to convert to Mormonism.

Many years ago, I worked for an international airline and my manager was a Mormon. Having been educated in catholic schools for 12 years, I thought I knew my faith until he challenged me on certain doctrines. What riled me up, however, was the Mormon church's plan to amass the birth records of every human being so they could baptize them in the Mormon church.

Several weeks ago, while listening to one of the readings in my catholic church, I was taken aback to hear this practice of baptizing the dead, goes back to the very early church. See 1 Corinthians 15:29. Perhaps that is the genesis of the Mormon practice.

13 posted on 11/02/2012 6:50:14 AM PDT by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: raygunfan
amazing the utter inability of folks to understand the biblical roots of purgatory....

That's because there is no such thing as biblical roots of purgatory...It's an invention of your religion...

What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect.

That's not at all what Jesus said...Your religion always has to pervert scripture to try to validate it's traditions...

Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

That's what the scripture 'really' says...There no promise there...There's no promise that Jesus was giving...It's a command...

It's a command for you and me to do something, not a promise...Surely anyone who would bother to look at the actual scripture could see that...

St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me.

More bible perversion...This is the real verse...

Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Nothing at all about completing a good work...The verse says Jesus began the good work and He will perform the good work until Jesus Christ shows up...

The entire article is a perversion of the scriptures to try to validate another false teaching of the Catholic religion...

Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.

There is no way either you or I will attain our own righteousness...The best righteousness you will ever attain is a garbage heap to God...

The only righteousness we have is what Jesus gave to us, which is correctly defined as 'imputed'...We have no righteousness of our own...It's a free, undeserved gift...

There is no purgatory...

When we die, it's over...Our bodies as living Christians are corrupt, but our souls have been made perfect...If your soul isn't perfect in God's eyes when your body falls off of it, your soul ain't going up...

14 posted on 11/02/2012 6:58:33 AM PDT by Iscool (You mess with me, you mess with the WHOLE trailerpark...)
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To: vladimir998

You wrote:

“Why isn’t the Trinity specifically mentioned? Why isn’t the Bible specifically mentioned in the Bible? Why aren’t we specifically told in the Bible that Matthew wrote a gospel?”

You’re making a logical fallacy - false comparison. You’re attempting to equate non-Doctrinal terms with a Doctrinal term. While the Trinity (as a doctrine) is not called “the Trinity” in scripture, we see its definition over and over again in the term “Godhead” (Acts 17, Romans 1, Col 2). We see Jesus Christ telling his disciples to baptise them “in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost” (Mat 28:19-20). What we do not see is any reference, directly, to any ‘supernatural realm’ called Purgatory. Your other two rhetorical questions fail to substantiate your point by the same faulty reasoning.

“(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death is what powers Purgatory, right? Thus, your question mnakes (sic) no sense. Purgatory could not exist without Jesus’ death on the cross.”

(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death and resurrection is what NEGATES THE POSSIBILITY of “Purgatory”, right?

‘Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;’ (2 Cor 3:5)
‘And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.’ (2 Cor 12:9)
...and...
‘And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:’ (Hebrews 9:27) Note that it doesn’t say, ‘after this, the Purgatory’ or anything like it.

If you really want to get into it, look at the theological reasons behind why God commanded the Old Testament Israelites to make sacrifices for their sins. They purified themselves, came to the high priest, confessed their sins, made their sacrifice, and went their way. They did NOT enter into a special area or ritual to then flense themselves or otherwise try to add anything to the atonement process. When Christ died on the cross, He became our sacrifice. We either accept that, or we do not. Christ, while He was dying for my sins and yours, uttered seven recorded statements. The last one was, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and not “I’m done here, but you still need to atone for your sins to be made perfect.”

This is, essentially, the same old ‘Catholic vs. other Christian beliefs’ argument that has existed since the the years after Christ’s ascension and the church began to spread. Christ is either God (i.e. part of the triune Godhead) or He is not. Therefore, His death was either all-sufficient, or it was not. Man, however, keeps wanting to add to this - hence the idea of Purgatory, because salvation by the remission of sins apparently doesn’t clean us up enough to stand before a Holy God. Guess what? NOTHING that we attempt to do, no “pennance”, no amount of time to correct our wrongs, no matter how sorry we are ... nothing can ever be enough to get us to a point where our righteousness is enough to stand in God’s presence. It is ONLY through Christ that we can accomplish this. Christ alone.

“I suggest you learn what Purgatory is before you post about it. Clearly, from your questions and suggestion, you do not know what it is.”

Clearly, I know all about what Purgatory is and what it isn’t. I know that it is an idea concocted by man, and I know that there is no scriptural basis for it.

“May God teach you enough humility to look up what a doctrine actually is before you start posting against it on the internet. That would make you not only more knowledgable, but less foolish looking.”

I pray that God continues to grant me more humility, and also more wisdom. I also pray that He continues to embolden me to confront unBiblical doctrines, and to encourage others to hear what the Bible says without seeking to add to it or to take away from it.


15 posted on 11/02/2012 7:13:42 AM PDT by Swashbuckler99
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To: NYer

Well, I think it’s saying that if the dead are not raised(not saved through Christ by the time of their death), then why do you baptize the dead?

It’s pointless to baptize the dead. Salvation through Christ is a choice of volition.

If one is dead how can they decide anything.

So, not taking anything away from Mormons but, how does their act have any effect spiritually? It doesn’t.


16 posted on 11/02/2012 7:23:50 AM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Iscool

extremely well-stated. Better than I could have.


17 posted on 11/02/2012 7:42:04 AM PDT by Swashbuckler99
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To: raygunfan

Hebrews 10:10 denies the need for Purgatory since Christ’s sacrifice is made ‘once for all’.

My Savior is big enough to destroy all sin without the need for separation from the God who loves me more than anything. I hope yours is too.

Bless your day.


18 posted on 11/02/2012 7:46:33 AM PDT by Colonel_Flagg ("Don't be afraid to see what you see." -- Ronald Reagan)
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To: GalaxyAB

Might I suggest that you look into the differences between Old Testament civil law given to a specific people in a specific time, and which of the theological doctrines were upheld, and which were completed/negated by Christ’s death on the cross?


19 posted on 11/02/2012 7:51:01 AM PDT by Swashbuckler99
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To: GalaxyAB
Another quote, but their abbreviated Bible doesn't have it.

St. Teresa of Avila Interceding for the Souls in Purgatory, from the workshop of Peter Paul Reubens, 1577–1640


II Maccabees 12:43-46: "And making a gathering, he [Judas] sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection, (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,) And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them. It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins."


20 posted on 11/02/2012 8:07:58 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Swashbuckler99

Have you ever heard of these three categories? Catholics consider them all the time.

Church Triumphant — the Saints in Heaven

Church Suffering — the Souls in Purgatory being purged so that they can be pure when they enter Heaven

Church Militant — that’s us — alive here on earth


21 posted on 11/02/2012 8:11:07 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation
Indeed.
22 posted on 11/02/2012 8:30:33 AM PDT by GalaxyAB
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To: Colonel_Flagg

no it does not deny anything, it simply states he died once for all....the sin has been forgiven, the eternal damnation has been paid for, however, the soul of the individual still is marred by the stain of sin, despite being forgiven..thus the need for cleansing and purification after death before one can be in the presence of the Lord.


23 posted on 11/02/2012 9:16:55 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: Salvation

...and thus the need for the protestants to come up with lame reasons to get rid of this book, as luther did....it clearly points to praying for the souls of the dead.


24 posted on 11/02/2012 9:18:43 AM PDT by raygunfan
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To: NYer

I have a few questions.

Can you do your purgatory here on earth? Could dealing with personal sufferings be that of illness, job loss, grief, etc, be a form of purgatory?

It sure feels like it.


25 posted on 11/02/2012 9:53:15 AM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: Swashbuckler99; NYer; raygunfan; dangerdoc; vladimir998; GalaxyAB; metmom; boatbums; caww; ...
If "Purgatory" is real, why isn't it mentioned specifically in the Bible?

While it is not necessary that a doctrine to directly rest upon explicit statements, yet as with the Trinity, it should be soundly derived from clear texts, and for which the doctrine of purgatory fails, but which supports the doctrine that all true believers go to be with the Lord forever upon departing from this life, as will be shown.

The argument here for purgatory is based upon the premise that Jesus commanded souls to be as perfect as God, quoting Mt 5:48 which states, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect, " (Matthew 5:45) ,” which is in context refers to treating your enemy benevolently. However, this does not teach that the achievement of absolute moral perfection in this life is a perquisite for salvation, and which would require redefining salvation, and is tantamount to placing one under the Law. (Gal. 3:10)

For while salvific faith is one which characteristically effects the “obedience of faith” toward its Object (which faith in any moral authority will do, and which is an overcoming kind of faith, (Rv. 2,3), and grows towards the maturity which is called perfection, (Col. 1:28; 4:12; Ja. 1:4; 3:2; 1Jn. 4:17) and which faith has “great recompense of reward,” (Heb. 10:35), yet Scripture states that believers (being of true faith) are presently saved (Titus 3:5), and positionally perfect (Heb. 10:14) and seated in Heaven. (Eph. 2:6)

Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.

And in contrast to the Scripture texts that are enlisted in support of the Roman tradition of purgatory which typically either refer to punishment of the lost or chastisement in this life or of loss of rewards when the Lord returns, wherever the NT actually refers to the postmortem existence of believers (which are all called “saints), it places them with the Lord.

The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)

Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)

In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)

And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)

To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)

And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (INDULGENTIARUM DOCTRINA; cp. 1. 1967)

However, what Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)

Moreover, while Christians will be judged for the things they did as a believers, (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) as in how they built the church, this occurs after the Lord's return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) and is the suffering of the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval. (1Cor. 13:8ff) And which is contrary to purgatory, which has souls suffering in ongoing torments upon death in order to atone for sins and become perfect.

See here as regards 1 Cor. 3.

Note however that the “official” Roman doctrine of purgatory is ambiguous enough that it is open to much interpretation, so that it even may be taught, albeit inconsistently, that the suffering is for a moment, or is hardly even suffering.

Finally, the reality is that the doctrine of purgatory does not rest upon or require Scriptural substantiation, only that it does not contradict Scripture according to Rome's interpretation, and instead it is a tradition which rests upon Rome infallible declaration of herself as being infallible, while the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Rome (among other things) based upon their interpretation of Tradition and Scripture.

But for those who are prone to attempt to justify purgatory by Scripture, though that is not their supreme authority, i have engaged in extensive exchange on this, as here, and which little should need to be added.

26 posted on 11/02/2012 10:30:25 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: raygunfan
thank goodness we catholics have the historical church

Not needing explicit support from Scripture is one thing, asserting that purgatory is derived from it based on the premise of required perfection and ambiguous texts, is another (see .

But as your real basis is the authority of Rome, as a RC must hold that the Roman church is the final authority on Truth, rather than Scripture (as man's reasoning is fallible), would tell me upon what your basis is for your assurance that Rome is the one true church rests.

27 posted on 11/02/2012 10:37:05 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: raygunfan

I have not seen you before in the usually debates here, but you should know that Luther was not alone in his rejection of the apocrpha, (read http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Ancients_on_Scripture.html#2).

As for using 2Mac. 12:40-45 to support purgatory, this is problematic as those who had offerings made for them were slain due to idolatry, a mortal sin, thus requiring RCAs to ex deny this was why they died, or postulating they may have repented at the last.

Moreover, the New Catholic Answer Bible, as well as my NAB on 12:42-46 states, “The statement is made here, however, only for the purpose of proving that Judas believed in the resurrection of the just (2 Mc 7,9. 14. 23. 36)....His belief was similar to, but not quite the same, as the Catholic doctrine of purgatory.”

“Not quite the same” is the only “doctrine” that this extra book can support is that of praying to the physically dead (and not to them), not for them to get out of purgatorial suffering and attain moral perfection.

Meanwhile, as shown, the clearest teaching of Scripture is that believers go to be with the Lord upon their demise here, or at the Lord’s return, which ever comes first.


28 posted on 11/02/2012 10:54:36 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Salvation; Biggirl; Colonel_Flagg; Iscool

See posts 26, 28.


29 posted on 11/02/2012 11:02:09 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Iscool

Hebrews 9:27 27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment...


30 posted on 11/02/2012 11:08:25 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: Swashbuckler99

Thank you for an excellent post.


31 posted on 11/02/2012 11:11:22 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: raygunfan

Not true. We are in righteous standing before God.

Jesus NEVER mentions a place of further purification for sins.

Since Catholics hang so much on the direct words of Jesus, perhaps you could tell us where He refers to such an important part of the salvation process.


32 posted on 11/02/2012 11:15:46 AM PDT by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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To: raygunfan; Salvation
People who claim to base what they believe on Scripture and nothing else not only believe things that directly contradict very clear Scripture, they also claim that something like contraception not being mentioned means that contraception is OK. But, poor things, they buy into the lie that Purgatory isn't based on Scripture.

Why do people believe “Scripture Alone" when the Bible clearly says, the church is the bulwark of the Faith, not Scripture?
Why do people believe “by faith alone” when the Bible clearly says, “not by faith alone”?
If that sort of trashing of His Word isn't enough, Purgatory is in Scripture but Luther threw out that portion along with others. So, there is only "Subset Alone" anyway, not really Scripture Alone as those who espouse it portray it since they don't even include all of the Scripture in their Bible.

Where in the subset of Scripture such folks do accept does it say Luther has the authority to throw out portions of Scripture?

Clearly, "Scripture Alone" is exactly the same sort of propaganda distortion as "Pro-Choice", a phrase fashioned to aid in a deliberate deception. It's a lie while based on only a subset of Scripture, and even if applied to the entirety of Scripture would be lie because the proponents contradict direct statements within Scripture whenever they please. They simply imitate Eve and Luther by changing His Word to suit themselves and get on with whatever they want to do. Weather that's eating forbidden fruit, throwing out portions of the Bible, or murdering their own children with contraceptives, they find a way to have Scripture agree with what they want to do.

"Scripture Alone" is the marketing trade name for the worship of "Self Alone", nothing more.

Half blind folks who stagger as they walk due to the immense weight of the huge beam in their own eye, but who claim that Purgatory is a mote in the eye of others, are just pitiful. Such folks are staggering around in their filthy rags claiming that they need only rely on their Self Alone are relying on them Self, not on Jesus Christ for their salvation.

33 posted on 11/02/2012 11:18:24 AM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Vendome

“Soul sleep” is not what Scripture teaches (see #26). but the believers go to be with the Lord, while Paul’s mention of baptism for the dead* (vicarious baptism, which is attested to being practiced by such as the Marcionites in post apostolic times), was likely only in the interest of attesting to belief in the resurrection.

Paul also quoted a pagan philosopher in support of the truth that there is one God, (Acts 17:28) though this does not sanction all that such a pagan may do in worshiping such. And the fact is that the devils attest to the reality that there is one God, for they tremble at the realization of that, (Ja. 2:19) yet demons are wrong. Thus vicarious baptism attests to the resurrection, though the practice does not have Scriptural support.

Yet the Mormonic practice of baptism for the dead is the type of aberration most often seen among those who exalt another authority above Scripture, thus their teachings need not rest upon the weight of Scriptural warrant.

And and the Roman church comes close to supporting vicarious baptism with its infant baptism by proxy faith, but there is no example of anyone being saved or baptized who could fulfil the stated requirements for baptism, that of repentance and faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,27) Thus support must be derived upon the unprovable premise that household baptisms included infants, though even there faith is indicated where by any further description is given.

*1Co 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?


34 posted on 11/02/2012 11:43:14 AM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: tired&retired

Being Earth bound is one part of the purgatorial experience. Some souls go through that, but there are other ways of being purified while discarnate. Some Earth bound spirits are here voluntarilly, doing voluntary service work. Some are living out the agony of physical cravings and addictions with no physical body to satisfy their cravings.

My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.


35 posted on 11/02/2012 12:50:34 PM PDT by CPO retired
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To: CPO retired

Please see post 25, thank-you.


36 posted on 11/02/2012 2:44:50 PM PDT by Biggirl ("Jesus talked to us as individuals"-Jim Vicevich/Thanks JimV!)
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To: daniel1212

It astounds me that people fall for that purgatory tripe. If Jesus perfected us by His suffering and death and that was complete how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?


37 posted on 11/02/2012 3:37:43 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: CPO retired

“My wife and I are going through what I believe is a purgatorial experience while still incarnate. The purification process sometimes begins before physical death.”

That’s how karma works.... it’s a real pisser.


38 posted on 11/02/2012 5:14:01 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: CynicalBear

“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”

Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!

Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!


39 posted on 11/02/2012 5:20:38 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: CynicalBear

“how could anyone deny Christ and state we have to yet be perfected?”

Oh Lord it’s hard to be humble, when you’re perfect in every way....” My brother’s theme song!

Seriously, I wish those who think they are perfect stop bothering those of us who are! sarc!


40 posted on 11/02/2012 5:23:32 PM PDT by tired&retired
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To: daniel1212; Salvation
"Not needing explicit support from Scripture is one thing..."

Purgatory has ample Scriptural support as Salvation pointed out in Post #20. If you had a complete Bible you might have known that.

Peace be with you

41 posted on 11/02/2012 5:57:53 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: daniel1212

Thanks for reply. I agreed have politely discussed the premise with a few Mormon friends what was really going there in the scripture.

I usually get some weird convoluted explanation that is out of context and can’t be supported anywhere else in the Bible.

They willingly don’t get the concept that a truth in the Bible is always corroborated elsewhere.

Still fun to discuss.


42 posted on 11/02/2012 5:58:07 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Natural Law; metmom; boatbums

Ample Scriptural support in post 20? That is just one text and of problematic support and only for praying for the dead, as stated in post. 28.

And if i had a complete Bible is might have know that text? I hardly think by now that your suppose i am am that unlearned, but that is your old sarcaustic form, and which would provide more warrant for a purgatory if salvation was thru such than the the arguments attempted for it. See #26 and http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Contentions_Purgatory.html where i deal with far more.


43 posted on 11/02/2012 7:01:09 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212; Natural Law; raygunfan; Rashputin
Many, many scriptural references to Purgatory can be found here.

Happy reading and pondering.

44 posted on 11/02/2012 7:27:43 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: daniel1212
"See #26 and http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Contentions_Purgatory.html where i deal with far more."

I have no intentions in rewarding yet another attempt to pimp a blog.

45 posted on 11/02/2012 7:47:55 PM PDT by Natural Law (Jesus did not leave us a Bible, He left us a Church.)
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To: Salvation

Oh yes, “Scripture-Catholic, who feels at liberty to attempt to wrest support from Scripture to support traditions of men to the point that he examples irreverence of Scripture, as he did in his attempt to support claims for the Mary of Rome (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html), and which traditions do not even rest upon the weight of Scriptural warrant.

I have already refuted such attempts to support purgatory, and 1Cor. 3 for one cannot refer to purgatory as it takes place at the Lord’s return, while the suffering refers to the lost of rewards, which a soul is saved despite of, not because of. As was shown in a previous lengthy FR exchange.


46 posted on 11/02/2012 8:11:21 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: Natural Law

You would not, and it is not.


47 posted on 11/02/2012 8:11:58 PM PDT by daniel1212 (Come to the Lord Jesus as a contrite damned+destitute sinner, trust Him to save you, then live 4 Him)
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To: daniel1212

So will you apologize to me if you find you are on your way to Purgatory at the moment of your death? LOL!


48 posted on 11/02/2012 8:21:27 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: daniel1212; Natural Law
Two quotes from Scripture:

As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)

1 Corintians 3

11   For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12   Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
13   each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14   If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15   If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

The suffering leading to salvation that St. Paul refers to cannot be hell, since no one there can leave, but it must be another place: a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory.


49 posted on 11/02/2012 8:34:09 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
Purgatory has to be – Yes, gold, pure gold, refined, perfect and pure gold. Purgatory has to be if God’s promises are to hold.

Since we know from Scripture that our place of "purgation" is the cross of Jesus Christ, and that by his offering we are forever perfected, then, NO, Purgatory does NOT have to be. When Jesus said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.", he could not possibly have meant a perfection that can be attained BY a human - we were born in sin and come from the womb already at enmity with God. We must have the righteousness, the perfection OF God, to be in His presence. The doctrine of Purgatory says that the blood of Jesus Christ is insufficient to completely cleanse us of all sin - contradicting God's word which says it DOES. We are made perfect through faith IN Christ and it is HIS righteousness that is imputed to us when we receive God's gift of eternal life.

To believe in Purgatory one must also believe that he merits salvation by his works and Scripture clearly teaches it is either GRACE or WORKS, not both. It is really too bad that the Catholic Church allowed this insipid dogma to creep into the Gospel. It totally negates the Gospel - the GOOD NEWS that Christ has died for us and by believing in Him we are saved.

50 posted on 11/02/2012 10:26:15 PM PDT by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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