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Ireland to Legalise Abortion
The Daily Telegraph (UK) ^ | Bruno Waterfield

Posted on 12/19/2012 6:48:59 AM PST by marshmallow

Ireland is to legalise abortions when the mother's life is at risk, including when she is suicidal, in an historic move expected to spark a major battle with the Roman Catholic church.

Ireland’s cabinet took the decision on Tuesday following a huge public outcry over the death of Savita Halappanavar, a pregnant woman in October who died after her repeated requests for an abortion were refused while she was suffering a miscarriage.

The Irish government has decided to repeal legislation that makes abortion a criminal act and to introduce regulations setting out when doctors can perform an abortion when a woman’s life is regarded as being at risk, including by suicide.

Dr James Reilly, the Irish health minister, said that the government was aware of the controversy surrounding abortion.

"I know that most people have personal views on this matter. However, the government is committed to ensuring that the safety of pregnant women in Ireland is maintained and strengthened. We must fulfil our duty of care towards them," he said.

"For that purpose, we will clarify in legislation and regulation what is available by way of treatment to a woman when a pregnancy gives rise to a threat to a woman's life. We will also clarify what is legal for the professionals who must provide that care while at all times taking full account of the equal right to life of the unborn child."

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Catholic; Moral Issues; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 12/19/2012 6:49:03 AM PST by marshmallow
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To: marshmallow
move expected to spark a major battle with the Roman Catholic church.

The Catholic Church will lose that battle just like they've lost it here in the US. The West is falling away from religion and becoming more secular.

2 posted on 12/19/2012 6:57:44 AM PST by Longbow1969
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To: marshmallow

The first step on the road to hell.


3 posted on 12/19/2012 6:58:13 AM PST by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: marshmallow

Abortion will be legal until it is outlawed under Sharia.


4 posted on 12/19/2012 7:01:20 AM PST by reg45 (Barack 0bama: Implementing class warfare by having no class.)
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To: reg45
Abortion will be legal until it is outlawed under Sharia.

BINGO! you win a cigar!

5 posted on 12/19/2012 7:03:14 AM PST by Vaquero (Don't pick a fight with an old guy. If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you.)
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To: marshmallow

I have an extended family member who married into a family of Irish expats. After visits back to Ireland they always remark on how the whole moral and cultural atmosphere of the place has been going “straight down the loo” since they became part of the E.U.


6 posted on 12/19/2012 7:05:39 AM PST by Buckeye McFrog
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To: marshmallow
Well, Ireland (once an RCC stalwart) becoming more socially secular will at least accelerate the apparently destined unification with Leftist Ulster—under British imperial rule of course.

Over ten centuries of genocide and dispossession at the hands of evil heretics will all be finally forgiven...

...just great.

7 posted on 12/19/2012 7:19:26 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: marshmallow

Here is the truth about the Savita case. Pro abort advocates twisted what happened to suit their ends. This is a common Liberal tactic.

http://www.savitatruth.com/

Please note these 2 very important facts that contradict the claims of the pro abort crowd.

“3 | Existing Irish medical guidelines are clear that intervention may be necessary in cases like Dr. Savita’s.

Medical guidelines currently in place clearly state that intervention, including termination of pregnancy, may be proper in exceptional cases like Dr. Savita’s:

“In current obstetrical practice, rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention (including termination of a pregnancy) is required at a stage when, due to extreme immaturity of the baby, there may be little or no hope of the baby surviving. In these exceptional circumstances, it may be necessary to intervene to terminate the pregnancy to protect the life of the mother, while making every effort to preserve the life of the baby.”

Source: Medical Council Guide for Registered Medical Practitioners, Section 21.4
4 | There is no evidence of an ethos among the doctors that treated Dr. Savita, or those anywhere in Ireland, that would have prevented her life from being saved.

Irish law and medical guidelines allow for life-saving treatment for the mother in cases like Dr. Savita’s, but Irish doctors in this case and generally also recognize this principle.

Dr. Sam Coulter-Smith, master of the Rotunda Hospital in Dublin said:

“I think most of us who work in obstetrics and gynaecology, there may be individual differences, but the majority would be of the view that if the health is such a risk that there is a risk of death and we are dealing with a foetus that is not viable, there is only one answer to that question, we bring the pregnancy to an end.”

There was also nothing against Catholic teaching to prevent saving Savita’s life. Though the news keeps referring to the treatment as a “termination” it was not a termination. The mother was already in labor, it had already been determined that the fetus had no chance of survival and she had a life threatening condition. Drugs to hasten labor at this point would not have gone against Catholic teaching that allows for treatment to save the life even if it results in the death of a fetus. The fetus was already dying. The doctor erred. Not the Church and not Irish law or medical ethics.


8 posted on 12/19/2012 7:33:38 AM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: Happy Rain

Oh come on, that’s just sheer bigotry. You can’t judge all Irish Catholics by the standards of the 80% who can’t speak for themselves because they have their tongues wedged firmly up their priest’s butt. Only a bare absolute majority supported State theft of farms and the ethnic cleansing of undesirable anglo-Irish loyalists, and only most of them agreed with backing Hitler in WW2.


9 posted on 12/19/2012 7:42:59 AM PST by Vanders9
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To: marshmallow

Here is a discussion of a case very similar to Sativa’s

http://ldysinger.stjohnsem.edu/ThM_599d_Beg/11a_alt-per_hosp/00a_start.htm

The case is down the page a bit and is titled “TRANSFER of a PATIENT REQUESTING INDUCTION of LABOR at EIGHTEEN WEEK”

The big difference in the two cases is that the woman was pregnant with twins and only one of the twins had already descended into the cervix. This meant that the dying twin could not be delivered without the other twin being delivered which would cause that twin’s death. The request was refused and the patient was transferred. From the discussion,

“1) The twin that had descended into the cervix was dying, and no medical treatment could prevent this infant’s death.”

“3) It was not medically possible to deliver only the dying twin without also delivering the second twin, as well: thus inducing labor would necessarily result in the death of both twins.”

The pro abortion crowd do not care about facts they are determined that killing pre born babies is considered a right above all other rights. If they were honest they would press for the rights of parents to kill infants up to a certain age and with certain disabilities.


10 posted on 12/19/2012 7:47:43 AM PST by lastchance ("Nisi credideritis, non intelligetis" St. Augustine)
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To: marshmallow

That’s amazing. Until recently, divorce was illegal in Ireland.


11 posted on 12/19/2012 7:59:32 AM PST by Fiji Hill (Io Triumphe!)
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To: Vanders9
Not bigotry, experience.

My Dublin born paternal grandmother escaped the fascist occupation of the UK Prods, where many of our family perished from British enforced privation, to marry my grandfather in NYC.

Revisionism does not suit you—I admire Churchill but he was a typical Prod bigot when it came to “kerns” and “Piedmont Diggers.”

12 posted on 12/19/2012 8:00:30 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: Longbow1969
The Catholic Church will lose that battle just like they've lost it here in the US.

Is the Catholic Church alone in fighting that battle?

If so, why?

13 posted on 12/19/2012 8:04:07 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard
The RCC may not be the one true Christian Church but it is the most powerful and influential...it is not fighting alone but is the only one the MSM will notice

...thus it's rise or fall is very important to all of Christ's followers.

14 posted on 12/19/2012 8:13:22 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: marshmallow

American Catholics have always sentimentalized Ireland to a ridiculous degree. Ever since the “flight of the wild geese” left Ireland without its indigenous upper classes Irish nationalism has been very left wing. Since Wolfe Tone there has been no traditional Catholic Irish nationalism except in American pubs.


15 posted on 12/19/2012 8:15:20 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Happy Rain
Over ten centuries of genocide and dispossession at the hands of evil heretics

They've only been heretics for the last five centuries. The first five they were good Catholics.

16 posted on 12/19/2012 8:17:46 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I stand corrected—in the beginning the foo foo Frenchy English just hated and butchered non English and after the Saxons and Welsh were decimated the Irish were just nearby and next.


17 posted on 12/19/2012 8:23:02 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: Happy Rain
but is the only one the MSM will notice

Therein lies part of our (Christians in general) problem ... Big Media is trying to divide and conquer. I know that the Catholic Church is not alone, because I have worked right-to-life issues with other Christians (primarily Baptists and stand-alone church evangelical protestants). It does nobody any good for those folks to be ignored.

18 posted on 12/19/2012 8:34:34 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Happy Rain; wideawake; x
I stand corrected—in the beginning the foo foo Frenchy English just hated and butchered non English and after the Saxons and Welsh were decimated the Irish were just nearby and next.

The Saxons were the Original English. The Normans were originally Norse-French invaders. It took centuries for the two groups to meld into a single nationality.

The Norman conquest of Ireland had the blessing of the Pope. Read a little history.

Perhaps you don't realize how much like current Third World Marxism this Celtic "we've been oppressed!" line sounds like. Celtic nationalism has been consistently left wing for a very long time now (probably longest in Ireland, but in the rest of the Celtic fringe as well). Sorry, but a conservative forum is the wrong place for sympathizers of left wing nationalism to spew crypto-Marxist verbiage. It isn't going to be received well.

No one picks their ancestors . . . no one. I didn't choose to be of English descent any more than I chose to be white or American or rural or Southern, but I'm not going to smile at you or anyone else for putting those groups down. How would you like it if someone tried to make you ashamed of your ancestors?

I am not a chrstian. Please take your Catholic vs. Protestant argument elsewhere.

19 posted on 12/19/2012 8:35:37 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
American Catholics have always sentimentalized Ireland to a ridiculous degree.

Correction: SOME American Catholics have always sentimentalized Ireland to a ridiculous degree.

And some have not. Some of us, in fact, are bloody tired of it. From my perspective, it seems to be primarily northeast urban Catholics doing the Irish Sentimentalization ... and Hollywierd picking up on and amplifying it.

20 posted on 12/19/2012 8:40:33 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
Your anglophile sophistry doesn't fly brother.

Ireland suffered badly at the hands of the Brit Papists,the Cromwell Puritans and the Prod Limeys for a thousand years.

YOU read a little history—and if you want to debate all the “wonderful” things the popes supported, well that's another whole new encyclopedia of historical atrocities we can pursue.

This is an Irish thread so take your pathetic English paralogisms elsewhere.

21 posted on 12/19/2012 8:45:37 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: Happy Rain
I meant English papists
22 posted on 12/19/2012 8:47:30 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: ArrogantBustard
Is the Catholic Church alone in fighting that battle?

If so, why?

The first problem with the Catholic church and Catholics in general is they can't seem to identify who their adversaries are. Half of them are supporting and voting for the very people and party's that are undermining Catholicism in the West.

You've got the silly situation of Catholic leaders supporting leftist party's and politicians, and then wondering why Christians are losing the debate over abortion, gay marriage, etc.

A good first step would be for the Catholic church and the faithful to STOP supporting liberals, leftists, socialists, etc. It's as if they can't figure out that the left are secular socialists and will always do everything possible to undermine the Christian church.

23 posted on 12/19/2012 9:34:13 AM PST by Longbow1969
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To: Happy Rain; Zionist Conspirator
I am an American born and bred, but I am Irish enough by blood to qualify in three different ways for an Irish passport.

HR, this Irish nationalist nonsense is quite tired and is rooted in sloppy leftist thinking.

The leading lights of the Irish nationalist movement have consistently been left-wing Irish citizens of English extraction and Protestant religion.

Theobald Wolfe Tone, Robert Emmett, Charles Parnell, Patrick Pearse, Thomas Osborne Davis, Robert Erskine Childers, the list goes on and on.

Irish nationalism is largely an English invention.

Ireland suffered badly

They seem OK now.

And they probably are doing well precisely because when the Irish were given a choice between being grown ups or embracing grievance/victimology/terrorism the vast majority of the Irish chose to be grown ups.

Which is why Dublin is Dublin, and not the Gaza Strip or Bosnia.

This is an Irish thread

Actually, it's an American thread - on an American website - that happens to be discussing Irish politics and society.

your pathetic English paralogisms

I see no logical flaws, let alone Englishness, in ZC's posts.

24 posted on 12/19/2012 10:12:28 AM PST by wideawake
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To: marshmallow

St. Patrick’s best efforts were for nought. The snakes are back in Ireland.

And they will have their vengeance with the blood of millions of innocents. And one day, who knows, given the already low regard for human life there demonstrated so effectively in “the troubles,” maybe Ireland someday gets its very own Newtown.


25 posted on 12/19/2012 11:02:59 AM PST by DPMD
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To: wideawake
So you are a closet Orangeman—an Irish traitor and Catholic hater...explains your lame screed.

...bet you were jumping with joy on January 30, 1972.

26 posted on 12/20/2012 6:45:18 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: Happy Rain; wideawake
So you are a closet Orangeman—an Irish traitor and Catholic hater...explains your lame screed.

Wideawake is Catholic and a consistent defender of the Catholic Church on this forum. He also knows more about it than you do. And he can't be an Irish traitor because he's not an Irish citizen. Americans of Irish extraction are supposed to be Americans, not Irish (unless they are Irish citizens).

...bet you were jumping with joy on January 30, 1972.

Now that's just childish.

27 posted on 12/20/2012 8:03:49 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: Longbow1969
A good first step would be for the Catholic church and the faithful to STOP supporting liberals, leftists, socialists, etc.

First step would be to recognize that a solid majority of the truly faithful (those who actually practice the faith) already don't support leftists etc. Furthermore, a large minority even of the not-particularly faithful don't support leftists etc.

So ... it would seem that we need to:

1) Persuade the minority of the truly faithful who do support leftists that their political voting patterns are completely out of step with the faith they profess and practice. Catholic social teaching is strongly anti-socialist (blither from leftist bishops to the contrary notwithstanding). Specifically, in American politics, being Catholic may not require voting for Republicans but it certainly seems to me to forbid voting for democRats.

2) Challenge those who profess to be Catholic, but don't practice the faith, to put up or shut up. If you're going to claim to be Catholic, act like it.

28 posted on 12/20/2012 8:13:47 AM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator
He gave the impression of being a Catholic hating Prod, not me as if it's any of your business.

You claim to know more than you do as well.

Not buying it—my paternal grandmother was a refugee from Ulster/English fascism so peddle your limited knowledge elsewhere.

29 posted on 12/20/2012 8:17:29 AM PST by Happy Rain (Which fires first? The gun or the 2nd Amendment haters?)
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To: Happy Rain
Sounds like your grandmother's experience, but your bigotry. Have you considered that possibly "Prod Bigotry" might also be based on experience?
30 posted on 12/23/2012 7:43:42 PM PST by Vanders9
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