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On the three person Trinity at Christmastime [New Church, Open]
Fri Dec 14, 2012 | Self

Posted on 12/14/2012 8:28:31 AM PST by DaveMSmith

I'd like to pose a question to the defenders of the three 'person' Trinity:

Matt 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: After His mother Mary was betrothed to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Spirit.

Luke 1:34 Then Mary said to the angel, "How can this be, since I do not know a man?" 35 And the angel answered and said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.

Now, if the Holy Spirit were a person, would this Scripture not indicate He is Jesus' Father, not Jehovah?


TOPICS: General Discusssion; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: cult; newchurch; swedenborg; vanity
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Nothing fancy here, just logic from the most familiar of Bible stories.
1 posted on 12/14/2012 8:28:38 AM PST by DaveMSmith
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To: Cronos

Ping


2 posted on 12/14/2012 8:29:48 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
The Trinity

The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

The parallelism of the Father, the Son, and the Spirit is not unique to Matthew’s Gospel, but appears elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 2 Cor. 13:14, Heb. 9:14), as well as in the writings of the earliest Christians, who clearly understood them in the sense that we do today—that the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are three divine persons who are one divine being (God).
3 posted on 12/14/2012 8:41:11 AM PST by RedMDer (Please support Toys for Tots this CHRISTmas season.)
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To: DaveMSmith

God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are consubstantial or “of one being” or “one in being.”


4 posted on 12/14/2012 8:42:48 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: DaveMSmith
Where the Son is, the Father and the Holy Spirit are also.

Your selective bolding notwithstanding.

5 posted on 12/14/2012 8:45:47 AM PST by wideawake
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To: RedMDer

I believe God is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ.


6 posted on 12/14/2012 8:46:32 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
The Holy Trinity is a holy and blessed mystery. Please read some of these FR posts about the Trinity.

1 and 1 and 1 Makes One. A meditation on the Solemnity of the Holy Trinity
The Trinity: Three Persons in One Nature
Essays for Lent: The Trinity
Pope to theologians: focus on the Trinity
Defend the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity! [Catholic caucus]
Hold Fast to the Confession of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit [Catholic Caucus]
[Ecumenical] Lent through Eastertide - Divine Mercy Diary Exerpts: The Holy Trinity
One God, Three Equal Persons: St. Gregory of Nazianzus {Ecumenical Thread}

Radio Replies Second Volume - The Holy Trinity
The Blessed Trinity {Ecumenical}
A Mystery for Eternity (Reflection on the Solemnity of the Most Holy Trinity)
On the Trinity (Angelus Address from 5/30/2010)
Mystery of the Trinity
The Trinity: More Than Just Doctrine
Origen on the Trinity: A Man Ahead of His Time
Why Mormon Baptism Is Invalid: Sect´s Concept of the Trinity Differs from Christian Notion
Radio Replies First Volume - The Holy Trinity
‘We live to love and be loved,’ teaches Pope while reflecting on Trinity (absolutely beautiful!)

Deathbed Request: 'Tell me About the Trinity’
Catholic Doctrine on the Holy Trinity
The Most Holy Trinity
What You [Catholics] Need to Know: Trinity [Catholic/Orthodox Caucus]
The Holy Trinity (excerpt from the Light of Faith by St. Thomas Aquinas)
The Concept of the Most Holy Trinity - The Relationship between the Three Persons in One God
A Brief Catechism for Adults - Lesson 3: God and the Holy Trinity
Sheed on the Trinity (Catholic Caucus)
The Father as the Source of the Whole Trinity - Greek and Latin Traditions About the Filioque
Trinity Facts

The Real Trinity
We believe in one only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit
Brief Reflections on the Trinity, the Canon of Scripture, and the Protestant idea of Sola Scriptura
Why Do We Believe in the Trinity?
The Holy Trinity
Trinity Sunday (and the Trinity season)
Trinitarian Mystery
HaSheeloosh HaKadosh: The Holy Trinity
MARY’S RELATIONSHIP WITH THE TRINITY
The Divine Trinity

7 posted on 12/14/2012 8:46:51 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: D-fendr

The Holy Spirit is whose Spirit? God’s?


8 posted on 12/14/2012 8:48:19 AM PST by winkadink (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. George Orwell)
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To: DaveMSmith

What do you really want with this post?


9 posted on 12/14/2012 8:59:26 AM PST by svcw (Why is one cell on another planet considered life, and in the womb it is not.)
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To: Salvation
The Council of Nicea created the 'mystery' of the tree person Trinity in response to Arius. This is from whole cloth and is not Scriptural. A person cannot think three and say one.

We pray to the Lord alone, not to the Father in the name of the Son for the Holy Spirit to come to us -- that's crazy talk.

10 posted on 12/14/2012 9:09:35 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith
Swedenborgianism is a wolf in sheep's clothing... SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES (John 5:39)

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves ... For such are FALSE apostles, DECEITFUL workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.” (Matthew 7:15; 2nd Corinthians 11:13).

 
- Warning -
 
This thread has been flagged as

Cultic Swedenborgianism Spam

by Christians on FreeRepublic.com
 
Let the reader beware!


11 posted on 12/14/2012 9:27:58 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international. Gone.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Why don’t you address the question in the OP rather than post your stalking ‘spam’?


12 posted on 12/14/2012 9:33:15 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

“Why don’t you address the question in the OP rather than post your stalking ‘spam’?”

You assume I have a question for you. I do not. You are in a cult. I am posting to warn others, who may not realize what you are doing.

You post heresies here to cast aspersions on Christianity.

As long as FR allows you to do so, I will point out you are posting a heresy to warn others that you are not posting Biblical truth.

Carry on with the cult stuff.


13 posted on 12/14/2012 9:41:21 AM PST by aMorePerfectUnion (Gone rogue, gone Galt, gone international. Gone.)
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To: DaveMSmith
I believe God is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ.

IF this is what you believe, why do you say the Holy Spirit is a separate entity?

14 posted on 12/14/2012 9:49:20 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: Just mythoughts

I did’t say that. The Holy Spirit (breath) is the Divine Proceeding (action) of the Lord. Jehovah is Jesus’ Father through His Proceeding of the Holy Spirit.


15 posted on 12/14/2012 9:54:53 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: winkadink
The Holy Spirit is whose Spirit? God’s?

The Holy Spirit is "sent" by the Father and Son, as he also "proceeds" from them. For this reason he is called "the Spirit of the Father" (e.g., Mt. 10:20; 1 Cor 2:11; also Jn 15:26), but also "the Spirit of the Son" (Gal 4:6), or "the Spirit of Jesus" (Acts 16:7), since it is Jesus himself that sends him (cf. Jn 15:26). Therefore the Latin Church professes that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son (qui a Patre Filioque procedit) while the Orthodox Churches profess from the Father through the Son. He proceeds "by way of will," "in the manner of love" (per modum amoris).
Pope John Paul II
Thanks for your reply...
16 posted on 12/14/2012 10:00:08 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: DaveMSmith
I did’t say that. The Holy Spirit (breath) is the Divine Proceeding (action) of the Lord. Jehovah is Jesus’ Father through His Proceeding of the Holy Spirit.

Did you know that the words 'breath of life' as used in Genesis 2 mean 'soul'? Now of course each soul has a spirit intellect... meaning it is not a flesh physical gray matter called in flesh a brain? So who else separates their intellect from their body? Why then the need to make the Holy Spirit a separate entity from the Heavenly Father.... Christ was foretold in Isaiah to be called Emmanuel.... which means God with us. Hebrews 2:14 tells why.

17 posted on 12/14/2012 10:07:09 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: RedMDer
You need to read this.

Why didn't you go to I John 5:1-11 and in particular verses 7 and 8 ?
Reconsider your ways.
18 posted on 12/14/2012 10:14:48 AM PST by Yosemitest (It's Simple ! Fight, ... or Die !)
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To: DaveMSmith

Dave, this battle over the Trinity has been going on for over 1700 years so it wont be settled here on this forum. Most here are fixed in their beliefs and are not open to considering anything else contrary to what they have been taught. Time will tell who was right or wrong. Brave post though.
Merry Christmas.

Seek and yea shall find.....

http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/articles/jesus-christ/one-god-one-lord-reconsidering-the-cornerstone-of-the-christian-faith


19 posted on 12/14/2012 10:18:47 AM PST by Doulos1 (Bitter Clinger Forever!)
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To: DaveMSmith
just logic(sic)

Correction: just pretzel logic

"Jesus saith to him: Have I been so long a time with you; and have you not known me? Philip, he that seeth Me seeth the Father also. How sayest thou, Shew us the Father? Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you, I speak not of myself. But the Father who abideth in Me, He doth the works. Believe you not that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" John 14:9-11

Two additional passages you should slowly, carefully and repeatedly ponder.

"Understanding this first, that no prophecy of scripture is made by private interpretation. For prophecy came not by the will of man at any time: but the holy men of God spoke, inspired by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:20-21

"And account the longsuffering of our Lord, salvation; as also our most dear brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, hath written to you: As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction." 2 Peter 3:15-16

20 posted on 12/14/2012 10:29:39 AM PST by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro can't pass E-verify)
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To: DaveMSmith
I believe God is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, and He is the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ.

This is a bit different formulation, but I don't see how it removes your objections, one/trinity - three/one wise.

With a little change, it's pretty close to Orthodox Christian belief:

"I believe the Godhead is one, in whom is the Divine Trinity, comprised of God the Father, the Lord God the Savior Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

21 posted on 12/14/2012 10:37:53 AM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: DaveMSmith

Read this book before discussing the Trinity further:

http://tinyurl.com/mindofthemaker


22 posted on 12/14/2012 10:45:16 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a baby girl's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: DaveMSmith

It’s odd that those who reject what ecumenical councils of the Church have defined concerning the Trinity do so on the supposed basis of Scripture, which we know to be the inspired, inerrant word of God only because ecumenical councils have defined it as such.


23 posted on 12/14/2012 10:58:15 AM PST by Arthur McGowan (If you're FOR sticking scissors in a baby girl's neck and sucking out her brains, you are PRO-WOMAN!)
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To: DaveMSmith; Lee N. Field

i blame Constantine.


24 posted on 12/14/2012 5:39:42 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
i blame Constantine.

Constantine the Evil, who as Pope forced the doctrine of the Trinity on the pure worship of Ebionite Yahshua-anity, moved the day of worship to Sunday, purged the bible of the gospels of Peter, Paul and Mary, etc., et wacky cetera.

That Constantine?

25 posted on 12/14/2012 5:53:49 PM PST by Lee N. Field ("You keep using that verse, but I do not think it means what you think it means." --I. Montoya)
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To: Lee N. Field

That Constantine?

the one and only!!


26 posted on 12/14/2012 8:10:22 PM PST by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: DaveMSmith

I don,t know if the three would be considered persons or not, but if God is the father and Jesus is the son, that makes two in any kind of math, they have the same mind so that makes them one.

Jesus was already gone on the day of Pentecost so the Holy spirit is the third member of the God head, God the father, Jesus the son, and the holy spirit, and these three are one.

But if there were not three why would it say these three are one?


27 posted on 12/15/2012 10:19:38 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I believe Jesus also calls them hirelings, ( paid preachers )


28 posted on 12/15/2012 10:27:28 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: Arthur McGowan

Read this book before discussing the Trinity further:


Yeah, what does the people who wrote the Bible know any way?


29 posted on 12/15/2012 10:31:22 AM PST by ravenwolf
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To: DaveMSmith
Now, if the Holy Spirit were a person, would this Scripture not indicate He is Jesus' Father, not Jehovah?

That's a wrong definition of the term person in context of the Trinity -- this is persona -- of one substance yet separate.

30 posted on 12/16/2012 11:57:58 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Lee N. Field; XeniaSt

ha ha — say, note that xeniaST, and all the rest of the “Pope constantine” crowd have been quiet for the past month. Do you think they’re on some plateau chanting mantras and waiting for 21.Dec for the mothership to come and take them away?


31 posted on 12/17/2012 12:05:25 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: RedMDer; DaveMSmith
The doctrine of the Trinity is encapsulated in Matthew 28:19, where Jesus instructs the apostles: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Matthew 28:19 KJV

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]

From Proof of the Gospel (the Demonstratio) by Eusebius.

Eusebius (265-339 CE) Bishop of Caesarea around 314 CE

Book III, Chapter 7, 136 (a-d), p. 157

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

also
(2) Book III, Chapter 6, 132 (a), p. 152
(3) Book III, Chapter 7, 138 (c), p. 159
(4) Book IX, Chapter 11, 445 (c), p. 175
(5) Book I, Chapter 3, 6 (a), p. 20
(6) Book I, Chapter 5, 9 (a), p. 24

In ~311 CE Eusebius (265-339) Bishop of Caesarea
In his _Proof of the Gospels_
in Book three chapter seven states

Go, and make disciples of all the nations in My Name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you,” [[Matt. xxviii. 19.]]
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/eusebius_de_05_book3.htm

Apparently Matthew 28:19 was changed
after Eusebius wrote his Proof of the Gospel.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
32 posted on 12/17/2012 10:28:06 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your teaching is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
That it is the Lord only who is meant by the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19 is evident from what there precedes and what follows. In the preceding verse the Lord says, "All power is given unto Me in heaven and on earth," and in the following verse He says, "Lo, I am with you all the days, even to the consummation of the age;" thus He speaks of Himself only, so that He spoke in that manner [about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit] to make His disciples aware that there is a trinity in Him. Doctrine of the Lord 46:6 ~ Swedenborg
33 posted on 12/17/2012 5:18:25 PM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Cronos

How about the Athanasian Creed?


34 posted on 12/17/2012 5:28:36 PM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Cronos

And I did a search of ‘persona’ in the Latin Vulgate Bible - that word does not appear in Matt 28:19 or in any Trinity related Scripture.


35 posted on 12/17/2012 6:32:04 PM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Cronos

O WISDOM
December 17

Symbols: All-Seeing Eye and the Lamp

Come, and teach us the way of prudence.

O Wisdom, who came from the mouth of the Most High, reaching from end to end and ordering all things mightily and sweetly, Come, and teach us the way of prudence.

O Sapientia, quae ex ore Altissimi prodiisti, attingens a fine usque ad finem fortiter, suaviterque disponens omnia: veni ad docendum nos viam prudentiae.

The "all-seeing eye" represents the all-knowing and ever-present God. During the late Renaissance, the eye was pictured in a triangle with rays of light to represent the infinite holiness of the Trinity. The lamp is a symbol of wisdom taken from the parable of the wise and foolish virgins in Matthew 25.

Recommended Readings: Proverbs 8:1-12


36 posted on 12/17/2012 7:25:17 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: DaveMSmith

Neither does the word Swedenborg, however the fact that a word does not exist in the Bible does not mean the concept is not there — and the Bible clearly shows at Jesus’ baptism that there is a separate Father, Son and Holy Spirit, yet we know that each is God and that God is one. Ergo the Trinity exists, and the Swedenborgian concept is incorrect


37 posted on 12/17/2012 11:28:01 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DaveMSmith; boatbums; Natural Law; daniel1212
The Athanasian creed in Latin:

  1. Quicunque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
  2. Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
  3. Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
  4. Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
  5. Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
  6. Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
  7. Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  8. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  9. Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  10. Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  11. Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
  12. Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
  13. Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  14. Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
  15. Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  16. Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
  17. Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  18. Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus [est] Dominus.
  19. Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compelimur:
  20. Ita tres Deos aut [tres] Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
  21. Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
  22. Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
  23. Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
  24. Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
  25. Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus:
  26. Sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
  27. Ita, ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
  28. Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.

  29. Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
  30. Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus [pariter] et homo est.
  31. Deus [est] ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
  32. Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
  33. Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
  34. Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
  35. Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
  36. Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
  37. Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
  38. Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
  39. Ascendit ad [in] caelos, sedet ad dexteram [Dei] Patris [omnipotentis].
  40. Inde venturus [est] judicare vivos et mortuos.
  41. Ad cujus adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis;
  42. Et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
  43. Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
  44. Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.

The problem is that the English language is limited -- and incorrectly translates the latin term "persona" as just person wherein we think of an utterly separate individual not sharing a substance with another, not even with a twin

The fact that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are distinct is seen in John 14:12,28 and John 16:10 and in John 14:16-17

38 posted on 12/17/2012 11:35:16 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DaveMSmith; boatbums; Natural Law
The Athanasian creed in Latin:

  1. Quicunque vult salvus esse, ante omnia opus est, ut teneat catholicam fidem:
  2. Quam nisi quisque integram inviolatamque servaverit, absque dubio in aeternam peribit.
  3. Fides autem catholica haec est: ut unum Deum in Trinitate, et Trinitatem in unitate veneremur.
  4. Neque confundentes personas, neque substantiam seperantes.
  5. Alia est enim persona Patris alia Filii, alia Spiritus Sancti:
  6. Sed Patris, et Fili, et Spiritus Sancti una est divinitas, aequalis gloria, coeterna maiestas.
  7. Qualis Pater, talis Filius, talis [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  8. Increatus Pater, increatus Filius, increatus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  9. Immensus Pater, immensus Filius, immensus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  10. Aeternus Pater, aeternus Filius, aeternus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  11. Et tamen non tres aeterni, sed unus aeternus.
  12. Sicut non tres increati, nec tres immensi, sed unus increatus, et unus immensus.
  13. Similiter omnipotens Pater, omnipotens Filius, omnipotens [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  14. Et tamen non tres omnipotentes, sed unus omnipotens.
  15. Ita Deus Pater, Deus Filius, Deus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  16. Et tamen non tres dii, sed unus est Deus.
  17. Ita Dominus Pater, Dominus Filius, Dominus [et] Spiritus Sanctus.
  18. Et tamen non tres Domini, sed unus [est] Dominus.
  19. Quia, sicut singillatim unamquamque personam Deum ac Dominum confiteri christiana veritate compelimur:
  20. Ita tres Deos aut [tres] Dominos dicere catholica religione prohibemur.
  21. Pater a nullo est factus: nec creatus, nec genitus.
  22. Filius a Patre solo est: non factus, nec creatus, sed genitus.
  23. Spiritus Sanctus a Patre et Filio: non factus, nec creatus, nec genitus, sed procedens.
  24. Unus ergo Pater, non tres Patres: unus Filius, non tres Filii: unus Spiritus Sanctus, non tres Spiritus Sancti.
  25. Et in hac Trinitate nihil prius aut posterius, nihil maius aut minus:
  26. Sed totae tres personae coaeternae sibi sunt et coaequales.
  27. Ita, ut per omnia, sicut iam supra dictum est, et unitas in Trinitate, et Trinitas in unitate veneranda sit.
  28. Qui vult ergo salvus esse, ita de Trinitate sentiat.

  29. Sed necessarium est ad aeternam salutem, ut incarnationem quoque Domini nostri Iesu Christi fideliter credat.
  30. Est ergo fides recta ut credamus et confiteamur, quia Dominus noster Iesus Christus, Dei Filius, Deus [pariter] et homo est.
  31. Deus [est] ex substantia Patris ante saecula genitus: et homo est ex substantia matris in saeculo natus.
  32. Perfectus Deus, perfectus homo: ex anima rationali et humana carne subsistens.
  33. Aequalis Patri secundum divinitatem: minor Patre secundum humanitatem.
  34. Qui licet Deus sit et homo, non duo tamen, sed unus est Christus.
  35. Unus autem non conversione divinitatis in carnem, sed assumptione humanitatis in Deum.
  36. Unus omnino, non confusione substantiae, sed unitate personae.
  37. Nam sicut anima rationalis et caro unus est homo: ita Deus et homo unus est Christus.
  38. Qui passus est pro salute nostra: descendit ad inferos: tertia die resurrexit a mortuis.
  39. Ascendit ad [in] caelos, sedet ad dexteram [Dei] Patris [omnipotentis].
  40. Inde venturus [est] judicare vivos et mortuos.
  41. Ad cujus adventum omnes homines resurgere habent cum corporibus suis;
  42. Et reddituri sunt de factis propriis rationem.
  43. Et qui bona egerunt, ibunt in vitam aeternam: qui vero mala, in ignem aeternum.
  44. Haec est fides catholica, quam nisi quisque fideliter firmiterque crediderit, salvus esse non poterit.

The problem is that the English language is limited -- and incorrectly translates the latin term "persona" as just person wherein we think of an utterly separate individual not sharing a substance with another, not even with a twin

The fact that the Father and Son and Holy Spirit are distinct is seen in John 14:12,28 and John 16:10 and in John 14:16-17

39 posted on 12/17/2012 11:35:40 PM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
I've looked at Latin dictionaries online and the definition of persona doesn't seem to exist (they refer to actor, mask) - since Latin is a dead language, this seems odd.

Blaming English common usage for a non-existent definition?

40 posted on 12/18/2012 3:03:27 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Cronos

Swedenborg wrote all of his theological works in Latin yet was unfamiliar with your definition, apparently.


41 posted on 12/18/2012 3:11:38 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith

Nope, I’m giving you a fact.


42 posted on 12/18/2012 4:07:02 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DaveMSmith

Yes, he was mistaken and it’s not my definition, but the correct definition


43 posted on 12/18/2012 4:15:41 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DaveMSmith; boatbums
you and Swedenborgian's formula of denying the trinity fails when it comes to John 15:26 “But when the Comforter is come whom I will send unto you from the Father, He shall testify of me.”

Unless these are 3 distinct there can be no sending etc. -- so as Jesus Christ IS God and the Holy Spirit IS God

The Holy Trinity

44 posted on 12/18/2012 4:25:39 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
Ok, can you cite an on-line reference for your definition of persona? I can't seem to find anything.

You see, the very word doesn't exist in Scripture and neither does your definition seem to exist, so myriads of people are being deceived...

45 posted on 12/18/2012 5:08:31 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: Cronos
"[...}Hence it is that the "Holy Spirit" is the holy which proceeds from the Lord; for the Spirit itself does not proceed, but the holy which the Spirit speaks, as everyone can understand who considers the matter. That the Holy Spirit, which is also called the "Paraclete," is the Divine truth proceeding from the Lord's Divine Human, and that the holy is predicated of the Divine truth, is evident from the Lord's words in John: I will ask the Father that He shall give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him. The Paraclete, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and shall remind you of all things which I have said unto you (John 14:16-17, 26). When the Paraclete is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, who goeth out from the Father, He shall testify of Me (John 15:26). When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He shall lead you into all truth; He shall not speak from Himself, but what things soever He shall hear, He shall speak. He shall glorify Me; for He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you. All things whatsoever the Father hath are Mine; therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you (John 16:13-15). If these passages are collated with many others, it can be understood that the Holy Spirit is the holy which proceeds from the Lord's Divine Human; for the Lord says, "Whom the Father shall send in My name;" also, "Whom I will send unto you from the Father;" and further, "He shall take of Mine and declare it unto you; all things that the Father hath are Mine, therefore said I, that He shall take of Mine, and shall declare it unto you." It is also evident that the holy is predicated of truth, for the Paraclete is called the "Spirit of truth." ~ Secrets of Heaven 6788

Some of my faith have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete (he never says that of himself).

46 posted on 12/18/2012 5:19:52 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith; boatbums; XeniaSt; RnMomof7; metmom; Alex Murphy; roamer_1; daniel1212
Some of my faith have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete (he never says that of himself).

Ok, that would make sense to them in their interpretation. Each has his own new interpretation since the 1500s...

47 posted on 12/18/2012 5:58:47 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: Cronos
Well, we do have the Word now, thanks to the Reformation and do have the spiritual freedom to read it and understand it with sound Doctrine. No one is asking anyone to believe anything in my faith -- you'll have to draw your own conclusions. We don't have mysteries - everything is clearly laid out and we don't expect anyone to believe what they don't understand.

For myself, I really didn't think arguing the Trinity was worth it until I realized that you really can't get to heaven believing God is three. The Lord's prayer doesn't teach us to pray this way...why? so the heretic Arius could be appeased?

48 posted on 12/18/2012 6:23:42 AM PST by DaveMSmith (Evil Comes from Falsity, So Share the Truth)
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To: DaveMSmith; boatbums; XeniaSt; RnMomof7; metmom; Alex Murphy; roamer_1; daniel1212; Natural Law; ...
DaveMSmith :Well, we do have the Word now, thanks to the Reformation and do have the spiritual freedom to read it and understand it with sound Doctrine

Yes, that's why folks like you would reject the Trinity and as you said have come to the conclusion that Swedenborg was the Paraclete

Lots of new interpretations each day

49 posted on 12/18/2012 6:38:04 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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To: DaveMSmith

As you pointed out, the Mormons shot out from Swedenborgians, right?


50 posted on 12/18/2012 6:43:28 AM PST by Cronos (**Marriage is about commitment, cohabitation is about convenience.**)
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