Further Reading
Catholic Devotion to the Saints, in the light of Jewish Scripture and TraditionJames Akin on Praying to the Saints
Posted on 01/02/2013 11:43:34 AM PST by Salvation
So you do accept intercessory prayer to the saints in heaven, relying on the authority of the Church as custodian and interpreter of Sacred Tradition. Glad to hear it.
Note that this is the final article with which both the Catholic and Lutheran princes were in agreement. Seeking the intercession of the saints is neither commended nor explicitly condemned.
http://www.bookofconcord.org/augsburgconfession.php#article21
Article XXI: Of the Worship of the Saints.
1] Of the Worship of Saints they teach that the memory of saints may be set before us, that we may follow their faith and good works, according to our calling, as the Emperor may follow the example of David in making war to drive away the Turk from his country. 2] For both are kings. But the Scripture teaches not the invocation of saints or to ask help of saints, since it sets before us the one Christ as the Mediator, Propitiation, High Priest, and Intercessor. 3] He is to be prayed to, and has promised that He will hear our prayer; and this worship He approves above all, to wit, that in all afflictions He be called upon, 1 John 2:1: 4] If any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, etc.
Catholics do not worship saints. We ask them to pray for us. That’s not worship.
We worship only God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. Where are you getting this misinformation?
Further Reading
Catholic Devotion to the Saints, in the light of Jewish Scripture and TraditionJames Akin on Praying to the Saints
“You seem to be making an exception for “departed” that does not exist in scripture. We are to ask for other’s prayers, not excluding anyone in the Body of Christ.”
The distinction is in scripture and self evident. They are not here.
“As to the Saints in Heaven being aware we have scripture from Revelation and that concerning the “cloud of witnesses” to tell us they do - as well as being alive in Christ, God of the living.”
Yes, their lives witnessed the truth of God. They are not watching us.
“So you do accept intercessory prayer to the saints in heaven, relying on the authority of the Church as custodian and interpreter of Sacred Tradition. Glad to hear it.”
I gave you three shots. You’ve yet to get it right. Sorry.
bert gets his information from the little voices in his head that tell him what to say...he’s quite brave behind his keyboard ya know...
The distinction is in scripture and self evident. They are not here.
I think the opposite. Where is it clear and self evident to you, contradicting the cited scripture?
their lives witnessed the truth of God. They are not watching us.
If I am surrounded by witnesses, I think it is a required meaning that they are witnessing.
Of course, you may have your own interpretation, but I do not see where you have been convincing in using scripture to disprove the Communion of Saints in the creeds as taught by the Church.
“Of course, you may have your own interpretation, but I do not see where you have been convincing in using scripture to disprove the Communion of Saints in the creeds as taught by the Church.”
D-fender, I’ve not even tried. I have asked up thread for three kinds of proof, but it wasn’t given.
I do not have to disprove anything. I’m not the one who made a truth claim. I did state clearly that I am open to reviewing the evidence that would support this claim, but none was given.
We disagree on who needs to provide proof for their claim.
Scripture clearly indicates we are alive as the body of Christ and that our God is the God of the living and that the Saints in Heaven are part of Christ’s body and so on.
I see you as needing to provide proof that the Saints in heaven are excluded from the Body of Christ and, in this case, intercessory prayer.
You see, according to your interpretation, the need to prove they are included; I see the need to prove they are excluded.
It should be no surprise to you that I will stick with the Church as the authority rather than you.
I do appreciate your time, replies and discussion.
D,
You are arguing something that I am not disagreeing with.
Now take that base we agree on and demonstrate :
1. Saints in heaven can hear you
2. That God wants us to pray to/through saints
3. That Christians understood this as an important part of Christian practice before 100ad,
It will probably not surprise you that like Paul commended, I will search the Holy Scriptures to see if the teachings of any man are true - including leaders of every and any Church.
Blessings to you in this new year.
Thanks for your reply.
The scriptures in the article, e.g. witnesses, demonstrate the awareness of the Saints in Heaven.
We are taught in scripture that God wishes us to pray for each other and ask for each others intercessory prayer and that we are one body, what we do effects each other and the whole.
As for the history of this practice, I’m unaware of when it was not, nor of a time when it was instituted. We see it in the first century writing of St. John the Evangelist and thereafter in the writings of various fathers of the Church.
It is part of the Christian faith to pray for each other and ask for each other’s intercessory prayer. That we are alive in Christ, that death does not separate us. The Communion of Saints is also part of the Christian faith as in the creeds. These two beliefs are part of our faith since its beginning, there is no indication otherwise. Rather, there is more evidence that it was lost - for some - in modern times.
Of course, it is not necessary or required as such that anyone pray for or ask for another’s intercession. It is both scripturally and historical taught that this is good, pleasing to God and for both our individual benefit and that of all the Church.
So, in my opinion, the loss of the full meaning of the Communion of Saints is like losing the realization of a large portion of the body of Christ.
Thanks again for your discussion and may God bless you and yours in the coming year.
Oh d, not a single Scripture in the article commanded or demonstrated this. Not one.
As to your 1st century writing, please post with date.
Revelation is first Century.
Other first century scripture including those in the body of Christ are alive in Christ. This is the teaching of Holy Scripture.
Do you disagree with this part?
Or with the part on intercessory prayer?
Or that the Saints in Heaven are aware?
I don’t understand where you are disconnecting from the Communion of Saints and intercessory prayer.
D,
We agree that all saints of all time are alive.
We even agree that all saints of all time should pray (I think we agree).
We do not agree that saints up above watch us or are aware of what we are doing. They may or may not. Scripture does not tell us this.
We also see absolutely no evidence during the 1st 100 years of the Church that any Christian prayed to saints. As such, it was not part of Apostolic Tradition.
We also see no Scripture that commands or encourages saints down here to pray to saints up there. Why? If this is important for His Church, why didn’t God the Father command it? We are commanded to do all kinds of very important things.
There is no evidence that any Apostle prayed to any saint up above. The Apostle Paul watched the martyrdom of Steven, but there is no evidence that Paul prayed to anyone but God Himself.
No evidence that Peter or any other Apostle prayed to a saint above. Why?
We find no historical document (that I have found through research) before the late second or early third century that sees this happening. Why?
If this practice is a part of the Church - the Church that Christ founded - why don’t the Apostles - or even one Apostle - mention, command or instruct the Church to do so?
Because none of these things are evident, I can only conclude the origins of this practice are outside the Church and are totally unimportant - probably irrelevant.
Now, I don’t write any of that to get you or anyone else to change their mind. Many do not want to deal with those issues. I do. I want to do what is commanded of me - to study to show myself approved, rightly handling the Word of Truth.
In the end, so much has accreted to the practice of the Church that has no foundation in truth, that it takes work to cut it away.
In any case, if you have historical or Biblical evidence of any of the above, I am open, as we all should be. That also means I am open to disagreeing with that which is neither Biblically based, nor evident in the early teaching of the Apostles during their lives. Beyond that, cats have wondered into the Church and should be shooed out.
Kindest Regards
That helps, thanks.
I think the Hebrews scripture and Revelation scripture show that the Saints are aware. And they are alive, aware and concerned and praying/interceding.
As for as being required or commanded, no; as for it being assumed, recommended, asked for, a good and pleasing thing yes - particularly when we do not try to make a, false IMHO, separation between Saints in the Church Militant and Church Triumphant. It is only if we separate the Body of Christ that any possible conflict can occur - or the questions you ask can arise.
As for history of the practice: Of course, the longer the Christian Church exists, the more Saints there are, the more the practice as it concerns Christian Saints in Heaven increases. The great majority of Saints in Heaven were not even born when Holy Scripture was recorded.
Also, here’s a couple of quotes from the early Church that apply:
Hermas
“[The Shepherd said:] ‘But those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord; but the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask him. But you, [Hermas,] having been strengthened by the holy angel [you saw], and having obtained from him such intercession, and not being slothful, why do not you ask of the Lord understanding, and receive it from him?’” (The Shepherd 3:5:4 [A.D. 80]).
Clement of Alexandria
“In this way is he [the true Christian] always pure for prayer. He also prays in the society of angels, as being already of angelic rank, and he is never out of their holy keeping; and though he pray alone, he has the choir of the saints standing with him [in prayer]” (Miscellanies 7:12 [A.D. 208]).
thanks again...
D,
Thanks for the two quotes. The first doesn’t show him praying to a Christian above, but to God, having seen an angel. The second is more than 200 years after Christ. I confess I couldn’t find any historical evidence any better.
I don’t have time to discuss Hebrews at the moment or Revelation. I will just say that neither refers to what is assumed in your post, but I’ve not time at the moment to give you an exposition in a fair way - and maybe you don’t care anyway. If you are interested, leave a message and I’ll do it over the next 24 hours. I’m just juggling too much already for one day.
There is a natural separation and difference between them and us. They are in the presence of God, in a spiritual existence, outside time and likely with new resurrection bodies. We are in our earth suits, here in time, and longing for eternity. That isn’t artificial. It is recognizing what is in reality true.
Speaking of caught in time, I’ll talk later.
The two quotes go together. The first to illustrate an angel's intercession. The second to identify the Saints in Heaven as in a similar state to that of angels.
You are correct that the Church Triumphant consists of Saints in a different state than ours. We are still connected - part of the same body of Christ in the Communion of Saints. And, I believe, you are incorrect in any thinking that this state or awareness is as limited as ours or even less than ours.
They are in the presence of God, in a spiritual existence, outside time… We are in our earth suits, here in time… That isn’t artificial.
Yes, but from here you, apparently surmise they cannot be aware of us. I say you have the lesser awareness on the wrong side. We are almost infinitely less aware than they.
St. Paul:
"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known."Thanks very much for your courtesy, time and discussion.
"I tell you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
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