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The Sin of Sodom and Gomorrah is not about “Hospitality”
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | December 4, 2012 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 12/05/2012 2:30:46 PM PST by NYer

Late last week on the blog I made mention of the sins that “cry to heaven for vengeance.” The traditional list, is summarized in the Catechism which states The catechetical tradition also recalls that there are “sins that cry to heaven”: the blood of Abel, the sin of the Sodomites, the cry of the people oppressed in Egypt, the cry of the foreigner, the widow, and the orphan, injustice to the wage earner (# 1867).

It probably does not surprise you that I got push-back from certain homosexuals who wrote in to “remind” me that the sin of Sodom “has nothing to do with homosexual acts, or homosexual rape. Rather,” they said, “It is only about violations of hospitality rules of the ancient near east.”

I did not post these comments since I did not have time then to deal with this oft heard but very mistaken notion about the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. But the meaning of the story is not unclear, and attempts to radically reinterpret the fundamental issue at the core of the story, tell us more about the struggle of the “interpreter” than of the story which has a rather plain, unambiguous meaning. The sin, the abomination, of Sodom, while not excluding any number of injustices, is clearly set forth as widespread homosexual practice.

When interpreting the meaning of a passage we do well to look not only to the plain meaning of the text, but also to other Biblical texts that may refer back to it and help clarify any ambiguities. In this text we can do both.

So first let’s look at the text itself as set forth:

Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know.” The men turned away and went toward Sodom….The two arrived at Sodom in the evening, and Lot was sitting in the gateway of the city. When he saw them, he got up to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. “My lords,” he said, “please turn aside to your servant’s house. You can wash your feet and spend the night and then go on your way early in the morning.” “No,” they answered, “we will spend the night in the square.” But he insisted so strongly that they did go with him and entered his house. He prepared a meal for them, baking bread without yeast, and they ate. Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old—surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.” “Get out of our way,” they replied. And they said, “This fellow came here as an alien, and now he wants to play the judge! We’ll treat you worse than them.” They kept bringing pressure on Lot and moved forward to break down the door. But the men inside reached out and pulled Lot back into the house and shut the door. Then they struck the men who were at the door of the house, young and old, with blindness so that they could not find the door. The two men said to Lot, “Do you have anyone else here—sons-in-law, sons or daughters, or anyone else in the city who belongs to you? Get them out of here,because we are going to destroy this place. The outcry to the Lord against its people is so great that he has sent us to destroy it.” (Genesis 18:20-22; 19:1-13)

Now those who want to argue that this text is vague in meaning, begin by stating that the phrase “have sex with them” is more literally rendered from the Hebrew as “that we may know them.” And it is true that the Hebrew word יָדַע (yada) is rendered “know.” But this word is also a Hebrew idiom for carnal knowledge. For example in Genesis 4:1 we read: Now Adam knew (yada) Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying, “I have gotten a man with the help of the LORD.”

That the carnal knowledge meaning is intended here is also made clear in the context of what follows. Lot first calls their proposal a “wicked thing.” But just getting to know someone, or to greet a stranger, is not a wicked thing. Further that unlawful carnal knowledge is meant is also made clear in that Lot (horrifyingly) proposes that they have sex instead with his daughters “who have never slept with a man” (i.e. his virgin daughters).

It is true that Lot is further motivated by the fact that these men (angels in disguise) are under his care. But that does not change the nature of the threat that is involved, namely homosexual seduction or rape.

Being unable to dissuade “all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old” from the attempt at homosexual seduction, Lot is pulled to safety by the the two angelic visitors who tell Lot to get ready to go since they have come to destroy the city.

Now to the average reader who does not need to be defensive, the text conveys a clear message of widespread homosexuality in Sodom, a fact rather bluntly confirmed by the angelic visitors. And this is the clear emphasis of the story, not hospitality norms or other secondary concepts.

However, it may help to confirm this fact in other texts of the Bible and to legitimately ask if this is the only sin involved. Two texts are most specifically helpful in this regard. First there is a text from Ezekiel:

Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen. (Ezekiel 16:49-50)

Now this is the text used most often by those who deny any homosexual context in the sin of Sodom. And, to be fair, it does add a dimension to the outcry God hears. There are clearly additional sins at work in the outcry: pride, excess or greed, and indifference to the poor and needy. But there are also mentioned here unspecified “abominations.” The Hebrew word is תּוֹעֵבָ֖ה (tō·w·‘ê·ḇāh) which refers to any number of things God considers especially detestable, such as worshiping idols, immolating children, wrongful marriage and also homosexual acts. For example, Leviticus 18:22 uses the word in this context: Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.

But of itself, this text from Ezekiel does remind us that widespread homosexuality is not the only sin of Sodom. And while the abomination mentioned here may not be specified exactly, there is another Scriptural text that does specify things more clearly for us. It is from the Letter of Jude:

In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. In the very same way, these dreamers pollute their own bodies, reject authority and slander celestial beings. (Jude 7-8)

And thus it is specified that the central sin of Sodom involved “sexual immorality (ἐκπορνεύσασαι) and perversion (ἀπελθοῦσαι ὀπίσω σαρκὸς ἑτέρας – literally having departed to strange or different flesh).” And this would comport with the description of widespread homosexual practice in Sodom wherein the practitioners of this sin are described in Genesis 19 as including, “all the men from every part of the city of Sodom—both young and old.”

Hence we see that, while we should avoid seeing the sin of Sodom as only widespread homosexual acts (for what city has only one sin?), we cannot avoid that the Scriptures do teach that homosexual acts are central to the sins of Sodom which cry to heaven for vengeance, and for which God saw fit to bring a fiery end.

Genesis 19 speaks plainly of the sin, Ezekiel 16 broadens the description but retains the word “abomination,” and Jude 7 clearly attests to sexual perversion as being the central sin with which Sodom and Gomorrah were connected.

God the Holy Spirit has not failed to teach quite clearly on the fundamental nature of the sins involved in these ancient cities. Widespread homosexual practice is surely the keynote of condemnation received by these cities and attempts to recast the matter as a “hospitality” issue must be seen for the fanciful distortion they are.

I do not post this video because I agree with it, do really know what to think of it. Most Archeologists DO agree that the two cities were located right near what is today the Dead Sea, and this video falls in that general range. But archeologists are not at all certain that the many excavations in the area of the Dead Sea do in fact correspond to the cities called Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Search for Sodom & Gomorrah


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Theology
KEYWORDS: bible; charlespope; glsm; gomorrah; homosexualagenda; homosexuality; homosexualrape; hospitality; msgrcharlespope; perversion; pope; rape; sexualimmorality; sodom; sodomy

1 posted on 12/05/2012 2:30:51 PM PST by NYer
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To: NYer

I bring up the entire context from the numerous versus condemning homosexuality, especially Jude, with homo-apologists often. Some have had the gall to tell me that Jude was mistaken.


2 posted on 12/05/2012 2:35:42 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Not surprisingly, there are some nasty comments posted to the Monsignor’s blog.


3 posted on 12/05/2012 2:38:08 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: fwdude

I don’t even know why this keeps being a question. As you say Jude spells it out EXPLICITLY.

Jude 1:7
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.


4 posted on 12/05/2012 2:40:55 PM PST by DManA
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To: NYer

Not surprising at all.


5 posted on 12/05/2012 2:43:44 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer
Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion

Bunch of libertarians.... inhospitable libertarians.... :p

6 posted on 12/05/2012 2:44:08 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: NYer

Given the text in Genesis and from Jude, how can there be any debate? Homosexualiy is a sin ! No debate, no discission.


7 posted on 12/05/2012 2:49:54 PM PST by johnd201 (johnd201)
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Comment #8 Removed by Moderator

To: NYer

“No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them.

I’m guessing Lot was never a ‘father of the year’ candidate.


9 posted on 12/05/2012 2:53:25 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: fwdude
Try this one: Romans 1:26-28

Looking beyond scripture to the writings of the early Church Fathers, the admonitions are more intense.

"You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth."
Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

"[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities."
Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

And there are so many more.

10 posted on 12/05/2012 2:54:19 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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Comment #11 Removed by Moderator

To: trisham

Hospitality. LOL. I think the Lord was pretty clear about homosexuality. And don’t you pervs think about raping a couple of his angels either. How’d that work out for ya Sodomites?


12 posted on 12/05/2012 3:00:27 PM PST by Brownie63
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To: mporter345
"You shall not commit fornication; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not be a corrupter of youth."
Letter of Barnabas 10 (A.D. 74).

"[A]ll other frenzies of the lusts which exceed the laws of nature, and are impious toward both [human] bodies and the sexes, we banish, not only from the threshold but also from all shelter of the Church, for they are not sins so much as monstrosities."
Tertullian, Modesty 4 (A.D. 220).

13 posted on 12/05/2012 3:00:54 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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Comment #14 Removed by Moderator

To: mporter345
You leave out the fact that they conspired on their own to do this, they gave him wine and got him drunk.

You leave this out either knowingly or unknowingly.

God have mercy on your soul.
15 posted on 12/05/2012 3:03:25 PM PST by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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To: bramps

No place in the Bible does it say any person but Christ was perfect, usually just the opposite, I cite David. Faithfulness and repentance is the theme.


16 posted on 12/05/2012 3:04:24 PM PST by Resolute Conservative
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To: PieterCasparzen

I think mporter345 is about to be zotted permanently.


17 posted on 12/05/2012 3:06:18 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: NYer

I don’t know. Offering to bugger someone is pretty inhospitable.


18 posted on 12/05/2012 3:09:37 PM PST by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: Resolute Conservative

I hadn’t remembered Lot offering up his daughters and it really caught me. Do you or anyone else have any mitigating explanation for Lots behavior. I’m not being a wise guy. But then again, I am looking to become more of a wise guy.


19 posted on 12/05/2012 3:19:46 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: fwdude

He has been banned/suspended.


20 posted on 12/05/2012 3:21:15 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer

Homosexuality in various forms was not Sodoms only “sins”...
But they right up there with some of the greatest ones..

Like envy and lascivious promiscuity.. masochism and sadism..
Sodom had it going on with malfeasance.. of many types..
Like sexual dysfunction.. child abuse, and cheating on many levels..

Much like New York City..


21 posted on 12/05/2012 3:23:13 PM PST by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole..)
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To: bramps

I always thought it had something to do with the visitors. The Bible gives us the impression that they’re angels appearing as men, but Lot doesn’t act like they’re just a couple of guys. He immediately upon seeing them bows to the ground and full-on begs them to stay at his house. Then, to protect them from the Sodomite night life, he even offers up his virgin daughters to the crowd.

Obviously there was something very different or intense or whatever-you-like about these two guys for Lot to act this way.


22 posted on 12/05/2012 3:26:07 PM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: bramps

Well later Lot had sex with his daughters, while drunk, so NO - not father of the year material.


23 posted on 12/05/2012 3:32:34 PM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: hosepipe

Much like New York City..


...or Bill Clinton’s office.


24 posted on 12/05/2012 3:36:09 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: allmendream

Lot’s daughter’s plotted to get Lot drunk and have sex for fear of not having children while hidden away. If the bible thought it was important enough to mention, you might’ve thought about mentioning it too.


25 posted on 12/05/2012 3:43:31 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: NYer

Come on guys! The story is clear. The meaning is clear. Homosexuality is wrong. None of this other crap matters. Homosexyuality is wrong. That’s the meaning of this story. There is no other meaning dispite channel 12 (Government Sponsered Radio). It wasn’t that the sodomites were inhospitible. It wasn’t that they didn’t share. Look at the words. They are clear. Then draw your own conclusion. That is what the bible is all about. There is no ambiguity. There is no cloudiness. It is perfectly clear what the offense was. It was homosexuality. Of that there is no question. Read it for yourself.


26 posted on 12/05/2012 3:46:48 PM PST by maxwellsmart_agent
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To: maxwellsmart_agent

Maybe God does leaves a little room for disagreement (both here and throughout the bible) to weed out those who are intentionally looking to turn from him.


27 posted on 12/05/2012 3:56:04 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2965908/posts?page=2


28 posted on 12/05/2012 3:59:23 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Brownie63
"Hospitality. LOL. I think the Lord was pretty clear about homosexuality. And don’t you pervs think about raping a couple of his angels either. How’d that work out for ya Sodomites?"

LOL

It's been a stressful day, and I needed a laugh. That was good.

29 posted on 12/05/2012 4:13:28 PM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: NYer

Of course some wits have suggested that if the major sin of Sodom was rampant male on male homosexuality; was the sin of Gomorrah that of Northampton, Massachusetts?


30 posted on 12/05/2012 4:25:50 PM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Pennies and Nickels will NO LONGER be Minted as of 1/1/13 - Tim Geithner, US Treasury Sect)
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To: bramps

I suppose being drunk excuses a lot! Lighten up Francis.


31 posted on 12/05/2012 4:41:00 PM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: trisham
He has been banned/suspended.

Member since 2008. Wonder how he/she/it lasted so long.

32 posted on 12/05/2012 5:04:10 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: fwdude

Flying under the radar like a bat. :)


33 posted on 12/05/2012 5:15:52 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: NYer; bramps
Lot (horrifyingly) proposes that they have sex instead with his daughters “who have never slept with a man” (i.e. his virgin daughters).

It is horrifying and also elucidating the main point, that sodomy is a worse sin than heterosexual rape -- since Abraham offers to at least not to step outside the boundaries of normal, heterosexual sexual appetite.

homosexual acts are central to the sins of Sodom

Indeed, other sins flow from this cardinal sin of sodomy. That is because a homosexual act is pure selfishness, -- there is no redeeming quality to it as there is no possibility of an offspring. No wonder the sodomites also turn out to suffer from "pride, excess or greed, and indifference to the poor and needy" -- they only think of their own pleasure.

34 posted on 12/05/2012 5:53:13 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: annalex

Appreciate your wisdom.


35 posted on 12/05/2012 6:22:06 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

Some exegetes argue that Lot knew very well that the Sodomites weren’t interested in girls, and was taunting them. You notice from the text that they become noticeably more hostile after Lot offers them his daughters.


36 posted on 12/05/2012 6:33:28 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: Campion

Interesting point. And I learned a new word (exegete). Thanks. I earlier said that I wasn’t trying to be a wise guy but was trying to be a ‘wise’ guy. I came to the right place.


37 posted on 12/05/2012 7:10:01 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: All; fwdude
I bring up the entire context from the numerous versus condemning homosexuality, especially Jude, with homo-apologists often. Some have had the gall to tell me that Jude was mistaken.

Here are some references for you or any interested:

Sacred Scripture on subject of homosexuality:

New Testament (NAB): Sacred Scripture on subject of homosexuality:

  1. Matthew 5:17-19

    17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill.

    18 Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.

    19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

  2. Matthew 10:14-15

    14 Whoever will not receive you or listen to your words - go outside that house or town and shake the dust from your feet.

    15 Amen, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

  3. Matthew 11:19-24

    19 The Son of Man came eating and drinking and they said, 'Look, he is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.' But wisdom is vindicated by her works."

    20 Then he began to reproach the towns where most of his mighty deeds had been done, since they had not repented.

    21 "Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would long ago have repented in sackcloth and ashes.

    22 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.

    23 And as for you, Capernaum: 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.' For if the mighty deeds done in your midst had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.

    24 But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

  4. Matthew 15:19

    19 For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, unchastity, theft, false witness, blasphemy.

  5. 1 Timothy 1:8-11

    8 We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,

    9 with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,

    10 the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,

    11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

  6. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

    9 Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals

    10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.

  7. Romans 1:22-27

    22 While claiming to be wise, they became fools

    23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for the likeness of an image of mortal man or of birds or of four-legged animals or of snakes.

    24 Therefore, God handed them over to impurity through the lusts of their hearts for the mutual degradation of their bodies.

    25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and revered and worshiped the creature rather than the creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

    26 Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,

    27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

  8. Jude 1:7

    7 Likewise, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the surrounding towns, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual promiscuity and practiced unnatural vice, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Old Testament (NAB): Sacred Scripture on subject of homosexuality:

  1. Genesis 18:20-22

    20 Then the LORD said: "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great, and their sin so grave,

    21 that I must go down and see whether or not their actions fully correspond to the cry against them that comes to me. I mean to find out."

    22 While the two men walked on farther toward Sodom, the LORD remained standing before Abraham.

  2. Genesis 19:4-25

    4 Before they went to bed, all the townsmen of Sodom, both young and old - all the people to the last man - closed in on the house.

    5 They called to Lot and said to him, "Where are the men who came to your house tonight? Bring them out to us that we may have intimacies with them."

    6 Lot went out to meet them at the entrance. When he had shut the door behind him,

    7 he said, "I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing.

    8 I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don't do anything to these men, for you know they have come under the shelter of my roof."

    9 They replied, "Stand back! This fellow," they sneered, "came here as an immigrant, and now he dares to give orders! We'll treat you worse than them!" With that, they pressed hard against Lot, moving in closer to break down the door.

    10 But his guests put out their hands, pulled Lot inside with them, and closed the door;

    11 at the same time they struck the men at the entrance of the house, one and all, with such a blinding light that they were utterly unable to reach the doorway.

    12 Then the angels said to Lot: "Who else belongs to you here? Your sons (sons-in-law) and your daughters and all who belong to you in the city - take them away from it!

    13 We are about to destroy this place, for the outcry reaching the LORD against those in the city is so great that he has sent us to destroy it."

    ◄▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬►

    23 The sun was just rising over the earth as Lot arrived in Zoar;

    24 at the same time the LORD rained down sulphurous fire upon Sodom and Gomorrah (from the LORD out of heaven).

    25 He overthrew those cities and the whole Plain, together with the inhabitants of the cities and the produce of the soil.

  3. Leviticus 18:22

    22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.

  4. Leviticus 20:13

    13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.

38 posted on 12/05/2012 9:14:24 PM PST by DBeers (†)
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To: NYer
what I do not understand is why homosexuals who want to justify their lifestyle, why do they stick to Christianity and trying to change Christianity when it is has definite injuncts against homosexuality?

Why not become Wiccan? Or form their own religion?

39 posted on 12/05/2012 10:20:52 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
what I do not understand is why homosexuals who want to justify their lifestyle, why do they stick to Christianity and trying to change Christianity when it is has definite injuncts against homosexuality?

Perhaps they believe that since God "made them this way", then He must condone such a lifestyle.

40 posted on 12/06/2012 4:46:46 AM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: Cronos

Self loathing seeks solace. Pelosi the baby-killer is also an example of this.


41 posted on 12/06/2012 4:49:09 AM PST by King Moonracer (Bad lighting and cheap fabric, that's how you sell clothing.....)
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To: All
“Gaydar”, as defined by the bible.

Isaiah 3:9
The shew of their countenance doth witness against them; and they declare their sin as Sodom, they hide it not. Woe unto their soul! for they have rewarded evil unto themselves.

42 posted on 12/06/2012 12:20:31 PM PST by Ripliancum (Mosiah 29:27. Look it up.)
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To: NYer

We were at a mission last night and the priest said, “If you went to Lowes and bought an extension cord and got home and saw that it had two male ends you would take it back! It is defective. It won’t work!”


43 posted on 12/06/2012 2:17:35 PM PST by tiki
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To: tiki
Wow! Simple yet excellent analogy, in the style of Pope Benedict XVI. I recall how, shortly after he was elevated, the pope met with a group of young children preparing to make their First Communion. These children had submitted questions including one from a young boy named Andrea. Here is the exchange:

3. Andrea

In preparing me for my First Communion day, my catechist told me that Jesus is present in the Eucharist. But how? I can't see him!

No, we cannot see him, but there are many things that we do not see but they exist and are essential. For example: we do not see our reason, yet we have reason. We do not see our intelligence and we have it. In a word: we do not see our soul and yet it exists and we see its effects, because we can speak, think and make decisions, etc. Nor do we see an electric current, for example, yet we see that it exists; we see this microphone, that it is working, and we see lights. Therefore, we do not see the very deepest things, those that really sustain life and the world, but we can see and feel their effects. This is also true for electricity; we do not see the electric current but we see the light.

So it is with the Risen Lord: we do not see him with our eyes but we see that wherever Jesus is, people change, they improve. A greater capacity for peace, for reconciliation, etc., is created. Therefore, we do not see the Lord himself but we see the effects of the Lord: so we can understand that Jesus is present. And as I said, it is precisely the invisible things that are the most profound, the most important. So let us go to meet this invisible but powerful Lord who helps us to live well.

44 posted on 12/06/2012 3:02:19 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
Actually, it was about hospitality (and the treatment of strangers, as homosexual rape). But homosexuality is still a capital offense (from Leviticus 18 and the Noachide Laws).

Genesis 19 is not the source of the prohibition of homosexuality. Homosexuality was already a captial offense, and it remains one today.

45 posted on 12/06/2012 4:19:43 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

I’ve long thought that the reason the Tanakh did not explicitly condemn lesbianism was that it would have interfered with certain practices within polygamous marriage, which was then widespread. In error, I believe. But nonetheless widespread.


46 posted on 12/07/2012 7:48:50 PM PST by onedoug
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