Posted on 12/16/2012 3:24:55 PM PST by NYer
My grandmother recently died. She was a Lutheran, but we, her descendents, are Catholic. Who, then, should do the burial? A Lutheran minister, or our Catholic priest? Thank you, and please pray for her soul.
Canon 1183.3 states,
“In the prudent judgment of the local ordinary, ecclesiastical funerals can be granted to baptized persons who are enrolled in a non-Catholic Church or ecclesial community unless their intention is evidently to the contrary and provided that their own minister is not available.”
In this situation, it seems the grandmother’s minister is available.
Since grandma did not convert prior to her death, it seems imprudent to go against her wishes and deny her a funeral in the ecclesiastical community of which she was a member.
Turning the sock inside out for a moment, we often hear of tragic cases in which a good Catholic person dies, but because the children are no longer practicing, she is denied the benefits of a funeral. Yes, funerals benefit the dead! The poor dead person might be given a prayer service at the funeral home or buried without ceremony.
In former ages, respecting the last wishes of the deceased was something that was sacrosanct.
So, unless the Lutheran minister is not available, inquire of the pastor about having the funeral at grandmother’s church. Go, pray for her (do not receive communion at the Lutheran funeral, even if invited), bury her.
Masses can be offered for the deceased, even those who are not Catholic. You can later have a Mass or Masses offered for her, even a Requiem Mass if your pastor is available and amenable.
Everyone, pray for the dead. Do not forget to pray for the dead.
She’s with Jesus. Funerals are an aid to the living.
Well, hello again, Vladimir.
Truth be told, I knew about 2 Maccabees. I also knew it was the only place that Catholics could turn to for support.
The fact that in the Old Testament canon, as recognized by the Old Testament church, i.e. the Hebrew Bible, and in the New Testament, there is nothing about burial rites seems not to have left any impression on some. To me - and to many, many, many others it leaves quite an impression. Silence has no echo. I cannot hear what has not been said. To put it more plainly, where God has chosen to be silent, I do not see where it is our prerogative to do differently. God, I am sure, knows what He has said and not said.
Other doctrines are found throughout the Testaments and, usually, in several different places, New Testament doctrines often prefigured or foreshadowed in the Old. This is one that has no support elsewhere. Therefore I find it hard to believe that this is in any way important, since it is not so echoed throughout the Scriptures. I also know that, psychologically/emotionally, this is a useful thing to pull out of one’s pocket in a time of grief when the grieving parties have little or no evidence of faith on the part of the departed. But in that case, what is the purpose of the doctrine, to console on the basis of sure and certain knowledge or console on the basis of wishful thinking and convenience?
If you are looking to turn this into the debate about the deutero-canonical books, I am not particularly interested to participate.
Yup.
You wrote:
“... there is nothing about burial rites seems not to have left any impression on some.”
It’s not about ‘burial rites’. It’s about prayers for the dead.
“This is one that has no support elsewhere.”
Not so fast there, Sparky: http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/Onesiphorus.pdf
“If you are looking to turn this into the debate about the deutero-canonical books, I am not particularly interested to participate.”
I’m not so interested either. You wouldn’t stand a chance any way.
One more thing. You wrote: “Other doctrines are found throughout the Testaments and, usually, in several different places, New Testament doctrines often prefigured or foreshadowed in the Old.”
When you can show me an inspired Table of Contents, I might take that comment seriously.
My mother had her service all planed out and let the ministers know exactly what she wanted.
It was a wonderful gift to us that we didn’t have to worry about that.
“Not so fast there, Sparky: http://www.catholic-convert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/Onesiphorus.pdf.";
Supposition. Hardly a foundation for doctrine.
The rest of what you write I will leave to stand on the basis of its own merits.
p.s. Sparky, huh? And you? Snarky.
That would be my take if she she went to church as a lutheran and there was some relationship there. If not then I am not sure. We don’t have enough info.
Catholic priests here only do funerals for baptized Catholics.
Bravo Father Z! Excellent answer!
According to canon 1193 Paragraph 3 they may provide one for any baptized person, if their own clergy is not available.
You were wrong on two counts: 1) what it is about (prayers for the dea) - which means you didn’t even properly understand the point but saw fit to prattle on against it anyway (typical), and 2) there is Biblical evidence which you apparently didn’t even know about and are apparently incapable to refute.
Except that it isn't, because 2 Macc merely documents what is Jewish practice down to the present day. It is also the common practice of all of the Orthodox Christian churches down to this day. Only Protestants are the odd men out.
Oh, and you ought to take a look at a translation of the traditional Requiem Mass. "Comforting the survivors" isn't a very good description. The executive summary is more like, "Pray for this person, that his sins may be forgiven and he may be released from purgatory and attain heavenly glory ... and y'all out there: repent, your day is coming too, sooner than you think."
That may well be what it says but it isn’t what our churches do here.
That is because they have lost touch with the original Catholic practice. Praying for the dead is scriptural. More than that, it is endorsed in Sacred Tradition. Jews pray for their dead, and always have as far as we can tell. It's the Lutherans and other protestants who're inventing traditions of men.
Yes, the lady should have a Lutheran funeral, if that is how she practiced her faith. Her Catholic relatives can and should arrange to have masses celebrated in her behalf.
That’s the common cliché. Like most such, it’s wrong. The funeral can bring consolation and closure to the living, but its chief purpose to commend the soul of the departed to God.
how you treat my body will have no bearing on my salvation.
It’s a Gnostic fiction that the bodies of the dead are of no account or importance – that they can be disposed of with little or no thought to dignified ceremony. The truth is that the body is intimately connected with our humanity and personhood. We’re not fully ourselves without our bodies, and it’s for this reason that they’ll be reunited with our souls when we appear before Christ at the General Judgment.
The body is not trash, to be disposed of as a thing of no lasting importance.
As a matter of fact He does, just as Scripture teaches.
A specious, at best, argument made by those familiar only with the abridged and heavily edited word of God.
Correction: BTW, contemporary Lutherans do not pray for the dead.
Christ has saved them.
Assumes facts not in evidence and a belief that is contradicted by Scripture.
No prayers are needed!
Again a belief contradicted by Scripture.
Yep, that’s her home church and family she worshiped with.
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