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Sparks Fly at Pius XII Debate in London
The Catholic Herald (UK) ^ | 11/23/12 | Edward Pentin

Posted on 11/26/2012 10:33:49 AM PST by marshmallow

Majority of the audience failed to be swayed by scholars speaking in favour of the wartime pope

Scholars speaking in favour of Venerable Pope Pius XII and his wartime record managed to convince a significant number of people that the Pontiff did the best he could to save Jewish lives from the Holocaust, even if they failed to win over the majority of the audience at a recent lively debate in London.

The Intelligence Squared debate, held last Wednesday in front of a large audience of participants, heard four scholars debate the motion: “‘Hitler’s Pope’: Pius XII did too little to save the Jews from the Holocaust”.

Speaking for the motion were the British historian Viscount John Julius Norwich and UN jurist Geoffrey Robertson. Speaking against were William Doino, a leading expert on Pius XII and his wartime record, and Professor Ronald Rychlak, a law professor at the University of Mississippi and also a leading scholar on Pius.

The “Oxford style” debate, in which scholars debate the motion and the audience votes at the beginning and at the end, predictably provoked some heated discussions.

Doino and Rychlak spent much of the evening presenting fact after fact in defence of Pius XII in an attempt to counter the so-called “Black Legend,” but their opponents were master performers who managed to convince many in the audience through sheer force of rhetoric and style.

“Those in favor of the motion made an eloquent argument and gave a superb performance,” conceded Gary Krupp, founder of the Pave the Way Foundation which has been at the forefront of clearing Pius’s name. But he added: “Unfortunately, it was totally based on erroneous mistranslated rhetoric, which has been repeated over and over again. The documentation we have posted online discredit each of the statements made by Robertson and Norwich.”

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Catholic; History

1 posted on 11/26/2012 10:33:53 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow

Who turned away the SS St. Louis?

2 posted on 11/26/2012 10:46:18 AM PST by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: marshmallow

The art of good rhetoric is such a lost skill these days, next to having facts, the right presentation makes those facts acceptable to people who need more than facts to get it.

You’ve gotta have some pathos.

3 posted on 11/26/2012 11:02:13 AM PST by Bayard
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To: massgopguy
"Who turned away the SS St. Louis?"


Ummmmmm. . .

Yeah, I remember now, it was Bush

4 posted on 11/26/2012 11:08:50 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: marshmallow

The KGB’s disinformation plan to discredit Pope Pius XII still continues to succeed against him and his efforts against Hitler.

5 posted on 11/26/2012 11:17:04 AM PST by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: marshmallow
Meanwhile in Rome, Pope Pius XII is still dead. He's dead, Jim. Below room temperature. Ten toes up.
6 posted on 11/26/2012 11:18:32 AM PST by Tupelo (Hunkered down & loading up)
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To: marshmallow

So basically what they are saying is that Pius did stuff, but there is little or no proof. To cherry pick heroic actions by individual Catholics, vs, the Vatican’s edicts, is not an affirmative defense for the Pope. I understand the Vatican wanting to stay away from the fray, but when it was undeniable what was going on, what did they say and do then? Not much. Being Pope is not a 9-5 job, it was his job to say something, public! They suffer the same condition today by backing and electing baby killers and sodomites with no backlash.

7 posted on 11/26/2012 11:19:30 AM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles

The Vatican has not released much as they may have to do it again at some point.

Pius XII’s protection of jews is well documented.

8 posted on 11/26/2012 11:37:46 AM PST by buffaloguy
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To: marshmallow
I'm pretty sure you'll remember this one, from Oct. 2010 Wartime Pope Has a Huge Fan: A Jewish Knight
9 posted on 11/26/2012 12:58:23 PM PST by BlueDragon (in essentials, unity; in doubtful matters, liberty; in all things, charity)
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To: chuckles

I don’;t think you realize the situation in 1942, and I gather that you have not read Ryadiak’s book. And certainly you misunderstand how much power Hitler exercised at that time. Pius’s words and actions are “neutral? as were Benedict XV’s during World War I. Pius was Nuncio in Germany for nine years and he knew what sort of man Hitler was, and he is quoted as having said that Hitler was far worse than Stalin. Many Catholiv’s in Germany thought that Hitler was a “cultural” Catholic like so many of them. Pacelli knew better. The Concordant was an effort to comes to terms with Hitler as the Church had with Mussolini, but Missolini had begun to violate that agreement almost as soon as the ink was dry. Hitler was even more dismissive, althought it took some Churchmen a couple of years for this to sink in. yes, Hitler was already rounding up Catholic priests who were political opponents of the regime. Read the Nazi press if you want to know how the party looked at the Church. American liberals are not the first to highlight sexual scandals in thjs Priesthood..

10 posted on 11/26/2012 6:12:20 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: buffaloguy

The Church was the most help after Mussolini adopted Hitler-like racist laws. Thousands of Jews were given false baptismal certificates and taken into hiding in convents and monestaries.

11 posted on 11/26/2012 6:15:27 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: RobbyS
I understand Hitler in 1942, just as I understand Chavez today. There are dozens of dictators all over the world that claim to be Catholic and we hear very little from the Vatican about it. Pius had many chances to say and do things to help what he was seeing at the time but remained relatively silent. I know it was dangerous, but that's the job he took at the time.

It's the same gig the Muslim Imam's have. You strap the bomb's on others to set off, never you. There were a few priests that did heroic things back then, but I never heard of any edicts from Rome. Evil must be confronted or you just become a part of the evil. The politics of it be damned.

Just ponder how the war would have gone if they had arrested the Pope. Maybe the "real Catholics", would have the scales removed from their eyes. To accept a position like pope or priest, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty. Jesus confronted His murderers and then His apostles paid the price also.

I'm not looking for some super human response to evil, but something at least resembling room temperature at least.

My point is we could use a voice for truth even today and there is silence from Rome. People like Chavez and others from S America and Africa should be chastised from Rome. We can't even get a peep over Biden, Kerry, or Pelosi, murdering babies and supporting sodomy.

Shouting Truth to power comes with the job, IMHO. Otherwise, what impact will God's Word have on the planet? Pius knew in no uncertain terms what was going on and didn't resist. The Church should proclaim it's power here on Earth and there might be a whole lot less murder and mayhem if the people knew the Church's position. We can't even get 50% of the church to vote against Obama after he attacks us. As far as I'm concerned, The Church has been in disarray for a long, long time and this is just a small glimpse of what we are reaping. One way to tell is watch your own pew sitters and their attitude about Israel right now. A great many of them blame Israel and support Hamas. They seem to blame Israel for the death of Jesus or something. Why the Church can't seem to get this straight is beyond me.


I don't get your comment on highlighting sexual scandals. Are you suggesting they should be hidden?

12 posted on 11/27/2012 8:11:51 AM PST by chuckles
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To: chuckles

Again, I do not think you know what it was like in 1942. The Axis came close to winning that year. As to what the pope might have said and done, I am mot sure you know that he is, after all, just the archpriest of Christendom, and unlike Pius V he could not even muster troops for a crusade. What he did say was pretty clear and that was that he assigned the blame for the waron the Axis powers, and what he did was to encourage the plotters who were trying to mount a coup against Hitler.

13 posted on 11/27/2012 5:50:26 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: chuckles
Pius knew in no uncertain terms what was going on and didn't resist.

Do we really have to go over the evidence again???

The Germans knew exactly where Pius XII stood at all times. The SS had a plan to kidnap him from the Vatican and make him a prisoner, for heavens' sake. Did they do that to their friends?

Pius did "speak out" on several occasions, but his willingness to do so had to be tempered by knowledge of the danger of an escalation of Nazi persecution of the victims he was trying to save. "Speaking out" just to justify himself to posterity (us) ... is worth how many innocent lives, in your view?

Meanwhile, Pius worked quietly behind the scenes and saved 860,000 Jewish lives throughout Europe, according to Rabbi Lapide. Golda Meir rose to eulogize him at the UN.

Look it up: the black legend against Pius XII started in the early 1960's as a KGB disinformation operation.

14 posted on 11/27/2012 6:31:21 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: chuckles


Following the outbreak of the war at the start of the month, the
newspaper has articles and editorials this month dealing with the
disclosures by the Vatican of Nazi atrocities against Jews and non-Jews in

JANUARY 23, 1940:
“Vatican Denounces Atrocities in Poland”
“Jews and Poles are being herded into separate ghettos,
heremetically sealed and pitifully inadequate for the economic subsistence
of the millions destined to live there.”

JANUARY 24, 1940:
“Vatican Amplifies Atrocity Reports / Weight of Papacy Put Behind
Exposure of Nazi Excesses in Poland.”
“Poland’s Agony” (editorial on same day):
“Now the Vatican has spoken, with authority that cannot be
questioned, and has confirmed the worst intimations of terror which have
come out of the Polish darkness.”

JANUARY 29, 1940:
“Memorandum Presented to Pope”
“Mass Shootings in Poland Laid to Nazis by Cardinal”

MARCH 14, 1940:
Action by Pope in meeting Nazi Foreign Minister:
“Jews’ Rights Defended”

DECEMBER 25, 1941:
Editorial speaks of Pope:
“a lonely voice”

AUGUST 27, 1942:
In article, “Vichy Seizes Jews; Pope Pius Ignored,” it is stated:
“These arrests are continuing despite appeals to Marshal Henri Philippe
Petain . . . by leading Catholic clergymen, with the support of the

DECEMBER 25, 1942:
Editorial speaks of Pope:
“a lonely voice”

DECEMBER 4, 1943:
Speaking of Vatican:
“Denounces Decision to Intern and Strip All Jews in Italy”

“When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the pope was
raised for its victims.”
(Golda Meir, Foreign Minister of Israel, on the death of Pope Pius XII, in
October 1958.)

15 posted on 11/27/2012 7:55:14 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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