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Mariaphobic Response Syndrome: Part Two
MarkShea.com ^ | 2005 | Mark P. Shea

Posted on 01/01/2013 1:17:14 PM PST by Salvation

 

Mariaphobic Response Syndrome: Part Two

In my last column, I remarked that the surprise for many Evangelical converts to the Catholic faith is how much smaller Mary is to the Catholic than she is to the Evangelical. For the Evangelical, "the Catholic Mary" looms large as a kind of ur-goddess. The fear that pre-occupies the Evangelical imagination is that, say what Catholics will, once the convert is safely inside the Church, the priest will produce the brain chip implant and you will be reprogrammed to adore and worship Mary by the Vatican's Mind Control Laser Platform in Geosynchronous Orbit above North America.

But the reality, when you finally get past the irrational terror of Mary and enter the Church is that nobody thinks she's another God, as you feared. Instead, you find that a small minority of Catholics think she's another Pope.

It's funny really. Each religious tradition has its own genius and its own pathologies. On the pathology side of Evangelicalism, particularly charismatic flavors, one sees (in a peculiar minority of Evangelicals) a frequent anointing of "prophets" who have the End Times mapped out in one way or another. Usually, this involves heavy doses of Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation, as well as ingenious interpretations of events in Israel, bar codes, and numerical evaluations of some world leader's name.

But lest Catholics clap themselves on the back too much, it must be noted that the convert is tempted to mutter "different religion, same pathologies" when he enters the Catholic communion only to be greeted by a small but earnest cadre of apocalypse-minded Catholics who center exactly the same sort of prognosticating, not around Daniel, Ezekiel and Revelation-after all, we're Catholics, we don't read the Bible more than we have to-but around some alleged revelation of Mary involving chastisements, asteroid impacts, Three Days of Darkness, and weird commands issued to the Pope or the bishops of the world.

The queer thing about this particular subculture in the Church is that it appears to hold to the notion of "Church Governance by Apparition". A certain sort of Catholic can get the notion in his head that the Church is governed, not by the bishops in succession from the Apostles and in union with the Pope, but by a series of private revelations from Mary. Such Catholics are often not particularly cautious about distinguishing between public and private revelation, still less about whether a Marian apparition has been approved by the Church. Indeed, the creepier and more apocalyptic the "revelation" the more such a Catholic will be certain that its rejection by the Church is a sign of apostasy and imminent judgment on the Sinister Masonic/New Age/Jewish conspiracy at work in the hierarchy. So if an alleged Marian apparition starts claiming that the Pope must define this or that teaching as dogma, or starts telling Catholics to save up beeswax candles to prepare themselves for the Three Days of Darkness that are just around the corner, the apparition enthusiast will often regard it as a judgment on the Pope--not on the reality of the "vision"--if the Pope does not salute smartly and do whatever the latest visionary is demanding.

This is, however, to fundamentally fail to grasp what the Church has always taught with the authority of Christ. A Marian private revelation is no more binding on the Pope than it is binding on any other Catholic. The governance of the Church remains the task of the Church's Christ-appointed governors, the bishops. Mary does not supercede them in their proper and Christ-appointed role and authentic Marian apparitions never try to do so. If the Magisterium judges a Marian revelation to be authentic, the Holy Father or the bishops may well act in obedience to it (as, for instance, when Our Lady of Guadalupe requested the building of a Church and Our Lady of Fatima requested the consecration of Russia to her Immaculate Heart). But in such cases, the Magisterium is still left to act in freedom. It is not obliged to practice government-by-apparition and apparition enthusiasts overstep their bounds when they declare a Pope or bishop "apostate" if they fail to live up to the apparitionist's level of enthusiasm.

This basic counsel to trust the Holy Spirit in leading the Church comes hard for many people. The spectrum can be wide in such matters. Some people are the type who immediately rush off to start praying the Rosary and light candles to water stains on a highway underpass in Crawfordsville, Indiana. Others don't find even Church-approved apparitions and private revelations particularly helpful to them and therefore don't bother with them much. That's their right (the Church doesn't say you must have a devotion to, say, Our Lady of Fatima or Guadalupe, just that you may) but the sensible thing to do is to trust the Holy Spirit to guide the Church as he promised he would. Otherwise, we can find that our passions become so engaged in defending our views that, should the Church rule against us, we end up placing our view of private revelation over the Church's and condemning the Church for its "erroneous" approval or disapproval.

Copyright 2005 - Mark P. Shea



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: blessedvirginmary; catholic
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Part Two
1 posted on 01/01/2013 1:17:26 PM PST by Salvation
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To: nickcarraway; NYer; ELS; Pyro7480; livius; ArrogantBustard; Catholicguy; RobbyS; marshmallow; ...

Catholic and Orthodox Ping!


2 posted on 01/01/2013 1:18:28 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

Mariaphobic?

Just because I do not believe that Mary is a deity and does not have more power than Jesus or God, I am Mary-phobic?

I pray to God is Jesus’ name, because that is Christian.

The very idea that praying to dead, mortal humans to intercede for Jesus tells me you think all your human-appointed Saints (10,000 or so?) have more power than Jesus.

They have no power to “intercede”. It is blasphemy to think that poor widdle weak Jesus needs others to intercede. Nothing in the bible supports this idea.


3 posted on 01/01/2013 1:24:40 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL

You use that word “intercede” to apply to Catholic teaching.

I do not think it means for us what you think it means...


4 posted on 01/01/2013 1:29:24 PM PST by Bayard
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To: Salvation

Love it! Every year I put up a Catholic calendar entitled “Our Lady in Art” in my workplace & it drives my Calvinist coworkers nuts:

“You call her the `Mother of God’, that means she’s a goddess, right? And depicting Jesus as an infant belittles His ministry, doesn’t it?”

In 1998 I asked them, “Who would you rather led this nation, John Paul II or Bill Clinton?”

“That’s not fair!!”


5 posted on 01/01/2013 1:30:59 PM PST by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: GeronL
Didn't read the article, did you?

What you posted is not true - what Evangelicals believe Catholics believe is nowhere near the truth. But - as the article says Evangelicals insist on telling Catholics what Catholics believe, instead of listening to the Catholics when they tell them what they actually believe.

Here's the issue in the article: WHY do you spend so much time hyperventilating over Mary-as-goddess (something no Catholic believes), when it would seem to be a lot more rational to be having fits over the fact that we do believe that the Blessed Sacrament is Jesus - body and blood, soul and divinity. (Jack Chick has periodic fits over it, but nobody on FR seems to ever mention it.)

6 posted on 01/01/2013 1:32:48 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: GeronL
It is blasphemy to think that poor widdle weak Jesus needs others to intercede.

He (gives; permits; allows) them to intercede. Nothing like "needing" them to intercede. Surely you can see the difference.

Hope Walmart's pharmacy is open today. I'm off to pick up my RX. Note that although Jesus didn't NEED for WMRT to fulfill the prescription (he could have made the drug magically appear in my veins), He allowed them to intercede (because that's the way the world normally works).

7 posted on 01/01/2013 1:33:23 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture™)
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To: AnAmericanMother
what Evangelicals believe Catholics believe is nowhere near the truth

This Evangelical grew up Catholic: baptized, confirmed, first communion... Also happened to be National Catechism Champion in High School in Spain. And I do feel uncomfortable, to say the least, with the degree of reverence given to Mary in the Catholic church. You say that praying and lighting candles is not worshiping... I think you are splitting hairs here!

8 posted on 01/01/2013 1:38:39 PM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: steve86

How does a dead mortal human do that?

It’s blasphemous.

BTW, nice to see that you learned from the homosexuals and others to claim victimhood if someone does accept your ideas as gospel fact, “Mariaphobic”... lol. That is not a defense of your idea.


9 posted on 01/01/2013 1:38:58 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: elcid1970

Sigh...they might not grasp that the title Mother of God has a always been an important illustration of the union between Jesus’ humanity and divinity.

If God was not man enough to be born in flesh, he was not consequently dead enough to have truly died in the flesh either.

Therefore the title given to Mary has always defended the identity of Jesus Immanuel.


10 posted on 01/01/2013 1:39:51 PM PST by Bayard
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To: GeronL

Amen GeronL. But it will be lost on the Papists.


11 posted on 01/01/2013 1:39:59 PM PST by BipolarBob (White ,bitter, clinging to my Bible and AR-15.)
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To: steve86

Walmart is open but they don’t have rotisserie chicken. Me and Mr. M are recovering from the flu and were hoping for some. Don’t know about the pharmacy.

On topic - I pray the rosary every day. It’s very Biblical. It’s a useful meditation for me and helps me center my day. The Hail Mary is a combination of the words of Mary’s cousin Elizabeth “Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee, blessed art though among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb....” The second half is a request to Mary that she pray for us, “now and at the hour of our death.” I ask others to pray for me. I’m asked by others to pray for them. When someone asks me to pray for a person, I get that person’s first name and I do pray for him/her. I lift them up to Jesus. Some of the confusion may be the “how many angels dancing on the head of a pin” debate of whether those who have died are aware and in the presence of God or do they have to wait for the second coming. I’m not sure of much but I am sure that neither God nor prayer are bound time. With that in place, I don’t worry about whether the time line is right. I just keep praying anyway I can find.


12 posted on 01/01/2013 1:45:36 PM PST by Mercat (Adventures make you late for dinner. Bilbo Baggins)
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To: steve86
He (gives; permits; allows) them to intercede

Where in the Bible is that and who is "them"? Show me their names listed in the Bible.

13 posted on 01/01/2013 1:45:39 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL
You seem to be replying to the wrong thread or the wrong FReeper (noticed that on both threads).

When I pick up my RX I am going to down it with Holy Water just to get a reaction out of the Prottie pharmacist (not really).

14 posted on 01/01/2013 1:48:38 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture™)
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To: Former Fetus
I don't see any worshipping Mary going on here, and I was raised Episcopalian, so I think I have a pretty clear view.

For example, in the Rosary, the portions addressed to Mary request that she "pray for us sinners" -- but when a prayer is addressed directly to God, we say, "Let us pray" -- e.g. at the end of the 5 decades, addressing "Almighty and eternal God, who by the life, death and resurrection of thine only-begotten Son, didst gain for us the fruits of everlasting life . . . . "

Do you see the difference?

That's not splitting hairs, that's a real and valid distinction.

Also, many high-schoolers' religious growth stops at Confirmation. If you were confirmed as a high-school sophomore or junior (as my daughter was), you are hardly done with learning - in fact, you have just begun. Certainly there are few high-school age religious education leaders or theology teachers, or teachers of any kind, because most young people are still learning and not ready to teach. And the last I checked theology was not a championship sport, kind of an odd concept in itself - "when I was a child, I thought and spoke as a child . . ."

But if you were taught in Confirmation class to worship Mary, I am really worried about your Religious Ed instructor.

15 posted on 01/01/2013 1:48:38 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: GeronL
The idea that the dead are just dead is not Scriptural.

At the Transfiguration, Our Lord was conversing with Moses and Elijah. Were they "dead mortal humans" while conversing with Christ?

And Christ himself said the Father is not the God of the dead, but of the living, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Are they "dead mortal humans"?

16 posted on 01/01/2013 1:52:44 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: Mercat
Very good on the Rosary. Sincere and straightforward. With your permission I might add that as an attributed quote on my profile page.

I pray the Rosary daily also although not always perfectly (# of prayers, etc.) One time I was so sick with Norovirus I could only get out a word or two for each mystery, but I tried. Never a missed day since inception if you allow the truncated ones. I am quite sure all these prayers will be quite important at the moment of death.

17 posted on 01/01/2013 1:55:19 PM PST by steve86 (Acerbic by Nature, not Nurture™)
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To: GeronL

Probably because Jesus Christ is alive in each Christian through the spirit we receive from our Baptism.

Through the Holy Spirit anyone can intercede on a persons behalf. When we pray in the spirit, Christ within intercedes on our behalf. Read these passages carefully Jas 5:13-15; Eph 6:18; Rom 6:26-30.

If Christ is alive within us, what we pray for is done through Jesus through the Holy Spirit. How much more is Christ alive in a person than in the saints in heaven? How much more is Christ interceding than in the bonfire created by the Holy Spirit among many?


18 posted on 01/01/2013 1:56:30 PM PST by Bayard
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To: AnAmericanMother
It was a long time ago, in another country, but catechism competitions (local, regional and national) were a way to encourage young people to study. Ideal? I don't know. What I do know is that I could "recite" the catechism back and forth, with no prompting. It got me an audience with our archbishop, who asked me a few questions and blessed me.

I was not taught to "worship" Mary, but instead I learned the Marian devotions, from the Rosary to the Novenas. I lit candles, prayed to Mary on my knees... it was only later that I started questioning such activities.

Let's not forget that the main point of the article is that there are more important differences between Evangelicals and Catholics, such as the Eucharist. And, in that point, I wholeheartedly agree.

19 posted on 01/01/2013 2:03:28 PM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: Bayard
Sigh...they might not grasp that the title Mother of God has a always been an important illustration of the union between Jesus’ humanity and divinity.

Yes. I was taught that the title was an acknowledgement of who Jesus was (is). It ensures a correct understanding of the Savior's nature. It is about Him, not her. That being said, I have to believe that Mary was a very special person to play such a unique role in the Plan of Salvation. (I'm not Roman Catholic, by the way).

20 posted on 01/01/2013 2:05:39 PM PST by TexasKamaAina
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To: AnAmericanMother
The idea that the dead are just dead is not Scriptural.

The idea that some dead or more powerful in heaven than others is Scriptural? The idea that we can pray to dad human mortals to "intercede" instead of praying to God through Jesus (gee, I remember something about praying to God in Jesus' name as the way it goes) is Scriptural?

The idea that a group of living mortal humans gets to appoint which dead humans have this power is Scriptural?

Please show me the chapter and verse.

Christianity is pretty simple. Jesus is Lord. --> Catholicism has created a top-heavy heavenly bureaucracy that the AFL-CIO would envy. Give me 8 hail mary's, fill out these forms in triplicate, sign here and here, initial here, here and here, get St. Peter to stamp this page at the next window if he isn't out fishing again, and we will have Jonah get this to Mary so she can intercede for you.

Seriously, just praying to Jesus/God is a lot less hassle.

21 posted on 01/01/2013 2:07:37 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: Salvation; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

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Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

22 posted on 01/01/2013 2:10:41 PM PST by narses
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To: Salvation; HerrBlucher; mgist; raptor22; victim soul; Isabel2010; Smokin' Joe; Michigander222; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of general interest.

23 posted on 01/01/2013 2:11:17 PM PST by narses
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To: GeronL

Credo in Deum Patrem omnipotentem;
Creatorem caeli et terrae.

Et in Jesum Christum,
Filium eius unicum, Dominum nostrum;
qui conceptus est
de Spiritu Sancto,
natus ex Maria virgine;
passus sub Pontio Pilato,
crucifixus, mortuus, et sepultus;
descendit ad inferos;
tertia die resurrexit a mortuis;
ascendit ad caelos;
sedet ad dexteram Dei Patris omnipotentis;
inde venturus est
iudicare vivos et mortuos.

Credo in Spiritum Sanctum;
sanctam ecclesiam catholicam;
sanctorum communionem;
remissionem peccatorum;
carnis resurrectionem;
vitam aeternam. Amen.

In English:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ,
his only Son, our Lord.
He was conceived
by the power of the Holy Spirit,
and born of the Virgin Mary,
He suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
He descended into hell.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
he will come again
to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy Catholic church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen


24 posted on 01/01/2013 2:14:50 PM PST by narses
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To: TexasKamaAina

Why not? It sounds like you’ve caught it.

Personally, I’ve met many Christians who do in fact “get it” when talking about Mary though


25 posted on 01/01/2013 2:15:43 PM PST by Bayard
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To: GeronL

Catholicism holds that there is an entire community of believers, not just one person. That’s why it may seem complex.

But that is because God made many people, not just one person. Take all of Hebrews 11, especially the last verses.

We are all a body of Christ, not just an individual of Christ.


26 posted on 01/01/2013 2:22:39 PM PST by Bayard
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To: Salvation

As a “was raised Roman Catholic,” let me assure you that the converts from Evangelical to RC aren’t real. There’s no way that you can be saved by the grace through faith alone and then go back to relying on your works. I instead proclaim that those evangelical converts had not really understood what they thought they believed. They’re called false converts. Ray Comfort has a great sermon called Hell’s Best Kept Secret. You should listen to it. I was amazingly gratified to stop praying to Mary and repented of it deeply to my Savior, Jesus Christ. The last words we hear Mary speak, “Do whatever He(Jesus) tells you.”
Thanks for the article.


27 posted on 01/01/2013 2:24:34 PM PST by deltaromeo11 (Luke 16:31, Gen 7:16)
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To: Bayard

and.... ?

This allows you to pray to dead people?

Isn’t that like ancestor worship?

I guess its back to polytheism


28 posted on 01/01/2013 2:25:55 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: GeronL

You have to understand the psychology of demonizing the people you hate.

Calling people who don’t accept the divinity of Mary “Mariaphobic is exactly analogous to calling people who don’t believe we should redefine the parameters of marriage “homophobic”.

They are both hateful and counterproductive name calling.


29 posted on 01/01/2013 2:30:46 PM PST by DManA
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To: Salvation

Most Protestants freak out when they hear “Queen of Heaven”. I would be one of those.


30 posted on 01/01/2013 2:31:38 PM PST by freedomfiter2 (Brutal acts of commission and yawning acts of omission both strengthen the hand of the devil.)
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To: DManA

It is just more protestant bashing


31 posted on 01/01/2013 2:37:04 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: AnAmericanMother

“But - as the article says Evangelicals insist on telling Catholics what Catholics believe, instead of listening to the Catholics when they tell them what they actually believe.”

That’s really an over-simplification. Evangelicals have a theological view, and if you accept that view, Catholic claims and apologetics don’t hold up to scrutiny. Of course, Catholics don’t accept that view, so they don’t see a problem. It’s not a matter of believing Catholics, or not believing them. It’s a matter of holding the same actions up to two different standards of judgement, and coming to two different conclusions.

To use an analogy, if I believe that Islam is a demonic deception, it’s not simply that I refuse to believe Muslims who tell me otherwise. Rather, I have come to a conclusion based on some evidence, and a particular standard that I apply to evaluate that evidence. You might argue my standard is wrong, or I’m misinterpreting the evidence, but don’t tell me that I am just refusing to believe you out of spite, or willfulness, or something like that.


32 posted on 01/01/2013 3:19:52 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: GeronL

“Just because I do not believe that Mary is a deity and does not have more power than Jesus or God, I am Mary-phobic?”

It’s just unseemly for Christians to be adopting homosexual language and leftist tactics in order to guilt trip other Christians into silence.


33 posted on 01/01/2013 3:24:40 PM PST by Boogieman
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To: GeronL

And...

You don’t get it.

None of your propositions are accurate.


34 posted on 01/01/2013 3:24:50 PM PST by Bayard
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To: GeronL
Is the the communion of saints, a foreign concept to you? Are you a member of a sect that rejects the common creeds of the Christian Faith?
35 posted on 01/01/2013 3:27:23 PM PST by narses
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To: Salvation
As an Evangelical, let me just say this:

It is quite possible, and I am more than ready to believe, that the RC Church discerns a theological distinction between ‘worship’ and ‘reverence’ or ‘adoration’ or whatever word is used.

I am even willing to admit for the sake of argument that said distinction actually exists.

However, what we see is that in practice it is a distinction without a difference.

Especially in 3rd world countries, I have seen for myself that for the peasant Catholic there, it is often Mary rather than Jesus, or the Father, that is prayed to.

36 posted on 01/01/2013 3:59:19 PM PST by chesley (Vast deserts of political ignorance makes liberalism possible - James Lewis)
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To: Salvation

I thought the Mariaphobics might be the criminals who are allergic to residing in Maricopa Country, AZ!


37 posted on 01/01/2013 4:06:25 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Salvation

I thought the Mariaphobics might be the criminals who are allergic to residing in Maricopa County, AZ!


38 posted on 01/01/2013 4:06:44 PM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: Salvation
“Mariaphobia”? Perhaps Mariolatry would be a more descriptive term as this partial quote of the Catholic view of Mary shows:

“The power which Christ has by His nature, Mary has by grace. Like Him she sits upon a throne, and as Queen she wields a sceptre, and out of love every knee should bow before her, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth (Phil. 2:10). The inhabitants of heaven honour Mary with a special homage; they continually sing her praises with hymns and canticles. After the service of God nothing gives them greater joy than to serve Mary. The Archangel Gabriel, who greeted her in God's name at Nazareth now remains before her in heaven, regarding it as a privilege to receive her commands and to put them into execution. The Archangel Michael, deputed by God as the guardian of the Church, and the one whose office it is to introduce the souls of the saved into heaven, even he considers himself privileged to receive an expression of Mary's wishes. Similarly, the Archangel Raphael and the seven spirits that stand before the throne of God are always ready to carry out her will in all things. All vie with one another in honouring her and in finding new ways of rendering her the homage of their service, their love, and their devotion.”
(Devotional bulletin of the Rosary Crusade in Canada
May 2002 Issue #17) www.sspx.ca/Rosary_Crusade/issue_17.htm

How is it not idolatry to deliberately misapply Phil. 2:10 to Mary? Or is this a new syndrome....call it “Scripturaignoratum”? or pick your term.

39 posted on 01/01/2013 4:36:43 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: count-your-change

you have made the mistake of using the sspx, a schismatic group, as an example of true catholic teaching....note at the bottom of the quote...

www.sspx.ca/Rosary_Crusade/issue_17.htm

this is indeed a prime example of of folks trying to tell catholics what they truly believe or what the church truly teaches...let’s get our details correct before tossing out a baseless acusation.


40 posted on 01/01/2013 4:58:30 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: BipolarBob

“Papists”

That is sooooooooooooo snake handling of you to say.

;^)


41 posted on 01/01/2013 5:19:09 PM PST by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: GeronL

I agree with you that bodies die.

But the soul does not. Depending on one’s life, the soul goes to heaven, hell or purgatory. It is very much alive.

The souls in heaven and in purgatory (In purgatory, they know they will eventually get to heaven after the harm done on earth has been atoned for.) can and DO pray for us if we ask them to.

Obviously the souls in hell cannot pray for us.

Remember the story of the rich man and the beggar, Lazaruse? The rich man asked to go back and warn his brothers about what was in store for them since he saw Lazarus the beggar in heaven. His soul was totally alive.


42 posted on 01/01/2013 5:31:11 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: elcid1970
That is sooooooooooooo snake handling of you to say.
heh heh My epidermis is showing.
43 posted on 01/01/2013 6:15:42 PM PST by BipolarBob (Happy Hunger Games! May the odds be ever in your favor.)
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To: Salvation

praying TO dead people is ancestor worship, not Christianity

praying to Jesus for the deceased is in keeping with Christianity though


44 posted on 01/01/2013 6:19:15 PM PST by GeronL (http://asspos.blogspot.com)
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To: raygunfan

This “schismatic group” is as “Catholic” as any other and you haven’t said how what was said here is at odds with typical Catholic teaching.

So what in that quote do you NOT agree with?


45 posted on 01/01/2013 6:34:39 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: deltaromeo11; Salvation; NYer
"The last words we hear Mary speak, 'Do whatever He(Jesus) tells you.'"

And right before that was spoken, Mary interceded with Jesus for the needs of the wedding party, after their wine ran out. Of course, Jesus honored Mary's intercession by performing a miracle. (Read John 2.)

- - - - - - -

"As a 'was raised Roman Catholic,' let me assure you that the converts from Evangelical to RC aren’t real."

If you read some of the following books documenting many conversions from Evangelical to Roman Catholic (with an honest heart and a genuinely truth-seeking mind), I am certain you will no longer believe or assert that statement you made.

     By What Authority? an Evangelical Discovers Catholic Tradition - Mark P. Shea

     No Price too High: A Pentecostal Preacher Becomes Catholic - Alex Jones

     Rome Sweet Home: Our Journey to Catholicism - Scott and Kimberly Hahn

     Crossing the Tiber - Stephen K. Ray

      Evangelical is Not Enough: Worship of God in Liturgy and Sacrament - Thomas Howard

     Lead, Kindly Light: My Journey to Rome - Thomas Howard

     Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic - David Currie

     A Biblical Defense of Catholicism - Dave Armstrong

     Journeys Home - Marcus Grodi

     My Life on the Rock: A Rebel Returns to the Catholic Faith - Jeff Cavins

     If Protestantism is True: The Reformation Meets Rome - Devin Rose

     Surprised by Truth: 11 Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming Catholic - Patrick Madrid

     Catholicism and Fundamentalism: The Attack on "Romanism" by "Bible Christians" - Karl Keating

46 posted on 01/01/2013 8:13:47 PM PST by Heart-Rest ("I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life" Deuteronomy 30:19)
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To: count-your-change

since sspx isnt in communion with Christ’s one holy catholic and apostolic church, what they teach or practice isnt true roman catholic teaching.....

why dont you check what the roman catholic church actually teaches instead of a rosary screed from a non roman catholic source???

sspx ISNT AS CATHOLIC as any other....

Christ’s church built on Peter and his successors HAS NVR TAUGHT any thing like this as dogma or doctrine.


47 posted on 01/01/2013 8:20:21 PM PST by raygunfan
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To: Former Fetus

If you were steeped in the catechism you should know that there are veru different sorts of worship. In England, they speak of some officials as “your worship” —which is short for “worthy of respect.” Not all worship is idolatry. Not all reverence even for icons is idolatry. The cult of Mary can go to extremes but so can the iconoclasm of the puritans and other radicals of the Reformation, who not only smashed beautiful statutes but white-washed murals so as not to distract from the worship of the words coming from the mouths of the preachers, which were supposed to be the true Gospel. It was not unlike the approach of the desert Muslims, except that they—unlike the Puritains—love poetry.


48 posted on 01/01/2013 8:26:54 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: chesley

Which does not means that the Catholic Church Church has taught him to pray to Mary rather than to Christ or to the Father. This is his PRIVATE interpretation of the Gospel.


49 posted on 01/01/2013 8:35:01 PM PST by RobbyS (Christus rex.)
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To: raygunfan

to repeat...

So what in that quote do you NOT agree with?

It’s a simple question, one I’m sure you can answer since you said:

“Christ’s church built on Peter and his successors HAS NVR TAUGHT any thing like this as dogma or doctrine.”

So what in that quote do you NOT agree with?


50 posted on 01/01/2013 8:57:36 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have to be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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