Skip to comments.“Excommunication, I’m still glowing”
Posted on 01/03/2013 1:20:24 PM PST by NYer
Marc Barnes says of this women’s ordination video “Ordain a lady: that “This might be the greatest video ever to happen to the Catholic Church.” and goes on in post Why The Catholic Priesthood Is Composed of Dudes
Ordain A Lady YouTube Video
This is certainly the funniest thing I have seen in a while and one of the best defenses for the Church’s teaching. I would have been hard-pressed to make a better parody and the words are genius. Well at least it would be a genius video if it wasn’t real.
Though one thing that really gets my ire up. I am so tired of women’s ordination proponents using Saint Thérèse of Lisieux as if she was also a proponent of women’s ordination. This is pure calumny.
“If only I were a priest! How lovingly I would bear You in my hands, my Jesus, when my voice had brought You down from Heaven. How lovingly I would give. You to souls!” “Yet while wanting to be a priest, I admire St. Francis of Assisi and envy his humility, longing to imitate him in refusing this sublime dignity.”
By the logic they use I guess Therese also wanted to get a sex change operation to be a man since she admired St. Francis’ humility. Funny also how women’s ordination proponents also usually leave out the part about envying humility. But humility does not go hand and hand when you say you are right and the Church guided by the Holy Spirit is wrong.
Other churches try to shmooze me but I'm a catholic, so ordain me!
Lol ... they're not giving up.
It took me a couple of minutes to realize that this wasn’t a parody video of some sort. It was so cheesy and over the top that I thought it just had to be a joke of some sort.
Thanks for the laugh, NYer! These women are on crack.
YouTube: "Comments are disabled for this video."
Just an editorial note that Autofill inserted a period incorrectly after "give", probably because of the atypical capitalization of the word "You" when it refers to any person of the triune God. Should read:
"...How lovingly I would give You to souls!
sigh. All this gender bickering makes my head hurt.
I don’t believe Jesus wanted us to continue getting stuck in a mindset like the pharisees. He wanted our hearts and minds and bodies to serve Him, and our human nature has to go and screw up that simple thing.
I’m not gonna get into the my priest is better than your priest business. We get too focused on man-made and church-made rules and forget to be like Jesus, do like Jesus.
I think He will come back soon anyway and He’ll continue to fulfill every prophecy ever written about Him. I just want to be in His number, and have the sweet task of worshiping Him at His throne! And I bet there will be a lot of female “priests/pastors” who will be there right beside me, just like I can bet that there will be quite a few male priests/pastors who will NOT be there! Gender doesn’t automatically da#$ you to the eternal fires—it’s SIN. I’m not gonna get into the Church’s long list of types of sin, categories of sin, when children become aware of sin, where my soul goes when I die, etc. I’ll leave that to folks who have lots of time on their hands to argue such stuff.
It’s like the different types of baptism. I just tell my daughter it’s man’s way of messing up a very simple commitment to Jesus and then trying to make sure everyone else feels bad or inferior about their kind of baptism. We quarrel and quibble too much about stupid stuff and meanwhile souls and hearts are lost to Him. That is the real shame.
Perhaps I’m wrong here but my understanding was that reserving ordination for men was like reserving it for celibate men - ecclesiology rather than theology. That is its a matter for the church on earth to bind or let loose.
The church could, in theory, permit priests to marry as in the Eastern Orodox churches (although I understand why they do not). Could they not permit female ordination in the same way?
Please excuse any ignorance. I ask because some Orthodox churches are adding diaconesses to the roster again. Apparently it fell out of common practice for 1,400 years but it was never forbidden as such.
The Church cannot permit priests to marry.
However, she can permit married men to be ordained to the priesthood. That is a matter of discipline.
She cannot validly ordain women. That is a matter of doctrine.
my understanding was that reserving ordination for men was like reserving it for celibate men
Not exactly. At the most basic level, the answer to the question of a male priesthood is simple: The New Testament priesthood is the priesthood of Christ Himself. All men who, through the Sacrament of Holy Orders, have become priests (or bishops) participate in Christ's priesthood. And they participate in it in a very special way: They act in persona Christi Capitis, in the person of Christ, the Head of His Body, the Church. The ordination of men is an unbroken tradition that goes back not only to the Apostles but to Christ Himself. Ordination does not simply give a man permission to perform the functions of a priest; it imparts to him an indelible (permanent) spiritual character that makes him a priest, and since Christ and His Apostles chose only men to be priests, only men can validly become priests.
Insofar as the issue of celibacy, All Catholic Churches, with the exception of the Latin Church, allow for a married priesthood, like the Orthodox Churches. Although it is not widely known in our Western world, the Catholic Church is actually a communion of Churches. At present there are 22 Churches that comprise the Catholic Church. While this diversity within the one Catholic Church can appear confusing at first, it in no way compromises the Church's unity. In a certain sense, it is a reflection of the mystery of the Trinity. Just as God is three Persons, yet one God, so the Church is 22 Churches, yet one Church.
Speaking to the 11th General Synod Fathers, gathered for their eighth meeting at the Vatican in 2005, Cardinal Nasrallah Pierre Sfeir, who is Patriarch of Antioch of the Maronites in Lebanon--a Catholic rite which allows for married priests--addressed the issue, which had been brought up by many.
While pointing out that "the Maronite Church admits married priests" and that "half of our diocesan priests are married", the Cardinal Patriarch said that "it must be recognized that if admitting married men resolves one problem, it creates others just as serious."
"A married priest", he said, "has the duty to look after his wife and family, ensuring his children receive a good education and overseeing their entry into society. ... Another difficulty facing a married priest arises if he does not enjoy a good relationship with his parishioners; his bishop cannot transfer him because of the difficulty of transferring his whole family.
Essentially, the costs of maintaining a married priest and his family must either be borne by the parish community or the priest must take a job to earn sufficient funds to support the financial needs of his family. This includes: housing, transportation, medical & dental insurance, groceries, clothing, and education, to cite just a few items. The Maronite Catholic Church only allows married priests to serve in Lebanon. Outside that country, all of their clergy are celibate.
Could they not permit female ordination in the same way? I ask because some Orthodox churches are adding diaconesses to the roster again. Apparently it fell out of common practice for 1,400 years but it was never forbidden as such.
"No." The basis for the Churchs teaching on ordination is found in the New Testament as well as in the writings of the Church Fathers.
While women could publicly pray and prophesy in church (1 Cor. 11:116), they could not teach or have authority over a man (1 Tim. 2:1114), since these were two essential functions of the clergy. Nor could women publicly question or challenge the teaching of the clergy (1 Cor. 14:3438).
The following quotations from the Church Fathers indicate that women do play an active role in the Church and that in the age of the Fathers there were orders of virgins, widows, and deaconesses, but that these women were not ordained.
The Fathers rejected women's ordination, not because it was incompatible with Christian culture, but because it was incompatible with Christian faith. Thus, together with biblical declarations, the teaching of the Fathers on this issue formed the tradition of the Church that taught that priestly ordination was reserved to men. Throughout medieval times and even up until the present day, this teaching has not changed.
Further, in 1994 Pope John Paul II formally declared that the Church does not have the power to ordain women. He stated, "Although the teaching that priestly ordination is to be reserved to men alone has been preserved by the constant and universal tradition of the Church and firmly taught by the magisterium in its more recent documents, at the present time in some places it is nonetheless considered still open to debate, or the Churchs judgment that women are not to be admitted to ordination is considered to have a merely disciplinary force. Wherefore, in order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, a matter which pertains to the Churchs divine constitution itself, in virtue of my ministry of confirming the brethren (cf. Luke 22:32) I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Churchs faithful" (OrdinatioSacerdotalis 4).
Form your own religion or join one who follows your beliefs. The Catholic church rules are not yours.
As always, interesting post...
It should be noted that the priesthood of the Christian faithful is enjoyed by all baptized Christians, male and female alike.
Thanks, that was a complete and thorough response!
Thanks, that was a complete and thorough response!
Priests aren't allowed to marry anywhere, never have been, now or then, East or West. But married men can be ordained priests per the Eastern Churches. No problems there. It may seem confusing but here's the thing: you can be a married man and become a priest. You can't be ordained a priest first, and then get married.
Women priests? No, and not ever. Even if the Pope lost his mind and started ordaining women in the Sistine Chapel with the oooh-mystical sound of chanting all around and readings from the Book of Neuteronomy: no. It's not that it's not "allowed," it's that it's not "possible." In fact, that's how we'd know the Pope had lost his mind! -- or better, had been kidnapped and replaced by a somebody from the planet Erehwon -- right over there to the left of Kolob :o).
It's not something to do with the job description: women can certainly "do" preaching, praying, parish administration, whatever. It has to do with "being" --- that is, with the embodied sign. Whiuch is the very substance of a Sacrament (not a function, a sign: I can't say that enough.)
Mo' later, I don't have time to do essay-form right now...
but think: does sex (being created male or female) have embodied meaning? Yes. And in two sacraments that makes a difference. The first is Matrimony: has to be a man and a woman because they "mean" the goodness of God's creating us male and female: in some mysterious way:
"So God created man in His own image,
in the image of God created He him;
male and female created He them."
And the other Sacrament where embodied sex counts, is Holy Orders. Because the priest is not just doing the work of Christ, he is an embodied sign of Christ.
It's the "embodied sign" thing. Not the job description.
Bye for now!!
Thanks for this great post! I am going to copy it to my Word program, bump it up to font size 22, and read it a second time carefully!
And those same folks who have pushed for ordination for women for so many years, have now glommed on to the homosexual marriage movement, and have it in their heads that it is an injustice for the Church NOT to allow them to marry.
Hubris, pure and simple.
That is a hoot and is typical in all churches. God “called” her??? I think she got her lines crossed.
With the dilineation/guideline that if their wife dies, they then cannot remarry and must remain celibate.
There are more and more Anglican priests coming to the Catholic Church; I believe we have two or three in our diocese. I went to the ordination of one (along with eight other men) and his wife and grown children were there with him.
Abortions, feminism and homosexuality all have the same goal in mind: to destroy all differences between men and women.
(And they may be glowing for a long, long, long time!!!)
(I hope not!!! I hope they "see the light".)
You raise interesting issues.
With regard to women's ordination, of course, the Church teaches that you can say the words of ordination over a woman, and just nothing will happen. You don't have proper matter, you need a baptized man, not a woman.
With regard to permitting the already-ordained to marry, the Church does permit men previously ordained to marry, and they are validly married. It actually happens. Of course, the Church requires laicization first, but even the loss of the clerical state does not undo the ontological effects of ordination. The man, though having rejoined the laity, is still a priest, even if he may not licitly call himself one anymore.
Yet, I think that the mind of the Church is not that this is like the discipline of not permitting married men generally to become priests.
There are others who could better speak to the theology involved with this, but I think that what the Church is saying is that the discipline of ordaining only celibate men is a good one, but not an absolute moral necessity, while the practice of barring clerics from marrying post-ordination is a matter of moral necessity, even if it is not a matter of ontological impossibility.
So, although it might be that a cleric might validly marry, it would be like a man who steals or commits adultery. It's possible, but intrinsically evil.
I mean, um, sister.
I mean --- smash the gender binary ---SIBLING!!
“We get too focused on man-made and church-made rules and forget to be like Jesus, do like Jesus.”
Jesus ordained ONLY men. That’s what we do.
Excellent discussion, sitetest. The distinction between what is “allowed or not allowed” and what is “possible or impossible” is often lost.
I looked up the original Youtube video this was based on --- "Call Me Maybe" by Carly Rae Jepsen (Link) --- and OK, this is a spoiler--- after this girl tries so hard to catch this guy, and it looks like he's taking an interest and young lust is a-startin' to heat up nicely, the guy of her dreammmmmssss starts puttin the move on somebody else in Carly Rae's band! ---(sob) --- another GUY!
Oh, Heat-loss and Heartbreak!
And it illustrates just what we've been saying, in an ironic way: there's a difference between male and female. There's supposed to be! And when you kick over the traces and do the gender-erases, all manner of absurdity ensues. Oh, Dang and Heart-Pang!
Poor Carly Rae.
And these poor girls, fed such a line of !@$#@ by the Women's Ordination Conference.
I have a new theory that I think explains some otherwise confusing elements in our society's approach to the relations of the sexes.
Imagine you're a young man. You have a powerful sexual urge. You want a sex-partner who is as eager to engage in sex acts as you are. You want the partner to have a firm, muscular body. You don't want the partner to expect an exclusive sexual relationship, whether temporary or permanent. You don't want the partner to have tiresome emotional complications, or to expect attention when you'd rather watch sports, play video games, or drink beer with your friends. You don't want the partner to produce consequences, such as babies. to put it bluntly, you just want to ejaculate.
Doesn't this sound like "you," our modern young American man, really want ANOTHER GUY, not one of those *shudder* women?
“The church could, in theory, permit priests to marry as in the Eastern Orthodox churches (although I understand why they do not).”
To clarify this somewhat further....
The Eastern Orthodox allow a married man to become a priest. But once he has become a priest he is not allowed to marry. If he becomes a priest as a single man he can never marry. If his wife dies he can never marry again.
The Western Catholic church, in general, does not allow a married man to become a priest, though it could and indeed does in some cases, and without scandal. Most noteably when it receives a man into the priesthood that is a priest in another faith. This is most prominently happening with the influx of Anglican/Episcopal priests and parishes into the Catholic church via the new Ordinariate.
So the upshot is, in neither east or west can a priest marry but both allow a married man to become a priest, in the east this is the norm, in the west it is the rare exception.
You need to study Scripture, all of it, carefully.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a WINNAH!!
You are exactly right. For a man (a certain kind of man, for convenience we'll call him a triflin' Leftist man, but hey, could be secular white Right or even Libertarian!) the ideal lust object being another MAN (or boy, they're smoother and tauter) --- and any lingering repugnance over unseemly contact with the solid waste system is quickly overcome by the consideration that no surprise offspring will ensue, and no intricate emotional entanglements. In short, no baby and no baggage.
And here's an ever sadder thing: Germain Greer was saying something LIKE this 40+ years ago in "The Female Eunuch"--- oddly, though: forever getting it smack-right, and then instantly reversing and upending herself.
She used to say that the hellacious thing about gender stereotyping is, not that gay men are expected to be feminized like women, but that women are expected to be eunuchs like gay men.
Greer used to say that men (here again, she means trifling Leftist men, the only kind she knew) hate women, though the (Leftist) women do not realize this and are taught to hate themselves.
At one point she yells, "Im sick of being a transvestite. I refuse to be a female impersonator. I am a woman, not a castrate!
Then she goes on to idiotically recommend that all women become female nullos anyway, no functional attachment-feelings, no really functional attachment-parts, all their fertility and feelings disabled---
I mean, how is a contracepting or sterilized woman so much different from a F2M Trannie? Basically your systems have been knocked out, hormonally and/or surgically doctored, neutered, "fixed."
All that's left is artifice. You may was well be an android.
I think you're exactly right, it's ultimately a push to destroy "male and female created He them." To erode the idea that we have created natures; that anything or anybody has a created nature. You might like the following:
Somebody else has always thought of things before I did! Not that that’s bad or anything ...
A lot of data fit this paradigm. There’s the idea that all women, even married ones innocently shopping at Walmart, are on a sexual display like men in a San Francisco “pride” parade. There’s the lack of criticism of a sexually immoral woman, UNTIL she’s pregnant or has a child: she goes from “hottie” to “slut” if she steps out of the role of no-consequences sexual outlet. There’s the ever-more-open favoring of sodomitic sex acts, even among men who consider themselves heterosexual, along with the disparagement of natural women’s bodies of all descriptions. There’s the expectation that women, even casual acquaintances, should comfortably, with men, view lewd pictures or participate in lewd conversation.
Random point: We were listening to a rock station on satellite radio last night while I was driving some kids to a Scout meeting, and the announcer starting talking about his penis! After quickly changing the station (”Not BLUEGRASS!”) I observed that the speaker was either homosexual or at the maturity level of a newly potty-trained 3-year-old.
I know some sane and loving, lovable, intelligent, intelligible men and women. I do. I have to say that right now.
The vulgarity and rutty-nuttiness isn't everywhere, all the time. I know that for a fact.
“Doesn't this sound like ‘you,’ our modern young American man, really want ANOTHER GUY, not one of those *shudder* women?”
That's one of the themes of Updike's The Rumor.
I used to have a photograph of two devices sitting next to each other. One had an on-off switch. It was labeled, “man.” The other had many switches, dials and controls. It was labeled, “woman.”
Men ARE easier.
But this man thinks the ladies are infinitely more fun.
So do I. In fact, in my real life, such as it is, practically everyone seems to be an actual human being, and treats others the same way.
However, the observations behind my posts are drawn largely from comments on Free Republic, so it's not as if this phenomenon is limited to liberal twerps. I often retreat to the kitchen shaking my head, saying, "Who ARE these people?" and then I wonder if the people in real life are really like this, too, and I'm just too ditzy to realize it!
Everything I think of, someone already did ...
I've seen that picture. It's always seemed to me to imply that the "Man" version is right and the "Woman" version is wrong, but that could just be my midlife crisis speaking. (That's also why I'm listening to the hard rock station on the radio ... some weird hormonal thing that makes me like the same music as a 16-year-old boy.)
11 A woman[a] should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man;[b] she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15 But women[c] will be saved through childbearingif they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.The role of the priest is to teach and to have authority over those of his parish.
Indeed. It seems like something done by the Zucker Brothers(Airplane!, Top Secret!, etc.)
January 8, 2013 7:14 PM Carl Vehse said... Another hit single by the Antichristettes: Mr. Pope-man (to the tune of Mr. Sandman):
Mr. Pope-man, bring me a dream;
Make me a priestess like youve never seen.
Give me a stole and chasuble vestures,
And let me do those sacerdotal gestures.
Pope-man, its so unfair,
St. Pauls epistles males only declare.
Change this with a papal bull;
Mr. Pope-man, give girls priest rule.
Mr. Pope-man, bring me a dream;
Make me a priestess like youve never seen.
A mitre to wear its really no big deal;
Then someday Ill need papal shoes in high heel.
Pope-man, Im so alone,
No female cleric to call my own.
Please contrive a pontiff scheme;
Mr. Pope-man, give gals their dream.
Mr. Pope-man, bring me a dream;
Let women clergy be part of the team.
Youll soon have girlish bishops and vicars
(And maybe GLBT priests in knickers).
Mr. Pope-man, a crozier to hold
Would be so peachy before Im too old.
So change Gods Word with your decrees
Mr. Pope-man, ordain,
Please, please, ordain,
Mr. Pope-man, ordain girls priests.