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Brigham Young biography portrays a great leader and an unpleasant man [Book on Lds Deseret shelf]
Ogden Standard-Examiner ^ | Oct. 6, 2012 | Doug Gibson

Posted on 12/04/2012 3:35:55 PM PST by Colofornian

Closing the book after reading, "Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet," the new biography by George Mason University religious studies professor John G. Turner, published by Belknap Press of Harvard University, causes some swirling emotions for this Latter-day Saint reader. From reading Turner’s fantastic — and it is by far the best that has been written of Young’s life — biography, it’s easy for a faithful Mormon to agree that God called Young to the task of moving 20,000-plus Mormons across the plains to Utah territory and over a generation-plus, to set up hundreds of Mormon settlements. No man in U.S. history was ever that successful in those endeavors. On the other hand, while admiring Young’s organizational skills, I don’t much care for Brigham Young the man.

Turner’s biography portrays an often unpleasant man, with a foul mouth — his preferred cuss word was "shit" — and a spiteful, vengeful nature. He had a caustic sense of humor, which perhaps mitigates some of his casual comments that seemed to support violence. He ruled the Salt Lake Valley as an absolute dictator, and harbored longtime grudges against apostles who dared to criticize his particular beliefs, such as blood atonement, the Adam-God doctrine, and the United Order. While no evidence exists that Young ordered the Mountain Meadows Massacre, his messages to Native Americans that they could steal from non-Mormon settlers, the atmosphere of settler-animus that pervaded 1857 Utah, and Young’s successful efforts to stymie an initial investigation into the massacre, harm the image of the LDS Church’s second modern-day prophet.

Indeed, Young’s caustic tongue also inflamed a Mormon bishop to castrate a petty criminal, a Logan member. Rather than feel sympathy for the man or his mother, Young protected the ecclesiastical leader who had ordered it. And, reading accounts of murders of non-Mormons by LDS thugs Porter Rockwell and William Hickman, it seems plausible to theorize that Young ordered those deaths.

However, Turner’s book overall is not a negative portrayal of Young. It is another example of grizzly bear truth, where a great man’s life is revealed, with strengths and weaknesses, talents and faults included. The book is on the shelves at Deseret Book, and that’s appropriate because it does justice in recounting the life of the West’s most prominent 19th century colonizer. Turner describes Young’s hardscrabble existence in early 18th century New England, his strained relationship with his father, and his early religious skepticism that was finally counteracted by Joseph Smith’s new religion, Mormonism.

Before the mid-1840s, Brigham Young was known for his compassion and openness as a Mormon apostle. Turner recounts his tender, love-filled letters to his wife, Mary Angell, and the biography includes accounts of his compassionate tenure as a leader to the Mormons in England. But the murder of the Joseph Smith, the continued harassment of Nauvoo Mormons afterward, and, as important, the internal dissent that swirled within the LDS Church prior to Smith’s murder, all that changed Young. He appears to have turned into a man, a leader, determined to never let that happen again. Young mercilessly abused the LDS apostles both privately and publicly.

Young’s CEO-type behavior, though, achieved its goals. No disagreeing members of the LDS hierarchy were able to achieve the success of the Law brothers, in Nauvoo. Young’s hammering of the Saints in Utah, his public denunciations and calls for repentance, kept the Utah Mormons united in their distrust of outside influences and retained their faith in unity.

His strong opposition to mining, for example, kept Utah free of non-Mormon influences for as long as Young could manage it.

Young never forgave what he perceived as disrespect, and late in his life arranged the apostles’ hierarchy so that Orson Pratt could not become church president. It was motivated by retained anger over Pratt’s efforts at independence. Young never admitted that he made mistakes. The handcart fiasco was the fault of Franklin Richards and John Taylor; the failure to enact a United Order was the fault of Erastus Snow. Private gestures of compassion and charity to apostles, severely chastened by Young, served to partially mitigate this routine abuse. Young also provided himself a great deal of wealth and luxury, while relegating many of his followers to relative poverty. He tolerated no criticism of this perceived inequality.

Young demands respect despite his human weaknesses. More than even Joseph Smith, he is responsible for the survival of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. His shrewd leadership, along with help from the canny, non-Mormon lobbyist, Thomas Kane, managed to keep him as the main source of power in the Utah territory for much longer than anyone would have anticipated. Young was able to manipulate political events, wars, the seasons, weak-willed political appointees, Native American unrest, and petitions for statehood to consistently survive virtually every imbroglio with the federal government or U.S. Army. Turner recounts many incidents of Young surviving as Utah’s leader while "gentile" nemesis after nemesis left Utah as grumbling failures.

When the railroad connected Utah with the nation, Young’s power slowly decreased the last decade of his life. Perhaps to cheat the spectre of death, Young took a few young wives. He tried to re-energize support for two doctrines he had long espoused, the Adam-God doctrine and the United Order. Those efforts though were lackluster. Still revered by members, Young seemed a calmer, or perhaps just exhausted, lion. One of his final acts was to dedicate the St. George Temple. Characteristically, he criticized an apostle while doing so.

Brigham Young was a great man. I revere him as a prophet. He was also a man of his times, who carried the savagery and bigotry of that era. Many of his most egregious acts can be explained, and even perhaps excused, by the understanding that he felt himself to be in a war. He believed that his existence, and that of his Gospel, was in danger. That he died as leader of the Utah Mormons was his final victory, and final sacrifice for Joseph Smith.

dgibson@standard.net. This column was published at Nothing Standard blogs at http://blogs.standard.net/the-political-surf/2012/10/01/brigham-young-biography-portrays-a-great-leader-and-an-unpleasant-man/


TOPICS: History; Other Christian; Other non-Christian; Religion & Culture; Theology
KEYWORDS: brighamyoung; inman; lds; mormonism; mormonprophet
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Note: This blog was written by a...

Mormon...


...and per this columnist/blogger, "The book" he is reviewing "is on the shelves at...

Deseret Book..."

... which, btw, is owned by the Mormon church

So if the Mormon church carries the book that is the subject of this blog; and this blog about the book is authored by a Mormon, I guess that makes this thread "pro-Mormon"...of sorts anyway...right?

So...you can read about the foul-mouthed, murderous, vengeful, greedy, dictator-heretic who taught that Adam of the Bible was God...
...and that communism was to be practiced in Utah...
...and that since Jesus' blood couldn't cover all your sins, "Here, we'll slit your throat for you so that your blood will atone for that sin or those sins..."
...by just scrollin' down the page to glean more about this Mormon "prophet" -- Brigham Young!

A character so "fine" that the Mormon church decided to name its most prominent university after him!

From the blog: "Turner’s biography portrays" [Brigham Young as] "an often unpleasant man, with a foul mouth — his preferred cuss word was 'shit' — and a spiteful, vengeful nature. He had a caustic sense of humor, which perhaps mitigates some of his casual comments that seemed to support violence. He ruled the Salt Lake Valley as an absolute dictator, and harbored longtime grudges against apostles who dared to criticize his particular beliefs, such as blood atonement, the Adam-God doctrine, and the United Order.

The United Order was essentially Mormon communism, and even influenced one author who in turn influenced Soviet communism. Adam-God was Young's teaching for 20-odd years that Adam is God. Blood atonement was Young's teaching that Christ didn't cover some sins...therefore, the person had to "atone" for those sins himself.

From the article: Young’s caustic tongue also inflamed a Mormon bishop to castrate a petty criminal, a Logan member. Rather than feel sympathy for the man or his mother, Young protected the ecclesiastical leader who had ordered it. And, reading accounts of murders of non-Mormons by LDS thugs Porter Rockwell and William Hickman, it seems plausible to theorize that Young ordered those deaths.

From the article: Young also provided himself a great deal of wealth and luxury, while relegating many of his followers to relative poverty. He tolerated no criticism of this perceived inequality.

1 posted on 12/04/2012 3:36:04 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All

ALL: Since the book is carried on the shelves by Deseret Book, owned by the Mormon church, hey...pick up a copy and give it to your Mormon neighbor!


2 posted on 12/04/2012 3:37:11 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: All
From the article: He ruled the Salt Lake Valley as an absolute dictator, and harbored longtime grudges against apostles who dared to criticize his particular beliefs, such as blood atonement, the Adam-God doctrine, and the United Order.

Here is Brigham Young in his own words -- from 1852 to 1873 -- teaching that God was Adam:

April 9, 1852: Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—He is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom WE have to do. Every man upon the earth, professing Christians or non-professing, must hear it, and will know it sooner or later. They came here, organized the raw material, and arranged in their order the herbs of the field, the trees, the apple, the peach, the plum, the pear, and every other fruit that is desirable and good for man; the seed was brought from another sphere, and planted in this earth. The thistle, the thorn, the brier, and the obnoxious weed did not appear until after the earth was cursed. When Adam and Eve had eaten of the forbidden fruit, their bodies became mortal from its effects, and therefore their offspring were mortal. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 1:50-51)

1857: Brigham Young preached that "Adam...helped to make this world...Some have grumbled because I believe our God to be so near to us as Father Adam. There are many who know that doctrine to be true." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 5,p. 331)

1859 Young taught, "Adam and Eve are the parents of all pertaining to the flesh, and I would not say that they are not also the parents of our spirits." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 290)

June 8, 1873: Young never gave up trying to convince the 'Utah saints.' In June, 1873, Young delivered a message in the new tabernacle in Salt Lake City the afternoon of June 8:

"How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me--namely that Adam is our father and God...Our Father Adam helped to make this earth, it was created expressly for him, and after it was made he and his companions came here. He brought one of his wives with him, and she was called Eve...Our Father is the man who stands at the gate and holds the keys of everlasting life and salvation to alll his children who have or who ever will come upon the earth (David W. Evans, The Deseret News, June 18, 1873 under headline of "Discourse")

3 posted on 12/04/2012 3:39:56 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian
Ok, so.....BY was a vile and disgusting man, who ruled almost as dictator (according to the book), yet the author of this article ends his piece by saying Brigham Young was a great man. I revere him as a prophet.
4 posted on 12/04/2012 3:40:10 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: All
From the article: Young never forgave what he perceived as disrespect, and late in his life arranged the apostles’ hierarchy so that Orson Pratt could not become church president. It was motivated by retained anger over Pratt’s efforts at independence. Young never admitted that he made mistakes. The handcart fiasco was the fault of Franklin Richards and John Taylor; the failure to enact a United Order was the fault of Erastus Snow.

So...'twas NEVER Brigham's fault...And the "apostle" that Young kept out of the Mormon "prophet's" driver seat? Who was he? Orson Pratt...direct ancestor of none other than Mitt Romney!!!

5 posted on 12/04/2012 3:43:18 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: svcw
Ok, so.....BY was a vile and disgusting man, who ruled almost as dictator (according to the book), yet the author of this article ends his piece by saying Brigham Young was a great man. I revere him as a prophet.

Yes. It's called cognitive dissonance.

Mormons have this great ambivalence...

Besides, Gibson's fellow Mormons might write him off as a total Mormon heretic if he didn't utter something positive about the name most popular with Cougar fans!

6 posted on 12/04/2012 3:45:14 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian; All
"He tried to re-energize support for two doctrines he had long espoused, the Adam-God doctrine and the United Order."

For the benefit fo those who do not know, the "Adam-God" doctrine of Young's states that Adam was/is God, and the United Order = cult run COMMUNISM.

Mormonism is NOT Christian.

7 posted on 12/04/2012 3:58:53 PM PST by SENTINEL (I lie, I cheat, I steal, I communize, I sacrifice unborn babies, I'm Harry Reid and I'm a mormon)
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To: Colofornian

And the Mormon will agree with it and discuss it with you. But that will not change his opinion of the current Prophet and President of the LDS Church, nor will it change his or her allegiance to the Mormon Church.

The LDS culture and milieu seems to have a sinister hold on Mormons. A man I know, I guess know of is a better description, says that he was raised in the home of a warlock. He father told him that, when he got out into the world, should he ever need a place to hide, he should join the LDS church. The guy’s dad said that there is an Occultic side to Mormonism that will provide good cover for warlocks and witches. I didn’t even know that real warlocks and witches even existed outside the covers of book and dvd cases.


8 posted on 12/04/2012 4:00:32 PM PST by righttackle44 (Take scalps. Leave the bodies as a warning.)
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To: Colofornian

Indeed, Young’s caustic tongue also inflamed a Mormon bishop to castrate a petty criminal, a Logan member. Rather than feel sympathy for the man or his mother, Young protected the ecclesiastical leader who had ordered it
_________________________________________

Ah yes...

The crime ...

Well this young unmarried man was engaged to a pretty girl and soon to be wed to her...

The much married Mormon bishop lusted after the young girl and demanded she give in and have sex with him...

The girl said NO she was engaged to the young man and loved only him...

Big crime in polygamous sex mad Utah...

The young man was in the way of the Mormon bishop seducing and raping a new victim...

His influence had to go...

and so the Mormon bishop had him castrated...

and forced and threatened the poor girl into submitting to his damnable evil...

and Brigham Young KNOWING ALL THE FACTS said that was a good thing...


9 posted on 12/04/2012 4:03:39 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: righttackle44

That is interesting.
One of my mormon cousins, is the owner of an occult store in San Francisco, and she referees to herself as a mormon wiccan.


10 posted on 12/04/2012 4:11:57 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

No disagreeing members of the LDS hierarchy were able to achieve the success of the Law brothers, in Nauvoo.
_____________________________________________

Yeah Young murdered anyone who might be consideering exercising their 1st Amendement right to FREEDOM OF THE PRESS

After all he had lied and manipulated Joey Smiths followers into leaving the protection of the United States and entering Mexico (the Utah Territory) where there would be no American laws or army to stop him or come to their aide...

There he was the only law...

He crowned himself king-for-life

When the Utah Territory became part of the US he made himself “governor”and ran off any judges or other officials appointed by Washington DC

Yes nobody dare tell the ugly truth about the Mormons..

the unAmerican, unConstitutional, unBiblical, unGodly Mormons


11 posted on 12/04/2012 4:17:03 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: Colofornian

His strong opposition to mining, for example, kept Utah free of non-Mormon influences for as long as Young could manage it.
_______________________________________

and yet he sent men to California to the gold mines where they demanded that other non-Mormon miners hand over their gold because Utah “owned” California and all its gold...

he wasnt against stealing in the least...

This was an article from San Francisco during the California gold rush that was reprinted in a New Zealand newspaper of the time..

Gee I guess back then the Laws lived in California too...


13 posted on 12/04/2012 4:25:11 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
Again...this is from a MORMON blogger citing a book on the Mormon church's bookshelf...

If you want to cite a Lutheran author citing a book on the Lutheran church shelf about Luther, be my guest.

14 posted on 12/04/2012 4:32:06 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Colofornian

Many of his most egregious acts can be explained
_____________________________________________

Theres another couple of old books that do some explaining and excusing too...

The Prince

Crime and Punishment


15 posted on 12/04/2012 4:32:12 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

Start a thread about Luther, and ping us, this thread is about Brigham Young.


16 posted on 12/04/2012 4:38:53 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Tennessee Nana

There must be 150+ books, papers, and articles about Brigham Young - gold - California.
I just picked a random sample, and did not read any.
;-)

http://books.google.com/books?id=6uq9Ay6Si-4C&pg=PA201&lpg=PA201&dq=%22brigham+young%22+%2B+%22gold%22+%2B+%22california%22&source=bl&ots=BTw3KY7H1A&sig=uLIRpLfMe21Ga0j0__JkMspT3LQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=65a-UJv5NoTGrQG94ICAAg&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22brigham%20young%22%20%2B%20%22gold%22%20%2B%20%22california%22&f=false

http://www.angelfire.com/trek/forthetruth/brighamyoung.html

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=11039

http://rsc.byu.edu/archived/california-saints-150-year-legacy-golden-state/chapter-8-apostles-amid-gold-seekers


17 posted on 12/04/2012 4:44:04 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Colofornian

***He ruled the Salt Lake Valley as an absolute dictator,***

Who could not tolerate any competition. Remember what he did to the Morrisites, and when Gladden Bishop, who claimed to be a prophet and have the Gold Plates and the sword of Laban, showed up in Salt Lake, Young sent him word that it might be best Bishop leave SL while he could still walk.

Bishop died not long after.


18 posted on 12/04/2012 4:55:25 PM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar (The parasites now outnumber the producers.)
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To: Colofornian

Catholic church apologizes for Gallelo.
Baptist church apologizes for pro slavery position of 150 years ago.
Lutherans apologize for Luther’s treaties On the Jews and Their Lies.

And yet, there are still, Catholics, Lutherans, and Baptists.


19 posted on 12/04/2012 4:55:25 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewiscrate)
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To: Colofornian

Question. Did Brigham Young burn heretics at the stake? Cause it was quite a common practice at one time.


20 posted on 12/04/2012 4:59:25 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewiscrate)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles; Jim Robinson

Maligning Christians on FR is not a popular hobby.


21 posted on 12/04/2012 5:08:05 PM PST by greyfoxx39 (Ann Romney "ascending to the White House was their destiny."http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

“Martin Luther had serious flaws. He excoriated the Jews in his writings, published vile ,pornographic drawings of the pope, cursed profusely, had a violent temper , was obsessed with scrupulosity over his sins, and his associate ZwinglI was an was an adulterer.”

Luther never claimed to be a prophet called by God. He wasn’t a polygamist. He didn’t pervert the nature of God. He didn’t change the Gospel. He didn’t see Quakers on the moon.

He was an ordinary man, in need of a Savior. I’ve yet to hear any Christian condone any of what you wrote.


22 posted on 12/04/2012 5:12:04 PM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international. Gone.)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

And what is your point?
If these things interest you why not start a thread about the topic, this thread is about Brigham Young, his rule and mormonISM.


23 posted on 12/04/2012 5:22:29 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: righttackle44
The LDS culture and milieu seems to have a sinister hold on Mormons.

Ya THINK???

24 posted on 12/04/2012 5:29:18 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
I think I’ll start a post trashing Martin Luther, I have nothing better to do. And I think about it constantly. Constantly, I tell you.

Go for it!

But, appearing in THIS thread and hollering, "LOOK OVER THERE!", will not gain you any followers.

25 posted on 12/04/2012 5:31:23 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Tennessee Nana
Many of his most egregious acts can be explained

I'm sure a few, maybe even just ONE, of our FR mormons will be able to 'explain away' why they are NOT damned for failing to follow MORMON scripture.


"Now if any of you will deny the plurality of wives, and continue to do so, I promise that you will be damned;

and I will go still further and say, take this revelation, or any other revelation that the Lord has given,

and deny it in your feelings, and I promise that you will be damned.

Brigham Young - JoD 3:266 (July 14, 1855)

26 posted on 12/04/2012 5:33:56 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
Did Brigham Young burn heretics at the stake?

 

The gruesome be headings of some 40 Ute corpses in 1850, heads stacked in boxes,
and hung by their long hair from the eves of buildings at Fort Utah,
 has long been ignored, “You didn’t see the Indians beheading the Mormons.”
 
-- Historian Robert Carter

27 posted on 12/04/2012 5:35:17 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw
He hasn't learned the subtleties of thread highjacking.
28 posted on 12/04/2012 5:36:29 PM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=iv&v=n3BqLZ8UoZk&annotation_id=annotation_938881&src_vid=7q6brMrFw0E


29 posted on 12/04/2012 6:15:59 PM PST by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: Elsie

He hasn’t learned the concept of logic...


30 posted on 12/04/2012 6:20:38 PM PST by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Colofornian
Bringem Young was a pervert.
31 posted on 12/04/2012 6:51:06 PM PST by Tau Food (Never give a sword to a man who can't dance.)
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To: greyfoxx39

But it is perfectly okay to malign Mormons as a hobby?

Oh well. It seems I spoiled all the fun by pointing out the flaws and sins of other denominations and their founders and the apparent “cognitive dissonance” of their followers.

I see now, this is the Mormon bashing thread. If I want to bash the Catholics, Baptists, or the Lutherans I need to start a new thread.

I could do that OR I could spend some time making a check list of the food I want to buy at the Mormon food pantry for my emergency planning project.

Thank you Mormons for making these goods available to the public.


32 posted on 12/04/2012 7:01:59 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewiscrate)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles

ah, This thread is about mormonISM.
And since when are their panties available to non-mormons......that must be a new thing.


33 posted on 12/04/2012 7:15:08 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

Will these “panties” get me into heaven? If so, I would purchase several ... my sins are multitude. ;-)


34 posted on 12/04/2012 7:25:13 PM PST by doc1019 (Women have a choice, unborn babies don't.)
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To: svcw

Mormon pantries are open to non members. Mormon panties?.....not so much.


35 posted on 12/04/2012 7:28:45 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewiscrate)
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To: doc1019; Hound of the Baskervilles

The joys of auto correct on a smart phone.
ahhhhhh!!!!!!!!


36 posted on 12/04/2012 7:37:48 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

?


37 posted on 12/04/2012 7:42:25 PM PST by doc1019 (Women have a choice, unborn babies don't.)
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To: doc1019

What was supposed to be pantries, was auto-corrected to panties.


38 posted on 12/04/2012 7:43:45 PM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: svcw

ROFLMAO! Now I understand. Even though your original response was very funny.


39 posted on 12/04/2012 7:46:38 PM PST by doc1019 (Women have a choice, unborn babies don't.)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
Baptist church apologizes for pro slavery position of 150 years ago.

The thousands of Baptist churches in this country are autonomous. Which one apologized? And, no, the SBC does not speak for any particular church.

40 posted on 12/04/2012 8:20:43 PM PST by Graybeard58 (What G.O.P.e. candidate is in store for us in 2016?)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles; greyfoxx39; svcw; All
It seems I spoiled all the fun by pointing out the flaws and sins of other denominations and their founders and the apparent “cognitive dissonance” of their followers.

No, actually you...
(a) showed that the reformers & other church leaders' need for a Savior;
(b) and that NONE of them were divine -- unlike the temple Mormons...who claim to be "gods in embryos"...

The issue isn't simply -- as you try to reduce it down to...who has sins and who has flaws & who doesn't.

If that is your weak argument, then Jesus Christ stands in one corner & we ALL...past & present...fall down on the other side...

(So, in case you couldn't tell, HoTB, we're ALL united 'round THAT premise!!!)

I'll tell you what, tho: Show me ANY church leader -- Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic -- who thought Adam was God.

I mean even Joseph Smith, the founding Mormon prophet, declared it was the FIRST principle of the Gospel to know the true character of God. And Brigham Young frankly flunked even Smith's declaration...(pretty tough to do when you examine how many false things Smith said about the Gospel!)

And why would you want to defend a man who thought that Adam was God?

(You're not some tucked-away 'Adam-is-God' disciple, are you?)

41 posted on 12/04/2012 9:03:40 PM PST by Colofornian
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To: Graybeard58

The Southern Baptist Convention.


42 posted on 12/04/2012 10:49:24 PM PST by Hound of the Baskervilles ("Nonsense in the intellect draws evil after it." C.S. Lewiscrate)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
The Southern Baptist Convention.

Your statement was:

Baptist church apologizes for pro slavery position of 150 years ago.

My answer was and still is, that the S.B.C. (Southern Baptist Convention) doesn't speak for their member churches as all S.B.C. member Churches are autonomous.

Churches affiliated with the S.B.C. sometimes buy literature from them and support missionaries through them, there's no Pope there or leader of all the Baptist churches.

You chose to ignore that, I suspect you will do it again, as it doesn't fit your agenda.

43 posted on 12/05/2012 4:27:30 AM PST by Graybeard58 (What G.O.P.e. candidate is in store for us in 2016?)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
But it is perfectly okay to malign Mormons as a hobby?

You lack a bit of knowledge of MORMONism's history it seems...



Questions put to Joseph Smith: "'Do you believe the Bible?' [Smith:]'If we do, we are the only people under heaven that does, for there are none of the religious sects of the day that do'. When asked 'Will everybody be damned, but Mormons'? [Smith replied] 'Yes, and a great portion of them, unless they repent, and work righteousness." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 119).
Joseph Smith: "for the teachers of religion of the different sects understood the same passages of scripture so differently as to destroy all confidence in settling the question by an appeal to the Bible" (from Pearl of Great Price 1:12). "What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world" (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270).
 
 
 
Brigham Young stated this repeatedly: "When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness" (Journal of Discourses 5:73); "The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God" (Journal of Discourses 8:171); "With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Journal of Discourses 8:199); "And who is there that acknowledges [God's] hand? ...You may wander east, west, north, and south, and you cannot find it in any church or government on the earth, except the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.24); "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt proclaimed: "Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (The Seer, p. 255).
 
 
 
Orson Pratt also said: "This great apostasy commenced about the close of the first century of the Christian era, and it has been waxing worse and worse from then until now" (Journal of Discourses
, vol.18, p.44) and: "But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of people Christian Churches, because they profess to be ...But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance" (Journal of Discourses , 18:172).
 
 
President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses , vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses , 10:127).
 
 
 
James Talmage said: "A self-suggesting interpretation of history indicates that there has been a great departure from the way of salvation as laid down by the Savior, a universal apostasy from the Church of Christ". (A Study of the Articles of Faith, p.182).
 
 
 
President Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).
 
 
 
More recent statements by apostle Bruce McConkie are also very clear: "Apostasy was universal...And this darkness still prevails except among those who have come to a knowledge of the restored gospel" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol 3, p.265); "Thus the signs of the times include the prevailing apostate darkness in the sects of Christendom and in the religious world in general" (The Millennial Messiah, p.403); "a perverted Christianity holds sway among the so-called Christians of apostate Christendom" (Mormon Doctrine, p.132); "virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal uncreated, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Mormon Doctrine, p.269); "Gnosticism is one of the great pagan philosophies which antedated Christ and the Christian Era and which was later commingled with pure Christianity to form the apostate religion that has prevailed in the world since the early days of that era." (Mormon Doctrine, p.316).
 
 
 
President George Q. Cannon said: "After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon" (Gospel Truth, p.324).
 
 
President Wilford Woodruff stated: "the Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called" (Journal of Discourses , vol. 2, p.196).

44 posted on 12/05/2012 5:10:16 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
But it is perfectly okay to malign MormonISM as a hobby?

Any place that a MORMON has the nerve to start spouting any of their HERESY will turn in to a BASH.

Bold
ANTIs
Spotlighting
Heresy

45 posted on 12/05/2012 5:11:14 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

And since when are their panties available to non-mormons...

https://www.google.com/search?q=zcmi&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADRA_enUS475


46 posted on 12/05/2012 5:13:13 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

And since when are their panties available to non-mormons...

http://store.lds.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Category3_715839595_10557_21152_-1_Y_image_0


47 posted on 12/05/2012 5:15:05 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: svcw

The joys of auto correct on a smart phone.

http://www.penisland.net/

It ain’t what you think...


48 posted on 12/05/2012 5:17:07 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
The Southern Baptist Convention. says that MORMONism is a heresy.
49 posted on 12/05/2012 5:18:29 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Hound of the Baskervilles
The Southern Baptist Convention. says ...

http://www.truthandgrace.com/Baptistonmormon.htm

50 posted on 12/05/2012 5:20:27 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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