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To: HarleyD; Daffy
"I would agree with the exception that I don't believe this is just an America phenomenon. This is happening on a global scale with places like Africa, Indonesia, Europe, Asia, etc all in decline of moral values, and the hostility towards God and Christianity growing more each day. There clearly is a hardening of the heart and we must attribute this to God withdrawing His hand of grace."

Certainly you are right, this is a worldwide phenomena. And, you have brought the discussion to a critical point. Are these kind of events the result of, "...God withdrawing His hand of grace." and then man backfilling with a rebellion/disobedience of his own design or are these events the result of, "...God withdrawing His hand of grace" and then God sending a deluding influence to bring about the decay and destruction. These are two distinct positions and I, perhaps wrongly, sensed that Daffy's video was leaning toward the first (with a new cast of players).

While it may be tempting to say "both", the law of the excluded middle eliminates this is as a possibility. Either God is managing all of His universe (and all events) or there are wills taking over where His leaves off. Irrespective of appearances, I believe the Scriptures are clear which way it is.

Schaeffer, although Reformed in name, often (the way many intellectuals do) leaves his reader/listener with the impression that many nearly co-equal forces are at work in the universe. Perhaps it is my jealous inferiority speaking, but my experience is that intellectuals tend to elevate their influence beyond that which the Scripture allows. If the king's heart is turned by God like channels of water and every throw of the dice is determined by God, our Gospel likely ought to include a repeated diminishment of man and his ego.

To some extent this is issue is different than whether we are approaching the end of time. On that point, I believe you are correct...and God is effecting every nuance.

14 posted on 01/08/2013 3:30:37 PM PST by Dutchboy88
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To: Dutchboy88; Daffy
Are these kind of events the result of, "...God withdrawing His hand of grace." and then man backfilling with a rebellion/disobedience of his own design or are these events the result of, "...God withdrawing His hand of grace" and then God sending a deluding influence to bring about the decay and destruction.

Hmmmm...I've never thought about whether man backfills with a rebellious spirit or God is sending a deluding influence. Scripture shows that both are often the case. In the days of Noah God would no longer strive against man-clearly an indication of the first situation. But yet there are times when God influenced the situation such with Ahab or Pharoah. How God works is left to a divine mystery.

15 posted on 01/08/2013 3:42:30 PM PST by HarleyD
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