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Catholics, Protestants, and Immaculate Mary
The Catholic Thing ^ | December 8, 2012 | David G. Bonagura, Jr.

Posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:39 PM PST by NYer

Do Catholics worship Mary? This question is as old as the Protestant Reformation itself, and it rests, like other disputed doctrinal points, on a false premise that has been turned into a wedge: the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ.

This seeming opposition between Mary and Christ is symptomatic of the Protestant tendency, begun by Luther, to view the entirety of Christian life through a dialectical lens – a lens of conflict and division. With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken and its formerly coherent elements are now set in opposition. The Gospel versus the Law. Faith versus Works. Scripture versus Tradition. Authority versus Individuality. Faith versus Reason. Christ versus Mary.

The Catholic tradition rightly sees the mutual complementarity of these elements of the faith, as they all contribute to our ultimate end – living with God now and in eternity. To choose any one of these is to choose them all.

By contrast, to assert that Catholics worship Mary along with or in place of Christ, or that praying to Mary somehow impedes Christ’s role as “the one mediator between God and men” (1 Tim 2:5) is to create a false dichotomy between the Word made flesh and the woman who gave the Word his flesh. No such opposition exists. The one Mediator entrusted his mediation to the will and womb of Mary. She does not impede his mediation – she helps to make it possible.

Within this context we see the ancillary role that the ancilla Domini plays in her divine Son’s mission. Mary’s is not a surrogate womb rented and then forgotten in God’s plan. She is physically connected to Christ and his life, and because of this she is even more deeply connected to him in the order of grace. She is, in fact, “full of grace,” as only one who is redeemed by Christ could be.

The feast of Mary’s Immaculate Conception celebrates the very first act of salvation by Christ in the world. Redemption is made possible for all by his precious blood shed on the cross. Yet Mary’s role in the Savior’s life and mission is so critical and so unique that God saw it necessary to wash her in the blood of the Lamb in advance, at the first moment of her conception.

Called (from the series Woman) ©2006 Bruce Herman
  [oil on wood, 65 x 48”; collection of Bjorn and Barbara Iwarsson] For more information visit http://bruceherman.com

This reality could not be more Biblical: the angel greets Mary as “full of grace” (Luke 1:28), which is literally rendered as “already graced” (kecharitōmenē). Following Mary, the Church has “pondered what sort of greeting this might be” for centuries. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception, ultimately defined in 1854, is nothing other than a rational expression of the angel’s greeting contained in Scripture: Mary is “already graced” with Christ’s redemption at the very moment of her creation.

Because God called Mary to the unique vocation of serving as the Mother of God, it is not just her soul that is graced, as is the case for us when we receive the sacraments. Mary’s entire being, body and soul, is full of grace so that she may be a worthy ark for the New Covenant. And just as the ark of the old covenant was adorned with gold to be a worthy house for God’s word, Mary is conceived without original sin to be the living and holy house for God’s Word.

Thus Mary is not only conceived immaculately, that is, without stain of sin. She also is the Immaculate Conception. Her entire being was specifically created by God with unique privilege so that she could fulfill her role in God’s plan of salvation. “Free from sin,” both original and personal, is the necessary consequence of being “full of grace.”

Protestants claim that veneration of Mary as it is practiced by Catholics is not biblical. St. Paul encouraged the Corinthians to “be imitators of me, as I am of Christ” (1 Cor 11:1). Paul is not holding himself up as the end goal, but as a means to Christ, the true end. And if a person is imitated, he is simultaneously venerated.

If we should imitate Paul, how much more should we imitate Mary, who fulfilled God’s will to the greatest degree a human being could. Throughout her life she humbled herself so that God could be exalted, and because of this, Christ has fulfilled his promise by exalting his lowly mother to the seat closest to him in God’s kingdom.

Mary is the model of humility, charity, and openness to the will of God. She allows a sword to pierce her heart for the sake of the world’s salvation. She shows us the greatness to which we are called: a life free from sin and filled with God’s grace that leads to union with God in Heaven. She is the model disciple, and therefore worthy of imitation and veneration, not as an end in herself, but as the means to the very purpose of her – and our – existence: Christ himself.

God’s lowly handmaiden would not want it any other way.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: mary
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David G. Bonagura, Jr. is an adjunct professor of theology at the Seminary of the Immaculate Conception, Huntington, New York
1 posted on 12/08/2012 2:24:43 PM PST by NYer
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To: netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; Berlin_Freeper; Litany; SumProVita; ...

Catholic ping!


2 posted on 12/08/2012 2:25:35 PM PST by NYer ("Before I formed you in the womb I knew you." --Jeremiah 1:5)
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To: NYer
With the Reformation the integrity of Christianity is broken

Very true; and faith itself is gone. The Protestant faith is feeble coasting on the magnificent Catholic faith while complaining bitterly about it.

3 posted on 12/08/2012 2:34:38 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: NYer
Catholics, Protestants and Immaculate Mary
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"I Am The Immaculate Conception"
The Corona of the Immaculate Conception [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Caucus: Immaculate Conception Novena Prayer Thread
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Feast of the The Conception by St. Anna of the Most Holy Theotokos December 9th
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LAND OF MARY IMMACULATE [Ecumenical]
Mary as the New Eve - St. Irenaeus
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THE LIFE OF BLESSED JOHN DUNS SCOTUS, Defender of the Immaculate Conception [Catholic Caucus]
An Unfathomable Marian Richness [Catholic Caucus]
Catholic Biblical Apologetics: The Immaculate Conception of Mary
History of the Feast of the Immaculate Conception - December 8 [Catholic Caucus]
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St. John Neumann and the Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception (Catholic Caucus)
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Immaculate Conception Novena -- starts November 30th [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
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Saint Bernadette of Lourdes (Sermon from 1934)

My visit to the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception
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The Belief of Catholics concerning the Blessed Virgin: the Second Eve
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Pope: Mary the Immaculate Conception... (text of BXVI speech)
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Why the Immaculate Conception?
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Why do we believe in the Immaculate Conception?
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Memorandum on the Immaculate Conception [Newman]

4 posted on 12/08/2012 2:35:25 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: NYer
...the woman who gave the Word his flesh

(Sigh) Mary gave Jesus nothing that he didn't already have. He took it, without her consent.

There was no asking involved.

9 posted on 12/08/2012 3:41:23 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: fwdude

Huh?


10 posted on 12/08/2012 3:57:11 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: fwdude

Mary got EVERYTHING from Jesus, good grief, did you forget that Jesus was God? The second person of the Holy Trinity?


11 posted on 12/08/2012 3:59:05 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: SVTCobra03

So Mary in a fictionous acount in heaven says things you do not even see yourself but from made up sources for a comic strip. You connect dots. How interesting. It is a belief. As beliefs go. Anyone can qoute scripture to their own purpose.


12 posted on 12/08/2012 4:15:21 PM PST by johngrace (I am a 1 John 4! Christian- declared at every Sunday Mass , Divine Mercy and Rosary prayers!)
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To: NYer

Catholics ask Mary to pray for them. IIRC the Bible tells us to pray to the saints. Surely Mary is a saint. I would love to know that Mary was praying for me. That does not mean that I would be worshipping her.


13 posted on 12/08/2012 4:17:14 PM PST by abclily
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To: abclily
Well, you don't know that specifically for each prayer; that is always the case that not every prayer is answered:

You ask, and receive not; because you ask amiss(James 4:3)

You do know, however, that all saints are seeing us and praying for us:

And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us: Looking on Jesus, the author and finisher of faith, who having joy set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and now sitteth on the right hand of the throne of God. (Hebrews 12:1-2)

another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God. And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel. (Apocalypse/Revelation 8:3-4)


14 posted on 12/08/2012 4:44:53 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: fwdude
"He took it, without her consent"

And hence the popularity of contraception among non-Catholic women who are afraid that non-Catholic men will imitate Christ and take what they want without asking.

15 posted on 12/08/2012 5:26:04 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: annalex

"I say, thats putting it rathah bluntly sir..."

16 posted on 12/08/2012 5:46:14 PM PST by Wyrd bi ful ard (Gone Galt, 11/07/12)
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To: Wyrd bið ful aræd

Bluntly is the only way to evangelize the arrogant.


17 posted on 12/08/2012 5:52:40 PM PST by annalex (fear them not)
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To: NYer

Bookmark. Thanks.


18 posted on 12/08/2012 6:23:25 PM PST by nralife (www.fireholder.com)
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To: NYer
Thank you so very much for this posting.
I shall send it around.

To step out a bit here, these are the types
of things which we need to give fellow Christians to
help them to become more faithful, more certain and more courageous in their faith.

As a Catholic Christian, I need to grow in my faith and conviction, before I can become a more effective speaker of God's Truth and help to change our culture.

I am working on that. I need to. I have not given enough attention to my duties in life, as I, like so many Americans, have grappled with the sudden financial reverses that have come to us as we have seemingly lost our way after Ronald Reagan's second term.

Frankly, I believe that if we do not change our culture, we will see more painful election results, as we saw this November.

Economic theories, without an underlying moral cultural component, will not cut it.

Sursum Corda

19 posted on 12/08/2012 6:44:07 PM PST by Sursum Corda (Sursum Corda)
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To: fwdude
(Sigh) Mary gave Jesus nothing that he didn't already have.

Do tell. Jesus had a human nature before the Incarnation? So, on Christmas, we're celebrating that nothing much really changed?

He took it, without her consent.

Sounds like a criminal offense to me. Is that really how you think God operates? Sounds like something out of some other religion that's in the news a lot.

20 posted on 12/08/2012 7:07:21 PM PST by Campion ("Social justice" begins in the womb)
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To: NYer
the veneration of Mary detracts from the worship of Christ

I remember when I thought along these lines when I was starting to learn about the faith. The first time I read some of Mary's titles in the litany my jaw about hit the floor.

I understand now that it's because I was looking at Mary WITHOUT Christ. But when you view her with him, you understand that she only reflects what she's been given by him. And when you view Christ with Mary, it's more than the mind can take in. At least for me.

Imagine being so humble that you, God, deign to dwell inside a mere human being for 9 months, totally dependent on her. That you place yourself under the authority of this woman and her spouse. That you allow these two, who You created, to raise you. Teach you to walk. Talk. Pray. Worship. Can you imagine? You're God and you let Joseph teach you your prayers? Mary teach you your manners?

Yes, I can ponder Mary's obedience or Joseph's acceptance of responsibility. There's so much each of their lives can teach me by example. But it ultimately circles back to the Holy Trinity. Each of the Three Persons condescended and humbled Themselves in the Incarnation. And they did it to save you and me. I appreciate our good God more not less when I contemplate Joseph or Mary. I find it adds to my worship because I realize I have more to be thankful for than I can even begin to imagine.

I love being Catholic! It's helped me to love Christ more, not less.

21 posted on 12/08/2012 7:08:03 PM PST by PeevedPatriot
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To: annalex
How would you justify to the hundreds if not thousands of innocent little boys raped by priests that were moved about by cardinal Law in Boston that they should believe in a faith that rewarded the man who fed them to PRIESTS he KNEW were RAPISTS. He was rewarded by a life of luxury alongside the pope no less. Exactly what would you say to these victims? I'm certain that you'll attack me, but somewhere fit in what you'd say to the rape victims. Thanks.
22 posted on 12/08/2012 7:16:31 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: NYer
Catholics pray to Mary for this reason: "C'mon Jesus, Mary is your mother, you HAVE to do what she tells you".

That's it.
23 posted on 12/08/2012 7:32:37 PM PST by crosshairs (Hurricane Barry is 1000 times more destructive than Hurricane Sandy.)
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To: abclily

Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry.


24 posted on 12/08/2012 7:38:41 PM PST by crosshairs (Hurricane Barry is 1000 times more destructive than Hurricane Sandy.)
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To: bramps

I will make absolutely no excuse for the people involved in the victimization of innocents. I also do not worship humans because they will disappoint you every time. My faith is in God, Jesus Christ and The Holy Spirit - not a priest. I work for a Catholic organization and see every day that priests are human too.


25 posted on 12/08/2012 7:43:49 PM PST by Clintons Are White Trash (Lynn Stewart, Helen Thomas, Rosie ODonnell, Maureen Dowd, Medea Benjamin - The Axis of Ugly)
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To: bramps
Humans sin. Some humans who sin are Catholics in the priesthood. Those who like to pretend that an individual committing a sin is the same thing as the entire Church being wrong don't deny all the Christian groups that condone murder by contraception nor do they claim all such groups are totally worthless because members of that group routinely murder their own children.

Obviously that's a self-serving double standard because while one group had perverts in it's midst that sexually gratified themselves with children, the other group condones murder committed in order to ensure that sexual self gratification isn't interfered with.

Exactly what do you day to the victims?

The tens of millions of victims of murder for the sake of sexual gratification that were each and every single one endorsed by these non-Catholic churches?

26 posted on 12/08/2012 7:44:22 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: crosshairs
If it's idolatry to use the word "prayer" as it's been defined for centuries, then everyone who is Christian had better stay out of courts based on English common law. Either that or stop the stupid pretense that the word “prayer” means what they want it to mean and nothing else.

A prayer is something wished for or requested of another, you can pray for the judge to continue your judgment, pray for a specific redress, and so on, the same way you can call a barrister in England “your worship” and not be worshiping that individual as God or a god.

Folks who make up their own religion, though, like to start out by redefining terms to suit their own twisting of Scripture. Due to that fact they often can't understand a simple word like "prayer" because they've accepted the twisted definition their own personal religion finds useful in furthering their lies and their slanders of others.

Likewise, such followers of false religions cannot meet and accept Christ because they refuse to accept Christ as He is and insist that their version of Christ conform to their own personal religion so they can go along to get along in a pagan society.

27 posted on 12/08/2012 8:07:47 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Rashputin
The tens of millions of victims of murder for the sake of sexual gratification that were each and every single one endorsed by these non-Catholic churches?

It's a crock to label all non Catholic churches under the same umbrella. I know there are countless Christian frauds out there. The Catholic church does have a hierarchy, however, that knew children were being raped and basically was complicit in it. They talk about being pro life yet are silent about the baby killers running Washington. And your dollars pay for their opulent lifestyle. Open your eyes.
28 posted on 12/08/2012 8:11:27 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: fwdude
(Sigh) Mary gave Jesus nothing that he didn't already have. He took it, without her consent.

Perhaps you forgot about this line:

Mary said, “Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word.”
--Luke 1:38

29 posted on 12/08/2012 8:13:18 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: bramps
Vultus Christi

The Mother, the Child, and the Serpent

 on December 7, 2012 11:55 AM |
 
48palaf.jpg

The New Adam

Caravaggio's Madonna dei Palafrenieri, first exhibited in Saint Peter's Basilica in 1606, is wonderfully disturbing. While Grandmother Saint Anne looks on, the Virgin Mother Mary allows the Child Jesus to place His little foot on top of hers; together the Mother and the Child crush the head of the serpent under their feet. The nakedness of the Child Jesus suggests that He is indeed the New Adam who, by His innocence, inaugurates a new creation: the Kingdom of God where only little children are allowed to enter.

Sexual Abuse: The Dark Sin

The darkness of this painting, so typical of Caravaggio, and the sinister writhing of the serpent combine with the purity of the Infant Christ to speak poignantly to the tragic drama of the sexual abuse of children. Adults who were sexually abused as children never really recover from the serpent's venomous bite. The poison has a delayed release. Its effects are experienced over time, triggering emotional chaos, spiritual distress, and even chronic physical illness. The serpent, moreover, hides in the darkness, biding its time in anticipation of new attacks.

Therapy

While therapy or some form of counseling is certainly helpful in dealing with the long-term effects of the serpent's bite, it is not sufficient. Rarely is a complete healing possible through therapy alone. In my experience, most persons struggling with the effects of sexual abuse will suffer recurrent crises, although with time these may become less frequent and less debilitating. The benefit of therapy is in helping the individual to identify what things trigger crises, what things feed into the chaos, and what strategies are effective in countering recurrent difficulties.

Supernatural Means

Ultimately, one is obliged to confront the evil, in its origin and in its effects, on spiritual ground and with supernatural means. This is where the adult living with the effects of sexual abuse as a child finds it necessary to identify with the Infant Christ in entrusting himself entirely to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

48palaf-1.jpg

The Lord God said unto the serpent, I will put enmity between Thee and the Woman, and between thy seed and her Seed, which same shall bruise thy head, alleluia. (Antiphon at the Benedictus on December 8th, Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception)

Consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary

Consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary leads one to place one's own foot on hers in total confidence. So long as the serpent's head remains under the foot of the Immaculate Virgin and one's own foot rests on hers, the effects of the abuse are held in check. The serpent may writhe and hiss, but ultimately the All-Holy Mother of God and her Seed, that is the Infant Christ and those who belong to Him, will crush its head.

The Immaculate Conception

The Solemnity of the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary is of all days the most favourable to make or to renew a personal consecration to the Immaculate Mother of God, especially if one struggles with the long-term effects of sexual abuse. The renewal of one's consecration to the Blessed Virgin Mary opens again and again the floodgates of the graces given her by God for distribution to the weakest and most wounded of her children.

The Rosary: Where Hope Flowers

One will also find in the humble prayer of the Rosary an indispensable protection and a source of inner healing. The mysteries of the infancy and childhood of Christ are supremely effective in countering the effects of a childhood marred by abuse. In the presence of the Immaculate Virgin and her Child there flowers the hope of a serene and fruitful life. "Give glory to the Lord for thy good things, and bless the God eternal, that He may rebuild His tabernacle in thee" (Tobias 13:12).


30 posted on 12/08/2012 8:15:51 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bramps


31 posted on 12/08/2012 8:17:20 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: crosshairs
Prayer is offered to God, never to any created thing. To do so is to offer worship that should only be directed to God, which is idolatry.

Pray tell, do you not understand the difference between prayer and worship?

32 posted on 12/08/2012 8:17:58 PM PST by Petrosius
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To: NYer; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


33 posted on 12/08/2012 8:25:24 PM PST by narses
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To: NYer; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; PJBankard; scottjewell; ebb tide; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.


34 posted on 12/08/2012 8:26:16 PM PST by narses
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To: Salvation

I missed the part where it says, “feed lobster and caviar to the Cardinal who sacrificed little boys to be raped but kept the church out of the headlines.”

It’s sad to have to believe from all the heads still in the sand that if victims didn’t come forward, Law and many others VERY HIGH in the Catholic church would still be silent and allowing little boys to be raped.

Seriously, is there any rational reason not to believe that?


35 posted on 12/08/2012 8:26:43 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

Christ’s Church will win out in the end. Did you get that message? The serpent’s head will be crushed.

Just remember:
One
Holy
Catholic
Apostolic

All churches have sinners within them.

What church do you attend?


36 posted on 12/08/2012 8:39:48 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: bramps
What's a crock is anyone who condones the murder to infants on the alter of either economics or their sex life pretending they have even a clue about what's right and wrong left in their skulls.

Those who pretend the tens of millions of infants murdered by contraceptive (at least twice as many as have been aborted) is a lesser sin than whatever they choose to point to, obviously haven't filled the empty space in their skull with even a tiny bit of honesty.

37 posted on 12/08/2012 9:01:16 PM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: Salvation

I attend a Baptist church and it’s the only one I answer for. The one thing I can say with certainty is that if anyone (nevermind an elder) was found to be doing what Bernie Law did, he’d be brought staight to jail. What did you and your fellow Catholics do?Something I can also say with certainty we’d never do, reward him with your tithes that feed him lobster and his luxurious lifestyle alongside the Pope. Just humor me and at least tell me that bothers you a teeny little bit.


38 posted on 12/08/2012 9:39:08 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: Rashputin
Your points could only leave an adversary speechless.
39 posted on 12/08/2012 9:44:46 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

See http://home.catholicweb.com/olguadalupeprolife/index.cfm/NewsItem?ID=275734&From=Home and search for “baptist”, then get back to us at how sin free your splinter group really is.


40 posted on 12/08/2012 9:57:11 PM PST by narses
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To: narses
I never even knew I had a splinter group. Like I said, I speak only for my ONE church, but if Narses says I have a ‘splinter’ group (whatever that is), what can I do but agree. I'll talk to them in the morning. Thanks. You're a pal.

But yet your PRIMARY group and your money is providing a life of luxury for a man who fed little boys to priests to be raped. I bet like most sane people, you got pretty ticked off at all the folks at Penn State who knew what was going on with Jerry Sandusky yet stayed silent. Well, imagine the FACT that you are paying the bills for a man who did just that! Happy Tithes!

41 posted on 12/08/2012 10:15:26 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

So how many “Churches” did Our Lord found?


42 posted on 12/08/2012 10:16:31 PM PST by narses
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To: annalex

I don’t see any specific saint called out for veneration in those quotes, hoss. And be very specific where any of the books of the New Testament call for us to specifically venerate Mary. Love to be shown this.


43 posted on 12/08/2012 10:39:06 PM PST by Liberty Tree Surgeon (Mow your own lawn!)
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To: Petrosius
Perhaps you forgot about this line:

And perhaps you forgot this preceding one:

And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
--Luke 1:31

Nope, no request there.

44 posted on 12/08/2012 10:40:14 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Campion

There was NO beseeching request made by the Angel on behalf of God of Mary whatsoever. Please, show me in Scripture.


45 posted on 12/08/2012 10:42:14 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Liberty Tree Surgeon
And be very specific where any of the books of the New Testament call for us to specifically venerate Mary.

Bingo, LT. None can be found.

You'd think that an item of doctrine so essential to the Faith would be ubiquitous throughout the epistles of the New Testament.

46 posted on 12/08/2012 10:45:37 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: Salvation
Mary got EVERYTHING from Jesus, good grief, did you forget that Jesus was God? The second person of the Holy Trinity?

Then stop "venerating" Mary as an almost goddess. She would be appalled.

And the RCC is considering elevating her to the position of "co-redemptrix".... good grief!

47 posted on 12/08/2012 10:51:21 PM PST by fwdude ( You cannot compromise with that which you must defeat.)
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To: narses
He welcomes anyone who repents and believes. Or did you find a source that supersedes the New Testament?
48 posted on 12/08/2012 11:45:02 PM PST by bramps (Sarah Palin got more votes in 2008 than Romney did in 2012)
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To: bramps

Is that one Church or many that He welcomes us into?


49 posted on 12/08/2012 11:57:51 PM PST by narses
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To: fwdude
Luke 1:38 And Mary said : Behold the handmaid of the Lord ; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
50 posted on 12/09/2012 1:46:57 AM PST by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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