Posted on 12/26/2012 12:21:18 PM PST by HarleyD
What I think is interesting in Crabtree's analysis is the timeline and the predicament of Joseph. While perhaps there is some speculation into exactly when events took place, we know from scripture that
2) Joseph and Mary obviously arrived in Bethlehem when it was obvious that she was with child but they were not yet married.
3) But, more important, Joseph did not choose the best path that would have cleared his name. Instead, he was willing and obedient to God's calling.
Shame is not like judgement. Judgement flows from an individual in an official sense, while shame is a general sense of reproach and can be formed corporately and amongst a group.
You should not blame the Roman and Jewish authorities for the treatment of our Lord. He did not. He forgave them. Do you realize that what they did, they fulfilled scripture, and that without it, mankind would be lost? Also, Jesus died for OUR sins. It was, in effect the entirety of mankind that crucified Jesus. His blood is on all our hands, just as the guilt of Adams’s sin is on us as well.
Is it possible to get some clarification as to what was wrong with my comment #9 on this thread? Pulling the comment may be legitimate, but unless I know what was wrong with it I am likely to make the same mistake again.
No reason was logged and I did not see anything wrong with the post, so I restored it.
Thanks
I’m so tempted to post today’s xkcd.com but I won’t.
Yes, an excellent article. It explains salvation very well.
True. This is why the article preaches a false gospel. The Cross was not about shame, it was all Judgment.
You should not blame the Roman and Jewish authorities for the treatment of our Lord. He did not. He forgave them.
This is a subtle introduction of a false accusation. Blame has not been entered into the discussion in post #19.
Identification of sin is requisite before forgiveness. Our Lord, Christ Jesus, recognized sin when manifest to Him. He then identified that to God the Father, when He requested the Father forgive that sin. Until the work of the Cross was finished, Judgment was performed by God the Father.
The work of the Cross was Judgment, not forgiveness. The judgment allows a righteous God to justly forgive.
This is a fundamental difference between Christianity and other religions and stressed in the Tabernacle rituals of worship. The Perfect Justice of God is also a major stumbling block to Islam.
A common stumbling block to those drawn to Christ is confusing emotion for salvation. The article promotes this confusion by preaching a false gospel of shame as the work of the Cross.
The term "shame" is defined in the Greek as "dishonor". It is used in several places:
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
From the article:
The entire blasphemous article.
Jesus Christ is not a sinner. Even the Scripture presented defeats the premise of the article.
Heb 12:2
(2) Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If the article were true, the Scripture would indicate Christ accepted the shame, but to the contrary He never accepted the shame, but patiently persevered through the ordeal, despising the shame. He was anything other than shamed by the ordeal, although many who do not believe think he was shamed in His thinking on the Cross.
His focus was upon His obedience to the Will of the Father and fulfillment of His Plan.
The judgment is forensic. Christ didn’t sin, nor did He become a sinner, but the sins of the world were imputed upon Him and the penalty of death executed as evidenced when Christ cried out, “Why have you forsaken me?”.
This strategic victory in the angelic conflict manifests the genius of God’s Plan. By remaining true to God the Father, God executed the penalty of sin for all mankind in one.
Where on earth does this author state Jesus is a sinner? Paul states that Christ did become sin for us:
2Co_5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
It is this sin that is shame before God. It is our shame that Christ bore.
The third paragraph of the article is a false gospel. It is not the Gospel Paul preached. It is closer to spiritual pornography.
Those who come to Christ through faith in Him, rejoice in the work of the Cross.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
He took OUR sins and nailed it to HIS cross. All our sins, shame, reproach was laid on Christ our Lord. This is the great and merciful sacrifice of God the Son. For without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin. And that includes all the baggage that goes along with it. This is what the early fathers believed and it's the gospel.
“And the Lamb of God not only did this, but was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He did not owe, but which we owed because of the multitude of our sins; and so He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins, because He received death for us, and transferred to Himself the scourging, the insults, and the dishonour (sic:shame), which were due to us, and drew down on Himself the apportioned curse, being made a curse for us. And what is that but the price of our souls? And so the oracle says in our person: “By his stripes we were healed,” and “The Lord delivered him for our sins,” with the result that uniting Himself to us and us to Himself, and appropriating our sufferings, He can say, “I said, Lord, have mercy on me, heal my soul, for I have sinned against thee.” - Eusebius of Caesarea, Demonstratio Evangelica, X.1
Chrysostom, Homily on Galatians 3:3 (ACD, vol. 3, p. 108)
The people were liable to punishment since they had not fulfilled the whole Law. Christ satisfied a different curse, the one that says, “Cursed is everyone that is hanged on a tree.” Both the one who is hanged and the one who transgresses the Law are accursed. Christ, who was going to lift that curse, could not properly be made liable to it, yet he had to receive a curse. He received the curse instead of being liable to it, and through this he lifted the curse. Just as, when someone is condemned to death, another innocent person who chooses to die for him releases him from that punishment, so Christ also did.
Augustine
“This, the catholic faith (sic: not to be confused with Catholic faith) has known of the one and only mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, who condescended to undergo death—that is, the penalty of sin—without sin, for us. As He alone became the Son of man, in order that we might become through Him sons of God, so He alone, on our behalf, undertook punishment without ill deservings, that we through Him might obtain grace without good deservings. Because as to us nothing good was due so to Him nothing bad was due. Therefore, commending His love to them to whom He was about to give undeserved life, He was willing to suffer for them an undeserved death.” (Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Book 4, chap. 7)
Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John 2:1 [ACD vol. 3 p. 12]
For he sends his own Son, who in his nature is changeless and unalterable and wholly unacquainted with sin, in our likeness, in order that, just as through the first disobedience we became liable to divine wrath, so through the second we might both escape the curse and do away with the ills that proceeded from it.
But it's apparent that we have differing views of what pornography is.
I applaud those who recognize He died for our sins.
Our Lord and Savior did not become a sinner, nor did he wallow in shame and guilt when He was on the Cross.
The article confuses the temptation of sinners before an angry God, who have a tendency to view God from the viewpoint of unrighteousness, anticipating fiery indignation, instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame, for the joy available in remaining obedient to God the Father.
Obviously He bore the sins of all mankind, past, present, and future, when He was judged on the Cross.
He wasn’t shameful in His actions or thinking or in His spirit. Throughout the process, He remained faithful to God the Father.
You have not provided ONE specific reference where the author supposedly makes this claim. Please let me know when you do.
The article confuses the temptation of sinners before an angry God, who have a tendency to view God from the viewpoint of unrighteousness, anticipating fiery indignation
While some may view God as "wrathful" or "vengeful", I do not. God wrath or vengenace is a manifestation of His righteous judgment displayed on an uncaring populace that has gone too far in reprobation.
instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame, for the joy available in remaining obedient to God the Father.
This is not what Isaiah says:
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
...
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
BTW-It's odd that you're using the term that Christ was shamed when you made such a point against that with this author. Don't you see the contradiction in your view between your two statements?
instead of the perspective of Jesus Christ who disregarded shame
He wasn’t shameful in His actions or ...
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